Can we try to make a somewhat comprehensive list of what "should" come out against certain matchups in regards to SB? I always feel sideboarding in is a lot easier than siderboarding out, so this would definitely be helpful to me as well as to others i'm sure. Although I know sometimes these choices are purely subjective and circumstantial.
Rather than just a "side board list", we should make a list for each matchup that talks about cards that are strong and weak in said matchup. I find this more useful, as boards and choices vary from player to player, and from matchup to matchup.
Rather than just a "side board list", we should make a list for each matchup that talks about cards that are strong and weak in said matchup. I find this more useful, as boards and choices vary from player to player, and from matchup to matchup.
Rather than just a "side board list", we should make a list for each matchup that talks about cards that are strong and weak in said matchup. I find this more useful, as boards and choices vary from player to player, and from matchup to matchup.
I would say against White based control or midrange (so Esper, Bant, UWR), I've been siding out 3 Mulch and 2 Unburial Rites for starters... then 2 Arbor Elf (going down to 4 dorks) and you might have to squeak out 1-2 more cards somewhere. The Centaur Healer if you play them (but I dont), maybe a Troll or two, but those are good at applying pressure against control decks.
Against aggro I tend to take out Craterhoof Boar and all of the midrange stuff... Obzedat if you maindeck 1, maybe Resto Angel (although if you are playing the Centaur Healer version... maybe not). Maybe the one of Sever. Usually you are only bringing in 5 cards or so anyway so its not as hard of a sideboard plan. I tend to want to keep all the sideboard pieces though because aggro is a matchup where if you combo out early it's an auto-win. And you can combo with anything. Like, you could play turn 1 dork... turn 2 troll , turn 3 GS, turn 4 either discard the creature in your hand and flash back rites flipped via GS or vice versa. When you don't really have to worry about counters, you can go all in like this.
I would say against White based control or midrange (so Esper, Bant, UWR), I've been siding out 3 Mulch and 2 Unburial Rites for starters... then 2 Arbor Elf (going down to 4 dorks) and you might have to squeak out 1-2 more cards somewhere. The Centaur Healer if you play them (but I dont), maybe a Troll or two, but those are good at applying pressure against control decks.
Against aggro I tend to take out Craterhoof Boar and all of the midrange stuff... Obzedat if you maindeck 1, maybe Resto Angel (although if you are playing the Centaur Healer version... maybe not). Maybe the one of Sever. Usually you are only bringing in 5 cards or so anyway so its not as hard of a sideboard plan. I tend to want to keep all the sideboard pieces though because aggro is a matchup where if you combo out early it's an auto-win. And you can combo with anything. Like, you could play turn 1 dork... turn 2 troll , turn 3 GS, turn 4 either discard the creature in your hand and flash back rites flipped via GS or vice versa. When you don't really have to worry about counters, you can go all in like this.
I think taking out mulch would depend on your land count. In my 23 land list I don't go below a 4 count of a mixture of mulch/salvage.
generally, against aggro, I sb out 2 mulch and 1 grisley salvage for 3 abrupt decay. and 2 craterhoof and 1 angel of serenity for 2 centaur healer and 1 obzedat, ghost council
against the mirror I side out 1 lotleth troll and 2 arbor elf for 3 deathrite shaman. 3 lingering souls for 2 sever and 1 angel of serenity.
against Wxx midrange I side out 2 unburial rites, 3 lingering souls, 2 mulch, and 2 salvage for 2 sever, 2 slime, 2 obzedat, and 3 abrupt decay.
against esper I generally drop 2 angel of serenity for 2 obzedat. 2 unburial rites and a mulch for 3 acidic slime. deathrite usually comes in for mana dorks, but may go back out if they're heavy on RiP.
my sideboarding changes for each UWR list. Doesn't usually matter much though since we have such a strong matchup against that deck. I usually just bring in acidic slime to deal with assemble the legions.
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I've tested a little more the deck. More and more satisfied with that. The split between Troll and Healer is fine. I don't want to drop the Resto Angel, when Angel doesn't arrive, the interation with Thragtusk can really save you.
I'd like to hear your opinion about... Bant Auras. It's getting more and more success in my LGS and apart Abrupt Decay/Acidic Slime, is there any other thing that can be helpful against it?
