With only 9 swamps in the deck, I cant say I really like mutilate. Versus zombies and humans I'd rather just play rolling temblor, easier on the mana and flashback just make it seem better as well. Being able to cast it on the same turn after a Gilded Lotus seems good as well.
Mutilate has been really strong actually. You only need 2 swamps to do what temblor does, which is very easy to obtain, and you kill aristocrat and Lol troll. You get 3 or 4 and it's very strong against G/W.
I'm cutting Thragtusk to the board I think for Forbidden Alchemy, the deck needs more draw smoothing.
I'll let you all know how it goes tomorrow, but I'm happy with the manabase and its ability to support the spells I want to cast, and I'm happy with the decision to add Forbidden Alchemy while upping the combo count to 3 of each. This should ensure my early hand is not clogged with multiple pieces but I can still find the combo fairly quickly, and stall long enough with my early game of Pillars, Snaps Huntmasters and Nighthawks.
I see that your not running the tutors anymore, I suppose with alchemy you don't really need it but wasn't that the original point of going black? if you are playing black just for mutilate and lifegain via nighthawk. I feel like it might be better to go white instead, you get terminus, supreme verdict, and centaur healer. That being said having Duress, Slaughter Games, and Rakdos Return in your board seems very powerful and forbidden alchemy is a good call. Either way, best of luck at states!
I see that your not running the tutors anymore, I suppose with alchemy you don't really need it but wasn't that the original point of going black? if you are playing black just for mutilate and lifegain via nighthawk. I feel like it might be better to go white instead, you get terminus, supreme verdict, and centaur healer. That being said having Duress, Slaughter Games, and Rakdos Return in your board seems very powerful and forbidden alchemy is a good call. Either way, best of luck at states!
No, black was for slaughter games first and foremost.
I may add a white splash for the healer, oring/sphere, verdict, sphinx's revelation, and resto angel.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Have you tested Mercurial Chemister in this deck? Not sure if it's more efficient than other win cons but seems like a decent outlet for infinite mana. The list is already running Draco-Genius so I'm not sure if adding him would be worth anything.
Okay, I really want to play this deck but I'm trying to figure out how to get multiple combos going without having to have 2 Deadeyes on the battlefield at the same time.
For example. One multi combo would be to pair with Zealous Conscripts to gain control of Gilded Lotus and make infinite mana.
After that, I somehow want to pair Deadeye with my Acidic Slime (assuming it's also on the battlefield) to destroy all their land.
To do that, would I have to, instead of blinking the Conscript (which I did to make the mana with the lotus) blink the Deadeye, and then upon return, pair with the Slime? And the Slime gains this ability and can then blink itself out as many times as it needs to destroy all lands.
Then I could blink the Deadeye again and pair with something else I had out or just finish with a huge Fireball or something.
I'm thinking that's how it works, but I just want to make sure before I go try to do something that doesn't work. But Conscripts is the key to get the infinite mana, correct?
I ran into Deadeye/Zealous Conscripts/Lotus deck yesterday at PA States. I’m not sure how my opponent did overall but the deck certainly took me off guard. I ended up losing the match to my opponent but feel as if I would do much better now that I have experience playing against the combo.
It was the most unique deck I faced all day and I thought a lot about its strengths and weaknesses. Would this deck be better as straight Izzet? I feel like the green was almost exclusively for ramp/mana fixing and I feel as if it might be a little better to lean a little heavier on the side of control to not only protect your combo, but to manage early threats better.
Izzet is probably a better choice for a control build of this deck, The main problem is without a good deal of ideal counter magic, card filter or cantrips, control isnt doing too good right now. Midrange is probably the more ideal choice and Green has a better range of midrange creatures compared to other colours (Thragtusk, Huntsmaster, etc) hence why its being used in most of the builds.
I've tried izzet. It looses to much. The deck just folds to aggro then, you simply can't win against RB or zombies. Huntmaster and thragtusk both basically stabilize you against those decks, alone. Jace does too, although to a lesser degree.
I'm currently running something similar to Lashkor's original RUG build, with differences due to budgetary constraints (Jace's and Huntsmaster are too expensive in my area and I'm currently low on money) And can say that the deck can pack a hefty punch in a midrange game long enough to either stall to the combo or just cyclonic rift and swing for a win. The way I see the deck in its RUG form is something akin to how Pod was last format. The deck is built around a the combo, but it can win without the combo cause it can play out as just straight up RUG midrange.
Yeah, this is it in a nutshell. Conscripts wins as many games as the combo. Deadeye and conscripts without lotus, and deadeye+snappy, deadeye+huntmaster, or deadeye+thragtusk will all win the game, without the need for any additional mana.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Well, I didn't win States. I ended up losing first to U/W Aggro, which I won game 1, flooded out game 2 and couldn't draw enough removal game 3. It's a game I feel like I shouldn't have lost, because Mutilate and Pillar were awesome in game 1, it was just frustrating to lose to it.
The second loss was to U/W control, where my opponent mulled to 4, and I flooded out just long enough for him to miracle 2 terminuses in a row to steal the game. At the end I had about 15 lands in play after casting Forbidden Alchemy 8 times. Very sad.
I lost the second game to what I consider a misplay on my part. My opponent was at 8 and I had lethal on board. I had Duressed/Snapcaster duressed a Jace and a Tamiyo out of his hand and knew he had land/Angel of Serenity/Dissipate.
I cast Slaughter Games for Angel to maintain lethal, passed the turn, and he played his land, and cast Sphinxes Revelation for 4 on my attack step.
Later I was able to assemble the combo, but couldn't cast it because he still had dissipate and had drawn a ton of cards. I'm not sure if I would have died to Angel sooner, but I feel like my opponent just drew better in both games 1 and 2. These things happen.
I feel the deck will be very strong come Gatecrash, and I think control is very popular right now. Because of this, if I were to keep playing it I'd run it in a grindy Grixis control shell, because Grixis typically beats other control decks without folding to aggro. Were I to play the RUG build I'd want to fit in Tracker's Instincts to find the combo, and Cavern of Souls to protect it. Being able to force through a conscripts on a Tamiyo who's about to ult is important, and often if they dont have anything worth taking they won't counter conscripts, allowing you to windmill slam cavern and cast deadeye to win.
You're missing Gilded Lotus. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about desperate ravings, you're probably better off running Tibalt if that's your plan, because either way you'll end up randomly discarding combo pieces at some point or another, but at least you'll get value out of Tibalt against control. In fact, I'd probably put him down as a 4 of in the board against control anyway.
Perhaps I need to look into that...
Anyway, I feel that given that midrange is strong and fewer people are running Cavern, counterspells are good enough to maindeck. I don't see enough card draw to support Liliana of the Veil, and I've been itching to fit Underworld Connections into a standard list.
I think Rakdos Keyrune goes into the list against midrange since farseek is getting cut and it's an allstar against Thragtusk anyway. The only other thing I'd be concerned about it that Geist of Saint Traft basically punches your deck in the nuts, which is why I was testing Mutilate, because U/W aggro won the TCG last week. I think Tribute to Hunger is needed to combat that, or at least Evil Twin/Clone in the board.
Hmm, has anyone tried both a BRU and RUG list and have results? Both look like they have possibilities. I'm thinking of building one of these so if anyone has anymore decklists, especially if you did well at states, I'd like to see it.
I'm going to be playing the RUG list tomorrow at a local tournament. I'll post how I do. I'm running a pretty stock list except I added two Cavern of Souls.
I'm going to be playing the RUG list tomorrow at a local tournament. I'll post how I do. I'm running a pretty stock list except I added two Cavern of Souls.
This might not be the wisest idea. I've tuned the deck a huge amount since then. The RUG list looks completely different than that in the OP, and the RUGw list probably works better.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
so Zealous Conscripts is bound to Deadeye Navigator. you exile zealous it and deadeye lose the the ability dead eye give them since you no longer control both. zealous etb to untap Gilded Lotus but doesn't get the ability back since its considered a different creature so you can't go infanite like that... i guess you could blink the deadeye then blink zealous when dead eye's ability is on the stack you get your untap then deadeye blinks to get their abilities back but that costs 4 mana and you only get 3 from the lotus... could someone tell me exactly how this combo is supposed to work exactly? i can't see it.
so Zealous Conscripts is bound to Deadeye Navigator. you exile zealous it and deadeye lose the the ability dead eye give them since you no longer control both. zealous etb to untap Gilded Lotus but doesn't get the ability back since its considered a different creature so you can't go infanite like that... i guess you could blink the deadeye then blink zealous when dead eye's ability is on the stack you get your untap then deadeye blinks to get their abilities back but that costs 4 mana and you only get 3 from the lotus... could someone tell me exactly how this combo is supposed to work exactly? i can't see it.
have out ZC (Zealous Conscripts) soul bonded to DN (Deadeye Navigator). tap GL (Gilded Lotus) add 3 blue mana. use 2 blue mana using DN ability on ZC. ZC enters battlefield target GL and DN triggers soul bond with ZC.
now you have the previous board state plus one blue mana. rinse and repeat for infinite mana of all colors. With all this mana you can proceed to use DN ability on ZC to take all your opponents permanents that can be targeted.
My opponent had a Champion of Lambholt and when I took it, I essentially blinked my ZC infinite times to give Champion infinite counters and swing infinite lethal.
The best though is holding Door to Nothingness and then you combo off. With infinite each color mana, you play door, blink ZC to untap it, then proceed to "door" them lol.
The best though is holding Door to Nothingness and then you combo off. With infinite each color mana, you play door, blink ZC to untap it, then proceed to "door" them lol.
been there, done that. It isn't as good as ulting your opponent's planeswalker against them. That just feels so cruel.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Ended up only losing once all tournament and it was to BG Zombies. Played a few games afterwards and did a lot better. Overall was pretty happy with the deck but have a few changes I'd make for the next tournament. Here is the list I played.
The Forbidden Alchemys were played since my Jaces didn't arrive in time but were excellent all throughout the tournament. I would have played a fourth Hinterland Harbor if I could have found one. Going forward I would also change one Mizzium Mortar for a second Cyclonic Rift.
This might not be the wisest idea. I've tuned the deck a huge amount since then. The RUG list looks completely different than that in the OP, and the RUGw list probably works better.
have out ZC (Zealous Conscripts) soul bonded to DN (Deadeye Navigator). tap GL (Gilded Lotus) add 3 blue mana. use 2 blue mana using DN ability on ZC. ZC enters battlefield target GL and DN triggers soul bond with ZC.
now you have the previous board state plus one blue mana. rinse and repeat for infinite mana of all colors. With all this mana you can proceed to use DN ability on ZC to take all your opponents permanents that can be targeted.
.
but the zealos is no longer soul bound to DN since it left and came back (just like if you blink it or o-ring it then destroy the o-ring) unless I'm misreading one of these cards you dont get the ability back. so you can't bounce it again so that isn't the same board state.
the only way you can have it be the same board state is to use DN's ability then with that on the stack use the one it gave to ZC to blink but that costs more mana then you get from the lotus it just doesn't seem to work like your saying. what am i misreading, or does this combo simply not work.
but the zealos is no longer soul bound to DN since it left and came back (just like if you blink it or o-ring it then destroy the o-ring) unless I'm misreading one of these cards you dont get the ability back. so you can't bounce it again so that isn't the same board state.
the only way you can have it be the same board state is to use DN's ability then with that on the stack use the one it gave to ZC to blink but that costs more mana then you get from the lotus it just doesn't seem to work like your saying. what am i misreading, or does this combo simply not work.
When the ZC leaves the battlefield and then reenters, you can bind it again.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
When the Zealous Conscripts comes into play the Deadeye Navigator isn't bonded with around creature so they can bond again. Soulbond triggers even when creatures without Soulbound enter the battlefield.
I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?
When Aegis Angel is born?
When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
When Faerie Imposter busts in?
When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
When Malfegor shows up?
Seems like quick aggro will be hard for that deck unless you can miracle a timely Bonfire of the Damned. What matchups do you feel the white splash helps in? What do you bring the Detention Spheres in against?
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Mutilate has been really strong actually. You only need 2 swamps to do what temblor does, which is very easy to obtain, and you kill aristocrat and Lol troll. You get 3 or 4 and it's very strong against G/W.
I'm cutting Thragtusk to the board I think for Forbidden Alchemy, the deck needs more draw smoothing.
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Woodland Cemetary
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Steam Vents
4 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Deadeye Navigator
3 Zealous Conscripts
4 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
3 Mutilate
4 Farseek
4 Pillar of Flame
3 Gilded Lotus
SB:
4 Duress
3 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos Return
3 Thragtusk
3 Cyclonic Rift
I'll let you all know how it goes tomorrow, but I'm happy with the manabase and its ability to support the spells I want to cast, and I'm happy with the decision to add Forbidden Alchemy while upping the combo count to 3 of each. This should ensure my early hand is not clogged with multiple pieces but I can still find the combo fairly quickly, and stall long enough with my early game of Pillars, Snaps Huntmasters and Nighthawks.
Good luck to all!
No, black was for slaughter games first and foremost.
I may add a white splash for the healer, oring/sphere, verdict, sphinx's revelation, and resto angel.
For example. One multi combo would be to pair with Zealous Conscripts to gain control of Gilded Lotus and make infinite mana.
After that, I somehow want to pair Deadeye with my Acidic Slime (assuming it's also on the battlefield) to destroy all their land.
To do that, would I have to, instead of blinking the Conscript (which I did to make the mana with the lotus) blink the Deadeye, and then upon return, pair with the Slime? And the Slime gains this ability and can then blink itself out as many times as it needs to destroy all lands.
Then I could blink the Deadeye again and pair with something else I had out or just finish with a huge Fireball or something.
I'm thinking that's how it works, but I just want to make sure before I go try to do something that doesn't work. But Conscripts is the key to get the infinite mana, correct?
Regardless of why I want to do it, does the above work?
It was the most unique deck I faced all day and I thought a lot about its strengths and weaknesses. Would this deck be better as straight Izzet? I feel like the green was almost exclusively for ramp/mana fixing and I feel as if it might be a little better to lean a little heavier on the side of control to not only protect your combo, but to manage early threats better.
I've tried izzet. It looses to much. The deck just folds to aggro then, you simply can't win against RB or zombies. Huntmaster and thragtusk both basically stabilize you against those decks, alone. Jace does too, although to a lesser degree.
Yeah, this is it in a nutshell. Conscripts wins as many games as the combo. Deadeye and conscripts without lotus, and deadeye+snappy, deadeye+huntmaster, or deadeye+thragtusk will all win the game, without the need for any additional mana.
The second loss was to U/W control, where my opponent mulled to 4, and I flooded out just long enough for him to miracle 2 terminuses in a row to steal the game. At the end I had about 15 lands in play after casting Forbidden Alchemy 8 times. Very sad.
I lost the second game to what I consider a misplay on my part. My opponent was at 8 and I had lethal on board. I had Duressed/Snapcaster duressed a Jace and a Tamiyo out of his hand and knew he had land/Angel of Serenity/Dissipate.
I cast Slaughter Games for Angel to maintain lethal, passed the turn, and he played his land, and cast Sphinxes Revelation for 4 on my attack step.
Later I was able to assemble the combo, but couldn't cast it because he still had dissipate and had drawn a ton of cards. I'm not sure if I would have died to Angel sooner, but I feel like my opponent just drew better in both games 1 and 2. These things happen.
I feel the deck will be very strong come Gatecrash, and I think control is very popular right now. Because of this, if I were to keep playing it I'd run it in a grindy Grixis control shell, because Grixis typically beats other control decks without folding to aggro. Were I to play the RUG build I'd want to fit in Tracker's Instincts to find the combo, and Cavern of Souls to protect it. Being able to force through a conscripts on a Tamiyo who's about to ult is important, and often if they dont have anything worth taking they won't counter conscripts, allowing you to windmill slam cavern and cast deadeye to win.
Just some thoughts I picked up on.
You're missing Gilded Lotus. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about desperate ravings, you're probably better off running Tibalt if that's your plan, because either way you'll end up randomly discarding combo pieces at some point or another, but at least you'll get value out of Tibalt against control. In fact, I'd probably put him down as a 4 of in the board against control anyway.
Perhaps I need to look into that...
Anyway, I feel that given that midrange is strong and fewer people are running Cavern, counterspells are good enough to maindeck. I don't see enough card draw to support Liliana of the Veil, and I've been itching to fit Underworld Connections into a standard list.
I think Rakdos Keyrune goes into the list against midrange since farseek is getting cut and it's an allstar against Thragtusk anyway. The only other thing I'd be concerned about it that Geist of Saint Traft basically punches your deck in the nuts, which is why I was testing Mutilate, because U/W aggro won the TCG last week. I think Tribute to Hunger is needed to combat that, or at least Evil Twin/Clone in the board.
This might not be the wisest idea. I've tuned the deck a huge amount since then. The RUG list looks completely different than that in the OP, and the RUGw list probably works better.
have out ZC (Zealous Conscripts) soul bonded to DN (Deadeye Navigator). tap GL (Gilded Lotus) add 3 blue mana. use 2 blue mana using DN ability on ZC. ZC enters battlefield target GL and DN triggers soul bond with ZC.
now you have the previous board state plus one blue mana. rinse and repeat for infinite mana of all colors. With all this mana you can proceed to use DN ability on ZC to take all your opponents permanents that can be targeted.
My opponent had a Champion of Lambholt and when I took it, I essentially blinked my ZC infinite times to give Champion infinite counters and swing infinite lethal.
The best though is holding Door to Nothingness and then you combo off. With infinite each color mana, you play door, blink ZC to untap it, then proceed to "door" them lol.
been there, done that. It isn't as good as ulting your opponent's planeswalker against them. That just feels so cruel.
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Zealous Conscripts
4 Deadeye Navigator
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Artifacts 4
4 Gilded Lotus
Instants 5
4 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Cyclonic Rift
4 Farseek
4 Pillar of Flame
2 Mizzium Mortars
Land 24
4 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Hinterland Harbor
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
The Forbidden Alchemys were played since my Jaces didn't arrive in time but were excellent all throughout the tournament. I would have played a fourth Hinterland Harbor if I could have found one. Going forward I would also change one Mizzium Mortar for a second Cyclonic Rift.
Can you post the RUGw list?
Edit: I might want to add a single Devil's Play.
but the zealos is no longer soul bound to DN since it left and came back (just like if you blink it or o-ring it then destroy the o-ring) unless I'm misreading one of these cards you dont get the ability back. so you can't bounce it again so that isn't the same board state.
the only way you can have it be the same board state is to use DN's ability then with that on the stack use the one it gave to ZC to blink but that costs more mana then you get from the lotus it just doesn't seem to work like your saying. what am i misreading, or does this combo simply not work.
When the ZC leaves the battlefield and then reenters, you can bind it again.
4 Gilded Lotus
4 Deadeye Navigator
4 Zealous Conscripts
creatures
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Restoration Angel
2 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
instants
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Cyclonic Rift
Sorceries
2 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Farseek
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
4 Steam Vents
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Rootbound Crag
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Plains
4 Forest
2 Island
3 Mountain
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Thragtusk
3 Naturalize
4 Detention Sphere
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Supreme Verdict
SB probably needs more pillar of flame, and the RUG list I currently run has more removal, a lot more.