Well, yeah. The deck is just much much better. I've played both versions and it's not particularly close. It's just much much better than the other version, largely because of how much better Mulch/Grisly Salvage are and because of how powerful Lotleth Troll is. Centaur Healer is not a very good card, and you shouldn't be playing it (it's actually just worse than Loxodon Smiter). Capitalizing on Restoration Angel synergies just makes your deck worse, and it's not worth it without the synergies.
You have to have very real reasons for not playing this version. I'm not even sure if I want to change a card in the 75.
I think I can appreciate basically taking out Resto Angel and some dorks and all of that cutesy stuff for Lotleth Troll, an extra land, Lingering Souls and a couple of 1-ofs.
Hmmm... I don't know if I'm going to look forward to shelling out the money for those cards, but after playing a few games against control where it felt like the only way I could win was to go over the top of them... maybe it's worth it. The list I played was a lot friendlier with the BW lands which I basically don't have any of.
I agree, though the videos he did on Jund zombies in legacy were a lot worse.
One problem with lotleth troll/lingering souls version is that it is very weak to rest in peace. Troll sometimes do a wonderful job, but sometimes you will get 2 or 3 trolls in hand and nothing to discard, and then they are most of the time awful.
pretty much this. I think lotleth troll and lingering souls are very powerful cards, but I think leaning on them too hard just leaves you too wide open to hate. You need to find a happy medium.
I went 5-1 losing only to esper control (and then beat the esper player in the top 8). I beat unexpected results, jund, gruul aggro, naya midrange, and esper control.
The main changes I plan to make are: MB
-1 arbor elf, -1 resto angel, -1 forest
I feel like these changes help out both the mirror and the control matchup as well as smooth the mana a little bit. It also lets me dedicate another slot to beating aggro post-board.
right now I don't feel like the deck is particularly weak to anything. Pretty much every game I lost was because of misplays or simply bad draws (mana screw/flooding etc).
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My list is similar to junk reanimator except for:
- I play 4 colors (GWub) instead of 3 (but almost all the main deck is GW: no salvage/troll... very few mana problems, actually less than the troll version). However no utility land, but with instincts I always have something to do with my mana
- 4 Tracker's instincts instead of 4 grisly salvage: brings a lot of CA, mills a lot more
- Farseek instead of arbor elf: don't want to lose too many creature with verdict, farseek is needed to fix the mana
- 4 verdict in sideboard: probably the best card against most aggro decks, not a lot of other ways to win against a turn 1 champion, turn 2 emissary into mauler.
- 3 prime speaker zegana: this is mostly my strategy against graveyard hate (RiP) for midrange/control decks: side out (some) rites/mulch, side in zegana/detention sphere.
Thoughts?
I agree, though the videos he did on Jund zombies in legacy were a lot worse.
One problem with lotleth troll/lingering souls version is that it is very weak to rest in peace. Troll sometimes do a wonderful job, but sometimes you will get 2 or 3 trolls in hand and nothing to discard, and then they are most of the time awful.
No one runs Rest in Peace MD. The whole point of the deck in G1 is you want the Rites to be the focal point of your plan, not a card that gives you random value here and there. What I mean by that, is that when you cast it, you just win the game. Having the Troll/LS will increase the chance of doing that, while blinking your Thragtusks with Restos will not. Postboard, things obviously change depending on the MU. If you think they have RiP, then you can adjust your gameplan accordingly.
I wouldn't say Sam Black's list is perfect, but not playing Troll/LS is not correct.
@Novajoe, grats on the top 4. Your list is very similar to what I'm running atm. One thing I've wondered is the neccessity of having Caverns against decks with counters, do you think they are needed?
No one runs Rest in Peace MD. The whole point of the deck in G1 is you want the Rites to be the focal point of your plan, not a card that gives you random value here and there. What I mean by that, is that when you cast it, you just win the game. Having the Troll/LS will increase the chance of doing that, while blinking your Thragtusks with Restos will not. Postboard, things obviously change depending on the MU. If you think they have RiP, then you can adjust your gameplan accordingly.
I wouldn't say Sam Black's list is perfect, but not playing Troll/LS is not correct.
@Novajoe, grats on the top 4. Your list is very similar to what I'm running atm. One thing I've wondered is the necessity of having Caverns against decks with counters, do you think they are needed?
So what happens when you don't draw Unburial Rites? And yes, it does happen. Having a deck in any game (even game one) that relies heavily on one specific situation/card is bad never the best way to go in a midrange deck. I can't see how gaining value out of every single card in your deck is bad. What's bad about it? I Still have the ability to turn 4 an Angel, but I don't need to because I can gain significant value out of every single card in my deck without being overly redundant, rather than relying on staying alive till I can hit an Unburial Rites. Also, lingering souls doesn't have near the impact on Naya blitz (a bad matchup) as turn 1 dork, turn 2 healer, turn 3 angel.