If it's really bad, maybe some Devour Flesh. But it's a really bad matchup. Hope that your meta shifts to stomp it out which is likely as it's not fun to play against.
I have a question as well, is 1 Cavern of Souls "fine" or should it be more like two? Also, another question relevant to that, should we be playing 23 or 24/25 lands?
I have a question as well, is 1 Cavern of Souls "fine" or should it be more like two? Also, another question relevant to that, should we be playing 23 or 24/25 lands?
I run 1 cavern main (23 lands total) and 1 SB. Against control decks I take out my mana dorks and bring in the second Cavern to offset the loss of the dorks and increase the chance of getting fatties on the field.
UWR and Esper both run plenty of counters and if u can force through an early Slime or late Angel/Behemoth it can make a huge difference.
I also ended up dropping Gavony as 3 colorless with 23 land was a bit much, replaced it with a forest and kept the Cavern and Vault.
I have a question as well, is 1 Cavern of Souls "fine" or should it be more like two? Also, another question relevant to that, should we be playing 23 or 24/25 lands?
People seem to agree that you have 3 utility/colorless slots. The main options are Cavern, Vault of the Archangel, and Gavony Township. I've moved to 1 Cavern 2 Gavony 0 Vault for testing. If you're playing Lingering Souls you can just steal games with Gavony+ Souls. Vault has been too expensive for the lifegain to be good vs aggro, plus you have to draw it. The deathtouch wasn't especially impressive as our dudes are huge and Gavony makes your little guys trade anyway. It was okay, but I moved on. I'm at 24 lands because of the MTGO shuffler. Some people like 23. I have to mulligan a lot. 25 is probably too many, I would board out a land vs control if you bring in a 2nd Cavern from the board vs UWR/Esper.
How is everyone boarding for Jund? I used to take out Lingering Souls but have been leaving them in, they're pretty good with 2 Gavony and 2 Hoofs. I've been taking Healers and some mana Elfs out, maybe a Rites, for Slimes and Decays.
Took down yet another 8 Man, 2-0 sweep vs Jund, Jund, and Esper.
I've tested a little more the deck. More and more satisfied with that. The split between Troll and Healer is fine. I don't want to drop the Resto Angel, when Angel doesn't arrive, the interation with Thragtusk can really save you.
I'd like to hear your opinion about... Bant Auras. It's getting more and more success in my LGS and apart Abrupt Decay/Acidic Slime, is there any other thing that can be helpful against it?
You could also use Ray of Revelation. Being able to get 2 uses out of the one card to destroy their crucial enchantments can really help in the long run. It also helps against opponents playing Rest in Peace since you can cast Ray to destroy it even if the ray is in the 'yard.
How is everyone boarding for Jund? I used to take out Lingering Souls but have been leaving them in, they're pretty good with 2 Gavony and 2 Hoofs. I've been taking Healers and some mana Elfs out, maybe a Rites, for Slimes and Decays.
Took down yet another 8 Man, 2-0 sweep vs Jund, Jund, and Esper.
My instinct here is to take out all your maindeck aggro hate (Centaur Healer, Lotleth Troll, w/e), perhaps a few dorks if you have 1 Cavern in the side... and side in slimes and decays.
It's really kind of an instinct thing because you might be up against someone that is heavily hating on Junk (it's a pretty bad matchup for Jund) and you'd be best off just siding out Mulch and a few Rites and going more mid-range. But if they don't do that then your Reanimator plan against a Jund deck that doesn't board 6-8 cards against it is almost unbeatable.
Jund has answers... Slaughter Games, Deathrite Shaman (perhaps maindecked), Ground Seal (perhaps maindecked), Rakdos Charm, etc. The two common main deck answers are decay-able and not instant speed remove everything type answers. Slaughter Games only gets one card at a time. They can't hit both AoS and Rites with SG.
Yeah Slaughter Games is a pain. The first one usually always goes after Angel. That's why I like the Souls, and I often bring in an Obzedat to have more threats to win with. I do board out some Rites, but I like the Mulches to hit your 7-8 mana you'll need to play the midrange game.
Also I do like keeping in Troll. Regeneration is huge.
