Ghor-clan is our best weapon against a Reckoner-heavy meta. Even if Reckoner's popularity decreases, I still wouldn't see myself using less than 4; he is the real deal.
Ghor-clan is our best weapon against a Reckoner-heavy meta. Even if Reckoner's popularity decreases, I still wouldn't see myself using less than 4; he is the real deal.
How do you use Rampager against Reckoner effectively? Do you pump the creature swinging at Reckoner to force him to point the damage so he can only kill 1 creature for with his reckoner?
Quote from Purp »
Kessig also really helped here, when ever a hellrider/reckoner/boar was blocked by a flashed in resto angel, I could easily pump for one to remove it. That is why I upped it to two from Kat's original list. It's a card I would literally like to see every game.
This line inspired me to make a list with a "transformational" side-board that goes bigger and adds these lands in. I'd been having a tough time with Naya as our toughest match-up and this post made something click with me. Kessig Wolf-run isn't just a superfluous mana dump that I thought it was, it can be a huge threat to these tricksy Naya lists.
How do you use Rampager against Reckoner effectively? Do you pump the creature swinging at Reckoner to force him to point the damage so he can only kill 1 creature for with his reckoner?
The four toughness means that Reckoner's first strike doesn't matter, and the trample means you only have to assign three damage to the Reckoner, rather than getting all four bounced back in your face. The bloodrush would have a similar effect for the bloodrushed creature.
The four toughness means that Reckoner's first strike doesn't matter, and the trample means you only have to assign three damage to the Reckoner, rather than getting all four bounced back in your face. The bloodrush would have a similar effect for the bloodrushed creature.
This. If you rampage a creature that already has 3 toughness (Boar/Hellrider) the only card you lose is rampager since the 3 redirected damage plus the 3 combat damage from reckoner doesn't equal 7. So, all you lose is a rampager and they lose a reckoner + life.
I guess I'll just swing with Boars then if they have a Reckoner and I don't have a wolf out.
Anyway here's that deck I was inspired to make:
Saiyan Gruul
Name is because it comes back stronger if it loses G1 against a bigger deck. It should always win G1 against control decks unless a horrible hand is drawn.
Differences from my last deck:
-Took out the lone Hellrider. 4 Mana is just too high and I never was able to have him curve perfectly and finish off a game and if i had 4 of him I'd imagine I'd curve into him more often but I'd also have less threats due to multiples of hellriders in my hand.
-Pillars into Muggings: Going to be testing this. I want my CREATURES to get through to do damage, so not going upstairs is no problem. The number of times where an opponent is at 2 life and stabilized is less than the times where if I could just profitably alpha in with a mugging when they are at 8~ and I have 4 creatures with 2/x, so I believe mugging has more synergy with Gruul.
-More Land: Too many 1 land hands caused me to do this. It keeps unplayable hands down to about 2.5 out of 10 (ala thread about Saito's original list and analysis of it) It also allows me to go up to 24 with the sideboard, which is nice for the 5-drop silvir hearts I want to play.
Sideboard
Completely re-vamped. I don't want to talk out of my **** before testing so I'll keep it to what I HOPE it will play out as. The side-board is there to go "bigger" and take on midrange decks that usually crush aggro. There is no Control-hate in the sideboard, except for some Hounds you can toss in instead of muggings. There's more land to up it to 24 too to make playing 4 drops on time and to dump Kessig mana into.
I WANTED to fit in Silvirhearts in the sideboard... but I don't want to cut hounds. GG is iffy with my land count anyway, and I didn't want to cut Domri either for him. Domri <3 Reckoner (even if it feels dirty loving a boros creature, that card is TOO DAMN GOOD)
I'll let you know how it goes. Might be awhile since I'll have to proxy the Reckoners at my LGS (but they have a lot of mid-range decks so it'll be good data). I feel iffy not playing a single burn card outside mugging, but I'm going with my gut that says that's how Gruul is meant to be played. Not even a single Mizzium mortars makes it in. This makes my deck pretty vulnerable to flyers post-side (only Domri can remove them), but I want to be on the attack and have THEM be vulnerable to ME.
So like I said we'll see how it goes.
EDIT:
I forgot to include the PLAN for the side-board.
Anyway if I lose G1 against a Midrange Naya/Jund (or even if I win), I'm going to:
-4 Cacklers
-1 Wolf
-2 Mugging
-4 LM
-4 Nobles
These cuts were hard to make. Zero 1 drop creatures might be a horribly dumb decision, but when none of them can take down a Smiter (without rancor of course) what purpose are they serving? I'm fine with the game going long, because now I can win it with Domri and Wolf run threats.
VS. RDW and Mirror Aggro
I realize zero burn and zero instant burn=LOL GONNA LOSE TO VOLCANIC STRENGTH. I'm willing to accept this as a hard match-up and am hoping to be able to surprise them with Giant Growths to counter their burn, but I'm the only real aggro deck in my meta so I'm not too worried.