Also, on MODO I have ran into plenty of jund lists running MD Ground seal, and wouldn't be surprised if paper catches on to it. it's generally good against every deck in the format outside of Naya and the mirror, but it still cantrips so its not a total bust.
No one runs Rest in Peace MD. The whole point of the deck in G1 is you want the Rites to be the focal point of your plan, not a card that gives you random value here and there. What I mean by that, is that when you cast it, you just win the game. Having the Troll/LS will increase the chance of doing that, while blinking your Thragtusks with Restos will not. Postboard, things obviously change depending on the MU. If you think they have RiP, then you can adjust your gameplan accordingly.
I wouldn't say Sam Black's list is perfect, but not playing Troll/LS is not correct.
@Novajoe, grats on the top 4. Your list is very similar to what I'm running atm. One thing I've wondered is the neccessity of having Caverns against decks with counters, do you think they are needed?
I think 1 is optimal in a vacuum. I wouldn't play with none. I may even go to 3 if esper control becomes a big thing or UWR starts getting counter-happy. They really help to force your threats through.
Really I think there are 3 spots open for utility lands. In a midrange-heavy environment I would run more gavony township. In an aggro-heavy environment I would run more vault of the archangel. In a control-heavy environment I would run more cavern of souls. Basically just hedge it out based on what you expect to see more of. In a vacuum I would run 1 of each.
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So what happens when you don't draw Unburial Rites? And yes, it does happen. Having a deck in any game (even game one) that relies heavily on one specific situation/card is bad never the best way to go in a midrange deck. I can't see how gaining value out of every single card in your deck is bad. What's bad about it? I Still have the ability to turn 4 an Angel, but I don't need to because I can gain significant value out of every single card in my deck without being overly redundant, rather than relying on staying alive till I can hit an Unburial Rites. Also, lingering souls doesn't have near the impact on Naya blitz (a bad matchup) as turn 1 dork, turn 2 healer, turn 3 angel.
Also, on MODO I have ran into plenty of jund lists running MD Ground seal, and wouldn't be surprised if paper catches on to it. it's generally good against every deck in the format outside of Naya and the mirror, but it still cantrips so its not a total bust.
-So what happens when you don't draw Unburial Rites? Would you rather play Centaur Healers or Troll when you don't have Rites?
-I can't see how gaining value out of every single card in your deck is bad. What's bad about it? I said the MAIN plan of the deck should be to WIN on the back of Rites. There's nothing bad about gaining value off Rites.
-Also, lingering souls doesn't have near the impact on Naya blitz (a bad matchup) as turn 1 dork, turn 2 healer, turn 3 angel. I can argue just as well that the Healers are bad against everything else, what's the point?
I agree that Jund with MD Seals will be problematic, but then I would either play more Decays main, or just play other decks. You're playing this deck more as a midrange deck, which is fine. But why play fair when you don't have to?
-I can't see how gaining value out of every single card in your deck is bad. What's bad about it? I said the MAIN plan of the deck should be to WIN on the back of Rites. There's nothing bad about gaining value off Rites.
I agree that gaining value off rites is the best plan, but it can't be the only plan. Lingering Souls and Trolls won't win games as much as restoration angel and thragtusk, and knowing that every plan you have can just as likely win you the game is a very good thing that a lot of decks don't have.
-Also, lingering souls doesn't have near the impact on Naya blitz (a bad matchup) as turn 1 dork, turn 2 healer, turn 3 angel. I can argue just as well that the Healers are bad against everything else, what's the point?
Healers aren't as bad against random 2/2's and aren't as bad against a reckoner, and a healer/angel Races better against a reckoner.
I agree that Jund with MD Seals will be problematic, but then I would either play more Decays main, or just play other decks. You're playing this deck more as a midrange deck, which is fine. But why play fair when you don't have to?
But am I really playing it fair? Being able to play off your deck and out of your graveyard isn't really fair at all. The difference is that I'm not at the same extreme as you, which means while my blowouts are fewer than yours, my deck still gives me the ability to play multiple angles of attack and allow me to outplay my opponent a lot more than the linear version. Also, this means that I don't have to worry about graveyard hate because I can do other things until I find my abrupt decays or acidic slimes.
-Have you actually played with the Troll? Do you know how good regeneration is right now? There's absolutely no reason why you would need to rely on Resto in G1 to win you the game when the hate just isn't there.
-Healer good against random 2/2s? What random 2/2s?
-Healer/Angel race better against Reckoner. You're saying 2 cards are better than 1? Also, last time I checked, 4 1/1 fliers outraces a 3/3.
-Again, I'm not saying don't play any Restos in the 75, but having more than 2 in the main detracts from your plan. The SB is there for a reason. In fact, I think postboard, Resto is one of your better threats.
I'm having a tough time finding a set list that I should play. There seem to be the Resto and Troll versions of the deck, and lots of card options within them both. I am not a deck builder and need some help. This is where I'm thinking about starting.
Not having Restos seems a bit odd, I may play 2 in the future, I just need a starting point. I hate to buy $85 worth of cards and then cut them. Does the above list have any holes or something missing?
I think not having Restoration Angel in this meta is clearly wrong, they give your deck flexibility and make the lines for your opponent much more difficult to deal with.
I personally cut Lingering Souls a couple of days ago and added in 2 Lotleth Troll. The Trolls have been very good, mainly allowing me to pitch Craterhoof for the surprise win. His regen is pretty good and I have no complaints about having him vs Aggro as well. Souls has been such a weak card with Kessig and trample everywhere (Ghor-Clan Rampager in particular). Restoration Angel also goes up in value if you cut Souls so you at least have some outs to other Angels and the potential to block Falkenrath.
Here is my list: Top 8'd the modo premier event last night going 7-1 in swiss and losing in game 3 of the quarters to Human Reanimator. Only loss in swiss was to RG aggro, lost game 3 to back to back Hellrider's.
With the increase in reanimator decks in the meta I added 2 Purify the Grave to the SB and put one of the Deathrites MB.
Surprisingly there still isn't that much hate out there for the deck. I ran into several Tormod's over the night and just forced them to crack it with Abrupt Decay and went on about my day. Jund played some Ground Seal's and a couple decks ran Grafdigger's Cage, both of which do about nothing as you still maintain all the milled value once you deal with them. Round 7 or 8 a Jund player dropped double Ground Seal's on me and I just Acidic Slime'd 3-4 of his lands and ignored the seals, I think he cast one Arbor Elf that game as he was stuck on only G/B after that.
I'm having a tough time finding a set list that I should play. There seem to be the Resto and Troll versions of the deck, and lots of card options within them both. I am not a deck builder and need some help. This is where I'm thinking about starting.
Not having Restos seems a bit odd, I may play 2 in the future, I just need a starting point. I hate to buy $85 worth of cards and then cut them. Does the above list have any holes or something missing?
honestly that's pretty much the same thing I'm running now except it has an extra land and a MB abrupt decay. Personally I drop a land and an abrupt decay for 2x resto angel, which is all you really need here, since it's main value doesn't come around until after you play thragtusk/obzedat. Still it's an excellent flash flyer and has great synergy with stuff like gavony township. (pass leaving gavony mana up to discourage blockers. When they don't attack you can play resto to further your board presence/gain value/combat tricks.) My Sb is somewhat close. -3 rhox faithmender, -2 loxodon smiter, +1 abrupt decay, +1 deathrite shaman, +3 centaur healer.
personally I don't see any point of playing abrupt decay main. Especially just 1. I'd say that most of the time it's just going to end up in your graveyard off a grisly salvage or mulch. Generally the 4x abrupt decay comes in out of the board against aggro or some builds of bant. It's a remarkably dead card in just about every other matchup. I usually side them in mostly for some number of mulch/salvage/unburial rites. Against aggro I usually go straight midrange strategy and basically treat the mulch/salvages as farseek slots. You don't want more than 4 diggers. The same usually goes for bant, since they pretty much always board in multiple RiPs.
I also think 23 land is perfectly fine. 23 vs 24 land actually matters remarkably little as far as drawing lands goes, especially with mulch/salvage/dorks, and the extra slot for a threat can be pretty invaluable.
Also, I'd play gavony township over vault 90% of the time. The only reason to do otherwise would be if you're meta is infested with aggro. The gavonies do wonders for making your thragtusk/resto angels too big for their resto angels/beasts/smiters.
I don't like rhox faithmender in this deck. The only aggro you should be worried about is super fast swarm aggro, in which case you usually are just playing faithmender and then dying before you can capitalize on him. You pretty much always end up having to block with him the turn you play him, which makes him remarkably easy to kill. If you don't have to block with him, then you're winning anyway. It might be slightly different if he had more than 1 power, allowing him to actually kill something in combat. if you really want to win against the fast aggro, you need a T2 centaur healer/lingering souls/troll backed up with regen mana. If you can consistently nail one of those things and follow up with a thragtusk or some other fatty then you'll win most of the time, unless they get some 2-3x BTE nut draw on you or something, but there's nothing anyone can do against that other than a matched BTE nut draw.
I personally think that 3x deathrite shaman between MB and SB is worth it. It's good in pretty much every matchup. The only reason not to MB it is because it doesn't accel you like you want against aggro, but the life gain is gravy and it turns off undying. I often bring in extras for some mana dorks when I'm on the play against aggro. He's completely bonkers in the mirror, UWR, and esper matchups.
I like your list Mordok, except for the 23 lands seems a bit low. How good are Centaur Healers? Think they're needed for the online meta?
Thanks NovaJoe. Lots of great info. I didn't think about the Mulch/Salvage when considering my land count. I'm playing online so there is a lot of aggro as they're the cheaper decks, but I'm still not sure I need the Vault. I will likely play a Vault and a Gavony, and a Cavern too.
That's a good point about Faithmender. I actually played Naya Blitz for a while and turn 4-5 wins were the norm, I can see how it is just being a 1/5 on turn 4.
Also I was wondering about the Sever, what are we usually targeting with it? Is it needed or just value from the flashback?
I like your list, except for the 23 lands. How good are Centaur Healers? Think they're needed? Also I was wondering about the Sever, what are you usually hitting with it? I'm considering running an Abrupt Decay maindeck instead.
The Healers are crucial, with blitz and RG aggro being popular the lifegain and T2 blocker is important. He goes well with Rites and Resto as well since you get value everytime he comes in to play. Ideally I don't "want" to play them, but I just hate giving up matches to aggro. And G1 we are so favored vs control and other midrange decks that I don't mind having them in there.
I started with 24 lands but ended up flooding too often, and I do have the 24th I put in against UWR/Esper.
Abrupt MD is probably not worth it, you will likely mill it with Mulch/Salvage for 0 value. Sever is clutch, exile + flashback are pretty important.
-Have you actually played with the Troll? Do you know how good regeneration is right now? There's absolutely no reason why you would need to rely on Resto in G1 to win you the game when the hate just isn't there.
I do play troll, I never said it wasn't good, I just said it wouldn't win games. and regeneration doesn't do jack against tragic slip and Rancor. Restoration angel can win games on its own, lotleth troll can't.
-Again, I'm not saying don't play any Restos in the 75, but having more than 2 in the main detracts from your plan. The SB is there for a reason. In fact, I think postboard, Resto is one of your better threats.
I think being able to play every game like a SB game makes your threats more diversified, and makes your win % in game 1 more likely, again, I'm not saying don't run troll, i run 2 in my 75. Again, I'm not saying lingering souls is bad, I'm saying that restoration angel is better.
The Healers are crucial, with blitz and RG aggro being popular the lifegain and T2 blocker is important. He goes well with Rites and Resto as well since you get value everytime he comes in to play. Ideally I don't "want" to play them, but I just hate giving up matches to aggro. And G1 we are so favored vs control and other midrange decks that I don't mind having them in there.
I started with 24 lands but ended up flooding too often, and I do have the 24th I put in against UWR/Esper.
Abrupt MD is probably not worth it, you will likely mill it with Mulch/Salvage for 0 value. Sever is clutch, exile + flashback are pretty important.
Thanks, I'll probably end up with something similar to your list.
I see a major difference in all of these lists when it comes to mana dorks and number of lands. Some versions play 6-7 dorks and 23 lands, others play as low as 4 dorks with 24 lands. Seems like 6+ dorks gives you more ability to combo faster and perhaps a little more resiliency against aggro, but 4 dorks and 24 lands lets you play the true mid-range game more.
What about Lingering Souls? Some lists I see play the card, some lists don't. I think I might go with 3-4 Troll, 2-3 Centaur Healer and no Lingering Souls (only because I'd have to buy them). The version I'm going to play next week has Resto Angel... which does have a slight synergy with Troll and Healer (at the very least letting it dodge removal and provide combat tricks).
But if people feel like Lingering Souls is an irreplaceable part of the deck, perhaps I'll shell out the money for them. I imagine the synergy with Mulch and Grisly Salvage is nice, giving you an extra half a card.
I do play troll, I never said it wasn't good, I just said it wouldn't win games. and regeneration doesn't do jack against tragic slip and Rancor. Restoration angel can win games on its own, lotleth troll can't.
I don't think you've played enough with the troll. He turns your mana dorks into value, has built in trample, and regenerates. not to mention the synergy with angel of serenity. (they kill serenity, you get a bunch of dudes to discard to the troll).
there have been games that I've won where pretty much the only creature I played was lotleth troll.
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What about Lingering Souls? Some lists I see play the card, some lists don't. I think I might go with 3-4 Troll, 2-3 Centaur Healer and no Lingering Souls (only because I'd have to buy them). The version I'm going to play next week has Resto Angel... which does have a slight synergy with Troll and Healer (at the very least letting it dodge removal and provide combat tricks).
But if people feel like Lingering Souls is an irreplaceable part of the deck, perhaps I'll shell out the money for them. I imagine the synergy with Mulch and Grisly Salvage is nice, giving you an extra half a card.
lingering souls is pretty much strictly there to create chump blockers against aggro in my build. That's where I get the most value out of it anyway. I wouldn't mind running a better value card, but lingering souls just helps shore up the aggro matchup so much and it's not THAT bad against everything else.
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lingering souls is pretty much strictly there to create chump blockers against aggro in my build. That's where I get the most value out of it anyway. I wouldn't mind running a better value card, but lingering souls just helps shore up the aggro matchup so much and it's not THAT bad against everything else.
Personally, I've liked so much Souls that I've cut one Arbor Elf to make more space for one more copy (now I run 3). Tokens are good early blockers, early damage and as you said there's a good synergy with Mulch and Salvage.
Souls also allows you (if the tokens are unanswered) to make ridicolous amount of damage with the Behemoth.
About the Resto Angel, I think that a 2-3x is fine, but no more than that.
Man... it's just. Between Centaur Healer, Lotleth Troll, Lingering Souls, Resto Angel and mana dorks 5 and 6 (Arbor Elf)... I have like 12 slots open and can only play so many cards. I'm kind of reluctant to bench Resto because I just bought a 3rd one, but I really get the argument for doing so. I lost a game this past FNM because I didn't have a discard outlet and didn't have the mana to hardcast my bombs.
Right now I'm thinking 6 Dorks, 3 Lingering Souls, 4 Lotleth Troll, and basically bench/side Centaur Healer and maybe Resto. Although something like Loxodon Smiter is probably better than Resto in the sideboard. But... again, I'm struggling to bench a card I just spent money on. Part of me thinks "well, it's not THAT much better" but then the other side of me is saying that I should be looking for any incremental value to make this deck better.
I've been thinking of trying out 2 pilgrims/2 deathrites/2 elves to try and hedge the mirror. A decent amount of the time you'll be able to use him to ramp and he can sometimes clean up mana when you do end up with slower hands with multiple dorks. He completely wins G1 if you can land him early and are able to have a reasonable draw in the mirror as this deck doesn't kill creatures outside of combat/AoS. I can't really recall a game where I didn't draw more than 1 dork, usually 2-3 is pretty average so having deathrite be one of them can really turn things around or simply ramp. Also, in the late game what are the chances of arbor elf/pilgrim taking a spot removal? - deathrite on the other hand can be winning the game on his own sometimes and take the bullet.
I think you really want only 2 trolls, healer never feels that great but he is really worth it with restoration angel on turn 3/4. Follow that up with thragtusk and aggro is pretty much done for, you are just hitting your stride and they are locked out. I've being playing 2 more healers in the side along with 3 abrupt decay to handle aggro and decay hits so many other things. I've also being including 1 side garruk primal hunter because that card can swing games vs any midrange deck unanswered quite easily and with so many 5 power creatures it's good if you need to mix up your strategy.
Man... it's just. Between Centaur Healer, Lotleth Troll, Lingering Souls, Resto Angel and mana dorks 5 and 6 (Arbor Elf)... I have like 12 slots open and can only play so many cards. I'm kind of reluctant to bench Resto because I just bought a 3rd one, but I really get the argument for doing so. I lost a game this past FNM because I didn't have a discard outlet and didn't have the mana to hardcast my bombs.
Right now I'm thinking 6 Dorks, 3 Lingering Souls, 4 Lotleth Troll, and basically bench/side Centaur Healer and maybe Resto. Although something like Loxodon Smiter is probably better than Resto in the sideboard. But... again, I'm struggling to bench a card I just spent money on. Part of me thinks "well, it's not THAT much better" but then the other side of me is saying that I should be looking for any incremental value to make this deck better.
I'd play like 1 Resto main and 1 side. There's nothing wrong with not playing something you invested money in. It's not going to dramatically depreciate in value any time soon given how it's one of the top 10 creatures in Modern.
With the 4 Troll/3 LS config, you have 3 slots to mise with. I'm running a Resto, a Slime and a Sever for value, Ground Seal and Olivia/Mirror, respectively. Hell you can play all 3 resto in those slots if you really wanted.
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I think I can appreciate basically taking out Resto Angel and some dorks and all of that cutesy stuff for Lotleth Troll, an extra land, Lingering Souls and a couple of 1-ofs.
Hmmm... I don't know if I'm going to look forward to shelling out the money for those cards, but after playing a few games against control where it felt like the only way I could win was to go over the top of them... maybe it's worth it. The list I played was a lot friendlier with the BW lands which I basically don't have any of.
pretty much this. I think lotleth troll and lingering souls are very powerful cards, but I think leaning on them too hard just leaves you too wide open to hate. You need to find a happy medium.
Just Top 4'd a 1k tournament today playing this:
4 temple garden
4 overgrown tomb
3 forest
4 woodland cemetery
2 sunpetal grove
2 isolated chapel
2 cavern of souls
1 gavony township
4 lotleth troll
4 avacyn's pilgrim
3 arbor elf
3 restoration angel
4 thragtusk
3 angel of serenity
2 craterhoof behemoth
4 grisly salvage
3 mulch
3 lingering souls
2 centaur healer
4 acidic slime
4 abrupt decay
1 sever the bloodline
2 deathrite shaman
2 obzedat, ghost council
I went 5-1 losing only to esper control (and then beat the esper player in the top 8). I beat unexpected results, jund, gruul aggro, naya midrange, and esper control.