Yeah Slaughter Games is a pain. The first one usually always goes after Angel. That's why I like the Souls, and I often bring in an Obzedat to have more threats to win with. I do board out some Rites, but I like the Mulches to hit your 7-8 mana you'll need to play the midrange game.
To be honest... that's just my instinct and not anything I've uncovered through research/playtesting.
On a related note... if you need to sideboard out part of the combo knowing that you likely face graveyard hate, how do you guys do it? I've been doing -3 Mulch (out of 3) and -2 Unburial Rites (out of 4). It seems to me the question is whether to side out Mulch or Grisly Salvage. Mulch is easier to cast turn 2 and gets you out of those jams where you only have 1-2 land and a mana dork. In general lets you hit your 7th/8th land drops sooner. Grisly Salvage can get you out of those jams early because you can find a land, but only one at a time... but then midgame it can nab a Thragtusk from your deck for example.
It really depends on the deck. For example it's different vs Jund/Esper/Bant. If you're cutting mana dorks, I want Mulches. In grindy matchups like Jund, I want Salvages, but usually go from 4 to 3, and cut a couple Unburial Rites. Jund usually can't exile your graveyard so you have up to 8 ways to deal with Ground Seal, but they can't counter your spells, so just casting them is fine if you hit the land drops.
Vs RiP from control decks, I often cut most of my reanimation package and only bring in a few Abrupt Decays.
On a side note, I'm 8-1 in my last 3 8 man tournaments, only losing in the finals to Naya Blitz. I haven't played the mirror today out of 11 matches. A lot of Jund and Esper, if anyone is into the MTGO 8 man meta games...
Thoughts on Loxodon Smiters in the main over Centaur Healers? The higher P/T seems relevant and with the current Jund lists running Lili and Rakdos's Return, it could have some value there.
Also, any opinions on Trostani, Selesnya's Voice over Rhox Faithmender? Seems really nice with Resto bouncing Thrags for the 15 gain. The increased difficulty of cast however may be the biggest deterrent.
the main reason i pack Loxodon Smither is not vs lilianna of the veil or rakdos return. Rakdos return is already a pain in the ass except if you have a rite somewhere or a couple of creature you already want to discard. and having play the kibler hatebear in modern i can tell you that smither off a liliana is rare! (but still funny :P) and they only play 2 liliana at best.
nah, the main reason i play smither is vs aggro... you lose the 6 life form a turn 3 centaur healer + turn 4 restoration angel. but smither is basicly that much life... how many time have you play a healer turn 3 to hold those aggro decks only to see a searing spear? mono red lists run mizzium mortar but grull and naya blizt tend to play spear more. smither is also better vs midrange strategy that play healer and resto and it kill thragtusk tokens.
the casting cost of Trostani is what keep her from seeing play... i don't know your list but i prefer to not **** myself with mana when i play vs aggro. loxodon faithmender is a safe bet. it can hold aggro all alone. which is not the case of trostani.
recently my friend took one of my thragtusk... so i was missing 1 off them. just like anybody, i have seen the obzedat, ghost concil in the couple of winning lists recently. which made me think that if people can afford to pay for obzedat why not double dick HUM armada wurm... it's also a great target to reanimate and flicker. at the moment i'm playing 3 trag and 1 armada wurm. which is not ideal i confess, but it's better than people think. 2x5/5 trample is hard to deal with and its harder when you untap with resto in hand
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Kakwann, Lvl 39 Sorcerer
Currently Playing
Standard:GWRU 4C Collected Company Modern:GUWRB Bloom Titan Legacy:BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH : GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
Thoughts on Loxodon Smiters in the main over Centaur Healers? The higher P/T seems relevant and with the current Jund lists running Lili and Rakdos's Return, it could have some value there.
Also, any opinions on Trostani, Selesnya's Voice over Rhox Faithmender? Seems really nice with Resto bouncing Thrags for the 15 gain. The increased difficulty of cast however may be the biggest deterrent.
I've been watching Dzy from the MOCS championship stream, he played Smiters, Trostani, and Somberwald Sages MD. Also if you're Resto bouncing Thragtusk you probably don't need the Trostani at that point....
I may try Smiters. Healers aren't incredible, but I do play 2 Angels.