Things I'm thinking about: Is Reckoner worth 8 slots on the side-board (temple gardens+him)? It would free up a lot of room cutting him and also allow for some Silverhearts+Hound combos.... hmm. I need to stop theorycrafting and take this out for a spin. Going to close the forums now...going to press X.. I SWEAR
This is the list I'm running now. Post board I have two less ways to cast Angel and Reckoner than previously (I swapped out the MD Temple Gardens for Overgrown Tombs and a MD mountain for a Temple Garden), but that's because my new Red one drop of choice to go with my Ooze is Cackler. It's not as insane as Stromkirk Noble, but he does give me a two power one drop and that's important. I also can utilize Overgrown Tombs to cast him, preventing me from actually having a tough time casting a Red and Green one drop in a deck with only 16 lands.
One thing I'm considering is which is more important, the ability to cast Restoration Angel out of the board, or the ability to cast either Stromkirk or Cackler on turn one. If casting Angel is more important, it may be correct to cut the red one drops in favor of Pilgrims (not something I'm too fond of) in the main, and then reworking the mana a bit to better utilize the white I'm now producing. The fact that only a few cards utilize W at all makes it hard to justify the pilgrim in the main, but it's something I've been testing.
Essentially I wanted to take the idea's presented by Saito, and combine them with Jund Aggro ala Ari Lax and then see how far I could push the envelope. What started out as a thought experiment turned into the above, and it's been absolutely insane. I crushed my game day with the above 75 (+1 Temple Garden boarded and -1 Reckoner simply due to card availability... I forgot I had planned on not attending game day and promised a bud he could borrow my set, so then I had to reacquire some more Reckoners in order to play).
So, quick Tournament Report
Round 1: BUG Delver
This match-up really comes down to how well they draw. If they draw the nuts, then it becomes hard because they are able to attrition you with removal, and your only true source of CA is Dormi. It is possible to just get beat, though if you play aggressively enough and mise a bit, you can just steam roll them. This was the case here. In game one he went turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Flip (revealing Dimir Charm) but he couldn't beat my turn 1 Experiment, turn 2 Emissary into Flunkies then turn 3 Dormi and hit Ambush Viper which took care of his Delver and let me cruise. Game 2 we both Mulliganed to five, only I hit turn one Experiment, turn 2 Emissary into Pilgrim turn 3 Restoration Angel into Flinthoof Boar for what was the perfect mulligan to five.
Round 2: Bant Control
I killed him before he could resolve anything relevant in either game.
Round 3: Jund Midrange
I love this match-up. They are slow to get started, but once they do it's pretty hard to beat them. Unfortunately for them, I don't ever flood out and so they have little hope of truly getting their engines going. I managed to crush my opponent with my four land draw because I had double Ghor-Clan and was able to produce massive amounts of damage through his attempts at disruption. In game two I managed the dream of turn 3 Huntaster thanks to another pilgrim in the first two turns and drawing excessive land.
I'd like to stop real quick and talk about how many lands I drew. For a 16 land deck, you would expect to max out at around 3 lands per game. I ran extremely well in the first three rounds, never having less than four lands on the table by the time the game ended (I'm counting Pilgrim as a land here) and able to correctly cast all my spells. This is wonderful, and you when designing absurd decks you have to remember that magic is a game of numbers and percentages, but at the end of the day to win a tournament, you still have to catch a case of the run goods. So, if you design a deck that is safe and has perfect numbers, sure, you are going to increase your odds of the run goods, but don't dismiss those crazy decks just because some of the percentages are lower than you want.
Round 4 was against my friend who I let borrow Reckoners so he scooped me into the Top 8.
Round 5 ID with another friend of mine who was playing this deck -3 or so cards (he ran additional lands MD because we can't all be crazy).
Top 8
Played against the Aristocrats and I stomped their face in. I don't think this deck is very good btw. It has some decent match-ups against almost anything, and it did win the Pro Tour, but this is one of those decks that's a lot like Gifts was during Kami block. It can win the PT, but that's because the environment is different. The players who played it were all extremely skilled pilots, and were able to play the deck as close to perfect as you can in the game of magic. Every single play you make with the deck can actually just lose you the game, so making the correct decisions is hard. In this match-up my opponent had utilized the decks raw power to make top 8, going 3-2 and being 8th seed, but he wasn't able to use that against me because I would say I'm on par or better than he is, which completely nullifies the advantage that he would normally have playing the deck. He misplayed a few lands, and made a crucial error in sacrificing a guy to save a Cartel, and I was able to take advantage of this in game one and then watch him mulligan into oblivion game two.
Note, I played two games every round through the finals. Never went to a third game, and for this, I'm extremely thankful. I went into the tournament not wanting to play magic and wound up having a great time because I played the perfect amount of magic.
Semi's was against the friend who borrowed my Reckoners and we were already prize split so he conceded.
Finals I played against Esper Control and was able to use a Guildmage to trample over for lethal game one when he had multiple Lingering Souls tokens in play and in game two I don't think he was expecting Huntmaster on turn 4 but double Angel on 5 and 6 (I had a turn 3 Dormi so I drew a ton of cards) was enough to give me the playmat (which I promptly gave to his son who was there, as I've known this guy since before his son was born and have watched him grow up so... giving a playmat to an 8 year old is much more rewarding than keeping it and never using it anyway).
If I had to make some comments about the way I would go with the deck from here on out I would say that 16 lands is very dangerous. If I was to play in a GP I would most certainly add a 17th land to the main deck, as having access to 18 real lands post board was insanely productive. The worst card for me on the day was probably Reckoner because everybody is playing cards that beat Reckoner now and it's not as unexpected as it was last weekend. Not saying the card wasn't good, but it was very difficult on my mana at all the wrong times and there were a few games where I chose to cast Dormi Rade over it and the game promptly ended the next turn. One thing I really like though is Fighting with it and fighting with Ambush Viper. Oh, and flashing in a Viper mid combat is probably the most rewarding thing I've done in constructed, especially when my opponents had to pick the card up to read it. Card is much better than people give it credit for (if they give it any) and I think it's very strong when played in the Dormi Rade version of Gruul (a removal spell that's a creature). One other card that was an all star for me was Flinthoof Boars 5-7, Mogg Flunkies. This guy doesn't ever have haste, but on turn 2 off an Emissary he's just as beefy as Flinthoof Boar and should probably be given more credit. Guy's just a solid two drop from start to finish.
Have you thoughabout legion loyalist over the guild Mage? Gives you the trample, avoid s lingering souls better too. Plus I don't imagine you got to animate lands too often?
If you don't deal with Reckoner the turn it comes down, you will most probably lose; taking 3 to get rid of it and still get damage through is a trade I will take any day.
Pyreheart wolf is a hero. I still rather see him than Reckoner, and if Reckoner is that subpar for me so far I'm not devoting 8 slots to him.
This frees up a TON of space to play around.
+2 Wolfir Silvirhearts
+3 Thunderbolts (Flyers are this deck's obvious weakness and this is nice answer)
+2 Traitorous Bloods (this+Domri rade pit fight is awesome)
Going to be making cuts to try and fit more land (at least 20 maybe?) in the main board so that Silvirhearts can actually come down on time post board. Also might run Gruul Guild gates (as a 2 of ONLY post-board) to help with making this a Gruul Smash-hammer deck.
Have you thoughabout legion loyalist over the guild Mage? Gives you the trample, avoid s lingering souls better too. Plus I don't imagine you got to animate lands too often?
Dormi presents an answer to flyers so I haven't had much trouble, and Angel's post board are pretty relevant so it's not too rough.
I thought about Loyalist initially, but it was entirely theory crafted. I was considering it as a one or two of max, but I ended up moving to the Guildmage because it gives you something else to do with excess mana to prevent you from truly flooding. Animating lands doesn't happen often, but when it does it's pretty relevant. Enough so that I wouldn't cut Guildmage for Loyalist, though battling Lingering Souls could be pretty clutch.
Gamester very interesting list, I thnk I am going to give it a shot at tommorrow nights WNM. Would you mind posting your side boarding strategy? (what goes in and out for popular deck matchups?)
double Angel on 5 and 6 (I had a turn 3 Dormi so I drew a ton of cards) was enough to give me the playmat (which I promptly gave to his son who was there, as I've known this guy since before his son was born and have watched him grow up so... giving a playmat to an 8 year old is much more rewarding than keeping it and never using it anyway).
Gamester very interesting list, I thnk I am going to give it a shot at tommorrow nights WNM. Would you mind posting your side boarding strategy? (what goes in and out for popular deck matchups?)
To be completely honest, sideboarding is very much something that happens based around what I saw in their deck list, and what I perceive them to bring in against me...
Some examples include:
Against creature light decks I cut the Ambush Vipers and Guildmages for Huntmasters and Angels (and then something like the Pyreheart and a Slaughterhorn)
Against creature heavy decks I cut the Flunkies/Maulers (depending on whether they are red based or Jund/Naya) for Reckoners and Huntmasters.
I'll come up with a more defined SB plan for cut and dry if I had to give the list to someone blind, but for the most part it's a feel kind of thing. I mentioned more about SB in my original post a few pages ago. I'll copy and paste that section in a minute. It's bedtime now, but I'll try to remember to hop on tomorrow early and give a more in depth look at how I sideboard blind.
Edit: This is what I posted earlier and a lot of this holds true from initial testing into actual tournament play. This isn't a cut and dry sb guide, but it's a very much theoretical as card choices and play styles of my opponent change the way I board very heavily.
The sideboard:
Reckoner is a beast. Plain and simple. He's not main because I want the additional mana sources if I'm playing him. He isn't always castable off 16 sources, but off 21 he's pretty consistently coming down turn 3.
Mountain/Pilgrim is so I can go up to 21 sources post board.
3 Angel/3 Huntmaster for the control decks. Some cards are worse in this match-up then others (Experiment is pretty bad when they can just Charm it over and over again, and Stromkirk is never getting through an Augur), so I really want these guys. While my SB is pretty much 15 or no, it still provides some play. You also have ample amounts of options for what to take out. For example!:
+15
-8 One drops
-4 Ghor-Clan
-2 Skarrg
-1 Slaughterhorn
or instead of Skarrg
-1 Wolf
-1 Viper
or even just all 3 Vipers
Or
+4 Reckoner
+1 Mountain
+4 Pilgrim
-2 Skarrg
-4 Visionary (we're up to 21 sources, the cantrip is less useful)
-3 Flunkies (We're on the Reckoner plan now, probably skipping this guy)
Can leave Skarrg in and take out some number of other guys, like Lightning Mauler, Viper and one drops.
Edit: Hey, I didn't get a chance to get on today, we had a power outage and couldn't get our modem to restart. I wont be able to type up a SB guide until tomorrow probably, but again, you can read the quoted section above for a basic example of the theory behind the SB and that should help out.
Personally I'd like help dealing with RWU Midrange stuff (Reckoners, Hellkites, Faithmender's Sphinx's, etc.)
I have a hard time finding out my role in this match post board.
Do I stay 18 land all in aggro and just try to blow them out before they can Sphinx's/Set up Faithmender walls?
If I try the VS plan, they always seem to have SO much removal sided in against me.
Side in TBloods to steal hellkites and resolve to play a longer, grindier game with Hounds of Griselbrand and take out my haste package (lightning maulers)?
Side in TBloods to steal hellkites and resolve to play a longer, grindier game with Hounds of Griselbrand and take out my haste package (lightning maulers)?
I've tried that, and have had mixed results, but I find that reacting isn't our strong suite. If we wanted to react we'd play a control deck, we're a deck that needs to be proactive. Your first solution of going under may be better, but that color matchup can present a lot of tempo problems, not allowing us to kill under their sweepers.
My 2 losses were against control decks who following me blowing them out game 1 wised up and stalled me out, I was wondering if anyone could tell me how I might play around this in future games? Is this a situation where sideboarding comes into play?
Well, I know most people play cackler to have bigger presence faster. Did you even have a sideboard?
To the rest of the thread, has anyone tested quirion dryad in the 18 land or at least sligh type gruul decks? Almost everything in those decks makes it grow and I think it could be at least good SB for opposing aggro decks. Giving you more big threats to stonewall them.
Playing in a TC Playermax tomorrow and would like some comments on any changes I should make. I do not want to lose to reanimator, I expect to see more of them tomorrow as a lot of well-known players will show up.
I plan to add either 3-4 graffdigger's cage to the SB. I was not to impressed with Skullcrack at all, as I didn't really see any Naya. I nutdrawed two games against jund before he could even play one, and killed the american player I played tonight after his first sphinx's.
traitorous blood was ok, but I think I might drop it down to 2. I am also thinking of removing Volley from MD and replacing it with mizzium mortar. I really like Brimstone in the control matchup. Might add reckless waifs instead.
Also possibly thinking of dropping a mountain and going to 19 lands.
Curious what yall's thoughts are... Mizzium MD over Volley? Skullcrack? Waif? TB? Thunderbolt? Elecktrickery? so many options!
I don't like Reckless Waifs anywhere in our 75, tbh.
One of the core parts of our deck that makes it so scary AGAINST control is swinging for 6 on turn 2 with BTE+LM or BTE+PoF+Rancor
All of these flip Waifs back and so now they are a 1/1.
My SB plan against control is (BTW I wouldn't have the same plan against Control and Midrange they are completely different decks and Midrange often have a turn 1 play for waifs anyway)
-3 Rancors (not a lot fo blockers, easy to 2-1 with their removal) +3 Hounds of Griselbrand. Hounds are a NIGHTmare for control, who already have trouble with our speed.
So for your sideboard I would -4 Reckless Waif +3/4 Hounds.
Giving sideboard advice against specific match-ups is tough without knowing what cards you're up against is tricky. But I do think hounds are much mroe versatile against more matchups than Waifs.
My 2 losses were against control decks who following me blowing them out game 1 wised up and stalled me out, I was wondering if anyone could tell me how I might play around this in future games? Is this a situation where sideboarding comes into play?
As for your deck its missing Pillar of Flame and I think 4 Legion Loyalists is too many. As was previously stated cacklers are more pressure more consistently. Legion Loyalist isn't really a solid Turn 1 "1 drop", he's more of a combat trick spell. He's great with rancor so ideally you can play him against a tapped out opponent with 1 red and 1 green.
There's a [SCD] thread about Loyalist if you're interested, explain better than I can why you should cut them down to 2x or so. I like him in your deck and I bet him+ Kessig Wolf Run is amazing.
-2 Loyalists
-1 Boros Reckoner (No haste, can be slow for an aggro deck)
-1 Lightning Mauler (I generally think he's our weakest 2 drop and not worth having multiples in hand, that's my opinion though)
+4 Pillar of Flame
Other than that the list looks pretty solid. A bit of a higher curve (with 4 hellriders) than most of the 18-land decks here but you have 22 to support it.
Playing in a TC Playermax tomorrow and would like some comments on any changes I should make. I do not want to lose to reanimator, I expect to see more of them tomorrow as a lot of well-known players will show up.
I plan to add either 3-4 graffdigger's cage to the SB. I was not to impressed with Skullcrack at all, as I didn't really see any Naya. I nutdrawed two games against jund before he could even play one, and killed the american player I played tonight after his first sphinx's.
traitorous blood was ok, but I think I might drop it down to 2. I am also thinking of removing Volley from MD and replacing it with mizzium mortar. I really like Brimstone in the control matchup. Might add reckless waifs instead.
Also possibly thinking of dropping a mountain and going to 19 lands.
Curious what yall's thoughts are... Mizzium MD over Volley? Skullcrack? Waif? TB? Thunderbolt? Elecktrickery? so many options!
Also thinking of trying to fit Hounds into the sideboard. I expect to see naya blitz today, so electrickery is definitely going in.
How do you use Rampager against Reckoner effectively? Do you pump the creature swinging at Reckoner to force him to point the damage so he can only kill 1 creature for with his reckoner?
This line inspired me to make a list with a "transformational" side-board that goes bigger and adds these lands in. I'd been having a tough time with Naya as our toughest match-up and this post made something click with me. Kessig Wolf-run isn't just a superfluous mana dump that I thought it was, it can be a huge threat to these tricksy Naya lists.
I'll write the list up later for review.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
The four toughness means that Reckoner's first strike doesn't matter, and the trample means you only have to assign three damage to the Reckoner, rather than getting all four bounced back in your face. The bloodrush would have a similar effect for the bloodrushed creature.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
This. If you rampage a creature that already has 3 toughness (Boar/Hellrider) the only card you lose is rampager since the 3 redirected damage plus the 3 combat damage from reckoner doesn't equal 7. So, all you lose is a rampager and they lose a reckoner + life.
Anyway here's that deck I was inspired to make:
Saiyan Gruul
Name is because it comes back stronger if it loses G1 against a bigger deck. It should always win G1 against control decks unless a horrible hand is drawn.
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Flinthoof Boar
4x Burning Tree-Emissary
4x Lightning Mauler
4x Ash Zealot
3x Pyreheart Wolf
4x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Mugging
Enchantments (7)
4x Rancor
3x Giant Growth
Lands (18)
4x Stomping Ground
4x Rootbound Crag
10x Mountain
4x Temple Garden
4x Boros Reckoner
3x Hound of Griselbrand
2x Domri Rade
2x Kessig Wolf-Runs
Differences from my last deck:
-Took out the lone Hellrider. 4 Mana is just too high and I never was able to have him curve perfectly and finish off a game and if i had 4 of him I'd imagine I'd curve into him more often but I'd also have less threats due to multiples of hellriders in my hand.
-Pillars into Muggings: Going to be testing this. I want my CREATURES to get through to do damage, so not going upstairs is no problem. The number of times where an opponent is at 2 life and stabilized is less than the times where if I could just profitably alpha in with a mugging when they are at 8~ and I have 4 creatures with 2/x, so I believe mugging has more synergy with Gruul.
-More Land: Too many 1 land hands caused me to do this. It keeps unplayable hands down to about 2.5 out of 10 (ala thread about Saito's original list and analysis of it) It also allows me to go up to 24 with the sideboard, which is nice for the 5-drop silvir hearts I want to play.
Sideboard
Completely re-vamped. I don't want to talk out of my **** before testing so I'll keep it to what I HOPE it will play out as. The side-board is there to go "bigger" and take on midrange decks that usually crush aggro. There is no Control-hate in the sideboard, except for some Hounds you can toss in instead of muggings. There's more land to up it to 24 too to make playing 4 drops on time and to dump Kessig mana into.
I WANTED to fit in Silvirhearts in the sideboard... but I don't want to cut hounds. GG is iffy with my land count anyway, and I didn't want to cut Domri either for him. Domri <3 Reckoner (even if it feels dirty loving a boros creature, that card is TOO DAMN GOOD)
I'll let you know how it goes. Might be awhile since I'll have to proxy the Reckoners at my LGS (but they have a lot of mid-range decks so it'll be good data). I feel iffy not playing a single burn card outside mugging, but I'm going with my gut that says that's how Gruul is meant to be played. Not even a single Mizzium mortars makes it in. This makes my deck pretty vulnerable to flyers post-side (only Domri can remove them), but I want to be on the attack and have THEM be vulnerable to ME.
So like I said we'll see how it goes.
EDIT:
I forgot to include the PLAN for the side-board.
Anyway if I lose G1 against a Midrange Naya/Jund (or even if I win), I'm going to:
-4 Cacklers
-1 Wolf
-2 Mugging
-4 LM
-4 Nobles
These cuts were hard to make. Zero 1 drop creatures might be a horribly dumb decision, but when none of them can take down a Smiter (without rancor of course) what purpose are they serving? I'm fine with the game going long, because now I can win it with Domri and Wolf run threats.
VS. RDW and Mirror Aggro
I realize zero burn and zero instant burn=LOL GONNA LOSE TO VOLCANIC STRENGTH. I'm willing to accept this as a hard match-up and am hoping to be able to surprise them with Giant Growths to counter their burn, but I'm the only real aggro deck in my meta so I'm not too worried.
Things I'm thinking about: Is Reckoner worth 8 slots on the side-board (temple gardens+him)? It would free up a lot of room cutting him and also allow for some Silverhearts+Hound combos.... hmm. I need to stop theorycrafting and take this out for a spin. Going to close the forums now...going to press X.. I SWEAR
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Ambush Viper
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Lightning Mauler
3 Mogg Flunkies
2 Skarrg Guildmage
1 Pyreheart Wolf
4 Slaughterhorn
4 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Stomping Grounds
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Temple Garden
4 Avacyn Pilgrim
3 Restoration Angel
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
This is the list I'm running now. Post board I have two less ways to cast Angel and Reckoner than previously (I swapped out the MD Temple Gardens for Overgrown Tombs and a MD mountain for a Temple Garden), but that's because my new Red one drop of choice to go with my Ooze is Cackler. It's not as insane as Stromkirk Noble, but he does give me a two power one drop and that's important. I also can utilize Overgrown Tombs to cast him, preventing me from actually having a tough time casting a Red and Green one drop in a deck with only 16 lands.
One thing I'm considering is which is more important, the ability to cast Restoration Angel out of the board, or the ability to cast either Stromkirk or Cackler on turn one. If casting Angel is more important, it may be correct to cut the red one drops in favor of Pilgrims (not something I'm too fond of) in the main, and then reworking the mana a bit to better utilize the white I'm now producing. The fact that only a few cards utilize W at all makes it hard to justify the pilgrim in the main, but it's something I've been testing.
Essentially I wanted to take the idea's presented by Saito, and combine them with Jund Aggro ala Ari Lax and then see how far I could push the envelope. What started out as a thought experiment turned into the above, and it's been absolutely insane. I crushed my game day with the above 75 (+1 Temple Garden boarded and -1 Reckoner simply due to card availability... I forgot I had planned on not attending game day and promised a bud he could borrow my set, so then I had to reacquire some more Reckoners in order to play).
So, quick Tournament Report
Round 1: BUG Delver
This match-up really comes down to how well they draw. If they draw the nuts, then it becomes hard because they are able to attrition you with removal, and your only true source of CA is Dormi. It is possible to just get beat, though if you play aggressively enough and mise a bit, you can just steam roll them. This was the case here. In game one he went turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Flip (revealing Dimir Charm) but he couldn't beat my turn 1 Experiment, turn 2 Emissary into Flunkies then turn 3 Dormi and hit Ambush Viper which took care of his Delver and let me cruise. Game 2 we both Mulliganed to five, only I hit turn one Experiment, turn 2 Emissary into Pilgrim turn 3 Restoration Angel into Flinthoof Boar for what was the perfect mulligan to five.
Round 2: Bant Control
I killed him before he could resolve anything relevant in either game.
Round 3: Jund Midrange
I love this match-up. They are slow to get started, but once they do it's pretty hard to beat them. Unfortunately for them, I don't ever flood out and so they have little hope of truly getting their engines going. I managed to crush my opponent with my four land draw because I had double Ghor-Clan and was able to produce massive amounts of damage through his attempts at disruption. In game two I managed the dream of turn 3 Huntaster thanks to another pilgrim in the first two turns and drawing excessive land.
I'd like to stop real quick and talk about how many lands I drew. For a 16 land deck, you would expect to max out at around 3 lands per game. I ran extremely well in the first three rounds, never having less than four lands on the table by the time the game ended (I'm counting Pilgrim as a land here) and able to correctly cast all my spells. This is wonderful, and you when designing absurd decks you have to remember that magic is a game of numbers and percentages, but at the end of the day to win a tournament, you still have to catch a case of the run goods. So, if you design a deck that is safe and has perfect numbers, sure, you are going to increase your odds of the run goods, but don't dismiss those crazy decks just because some of the percentages are lower than you want.
Round 4 was against my friend who I let borrow Reckoners so he scooped me into the Top 8.
Round 5 ID with another friend of mine who was playing this deck -3 or so cards (he ran additional lands MD because we can't all be crazy).
Top 8
Played against the Aristocrats and I stomped their face in. I don't think this deck is very good btw. It has some decent match-ups against almost anything, and it did win the Pro Tour, but this is one of those decks that's a lot like Gifts was during Kami block. It can win the PT, but that's because the environment is different. The players who played it were all extremely skilled pilots, and were able to play the deck as close to perfect as you can in the game of magic. Every single play you make with the deck can actually just lose you the game, so making the correct decisions is hard. In this match-up my opponent had utilized the decks raw power to make top 8, going 3-2 and being 8th seed, but he wasn't able to use that against me because I would say I'm on par or better than he is, which completely nullifies the advantage that he would normally have playing the deck. He misplayed a few lands, and made a crucial error in sacrificing a guy to save a Cartel, and I was able to take advantage of this in game one and then watch him mulligan into oblivion game two.
Note, I played two games every round through the finals. Never went to a third game, and for this, I'm extremely thankful. I went into the tournament not wanting to play magic and wound up having a great time because I played the perfect amount of magic.
Semi's was against the friend who borrowed my Reckoners and we were already prize split so he conceded.
Finals I played against Esper Control and was able to use a Guildmage to trample over for lethal game one when he had multiple Lingering Souls tokens in play and in game two I don't think he was expecting Huntmaster on turn 4 but double Angel on 5 and 6 (I had a turn 3 Dormi so I drew a ton of cards) was enough to give me the playmat (which I promptly gave to his son who was there, as I've known this guy since before his son was born and have watched him grow up so... giving a playmat to an 8 year old is much more rewarding than keeping it and never using it anyway).
If I had to make some comments about the way I would go with the deck from here on out I would say that 16 lands is very dangerous. If I was to play in a GP I would most certainly add a 17th land to the main deck, as having access to 18 real lands post board was insanely productive. The worst card for me on the day was probably Reckoner because everybody is playing cards that beat Reckoner now and it's not as unexpected as it was last weekend. Not saying the card wasn't good, but it was very difficult on my mana at all the wrong times and there were a few games where I chose to cast Dormi Rade over it and the game promptly ended the next turn. One thing I really like though is Fighting with it and fighting with Ambush Viper. Oh, and flashing in a Viper mid combat is probably the most rewarding thing I've done in constructed, especially when my opponents had to pick the card up to read it. Card is much better than people give it credit for (if they give it any) and I think it's very strong when played in the Dormi Rade version of Gruul (a removal spell that's a creature). One other card that was an all star for me was Flinthoof Boars 5-7, Mogg Flunkies. This guy doesn't ever have haste, but on turn 2 off an Emissary he's just as beefy as Flinthoof Boar and should probably be given more credit. Guy's just a solid two drop from start to finish.
Did flyers ever give you trouble?
Have you thoughabout legion loyalist over the guild Mage? Gives you the trample, avoid s lingering souls better too. Plus I don't imagine you got to animate lands too often?
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
If you don't deal with Reckoner the turn it comes down, you will most probably lose; taking 3 to get rid of it and still get damage through is a trade I will take any day.
I think you meant Burning-Tree Emissary, not Burning-Tree Shaman
Pyreheart wolf is a hero. I still rather see him than Reckoner, and if Reckoner is that subpar for me so far I'm not devoting 8 slots to him.
This frees up a TON of space to play around.
+2 Wolfir Silvirhearts
+3 Thunderbolts (Flyers are this deck's obvious weakness and this is nice answer)
+2 Traitorous Bloods (this+Domri rade pit fight is awesome)
Going to be making cuts to try and fit more land (at least 20 maybe?) in the main board so that Silvirhearts can actually come down on time post board. Also might run Gruul Guild gates (as a 2 of ONLY post-board) to help with making this a Gruul Smash-hammer deck.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
Dormi presents an answer to flyers so I haven't had much trouble, and Angel's post board are pretty relevant so it's not too rough.
I thought about Loyalist initially, but it was entirely theory crafted. I was considering it as a one or two of max, but I ended up moving to the Guildmage because it gives you something else to do with excess mana to prevent you from truly flooding. Animating lands doesn't happen often, but when it does it's pretty relevant. Enough so that I wouldn't cut Guildmage for Loyalist, though battling Lingering Souls could be pretty clutch.
Nevermind me.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
You are a good person.
To be completely honest, sideboarding is very much something that happens based around what I saw in their deck list, and what I perceive them to bring in against me...
Some examples include:
Against creature light decks I cut the Ambush Vipers and Guildmages for Huntmasters and Angels (and then something like the Pyreheart and a Slaughterhorn)
Against creature heavy decks I cut the Flunkies/Maulers (depending on whether they are red based or Jund/Naya) for Reckoners and Huntmasters.
I'll come up with a more defined SB plan for cut and dry if I had to give the list to someone blind, but for the most part it's a feel kind of thing. I mentioned more about SB in my original post a few pages ago. I'll copy and paste that section in a minute. It's bedtime now, but I'll try to remember to hop on tomorrow early and give a more in depth look at how I sideboard blind.
Edit: This is what I posted earlier and a lot of this holds true from initial testing into actual tournament play. This isn't a cut and dry sb guide, but it's a very much theoretical as card choices and play styles of my opponent change the way I board very heavily.
Edit: Hey, I didn't get a chance to get on today, we had a power outage and couldn't get our modem to restart. I wont be able to type up a SB guide until tomorrow probably, but again, you can read the quoted section above for a basic example of the theory behind the SB and that should help out.
Personally I'd like help dealing with RWU Midrange stuff (Reckoners, Hellkites, Faithmender's Sphinx's, etc.)
I have a hard time finding out my role in this match post board.
Do I stay 18 land all in aggro and just try to blow them out before they can Sphinx's/Set up Faithmender walls?
If I try the VS plan, they always seem to have SO much removal sided in against me.
Side in TBloods to steal hellkites and resolve to play a longer, grindier game with Hounds of Griselbrand and take out my haste package (lightning maulers)?
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
I've tried that, and have had mixed results, but I find that reacting isn't our strong suite. If we wanted to react we'd play a control deck, we're a deck that needs to be proactive. Your first solution of going under may be better, but that color matchup can present a lot of tempo problems, not allowing us to kill under their sweepers.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Well, I know most people play cackler to have bigger presence faster. Did you even have a sideboard?
To the rest of the thread, has anyone tested quirion dryad in the 18 land or at least sligh type gruul decks? Almost everything in those decks makes it grow and I think it could be at least good SB for opposing aggro decks. Giving you more big threats to stonewall them.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 BTE
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Reckoner
4 Hellrider
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Brimstone Volley
12 Mounttain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Volcanic Strength
4 Skullcrack
3 traitorous blood
1 Pillar of Flame
3 Mizzium Mortars
Playing in a TC Playermax tomorrow and would like some comments on any changes I should make. I do not want to lose to reanimator, I expect to see more of them tomorrow as a lot of well-known players will show up.
I plan to add either 3-4 graffdigger's cage to the SB. I was not to impressed with Skullcrack at all, as I didn't really see any Naya. I nutdrawed two games against jund before he could even play one, and killed the american player I played tonight after his first sphinx's.
traitorous blood was ok, but I think I might drop it down to 2. I am also thinking of removing Volley from MD and replacing it with mizzium mortar. I really like Brimstone in the control matchup. Might add reckless waifs instead.
Also possibly thinking of dropping a mountain and going to 19 lands.
Curious what yall's thoughts are... Mizzium MD over Volley? Skullcrack? Waif? TB? Thunderbolt? Elecktrickery? so many options!
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Ash Zealot
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Hellrider
4 Searing Spear
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Rancor
Lands
12 Mountain
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Volcanic Strength
3 Skullcrack
2 Domri Rade
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Traitorous Blood
2 Blasphemous Act
Match 1: I beat Wolf run bant off a mull to 5 g2 against a fast hand, and on the back of a Domri g3.
Match 2: Lost 2-1 against boros aggro - one game I got burned out from 10, and the second I lost to double volcanic strength, and I drew no removal.
Match 3: Beat jund 2-1, with an overloaded mortars against a board of 2 huntmasters/wolves and an olivia.
Match 4: Raced human reanimator
Match 5: Beat Naya zoo 2-1 with a traitorous blood game 3.
One of the core parts of our deck that makes it so scary AGAINST control is swinging for 6 on turn 2 with BTE+LM or BTE+PoF+Rancor
All of these flip Waifs back and so now they are a 1/1.
My SB plan against control is (BTW I wouldn't have the same plan against Control and Midrange they are completely different decks and Midrange often have a turn 1 play for waifs anyway)
-3 Rancors (not a lot fo blockers, easy to 2-1 with their removal) +3 Hounds of Griselbrand. Hounds are a NIGHTmare for control, who already have trouble with our speed.
So for your sideboard I would -4 Reckless Waif +3/4 Hounds.
Giving sideboard advice against specific match-ups is tough without knowing what cards you're up against is tricky. But I do think hounds are much mroe versatile against more matchups than Waifs.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
As for your deck its missing Pillar of Flame and I think 4 Legion Loyalists is too many. As was previously stated cacklers are more pressure more consistently. Legion Loyalist isn't really a solid Turn 1 "1 drop", he's more of a combat trick spell. He's great with rancor so ideally you can play him against a tapped out opponent with 1 red and 1 green.
There's a [SCD] thread about Loyalist if you're interested, explain better than I can why you should cut them down to 2x or so. I like him in your deck and I bet him+ Kessig Wolf Run is amazing.
-2 Loyalists
-1 Boros Reckoner (No haste, can be slow for an aggro deck)
-1 Lightning Mauler (I generally think he's our weakest 2 drop and not worth having multiples in hand, that's my opinion though)
+4 Pillar of Flame
Other than that the list looks pretty solid. A bit of a higher curve (with 4 hellriders) than most of the 18-land decks here but you have 22 to support it.
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."
Also thinking of trying to fit Hounds into the sideboard. I expect to see naya blitz today, so electrickery is definitely going in.
how could you.....
HOW CAN YOU HATE THE FIRE OF A WILD HEART LIKE THE RAMPAGER
Fires (R/G)f Salvation
Gruul to the end. "If it doesn't break... hit harder."