I'd go up to 4 rampager before I even got close to Giant Growth. I'd also probably go for Ranger's Guile before I touched it because dodging removal and getting a bit bigger seems more relevant.
Unless they have some magical first striking creature Rancor makes every creature a painful threat to consider in combat. It's also a free shock for every combat because it either lets you trade with something bigger in combat or deals damage, while returning to your hand after.
I've been running this for the last few weeks and it does a LOT of work. If I don't flood out on lands during the early stages of the game I've won every game on the play and still had a lot of wins on the draw when the Ghor-Clan Rampager package tends to come in.
Minor critique, in a deck with no card draw or filtering, I don't really like one of's. Legion Loyalist is strong, but if I was going for that effect, I would move myself to 4 post board.
Taking some of the criticisms here, I've revised my deck and found a lot better results. It didn't take a lot of card changes, but some reworking of what was SB and what was main really helped the deck out.
Minor critique, in a deck with no card draw or filtering, I don't really like one of's. Legion Loyalist is strong, but if I was going for that effect, I would move myself to 4 post board.
This is definitely a fair point from a consistency standpoint. I was going for another 1 drop for the option to enchant and I didn't think I had enough lands for Stonewright to work better.
Realistically he has done a lot of work and I considered playing with the Cackler balance to fit a few more in. However he's kind of meta dependent since the first strike/trample/evasion ability needs to matter for him to be a better option than cacklers raw power.
Taking some of the criticisms here, I've revised my deck and found a lot better results. It didn't take a lot of card changes, but some reworking of what was SB and what was main really helped the deck out.
I think your Markov Blademaster interaction with Ghor-Clan Rampager and Rancor is pretty cool in this deck. However having something so fragile without haste concerns me a bit. I certainly don't want my 3 drops dying to tragic slip without a morbid trigger.
Not having Lightning Mauler for the explosive BTE T2 or Blademaster T3 seems a bit strange though. The lack of Boros Reckoner is also strange, you should try him if you haven't already.
Think of it like this, rakdos cackler is good because its 2 damage a turn for one mana.
Rancor is nearly a 2/2 with haste, and the opponent can't kill it either. Its just going to keep providing 2 damage every turn and its going to help out all your tiny guys get past things bigger than them.
"This deck doesn't have as aggressive of a start as other aggro decks. It doesn't even have stand-alone finishers like Falkenrath Aristocrat. What it does have is consistency, which is the most important thing for an aggressive deck right now. Everyone has realized how fast this format can really be (*cough* Naya Blitz *cough*) and have been making adjustments.
This means Pillar of Flame and Tragic Slip are getting the love they deserve. It's not like these cards aren't good against this deck, but there just isn't a good reason to sacrifice consistency for raw power in an aggressive deck when people are packing tools to deal with both. It is time to go back to simpler times and make sure you always have the ability to cast your spells."
I am not a big fan, although I am not a huge fan of hellrider in this deck either, especially 4. I feel that cutting ash zealot is just wrong, especially when he goes on to say how much of the format is these hyper aggressive decks that zealot stops in their tracks. Zealout with a rancor puts in very good position against 90% of the meta.
I am not sure if I like searing spear over pillar either. This feels like what happens when control players build aggro decks, they just pick the "better card". Pillar + rancor/cackler on turn 2 and pillar + 2drop on turn 3 is really important. Those 1 drops really help fill in your curve and make sure you are maximizing your mana each turn.
I am glad to see a pro acknowledge the temple garden tech though. Its such a great idea and I can't preach it enough. 3 is possibly a bit much though, at 3 you might run into too many mulligans that either double temple garden or temple garden and rootbound crag.
Moving the zealots out has been something that's been weighing on me for awhile as it really isn't consistent with BTE. I really like this deck and I agree with temple garden being crucial reckoner tech.
I think your Markov Blademaster interaction with Ghor-Clan Rampager and Rancor is pretty cool in this deck. However having something so fragile without haste concerns me a bit. I certainly don't want my 3 drops dying to tragic slip without a morbid trigger.
Not having Lightning Mauler for the explosive BTE T2 or Blademaster T3 seems a bit strange though. The lack of Boros Reckoner is also strange, you should try him if you haven't already.
These are both good points, and worth addressing. The Blademaster is usually something that, by the time he's hit the table, people have already been forced to use their good removal on something else. When that isn't the case, I've usually got some form of hexproofer in-hand.
I tried Lightning Mauler in the Ash Zealot slots, and it just wasn't quite right. I tried them in the Loyalist slots, and I actually found it worked even worse. Having eleven 1-drops is really important to this deck, as it needs to get going immediately. Reckoner I used to have in the board, but it's just SLOW, and I removed it for more "get there" cards.
Markov blademaster is basically only good with pump on him. I'd rather play hound of grisslebrand in that spot.
The biggest strike on the Hound is that it costs 4. I don't actually cast anything in this deck that costs 4. Most games getting to 4 mana means I win because I can drop a BTE and 2 other things, like Searing Spears. You might think Ghor-Clan Rampager costs 4, but you'd be wrong. It costs RG 95% of the time at least.
What I really need to do is test more, I guess. Between all these suggestions, I do think Lightning Mauler has the most potential. We'll see where it goes.
I think Mugging is the perfect card for this deck. Should replace Pillars IMO. Obviously Pillar has its advatages, but in this kind of an aggro deck, Mugging is more useful. And what about Thundermaw? Hes also good but im guessing you're not incluing him because you want to keep the curve low.
The problem with Mugging is that it can't go to the dome. It's actually important to have that versatility. Going to the dome wins tons of games. It's one reason Skullcrack is so big in my SB, actually.
That and because I hate Sphinx's Revelation.
And yes, Thundermaw is exactly out because I almost never see 5 mana. If I do, the game's already lost. I've won so many games with 2 lands on board, it's awesome. 3 is kind of expected, and 4 is comfort zone. Being able to cast two spells per turn means I'm usually going hyper-speed.
Not sure if any of you know me but I have been a staple in the Dos Rakis thread(and Mono-Red at very beginning) for quite some time now. Usually doing amazing, but the past 3-4 weeks, not so much.
I have now converted over to Gruul to rip some faces off just a bit faster
I was looking at this deck here from the SCG Las Vegas.
Just curious what you guys think about Volcanic Strength vs Ghor-Clan Rampager, seems as they occupy the same slot.
In my very limited playtesting, Boros Reckoner was giving me a lot of issues. My friend was playing a Mono-White Weenie deck, but I figured against most decks running Boros Reckoner, they will be running Mountains in there. This would allow me to go right past Boros Reckoner with Volcanic Strength.
Adding onto that, how have you all been dealing with Boros Reckoners? So hard not to get 2 for 1'd out of it.
Volcanic strength vs gcr is a meta call. If most people are running red I'd say volcanic strength is the better card. If not then gcr... Although you really can't compare them as volcanic strength is definetly a sideboard card whereas gcr would be a main board that could be sided out.
These are both good points, and worth addressing. The Blademaster is usually something that, by the time he's hit the table, people have already been forced to use their good removal on something else. When that isn't the case, I've usually got some form of hexproofer in-hand.
I tried Lightning Mauler in the Ash Zealot slots, and it just wasn't quite right. I tried them in the Loyalist slots, and I actually found it worked even worse. Having eleven 1-drops is really important to this deck, as it needs to get going immediately. Reckoner I used to have in the board, but it's just SLOW, and I removed it for more "get there" cards.
Wow, I'm a bit surprised that you think that about Reckoner. I'm playing a hyper aggressive 18 land build where he tops my curve and I'm rarely unhappy to see him. He completely warps any race and tends to steal games that I'd have no business winning otherwise.
We could and probably should have an entire thread just for the comparison of Mugging and Pillar of Flame. They are each good in specific situations so it could possibly be a meta call. However it'd be nice to have all of the arguments in one place.
Thanks for posting that list, it's very similar to the one I'm playing so I expect it is also a deviation off of Saito's 18 land Rg list. It looks like he opted to drop the Madcap Skills and the 4th Rancor in favor of a Searing Spear package. A lot of the wins I've stolen have been on the back of Madcap Skills because Searing Spear doesn't do a great job of punching through Smiter and having consistent G to cast Ghor-Clan Rampager frightens me in a deck where only 8 lands out of 18 can produce it.
Ghor-Clan Rampager against an opposing Smiter or Boros Reckoner is one of the most savage plays you can get away with right now. Since most red decks are sporting Mizzium Mortars post board the toughness boost from Volcanic Strength is considerably less relevant than I expected it to be. There is also the problem where some of these part red decks are avoiding mountains in their manabase so mountain walk reliability goes down a lot.
Trample is very good against Boros Reckoner because you only ever have to assign 3 damage to something, 3 damage still sucks though. Ghor-Clan Rampager and brute forcing through him seems like the only profitable option to me. Some game 2's I have Volcanic Strength boarded in and I'm able to get in with evasion, however that happens far less often than I like. Strongarm removal is likely our best option if we can't overpower him and win on tempo. These are what I see as the best options for our colors.
W - Oblivion Ring
B - Dreadbore
G - Ghor-Clan Rampager
U - Bounce/Rapid Hybridization
Oh, don't get me wrong: Reckoner is an amazing card. It just doesn't fit as well in my version of the deck. The only 3-drop I'm running is Markov Blademaster, and that's because he wins games by himself. First time he swings is for 3 (same as Reckoner), and that's without putting Madcap on him. Then it's 9. Think about that. Comparing that with Reckoner... and you can see why I think Reckoner is slow in my deck.
I also agree about Mugging vs. Pillar being a really good discussion, but I think it boils down to what each deck is doing.
Mugging:
- 2 to a creature (removal)
- removes a blocker
Pillar:
- 2 to a creature (removal)
- potentially exiles
- 2 to the dome
Mugging can be worth more than 2 damage IF you hit a big creature/blocker, thus allowing more of your damage to go through. In a deck with Madcap Skills or Pyreheart Wolf, it might have the advantage. It gives more control over the combat phase.
Pillar is one of the few cards that deals with undying. It also has the benefit of exiling BTEs from the Humanimator deck, thus making it more difficult for them to get the mana required for their infinite combo.
It's really a meta call, I think. Either card has its uses. Which card your deck needs really depends on what your deck is.
GCR > VS maindeck. VS is more prone to getting in only 2 damage the turn it comes down and then getting removed 2-1, whereas GCR usually gets rid of a blocker, acting as removal, getting some damage through, and as a game finisher.
GCR > VS maindeck. VS is more prone to getting in only 2 damage the turn it comes down and then getting removed 2-1, whereas GCR usually gets rid of a blocker, acting as removal, getting some damage through, and as a game finisher.
I am rather new to the thread. Has there been an ongoing debate to this decision?
I feel like Volcanic Strength answers Reckoner pretty well. From my limited play of the deck, Reckoner was a big problem.
The mana cost has me a little weary of GCR, 8 sources is a bit low. Volcanic Strength works better with BTE as well.
Playing devils advocate
EDIT: Not sure how the hell these decks run 18 lands..but damn it works!
These are both good points, and worth addressing. The Blademaster is usually something that, by the time he's hit the table, people have already been forced to use their good removal on something else. When that isn't the case, I've usually got some form of hexproofer in-hand.
I tried Lightning Mauler in the Ash Zealot slots, and it just wasn't quite right. I tried them in the Loyalist slots, and I actually found it worked even worse. Having eleven 1-drops is really important to this deck, as it needs to get going immediately. Reckoner I used to have in the board, but it's just SLOW, and I removed it for more "get there" cards.
The biggest strike on the Hound is that it costs 4. I don't actually cast anything in this deck that costs 4. Most games getting to 4 mana means I win because I can drop a BTE and 2 other things, like Searing Spears. You might think Ghor-Clan Rampager costs 4, but you'd be wrong. It costs RG 95% of the time at least.
What I really need to do is test more, I guess. Between all these suggestions, I do think Lightning Mauler has the most potential. We'll see where it goes.
Legion loyalist is way less than spectacular. Rancor is your 1 drop #9-12.
I know what you mean about 3 mana vs 4, but blademaster on his own is just not impressive. It feels like you want him because you want a single card threat, and that card is the hound not a 1/1 for 3.
I really don't see how you can think blademaster is better than reckoner. Reckoner heavily swings the mirror and can be a huge comeback and if you are on offense reckoner is basically impossible to block.
Oh, don't get me wrong: Reckoner is an amazing card. It just doesn't fit as well in my version of the deck. The only 3-drop I'm running is Markov Blademaster, and that's because he wins games by himself. First time he swings is for 3 (same as Reckoner), and that's without putting Madcap on him. Then it's 9. Think about that. Comparing that with Reckoner... and you can see why I think Reckoner is slow in my deck.
Blademaster only gets in for 3 if its not blocked, and it trades with a 2/2. Reckoner gives no ****s about being blocks and will kill 2 2/2s. 2/2s are so prevalent in this meta, you can run a 3 drop that trades with a bte.
You are just backing up my opinion here that blademaster is only good with pump.
You are thinking how the card plays in a vacuum instead of how it plays against an opponent.
Legion loyalist is way less than spectacular. Rancor is your 1 drop #9-12.
I know what you mean about 3 mana vs 4, but blademaster on his own is just not impressive. It feels like you want him because you want a single card threat, and that card is the hound not a 1/1 for 3.
I really don't see how you can think blademaster is better than reckoner. Reckoner heavily swings the mirror and can be a huge comeback and if you are on offense reckoner is basically impossible to block.
Blademaster only gets in for 3 if its not blocked, and it trades with a 2/2. Reckoner gives no ****s about being blocks and will kill 2 2/2s. 2/2s are so prevalent in this meta, you can run a 3 drop that trades with a bte.
You are just backing up my opinion here that blademaster is only good with pump.
You are thinking how the card plays in a vacuum instead of how it plays against an opponent.
I hear your arguments. Honestly I do. I thought the same way. But the deck I'm playing is built to pump. Whether it's Madcap Skills or GCR or Rancor or Volcanic Strength or Ranger's Guile, it's built that way. What that DOES do is make me a bit weaker when I don't have one of my 25 creatures on the field.
I've also done some testing this evening about the Hound, and... the deck just cannot hit 4 lands consistently enough to cast him on-curve. If he's in my opening 7, I cringe. That's not how it should play. I even tried adding in more Lightning Maulers to offset that some. Maulers were awesome, but the Hound is still iffy. I'll do more testing. It's not so much that he's a singular threat, but he's a finisher. If I land him, and he hits (for whatever reason), I win.
Regarding Reckoners, maybe I'm just wrong. Maybe I should re-try them at the 3 slot instead of either double-striker. It's not like it will make the mana any worse. Just swap the 2 forests for Temple Gardens and call it good.
Lastly, regarding Legion Loyalist, I agree that he's been less stellar MD than usual. He's a great SB card against token decks, but I often end up siding him out for Ash Zealots. Thinking it's time to make the MD/SB swap there.
^
Again, this format has so many x/2's right now, ash zealout does a lot in almost every matchtup. When you pump him he also lets you profitably attack into a whole lot of things.
He also plays defense incredibly well, which unfortunately is a thing you have to do sometimes.
No R/G aggro in the top 16 of both events today, time to trade my lands for caverns!
naya blitz isn't really where you want to be either. it's just too inconsistent to take you all the way in a large tournament. Good for something like fnm though.
Here's what I'm considering playing at a few local events coming up"
Modo's meta is becoming midrange heavy again, so I've stopped running Saito's 18-land list for the brew I made when Gatecrash released. Why try to run under board stalls when you can just run through board stalls?
Yeah I wasn't saying for naya blitz, I am going to be heading in the jund aggro/zombie direction. Seeing as how you went to SCG Atlanta, I am assuming youll be playing in some of the events around there the next couple weeks. Ill be at SCG Classic in Birmingham next weekend, and then the tcg platinum IQ on the 23rd/or going to play in the SCG IQ that day, not sure yet..
Joe I really think you should look into Firefist striker. I have been really impressed by him. Possibly drop a hellrider, a mtn and LM for 3 of them. I had a lot of difficulty being able to reliably cast hellrider last weekend in the 3 events I played in atlanta... a lot of the meta is UWR. I think the reckoners in the SB is a good call. Plummet seems interesting, how has it been testing?
Yeah I wasn't saying for naya blitz, I am going to be heading in the jund aggro/zombie direction. Seeing as how you went to SCG Atlanta, I am assuming youll be playing in some of the events around there the next couple weeks. Ill be at SCG Classic in Birmingham next weekend, and then the tcg platinum IQ on the 23rd/or going to play in the SCG IQ that day, not sure yet..
Joe I really think you should look into Firefist striker. I have been really impressed by him. Possibly drop a hellrider, a mtn and LM for 3 of them. I had a lot of difficulty being able to reliably cast hellrider last weekend in the 3 events I played in atlanta... a lot of the meta is UWR. I think the reckoners in the SB is a good call. Plummet seems interesting, how has it been testing?
ill be at birmingham for sure. the rest isn't really planned out yet.
plummet has been pretty good. Great for killing resto angel, angel of serenity, aurelia, and olivia. Those are usually the only creatures I'm looking to "remove" rather than just get through. I'm considering bumping it up to 3 and dropping a gruul charm.
I'm running 22 land so hellrider isn't bad for me at all. He's just such an effective closer and I can't see running less than 4, since I want to see him every game. Sure it sucks running him all lonesome into a resto angel, but he's good in literally every other situation.
firefist striker would be better if I were basing heavily around BTE, but I'm trying to give the deck a little bit of late-game as well. Hence running 4 hellrider and 3 ghor-clan. With the rancors and 7 4-drops I've found it's not as hard to keep applying pressure even if the opponent has found all thier removal early.
TBH, I really like where r/x aggro stands right now. We have a strong game against reanimator strategies, which are pushing back our bad matchups like UWR, jund, and esper. Junk is going to be the new hot thing next week, and I plan on capitalizing on that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Big thanks to DarkNightCavalier from heroes of the planes studios for the sig!
I hear your arguments. Honestly I do. I thought the same way. But the deck I'm playing is built to pump. Whether it's Madcap Skills or GCR or Rancor or Volcanic Strength or Ranger's Guile, it's built that way. What that DOES do is make me a bit weaker when I don't have one of my 25 creatures on the field.
I've also done some testing this evening about the Hound, and... the deck just cannot hit 4 lands consistently enough to cast him on-curve. If he's in my opening 7, I cringe. That's not how it should play. I even tried adding in more Lightning Maulers to offset that some. Maulers were awesome, but the Hound is still iffy. I'll do more testing. It's not so much that he's a singular threat, but he's a finisher. If I land him, and he hits (for whatever reason), I win.
Regarding Reckoners, maybe I'm just wrong. Maybe I should re-try them at the 3 slot instead of either double-striker. It's not like it will make the mana any worse. Just swap the 2 forests for Temple Gardens and call it good.
Lastly, regarding Legion Loyalist, I agree that he's been less stellar MD than usual. He's a great SB card against token decks, but I often end up siding him out for Ash Zealots. Thinking it's time to make the MD/SB swap there.
I'd like to see your list. as I am using madcap currently. Honestly though I don't think more than 8 enchantments (including 4 rancor) is worth it. I was trying 4 madcap, 4 rancor, and 2 furor of the bitten (I like it more than Volcanic S honestly). But after testing I just can't keep it up with the enchants so I cut a couple. Here is what I have currently
Now what I want to do is find room for 2 hellriders, but I believe with 2 4 drops I would need ATLEAST 20 land, right? Maybe -1 madcap, -2 firefist, +2 land, +2 hellrider... so 20 land 2 hellrider.. But that's 61.. meh.
What do you think hellrider, or no hellrider? I am very torn as he ends games.
So first list, or this list, what do you guys think?:
Also I was thinking of including a couple Triumph of Ferocity as I LOVE the card and think it is underated.. and an extra card a turn thanks to madcap and rancor is really nice.
Minor critique, in a deck with no card draw or filtering, I don't really like one of's. Legion Loyalist is strong, but if I was going for that effect, I would move myself to 4 post board.
Here's the current list:
4x Stomping Ground
4x Rootbound Crag
2x Forest
11x Mountain
Creatures (25)
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Rakdos Cackler
3x Legion Loyalist
2x Ash Zealot
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Markov Blademaster
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
1x Pillar of Flame
2x Ranger's Guile
4x Searing Spear
Enchantments (7)
4x Rancor
2x Madcap Skills
1x Alpha Authority
1x Alpha Authority
2x Ash Zealot
2x Giant Growth
1x Madcap Skills
1x Mizzium Mortars
3x Pillar of Flame
3x Skullcrack
2x Volcanic Strength
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
This is definitely a fair point from a consistency standpoint. I was going for another 1 drop for the option to enchant and I didn't think I had enough lands for Stonewright to work better.
Realistically he has done a lot of work and I considered playing with the Cackler balance to fit a few more in. However he's kind of meta dependent since the first strike/trample/evasion ability needs to matter for him to be a better option than cacklers raw power.
I think your Markov Blademaster interaction with Ghor-Clan Rampager and Rancor is pretty cool in this deck. However having something so fragile without haste concerns me a bit. I certainly don't want my 3 drops dying to tragic slip without a morbid trigger.
Not having Lightning Mauler for the explosive BTE T2 or Blademaster T3 seems a bit strange though. The lack of Boros Reckoner is also strange, you should try him if you haven't already.
Think of it like this, rakdos cackler is good because its 2 damage a turn for one mana.
Rancor is nearly a 2/2 with haste, and the opponent can't kill it either. Its just going to keep providing 2 damage every turn and its going to help out all your tiny guys get past things bigger than them.
I am not a big fan, although I am not a huge fan of hellrider in this deck either, especially 4. I feel that cutting ash zealot is just wrong, especially when he goes on to say how much of the format is these hyper aggressive decks that zealot stops in their tracks. Zealout with a rancor puts in very good position against 90% of the meta.
I am not sure if I like searing spear over pillar either. This feels like what happens when control players build aggro decks, they just pick the "better card". Pillar + rancor/cackler on turn 2 and pillar + 2drop on turn 3 is really important. Those 1 drops really help fill in your curve and make sure you are maximizing your mana each turn.
I am glad to see a pro acknowledge the temple garden tech though. Its such a great idea and I can't preach it enough. 3 is possibly a bit much though, at 3 you might run into too many mulligans that either double temple garden or temple garden and rootbound crag.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
Moving the zealots out has been something that's been weighing on me for awhile as it really isn't consistent with BTE. I really like this deck and I agree with temple garden being crucial reckoner tech.
These are both good points, and worth addressing. The Blademaster is usually something that, by the time he's hit the table, people have already been forced to use their good removal on something else. When that isn't the case, I've usually got some form of hexproofer in-hand.
I tried Lightning Mauler in the Ash Zealot slots, and it just wasn't quite right. I tried them in the Loyalist slots, and I actually found it worked even worse. Having eleven 1-drops is really important to this deck, as it needs to get going immediately. Reckoner I used to have in the board, but it's just SLOW, and I removed it for more "get there" cards.
The biggest strike on the Hound is that it costs 4. I don't actually cast anything in this deck that costs 4. Most games getting to 4 mana means I win because I can drop a BTE and 2 other things, like Searing Spears. You might think Ghor-Clan Rampager costs 4, but you'd be wrong. It costs RG 95% of the time at least.
What I really need to do is test more, I guess. Between all these suggestions, I do think Lightning Mauler has the most potential. We'll see where it goes.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
My deviantART; if you're interested in alters, PM me!
That and because I hate Sphinx's Revelation.
And yes, Thundermaw is exactly out because I almost never see 5 mana. If I do, the game's already lost. I've won so many games with 2 lands on board, it's awesome. 3 is kind of expected, and 4 is comfort zone. Being able to cast two spells per turn means I'm usually going hyper-speed.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
Not sure if any of you know me but I have been a staple in the Dos Rakis thread(and Mono-Red at very beginning) for quite some time now. Usually doing amazing, but the past 3-4 weeks, not so much.
I have now converted over to Gruul to rip some faces off just a bit faster
I was looking at this deck here from the SCG Las Vegas.
By: Jason Bulkowski
2013 StarCity Open Standard - Las Vegas - 3/2Type II
Main Deck:
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Stromkirk Noble
3 Rancor
4 Searing Spear
3 Volcanic Strength
10 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
2 Blasphemous Act
3 Domri Rade
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Hellrider
3 Mizzium Mortars
4 Skullcrack
1 Volcanic Strength
Just curious what you guys think about Volcanic Strength vs Ghor-Clan Rampager, seems as they occupy the same slot.
In my very limited playtesting, Boros Reckoner was giving me a lot of issues. My friend was playing a Mono-White Weenie deck, but I figured against most decks running Boros Reckoner, they will be running Mountains in there. This would allow me to go right past Boros Reckoner with Volcanic Strength.
Adding onto that, how have you all been dealing with Boros Reckoners? So hard not to get 2 for 1'd out of it.
Go easy on me guys
Wow, I'm a bit surprised that you think that about Reckoner. I'm playing a hyper aggressive 18 land build where he tops my curve and I'm rarely unhappy to see him. He completely warps any race and tends to steal games that I'd have no business winning otherwise.
We could and probably should have an entire thread just for the comparison of Mugging and Pillar of Flame. They are each good in specific situations so it could possibly be a meta call. However it'd be nice to have all of the arguments in one place.
Thanks for posting that list, it's very similar to the one I'm playing so I expect it is also a deviation off of Saito's 18 land Rg list. It looks like he opted to drop the Madcap Skills and the 4th Rancor in favor of a Searing Spear package. A lot of the wins I've stolen have been on the back of Madcap Skills because Searing Spear doesn't do a great job of punching through Smiter and having consistent G to cast Ghor-Clan Rampager frightens me in a deck where only 8 lands out of 18 can produce it.
Ghor-Clan Rampager against an opposing Smiter or Boros Reckoner is one of the most savage plays you can get away with right now. Since most red decks are sporting Mizzium Mortars post board the toughness boost from Volcanic Strength is considerably less relevant than I expected it to be. There is also the problem where some of these part red decks are avoiding mountains in their manabase so mountain walk reliability goes down a lot.
Trample is very good against Boros Reckoner because you only ever have to assign 3 damage to something, 3 damage still sucks though. Ghor-Clan Rampager and brute forcing through him seems like the only profitable option to me. Some game 2's I have Volcanic Strength boarded in and I'm able to get in with evasion, however that happens far less often than I like. Strongarm removal is likely our best option if we can't overpower him and win on tempo. These are what I see as the best options for our colors.
W - Oblivion Ring
B - Dreadbore
G - Ghor-Clan Rampager
U - Bounce/Rapid Hybridization
I also agree about Mugging vs. Pillar being a really good discussion, but I think it boils down to what each deck is doing.
Mugging:
- 2 to a creature (removal)
- removes a blocker
Pillar:
- 2 to a creature (removal)
- potentially exiles
- 2 to the dome
Mugging can be worth more than 2 damage IF you hit a big creature/blocker, thus allowing more of your damage to go through. In a deck with Madcap Skills or Pyreheart Wolf, it might have the advantage. It gives more control over the combat phase.
Pillar is one of the few cards that deals with undying. It also has the benefit of exiling BTEs from the Humanimator deck, thus making it more difficult for them to get the mana required for their infinite combo.
It's really a meta call, I think. Either card has its uses. Which card your deck needs really depends on what your deck is.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
I am rather new to the thread. Has there been an ongoing debate to this decision?
I feel like Volcanic Strength answers Reckoner pretty well. From my limited play of the deck, Reckoner was a big problem.
The mana cost has me a little weary of GCR, 8 sources is a bit low. Volcanic Strength works better with BTE as well.
Playing devils advocate
EDIT: Not sure how the hell these decks run 18 lands..but damn it works!
Legion loyalist is way less than spectacular. Rancor is your 1 drop #9-12.
I know what you mean about 3 mana vs 4, but blademaster on his own is just not impressive. It feels like you want him because you want a single card threat, and that card is the hound not a 1/1 for 3.
I really don't see how you can think blademaster is better than reckoner. Reckoner heavily swings the mirror and can be a huge comeback and if you are on offense reckoner is basically impossible to block.
Blademaster only gets in for 3 if its not blocked, and it trades with a 2/2. Reckoner gives no ****s about being blocks and will kill 2 2/2s. 2/2s are so prevalent in this meta, you can run a 3 drop that trades with a bte.
You are just backing up my opinion here that blademaster is only good with pump.
You are thinking how the card plays in a vacuum instead of how it plays against an opponent.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
what he said...
I've also done some testing this evening about the Hound, and... the deck just cannot hit 4 lands consistently enough to cast him on-curve. If he's in my opening 7, I cringe. That's not how it should play. I even tried adding in more Lightning Maulers to offset that some. Maulers were awesome, but the Hound is still iffy. I'll do more testing. It's not so much that he's a singular threat, but he's a finisher. If I land him, and he hits (for whatever reason), I win.
Regarding Reckoners, maybe I'm just wrong. Maybe I should re-try them at the 3 slot instead of either double-striker. It's not like it will make the mana any worse. Just swap the 2 forests for Temple Gardens and call it good.
Lastly, regarding Legion Loyalist, I agree that he's been less stellar MD than usual. He's a great SB card against token decks, but I often end up siding him out for Ash Zealots. Thinking it's time to make the MD/SB swap there.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
Again, this format has so many x/2's right now, ash zealout does a lot in almost every matchtup. When you pump him he also lets you profitably attack into a whole lot of things.
He also plays defense incredibly well, which unfortunately is a thing you have to do sometimes.
RGStandard Gruul AggroRG
naya blitz isn't really where you want to be either. it's just too inconsistent to take you all the way in a large tournament. Good for something like fnm though.
Here's what I'm considering playing at a few local events coming up"
4 rootbound crag
2 temple garden
12 mountain
4 stromkirk noble
4 rakdos cackler
4 burning-tree emissary
4 ash zealot
4 lightning mauler
4 flinthoof boar
4 hellrider
3 ghor-clan rampager
3 rancor
3 volcanic strength
2 gruul charm
4 reckless waif
2 plummet
4 boros reckoner
I might tweak the sb a little more. Considering adding tormod's crypt for the rise in reanimator that's going around.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
This is where I am at the moment.
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Stonewright
3 Legion Loyalist
4 Ash Zealot
3 Lightning Mauler
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Hellrider
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Rancor
4 Searing Spear
Lands
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Temple Garden
12 Mountain
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Volcanic Strength
3 Hound of Griselbrand
3 Pyreheart Wolf
Joe I really think you should look into Firefist striker. I have been really impressed by him. Possibly drop a hellrider, a mtn and LM for 3 of them. I had a lot of difficulty being able to reliably cast hellrider last weekend in the 3 events I played in atlanta... a lot of the meta is UWR. I think the reckoners in the SB is a good call. Plummet seems interesting, how has it been testing?
ill be at birmingham for sure. the rest isn't really planned out yet.
plummet has been pretty good. Great for killing resto angel, angel of serenity, aurelia, and olivia. Those are usually the only creatures I'm looking to "remove" rather than just get through. I'm considering bumping it up to 3 and dropping a gruul charm.
I'm running 22 land so hellrider isn't bad for me at all. He's just such an effective closer and I can't see running less than 4, since I want to see him every game. Sure it sucks running him all lonesome into a resto angel, but he's good in literally every other situation.
firefist striker would be better if I were basing heavily around BTE, but I'm trying to give the deck a little bit of late-game as well. Hence running 4 hellrider and 3 ghor-clan. With the rancors and 7 4-drops I've found it's not as hard to keep applying pressure even if the opponent has found all thier removal early.
TBH, I really like where r/x aggro stands right now. We have a strong game against reanimator strategies, which are pushing back our bad matchups like UWR, jund, and esper. Junk is going to be the new hot thing next week, and I plan on capitalizing on that.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
I'd like to see your list. as I am using madcap currently. Honestly though I don't think more than 8 enchantments (including 4 rancor) is worth it. I was trying 4 madcap, 4 rancor, and 2 furor of the bitten (I like it more than Volcanic S honestly). But after testing I just can't keep it up with the enchants so I cut a couple. Here is what I have currently
4x Stomping Ground
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Ash Zealot
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Lightning Mauler
2x Firefist Striker (Im a growing fan)
4x Burning-Tree emissary
4x Boros Reckoner
4x Searing Spear
3x Madcap Skills
4x Pillar of flame
3x Volcanic Strength
1x Mugging
2x Blasphemous act
3x Reckless Waif
Now what I want to do is find room for 2 hellriders, but I believe with 2 4 drops I would need ATLEAST 20 land, right? Maybe -1 madcap, -2 firefist, +2 land, +2 hellrider... so 20 land 2 hellrider.. But that's 61.. meh.
What do you think hellrider, or no hellrider? I am very torn as he ends games.
So first list, or this list, what do you guys think?:
4x Stomping Ground
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Ash Zealot
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Lightning Mauler
2x Firefist Striker (Im a growing fan)
4x Burning-Tree emissary
2x Boros Reckoner
2x Hellrider
4x Searing Spear
2x Madcap Skills
4x Pillar of flame
3x Reckless Waif
3x Skullcrack
2x blasphemous act
1x Mugging
Also I was thinking of including a couple Triumph of Ferocity as I LOVE the card and think it is underated.. and an extra card a turn thanks to madcap and rancor is really nice.