So I got redemption to an extent this tournament... 3rd tournament I've played with the deck. Went 3-1-1, and then lost in the first round of top 8 to the same Jank Naya list that beat me in the regular rounds. And 3 of the other guys I played (UWR, Esper, and some Spirit midrange deck) were also in the Top 8.
I felt a lot better about my play this week. Last week I was making misplays and punting games, this week I won two of my matches with some crazy trickeration. I just sacked up and bought 2 Obzedat for the deck and that card is a huge difference maker. It just has to be in your 75 somewhere.
But my losses to the same Naya deck... they were both kind of brutal. He was playing a version of the deck that maindecks 4 Boros Charm and then plays stuff like Silverblade Paladin, Rampager, Smiter to set up plays like swinging for 21 through a Thragtusk block.
From a guy who doesn't play Rites, I didn't much agree with where it was placed either.
Unfortunately there are too many people here who think that they know what's what and keep rushing to demote decks that shouldn't have been demoted.
I thought it was all the mods' fault at first but it became pretty clear that there's a vocal group of members who like to whine that X or Y deck doesn't deserve to be in certain forums. Leaves you with uncomfortable situations where decks like this one are spurring more discussion about how to beat it than any other deck, but yet it's not 'proven' enough. I think it's sad.
Why JunkReanimator is not in the PROVEN subforum??
why does it matter if it's in the proven subforum? This meta changes a lot. Seems like a lot to ask of the mods to constantly overhaul the subforums on a weekly basis simply because a deck regained popularity.
junk reanimator is very good, but it's not like it's the end all be all of the format. Jund midrange was in the same position junk is in right now a couple of weeks ago, now it's just getting beat out.
I've been watching Dzy from the MOCS championship stream, he played Smiters, Trostani, and Somberwald Sages MD. Also if you're Resto bouncing Thragtusk you probably don't need the Trostani at that point....
I may try Smiters. Healers aren't incredible, but I do play 2 Angels.
to an extent... I want to say that trostani is better if you're running more lotleth troll than centaur healer, however the heavy black requirement that lotleth puts on the the mana base puts holes in that scenario.
Personally I feel that you should just pick an early drop when playing this deck. Either lotleth troll or healer/smiter. It seems like so much of a strain on the mana base to run both.
Rather than just a "side board list", we should make a list for each matchup that talks about cards that are strong and weak in said matchup. I find this more useful, as boards and choices vary from player to player, and from matchup to matchup.
I would say against White based control or midrange (so Esper, Bant, UWR), I've been siding out 3 Mulch and 2 Unburial Rites for starters... then 2 Arbor Elf (going down to 4 dorks) and you might have to squeak out 1-2 more cards somewhere. The Centaur Healer if you play them (but I dont), maybe a Troll or two, but those are good at applying pressure against control decks.
Against aggro I tend to take out Craterhoof Boar and all of the midrange stuff... Obzedat if you maindeck 1, maybe Resto Angel (although if you are playing the Centaur Healer version... maybe not). Maybe the one of Sever. Usually you are only bringing in 5 cards or so anyway so its not as hard of a sideboard plan. I tend to want to keep all the sideboard pieces though because aggro is a matchup where if you combo out early it's an auto-win. And you can combo with anything. Like, you could play turn 1 dork... turn 2 troll , turn 3 GS, turn 4 either discard the creature in your hand and flash back rites flipped via GS or vice versa. When you don't really have to worry about counters, you can go all in like this.
I think taking out mulch would depend on your land count. In my 23 land list I don't go below a 4 count of a mixture of mulch/salvage.