The main changes I plan to make are:
MB
-1 arbor elf, -1 resto angel, -1 forest
+1 deathrite shaman, +1 obzedat, +1 godless shrine
SB
-1 obzedat
+1 centaur healer
I feel like these changes help out both the mirror and the control matchup as well as smooth the mana a little bit. It also lets me dedicate another slot to beating aggro post-board.
right now I don't feel like the deck is particularly weak to anything. Pretty much every game I lost was because of misplays or simply bad draws (mana screw/flooding etc).
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
No one runs Rest in Peace MD. The whole point of the deck in G1 is you want the Rites to be the focal point of your plan, not a card that gives you random value here and there. What I mean by that, is that when you cast it, you just win the game. Having the Troll/LS will increase the chance of doing that, while blinking your Thragtusks with Restos will not. Postboard, things obviously change depending on the MU. If you think they have RiP, then you can adjust your gameplan accordingly.
I wouldn't say Sam Black's list is perfect, but not playing Troll/LS is not correct.
@Novajoe, grats on the top 4. Your list is very similar to what I'm running atm. One thing I've wondered is the neccessity of having Caverns against decks with counters, do you think they are needed?
So what happens when you don't draw Unburial Rites? And yes, it does happen. Having a deck in any game (even game one) that relies heavily on one specific situation/card is bad never the best way to go in a midrange deck. I can't see how gaining value out of every single card in your deck is bad. What's bad about it? I Still have the ability to turn 4 an Angel, but I don't need to because I can gain significant value out of every single card in my deck without being overly redundant, rather than relying on staying alive till I can hit an Unburial Rites. Also, lingering souls doesn't have near the impact on Naya blitz (a bad matchup) as turn 1 dork, turn 2 healer, turn 3 angel.
Also, on MODO I have ran into plenty of jund lists running MD Ground seal, and wouldn't be surprised if paper catches on to it. it's generally good against every deck in the format outside of Naya and the mirror, but it still cantrips so its not a total bust.
Extendo
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I think 1 is optimal in a vacuum. I wouldn't play with none. I may even go to 3 if esper control becomes a big thing or UWR starts getting counter-happy. They really help to force your threats through.
Really I think there are 3 spots open for utility lands. In a midrange-heavy environment I would run more gavony township. In an aggro-heavy environment I would run more vault of the archangel. In a control-heavy environment I would run more cavern of souls. Basically just hedge it out based on what you expect to see more of. In a vacuum I would run 1 of each.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
-So what happens when you don't draw Unburial Rites? Would you rather play Centaur Healers or Troll when you don't have Rites?
-I can't see how gaining value out of every single card in your deck is bad. What's bad about it? I said the MAIN plan of the deck should be to WIN on the back of Rites. There's nothing bad about gaining value off Rites.
-Also, lingering souls doesn't have near the impact on Naya blitz (a bad matchup) as turn 1 dork, turn 2 healer, turn 3 angel. I can argue just as well that the Healers are bad against everything else, what's the point?
I agree that Jund with MD Seals will be problematic, but then I would either play more Decays main, or just play other decks. You're playing this deck more as a midrange deck, which is fine. But why play fair when you don't have to?
I would play both in the land of Tragic slips.
I agree that gaining value off rites is the best plan, but it can't be the only plan. Lingering Souls and Trolls won't win games as much as restoration angel and thragtusk, and knowing that every plan you have can just as likely win you the game is a very good thing that a lot of decks don't have.
Healers aren't as bad against random 2/2's and aren't as bad against a reckoner, and a healer/angel Races better against a reckoner.
But am I really playing it fair? Being able to play off your deck and out of your graveyard isn't really fair at all. The difference is that I'm not at the same extreme as you, which means while my blowouts are fewer than yours, my deck still gives me the ability to play multiple angles of attack and allow me to outplay my opponent a lot more than the linear version. Also, this means that I don't have to worry about graveyard hate because I can do other things until I find my abrupt decays or acidic slimes.
Extendo
Read my Blog!
-Have you actually played with the Troll? Do you know how good regeneration is right now? There's absolutely no reason why you would need to rely on Resto in G1 to win you the game when the hate just isn't there.
-Healer good against random 2/2s? What random 2/2s?
-Healer/Angel race better against Reckoner. You're saying 2 cards are better than 1? Also, last time I checked, 4 1/1 fliers outraces a 3/3.
-Again, I'm not saying don't play any Restos in the 75, but having more than 2 in the main detracts from your plan. The SB is there for a reason. In fact, I think postboard, Resto is one of your better threats.
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
3 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures (21):
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Arbor Elf
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Lotleth Troll
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Thragtusk
3 Angel of Serenity
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Mulch
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Grisly Salvage
3 Lingering Souls
4 Unburial Rites
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Acidic Slime
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Loxodon Smiter
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Rhox Faithmender
1 Sever the Bloodline
Not having Restos seems a bit odd, I may play 2 in the future, I just need a starting point. I hate to buy $85 worth of cards and then cut them. Does the above list have any holes or something missing?
I personally cut Lingering Souls a couple of days ago and added in 2 Lotleth Troll. The Trolls have been very good, mainly allowing me to pitch Craterhoof for the surprise win. His regen is pretty good and I have no complaints about having him vs Aggro as well. Souls has been such a weak card with Kessig and trample everywhere (Ghor-Clan Rampager in particular). Restoration Angel also goes up in value if you cut Souls so you at least have some outs to other Angels and the potential to block Falkenrath.
Here is my list: Top 8'd the modo premier event last night going 7-1 in swiss and losing in game 3 of the quarters to Human Reanimator. Only loss in swiss was to RG aggro, lost game 3 to back to back Hellrider's.
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Godless Shrine
1 Gavony Township
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Temple Garden
1 Forest
4 Woodland Cemetery
Creatures:
2 Lotleth Troll
2 Arbor Elf
4 Centaur Healer
4 Thragtusk
3 Angel of Serenity
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Restoration Angel
1 Sever the Bloodline
3 Mulch
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Unburial Rites
1 Restoration Angel
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Purify the Grave
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
3 Acidic Slime
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Rhox Faithmender
3 Abrupt Decay
With the increase in reanimator decks in the meta I added 2 Purify the Grave to the SB and put one of the Deathrites MB.
Surprisingly there still isn't that much hate out there for the deck. I ran into several Tormod's over the night and just forced them to crack it with Abrupt Decay and went on about my day. Jund played some Ground Seal's and a couple decks ran Grafdigger's Cage, both of which do about nothing as you still maintain all the milled value once you deal with them. Round 7 or 8 a Jund player dropped double Ground Seal's on me and I just Acidic Slime'd 3-4 of his lands and ignored the seals, I think he cast one Arbor Elf that game as he was stuck on only G/B after that.
honestly that's pretty much the same thing I'm running now except it has an extra land and a MB abrupt decay. Personally I drop a land and an abrupt decay for 2x resto angel, which is all you really need here, since it's main value doesn't come around until after you play thragtusk/obzedat. Still it's an excellent flash flyer and has great synergy with stuff like gavony township. (pass leaving gavony mana up to discourage blockers. When they don't attack you can play resto to further your board presence/gain value/combat tricks.) My Sb is somewhat close. -3 rhox faithmender, -2 loxodon smiter, +1 abrupt decay, +1 deathrite shaman, +3 centaur healer.
personally I don't see any point of playing abrupt decay main. Especially just 1. I'd say that most of the time it's just going to end up in your graveyard off a grisly salvage or mulch. Generally the 4x abrupt decay comes in out of the board against aggro or some builds of bant. It's a remarkably dead card in just about every other matchup. I usually side them in mostly for some number of mulch/salvage/unburial rites. Against aggro I usually go straight midrange strategy and basically treat the mulch/salvages as farseek slots. You don't want more than 4 diggers. The same usually goes for bant, since they pretty much always board in multiple RiPs.
I also think 23 land is perfectly fine. 23 vs 24 land actually matters remarkably little as far as drawing lands goes, especially with mulch/salvage/dorks, and the extra slot for a threat can be pretty invaluable.
Also, I'd play gavony township over vault 90% of the time. The only reason to do otherwise would be if you're meta is infested with aggro. The gavonies do wonders for making your thragtusk/resto angels too big for their resto angels/beasts/smiters.
I don't like rhox faithmender in this deck. The only aggro you should be worried about is super fast swarm aggro, in which case you usually are just playing faithmender and then dying before you can capitalize on him. You pretty much always end up having to block with him the turn you play him, which makes him remarkably easy to kill. If you don't have to block with him, then you're winning anyway. It might be slightly different if he had more than 1 power, allowing him to actually kill something in combat. if you really want to win against the fast aggro, you need a T2 centaur healer/lingering souls/troll backed up with regen mana. If you can consistently nail one of those things and follow up with a thragtusk or some other fatty then you'll win most of the time, unless they get some 2-3x BTE nut draw on you or something, but there's nothing anyone can do against that other than a matched BTE nut draw.
I personally think that 3x deathrite shaman between MB and SB is worth it. It's good in pretty much every matchup. The only reason not to MB it is because it doesn't accel you like you want against aggro, but the life gain is gravy and it turns off undying. I often bring in extras for some mana dorks when I'm on the play against aggro. He's completely bonkers in the mirror, UWR, and esper matchups.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Thanks NovaJoe. Lots of great info. I didn't think about the Mulch/Salvage when considering my land count. I'm playing online so there is a lot of aggro as they're the cheaper decks, but I'm still not sure I need the Vault. I will likely play a Vault and a Gavony, and a Cavern too.
That's a good point about Faithmender. I actually played Naya Blitz for a while and turn 4-5 wins were the norm, I can see how it is just being a 1/5 on turn 4.
Also I was wondering about the Sever, what are we usually targeting with it? Is it needed or just value from the flashback?
The Healers are crucial, with blitz and RG aggro being popular the lifegain and T2 blocker is important. He goes well with Rites and Resto as well since you get value everytime he comes in to play. Ideally I don't "want" to play them, but I just hate giving up matches to aggro. And G1 we are so favored vs control and other midrange decks that I don't mind having them in there.
I started with 24 lands but ended up flooding too often, and I do have the 24th I put in against UWR/Esper.
Abrupt MD is probably not worth it, you will likely mill it with Mulch/Salvage for 0 value. Sever is clutch, exile + flashback are pretty important.
I do play troll, I never said it wasn't good, I just said it wouldn't win games. and regeneration doesn't do jack against tragic slip and Rancor. Restoration angel can win games on its own, lotleth troll can't.
BTE, evolved experiments, Huntmasters and their wolves, not to mention against 2/1's with first strike.
never said they didn't, just said they do it better. and you're relying on a 2-1 just as much as I am.
I think being able to play every game like a SB game makes your threats more diversified, and makes your win % in game 1 more likely, again, I'm not saying don't run troll, i run 2 in my 75. Again, I'm not saying lingering souls is bad, I'm saying that restoration angel is better.
Extendo
Read my Blog!
Thanks, I'll probably end up with something similar to your list.
But if people feel like Lingering Souls is an irreplaceable part of the deck, perhaps I'll shell out the money for them. I imagine the synergy with Mulch and Grisly Salvage is nice, giving you an extra half a card.
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
2 Godless Shrine
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Vault of the Archangel
Creatures (23):
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Arbor Elf
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Lotleth Troll
3 Centaur Healer
2 Restoration Angel
4 Thragtusk
3 Angel of Serenity
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Mulch
4 Grisly Salvage
2 Lingering Souls
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Unburial Rites
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Acidic Slime
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Centaur Healer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Obzedat, Ghost Council
2 Purify the Grave
I wouldn't play Gavony, Vault AND Cavern. Just play Gavony if you're going to play Healer (And Cavern). 3 Colourless is way too many.
I don't think you've played enough with the troll. He turns your mana dorks into value, has built in trample, and regenerates. not to mention the synergy with angel of serenity. (they kill serenity, you get a bunch of dudes to discard to the troll).
there have been games that I've won where pretty much the only creature I played was lotleth troll.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
lingering souls is pretty much strictly there to create chump blockers against aggro in my build. That's where I get the most value out of it anyway. I wouldn't mind running a better value card, but lingering souls just helps shore up the aggro matchup so much and it's not THAT bad against everything else.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
With JunkRites taking down yet another Open, I'd certainly play 4 trolls to streamline this deck as much as possible for the mirror.
Man... it's just. Between Centaur Healer, Lotleth Troll, Lingering Souls, Resto Angel and mana dorks 5 and 6 (Arbor Elf)... I have like 12 slots open and can only play so many cards. I'm kind of reluctant to bench Resto because I just bought a 3rd one, but I really get the argument for doing so. I lost a game this past FNM because I didn't have a discard outlet and didn't have the mana to hardcast my bombs.
Right now I'm thinking 6 Dorks, 3 Lingering Souls, 4 Lotleth Troll, and basically bench/side Centaur Healer and maybe Resto. Although something like Loxodon Smiter is probably better than Resto in the sideboard. But... again, I'm struggling to bench a card I just spent money on. Part of me thinks "well, it's not THAT much better" but then the other side of me is saying that I should be looking for any incremental value to make this deck better.
I think you really want only 2 trolls, healer never feels that great but he is really worth it with restoration angel on turn 3/4. Follow that up with thragtusk and aggro is pretty much done for, you are just hitting your stride and they are locked out. I've being playing 2 more healers in the side along with 3 abrupt decay to handle aggro and decay hits so many other things. I've also being including 1 side garruk primal hunter because that card can swing games vs any midrange deck unanswered quite easily and with so many 5 power creatures it's good if you need to mix up your strategy.
I'd play like 1 Resto main and 1 side. There's nothing wrong with not playing something you invested money in. It's not going to dramatically depreciate in value any time soon given how it's one of the top 10 creatures in Modern.
With the 4 Troll/3 LS config, you have 3 slots to mise with. I'm running a Resto, a Slime and a Sever for value, Ground Seal and Olivia/Mirror, respectively. Hell you can play all 3 resto in those slots if you really wanted.