My list:
2 cavern of souls
2 isolated chapel
4 temple garden
4 overgrown tomb
4 woodland cemetery
2 sunpetal grove
2 forest
1 gavony township
4 avacyn's pilgrim
2 arbor elf
4 lotleth troll
4 thragtusk
3 restoration angel
3 angel of serenity
2 craterhoof behemoth
4 mulch
4 unburial rites
3 lingering souls
3 deathrite shaman
2 obzedat, ghost council
2 acidic slime
2 sever the bloodline
2 centaur healer
3 abrupt decay
1 angel of serenity
generally, against aggro, I sb out 2 mulch and 1 grisley salvage for 3 abrupt decay. and 2 craterhoof and 1 angel of serenity for 2 centaur healer and 1 obzedat, ghost council
against the mirror I side out 1 lotleth troll and 2 arbor elf for 3 deathrite shaman. 3 lingering souls for 2 sever and 1 angel of serenity.
against Wxx midrange I side out 2 unburial rites, 3 lingering souls, 2 mulch, and 2 salvage for 2 sever, 2 slime, 2 obzedat, and 3 abrupt decay.
against esper I generally drop 2 angel of serenity for 2 obzedat. 2 unburial rites and a mulch for 3 acidic slime. deathrite usually comes in for mana dorks, but may go back out if they're heavy on RiP.
my sideboarding changes for each UWR list. Doesn't usually matter much though since we have such a strong matchup against that deck. I usually just bring in acidic slime to deal with assemble the legions.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
If it's really bad, maybe some Devour Flesh. But it's a really bad matchup. Hope that your meta shifts to stomp it out which is likely as it's not fun to play against.
I run 1 cavern main (23 lands total) and 1 SB. Against control decks I take out my mana dorks and bring in the second Cavern to offset the loss of the dorks and increase the chance of getting fatties on the field.
UWR and Esper both run plenty of counters and if u can force through an early Slime or late Angel/Behemoth it can make a huge difference.
I also ended up dropping Gavony as 3 colorless with 23 land was a bit much, replaced it with a forest and kept the Cavern and Vault.
People seem to agree that you have 3 utility/colorless slots. The main options are Cavern, Vault of the Archangel, and Gavony Township. I've moved to 1 Cavern 2 Gavony 0 Vault for testing. If you're playing Lingering Souls you can just steal games with Gavony+ Souls. Vault has been too expensive for the lifegain to be good vs aggro, plus you have to draw it. The deathtouch wasn't especially impressive as our dudes are huge and Gavony makes your little guys trade anyway. It was okay, but I moved on. I'm at 24 lands because of the MTGO shuffler. Some people like 23. I have to mulligan a lot. 25 is probably too many, I would board out a land vs control if you bring in a 2nd Cavern from the board vs UWR/Esper.
Took down yet another 8 Man, 2-0 sweep vs Jund, Jund, and Esper.
Im a BWr Zombies player and Junk Rites is pretty hard to deal with.
I splash Red for Falkenrath Aristocrat.
What is our best chance at battling with you?
What do you guys hate?
I usually side in two tormod's crypt, oblivion ring, vampire nighthawk, high priest of penance, liliana of the veil.
You could also use Ray of Revelation. Being able to get 2 uses out of the one card to destroy their crucial enchantments can really help in the long run. It also helps against opponents playing Rest in Peace since you can cast Ray to destroy it even if the ray is in the 'yard.
My instinct here is to take out all your maindeck aggro hate (Centaur Healer, Lotleth Troll, w/e), perhaps a few dorks if you have 1 Cavern in the side... and side in slimes and decays.
It's really kind of an instinct thing because you might be up against someone that is heavily hating on Junk (it's a pretty bad matchup for Jund) and you'd be best off just siding out Mulch and a few Rites and going more mid-range. But if they don't do that then your Reanimator plan against a Jund deck that doesn't board 6-8 cards against it is almost unbeatable.
Jund has answers... Slaughter Games, Deathrite Shaman (perhaps maindecked), Ground Seal (perhaps maindecked), Rakdos Charm, etc. The two common main deck answers are decay-able and not instant speed remove everything type answers. Slaughter Games only gets one card at a time. They can't hit both AoS and Rites with SG.
Also I do like keeping in Troll. Regeneration is huge.
To be honest... that's just my instinct and not anything I've uncovered through research/playtesting.
On a related note... if you need to sideboard out part of the combo knowing that you likely face graveyard hate, how do you guys do it? I've been doing -3 Mulch (out of 3) and -2 Unburial Rites (out of 4). It seems to me the question is whether to side out Mulch or Grisly Salvage. Mulch is easier to cast turn 2 and gets you out of those jams where you only have 1-2 land and a mana dork. In general lets you hit your 7th/8th land drops sooner. Grisly Salvage can get you out of those jams early because you can find a land, but only one at a time... but then midgame it can nab a Thragtusk from your deck for example.
Vs RiP from control decks, I often cut most of my reanimation package and only bring in a few Abrupt Decays.
On a side note, I'm 8-1 in my last 3 8 man tournaments, only losing in the finals to Naya Blitz. I haven't played the mirror today out of 11 matches. A lot of Jund and Esper, if anyone is into the MTGO 8 man meta games...
Also, any opinions on Trostani, Selesnya's Voice over Rhox Faithmender? Seems really nice with Resto bouncing Thrags for the 15 gain. The increased difficulty of cast however may be the biggest deterrent.
nah, the main reason i play smither is vs aggro... you lose the 6 life form a turn 3 centaur healer + turn 4 restoration angel. but smither is basicly that much life... how many time have you play a healer turn 3 to hold those aggro decks only to see a searing spear? mono red lists run mizzium mortar but grull and naya blizt tend to play spear more. smither is also better vs midrange strategy that play healer and resto and it kill thragtusk tokens.
the casting cost of Trostani is what keep her from seeing play... i don't know your list but i prefer to not **** myself with mana when i play vs aggro. loxodon faithmender is a safe bet. it can hold aggro all alone. which is not the case of trostani.
recently my friend took one of my thragtusk... so i was missing 1 off them. just like anybody, i have seen the obzedat, ghost concil in the couple of winning lists recently. which made me think that if people can afford to pay for obzedat why not double dick HUM armada wurm... it's also a great target to reanimate and flicker. at the moment i'm playing 3 trag and 1 armada wurm. which is not ideal i confess, but it's better than people think. 2x5/5 trample is hard to deal with and its harder when you untap with resto in hand
Standard: GWRU 4C Collected Company
Modern: GUWRB Bloom Titan
Legacy: BUG SHARDLESS BUG
EDH :
GR BORBORYGMOS ENRAGED
GU PRIME SPEAKER ZEGENA
UWR ZEDRUU THE GREATHEARTED
UBR MISHRA ARTIFICER PRODIGY
B SHEOLDRED WHISPERING ONE
R ASHLING THE PILGRIM
I've been watching Dzy from the MOCS championship stream, he played Smiters, Trostani, and Somberwald Sages MD. Also if you're Resto bouncing Thragtusk you probably don't need the Trostani at that point....
I may try Smiters. Healers aren't incredible, but I do play 2 Angels.
I felt a lot better about my play this week. Last week I was making misplays and punting games, this week I won two of my matches with some crazy trickeration. I just sacked up and bought 2 Obzedat for the deck and that card is a huge difference maker. It just has to be in your 75 somewhere.
But my losses to the same Naya deck... they were both kind of brutal. He was playing a version of the deck that maindecks 4 Boros Charm and then plays stuff like Silverblade Paladin, Rampager, Smiter to set up plays like swinging for 21 through a Thragtusk block.
Why JunkReanimator is not in the PROVEN subforum??
It basically just now gained the popularity it has right now. It doesn't have the staying power that the other decks have.
Mods are biased for whatever reason.
Unfortunately there are too many people here who think that they know what's what and keep rushing to demote decks that shouldn't have been demoted.
I thought it was all the mods' fault at first but it became pretty clear that there's a vocal group of members who like to whine that X or Y deck doesn't deserve to be in certain forums. Leaves you with uncomfortable situations where decks like this one are spurring more discussion about how to beat it than any other deck, but yet it's not 'proven' enough. I think it's sad.
why does it matter if it's in the proven subforum? This meta changes a lot. Seems like a lot to ask of the mods to constantly overhaul the subforums on a weekly basis simply because a deck regained popularity.
junk reanimator is very good, but it's not like it's the end all be all of the format. Jund midrange was in the same position junk is in right now a couple of weeks ago, now it's just getting beat out.
to an extent... I want to say that trostani is better if you're running more lotleth troll than centaur healer, however the heavy black requirement that lotleth puts on the the mana base puts holes in that scenario.
Personally I feel that you should just pick an early drop when playing this deck. Either lotleth troll or healer/smiter. It seems like so much of a strain on the mana base to run both.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema