That primer is outdated and the posters are a lot less active that the ones here.
I expect that, with the new forum layout we will have our own forum... i would be very happy if the community lets me make the primer.
What exactly is outdated about the primer? It has the GP Quebec winning Naya Blitz list as the first deck list displayed in the deck list section, and while a few of the "potential card option" listings might be outdated that certainly doesn't apply to the majority of it.
Let me know what you think needs updating. I agree with nagao's assertion that the threads should probably be merged.
Mainboarding Boros Charm seems a bit risky. I have found it can really screw up some of my opening hands. Is removing Thalia from the MB worth it? I feel she can be very important in winning a g1 when we are on the draw.
I also am having a tough time deciding when to mull with this deck... are we mulling a hand with no one-drop no matter what? Mulling 1 landers?
Thalia's a mixed bag. While she's phenomenal on the play, on the draw she's less impressive, and she forces us to sacrifice our big turn 2s. She also won't drop off of a BTE, so I'm considering swapping her out for something that will.
As to the mulligan question, I've lost countless matches now trying to stick with a 1 land hand thinking I could draw into a second mana. Meanwhile, I've won games with just 2 lands having never drawn a third. I'd much rather see two mana in my opening hand and not have to worry about finding a third one in the very limited amount of time we have to win.
At this point, my rule of thumb will mulligans is 2 lands, a one drop, and a powerful turn 2 play. It really all hinges on BTE. Almost any one drop will do, though Champion is usually preferable. If I can't have a BTE, I definitely want a Mayor and a couple additional creatures. If I don't see either one, I'm very likely to ship it unless I can map out three or four good turns worth of damage.
The lands I get are also a big factor. I've lost matches with great creatures and nothing but Caverns or buddy lands to go with it. We need the speed that shocks provide or we lose our edge.
I get what you are saying Cambriel. I will be playin tonight at TNM, I have yet to decide whether I will go with 3 Thalia/1 GCR or some number of Boros Charm/Thalia. Im going to so more test draws until I decide, I'll edit this post with my list once I head out (as well as update it with report later)
What exactly is outdated about the primer? It has the GP Quebec winning Naya Blitz list as the first deck list displayed in the deck list section, and while a few of the "potential card option" listings might be outdated that certainly doesn't apply to the majority of it.
Let me know what you think needs updating. I agree with nagao's assertion that the threads should probably be merged.
I think most of the content in that primer's fine and I agree that the threads could be merged. the "outdated" comment is probably just about the way it's worded at the start, which was obviously written pre-GTC. None of the card commentary mentions giant growth either, which has been a huge part of the lists, and I think even mentioning stuff like pyreheart wolf, kessig malcontents, reckless waif and ash zealot makes it look like you're approaching the deck with a pre-GTC RDW mindset, when this deck has moved a long way away from the RDW paradigm. I feel that smiter also deserves mention in the 3 drop slot, particularly if you're also talking about the lists that forgo the ultra-one drop strategy (ie. no boros elite) which it seems you do. Also, avacyn's pilgrim absolutely deserves mentioning for similar reasons (it's the one drop to run if you're not running the boros elite version imo). As I said, you seem to be approaching this as if it's only an iteration of RDW, when the other way of approaching it is with pilgrim/smiter, taking it as an iteration off the GW aggro decks from last season.
Anyway, that's my first thoughts on reading that primer which I hadn't run across probably because it wasn't in the right forum post GTC :).
He's terrible in this deck. The only 1/1 we play that doesn't get bigger is Mayor, and that's only because he makes everyone else bigger instead (plus he occasionally transforms).
Has anyone tried Mark Of Mutiny/Act Of Treason as a way to get around a Boros Reckoner or Thragtusk? I'm using Gruul Charm as well in my sb for a six card package against the midrange decks. I didn't have to test it yet, but in theory it should be good.
There are other anti-Thragtusk options as well. I was thinking of going to old rdw tech Pyreheart Wolf, but it was really slow. A 1/1 that has no immediate impact is not what we want to do on turn 3! Someone else suggested Mugging, and that sounds decent since it can also be used in the mirror or other aggro match ups.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I think most of the content in that primer's fine and I agree that the threads could be merged. the "outdated" comment is probably just about the way it's worded at the start, which was obviously written pre-GTC. None of the card commentary mentions giant growth either, which has been a huge part of the lists, and I think even mentioning stuff like pyreheart wolf, kessig malcontents, reckless waif and ash zealot makes it look like you're approaching the deck with a pre-GTC RDW mindset, when this deck has moved a long way away from the RDW paradigm. I feel that smiter also deserves mention in the 3 drop slot, particularly if you're also talking about the lists that forgo the ultra-one drop strategy (ie. no boros elite) which it seems you do. Also, avacyn's pilgrim absolutely deserves mentioning for similar reasons (it's the one drop to run if you're not running the boros elite version imo). As I said, you seem to be approaching this as if it's only an iteration of RDW, when the other way of approaching it is with pilgrim/smiter, taking it as an iteration off the GW aggro decks from last season.
Anyway, that's my first thoughts on reading that primer which I hadn't run across probably because it wasn't in the right forum post GTC :).
I appreciate the feedback!
The commentary at the beginning could be updated a bit more, but it's still just mostly an introduction to the concept of the deck.
The 'possible card choices' section is very broad and includes a lot of stuff I would never run in the deck at this point, but you still see discussion around cards like Pyreheart Wolf for the purposes of breaking through strong blocking creatures (like Reckoner and Thragtusk). I will tidy it up a bit but I do want to leave certain card choices in there because they do have the potential to be useful should the meta shift in certain ways.
It's funny that you say the primer approaches it from too much of an RDW mindset, because originally it was very much focused on a list of mine that used only 8 1-drops (Champion & Avacyn's Pilgrim), Silverblade Paladin + Frontline Medic, and topped the curve with Hellrider - a list that took a lot more influence from the Naya Human midrange lists of RTR-era standard. I edited it to focus more on the Naya Blitz lists that are curved lower and are faster because they put up more successful results.
As for Loxodon Smiter, I will add it to the potential 3CMC slot but I don't think you'll ever find a convincing reason for these lists to run it over Frontline Medic, and even Reckoner is a way better choice for most matchups. I do understand that it can be much stronger in a more mid-range based list, but the primer is specifically for aggro and not midrange (hence why I don't mention Restoration Angel or any 5CMC card like Zealous Conscripts).
Pilgrim/Smiter/Rancor/Silverblade isn't nearly as successful in this meta due to how powerful Burning-Tree Emissary (and the cards that synergize with it) is. That being said, I will add Smiter to the list because it's a great aggro card and it could potentially be utilized to better effect in the future.
Once again, thank you for the feedback - it was constructive and very much appreciated.
This is my list. Its slightly different from the stock list since it is geared to fight against the Reanimator and Snapcaster decks that I expect to face this weekend. Everyone is hyping reanimator, so now seems like a great time to brush off a card that nerfs Unburial Rites while still being a Savannah Lion!
Having 16 one drops also increases my odds of having an amazing start. I can go t1 dude, t2 dude, dude, t3 swing for a billion way more often, and this is on top of those regular nut draws that the deck already can play.
I have 21 lands to improve my odds of having 2 land hands. This deck mulligans a lot, which I am not comfortable with :/
The SB is experimental. I am excited to try out electrickery as a way to combat Junk's lingering souls and mana dorks. This also seems like mirror and other aggro tech.
Speaking of tech, Mark Of Mutiny is mine for Boros Reckoner & Thragtusk. I found that I just lost after my opponent killed my key dudes and dropped one of these, so hopefully I will be able to get them to tap out for the big guy and give me the blowout.
Some general questions:
- Is it worth boarding in Rest In Peace vs Esper control and UWR, i.e. the Snapcaster Mage decks? It could go either way for me, especially considering that these cards are sweet if the opponent draws Think Twice and Snaps, but lacking otherwise. I think I want to just stay aggressive and let my opponent use their Snaps and flashback cantrips.
- Where are you bringing in Boros Charm? Are you finding it a dead draw, or is it actually doing work for you? You can see that I am running only one, and that is because I found more specific cards for the lists that I expect. I also want to try something like Ranger's Guile or Faith's Shield in that slot. The charm just seems slow, especially considering it goes in where I also bring in Thalia (vs. control).
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
First strike and trample doesn't really seem very relevant, nor is he a human. By turn three he's typically done less damage than boros elite, champion or experiment one as well.
???? Seems that avoiding being chumped/trading with a blocker while still getting in damage has been very relevant for a long time.
SajberT is right about the issue with Loyalist. We don't have large enough creatures to make the abilities worth it, unless we're playing the mirror.
Think of the matchups this deck has. Against control, it's Raging Goblin. Against midrange, it's usually not even half a Falter. In the non-actual aggro mirror, it's passable, but some of the decks have been going bigger (see: Predator Ooze/Gyre Sage), stunting its potential. In the mirror, it's good as long as you're attacking with 3/3's.
You're also, in any matchup, chump attacking with it most of the time. It becomes a card which just reads its ability and then it dies.
Horseshoe: Mutiny's reasonable, though I'd prefer it with a sac outlet for the full blowout. Also I think some Thalias main-deck might slow down reanimator more than having more one-drops, though Militant does help with that...I don't think you need to skew your deck so heavily to beating it considering each version already is a good matchup. They don't want to face blitz as they need time to set up which we don't give.
I'm not convinced about Militant against an open field basically.
And why no searing spear? I find myself wanting to topdeck it much more often than giant growth (so I cut growth).
I would suggest you take out mauler somewhat more often, at least in the matchups where it becomes unnatural speed + a chump block. Basically against lingering souls and Ash Zealot. I could be wrong, but I tend to shave down at least one in most non-control matchups (though even there he's blocked by augur, but that helps get damage through and haste is amazing there).
Against control, I usually take out most, if not all of my searing spears for Boros charms. That's all it looks like you can do.
Is there a reason people are playing Flinthoof Boor over something like Hamlet Captain? Is a 3/3 with sometimes-haste better than something that buffs your team, buffs Champion, and is buffed by Mayor?
Is there a reason people are playing Flinthoof Boor over something like Hamlet Captain? Is a 3/3 with sometimes-haste better than something that buffs your team, buffs Champion, and is buffed by Mayor?
Evolves Experiment One, and is a much better card post-wrath.
He is begging to be equipped or aura'd. The deck itself relies on the creatures being fast and efficient on their own. This guy has no haste and can't combo with BTE. And if he isn't pumped/aura/equipped he is essentially nothing more than 2/2 for 2 mana.
He is one of those cards for casual standard or sealed. Where he is more likely to get what is needed for him to become a threat. In competitive standard he is pretty much garbage in this deck. Even Vexing Devil is a better option.
What about Curse of stalked prey as a 2 of some where in the 75? Can play off of BTE and make sure all our swarmers get better late game
It's pretty winm0ar. Our creatures already kill extremely fast, so its not really going to change the clock any. It doesn't help the match up's weakness either. Which is sputtering out under the pressure of lifegain creatures + sweepers.
Unfortunately for fury, it's an x spell which would go in a deck which wants to putter out on 3 lands and kill turn 4.
At 3 mana, it's worse than geistflame. At 4 mana, it's probably on par with geistflame/pillar. At 5 mana, it's getting reasonable, but generally worse than homing lightning. At 6 mana, you've probably flooded out and the 4 damage fury will generate will not be enough to fireball your opponent out and you probably have almost no/no creatures or hand left with which to pressure the opponent with after taking out a couple guys.
I find fury to be a bad card for constructed on its own. It's definitely not for an aggro deck. Midrange bwr is perhaps its home, but even there it's usually not worth it.
This is my list. Its slightly different from the stock list since it is geared to fight against the Reanimator and Snapcaster decks that I expect to face this weekend. Everyone is hyping reanimator, so now seems like a great time to brush off a card that nerfs Unburial Rites while still being a Savannah Lion!
Having 16 one drops also increases my odds of having an amazing start. I can go t1 dude, t2 dude, dude, t3 swing for a billion way more often, and this is on top of those regular nut draws that the deck already can play.
I have 21 lands to improve my odds of having 2 land hands. This deck mulligans a lot, which I am not comfortable with :/
The SB is experimental. I am excited to try out electrickery as a way to combat Junk's lingering souls and mana dorks. This also seems like mirror and other aggro tech.
Speaking of tech, Mark Of Mutiny is mine for Boros Reckoner & Thragtusk. I found that I just lost after my opponent killed my key dudes and dropped one of these, so hopefully I will be able to get them to tap out for the big guy and give me the blowout.
Some general questions:
- Is it worth boarding in Rest In Peace vs Esper control and UWR, i.e. the Snapcaster Mage decks? It could go either way for me, especially considering that these cards are sweet if the opponent draws Think Twice and Snaps, but lacking otherwise. I think I want to just stay aggressive and let my opponent use their Snaps and flashback cantrips.
- Where are you bringing in Boros Charm? Are you finding it a dead draw, or is it actually doing work for you? You can see that I am running only one, and that is because I found more specific cards for the lists that I expect. I also want to try something like Ranger's Guile or Faith's Shield in that slot. The charm just seems slow, especially considering it goes in where I also bring in Thalia (vs. control).
Hi
Ok so experimental SB; Thalia is Legendary, you really, really, really, do not want two of her in your opening hand, thats like already only playing with 6 cards.
RIP is such a waste of a second or third turn where this deck basically makes or breaks the game. Against flash, they are generally pretty happy we spent a turn playing RIP rather than doig 6-8 to their face, it really throws the tempo in their favor. We are so much faster than reanimator as well that we do not have to worry about them at all. If you really want to side in something for them, I think Dryad Militant is a great card in that SB slot, but MB she doesnt help push out major damage fast enough.
I have 2 Boros charms in my side, and always bring them in against anything playing blue and white. you leave the two mana open t4 for the for sure supreme verdict, and if that doesnt come, you swing next turn then use the 4 to the face ftw in response to them trying to sphinx for 1 lol.
I find Pacifism to be extremely useful for Thrags and Reckoners. For 2 mana it renders them useless, and tusk will basically never make his 3/3 poop. Also, the Urza and Tempest Pacifism has some wonderful flavor text.
What exactly is outdated about the primer? It has the GP Quebec winning Naya Blitz list as the first deck list displayed in the deck list section, and while a few of the "potential card option" listings might be outdated that certainly doesn't apply to the majority of it.
Let me know what you think needs updating. I agree with nagao's assertion that the threads should probably be merged.
Thalia's a mixed bag. While she's phenomenal on the play, on the draw she's less impressive, and she forces us to sacrifice our big turn 2s. She also won't drop off of a BTE, so I'm considering swapping her out for something that will.
As to the mulligan question, I've lost countless matches now trying to stick with a 1 land hand thinking I could draw into a second mana. Meanwhile, I've won games with just 2 lands having never drawn a third. I'd much rather see two mana in my opening hand and not have to worry about finding a third one in the very limited amount of time we have to win.
At this point, my rule of thumb will mulligans is 2 lands, a one drop, and a powerful turn 2 play. It really all hinges on BTE. Almost any one drop will do, though Champion is usually preferable. If I can't have a BTE, I definitely want a Mayor and a couple additional creatures. If I don't see either one, I'm very likely to ship it unless I can map out three or four good turns worth of damage.
The lands I get are also a big factor. I've lost matches with great creatures and nothing but Caverns or buddy lands to go with it. We need the speed that shocks provide or we lose our edge.
I think most of the content in that primer's fine and I agree that the threads could be merged. the "outdated" comment is probably just about the way it's worded at the start, which was obviously written pre-GTC. None of the card commentary mentions giant growth either, which has been a huge part of the lists, and I think even mentioning stuff like pyreheart wolf, kessig malcontents, reckless waif and ash zealot makes it look like you're approaching the deck with a pre-GTC RDW mindset, when this deck has moved a long way away from the RDW paradigm. I feel that smiter also deserves mention in the 3 drop slot, particularly if you're also talking about the lists that forgo the ultra-one drop strategy (ie. no boros elite) which it seems you do. Also, avacyn's pilgrim absolutely deserves mentioning for similar reasons (it's the one drop to run if you're not running the boros elite version imo). As I said, you seem to be approaching this as if it's only an iteration of RDW, when the other way of approaching it is with pilgrim/smiter, taking it as an iteration off the GW aggro decks from last season.
Anyway, that's my first thoughts on reading that primer which I hadn't run across probably because it wasn't in the right forum post GTC :).
There are other anti-Thragtusk options as well. I was thinking of going to old rdw tech Pyreheart Wolf, but it was really slow. A 1/1 that has no immediate impact is not what we want to do on turn 3! Someone else suggested Mugging, and that sounds decent since it can also be used in the mirror or other aggro match ups.
~ Brian DeMars
I appreciate the feedback!
The commentary at the beginning could be updated a bit more, but it's still just mostly an introduction to the concept of the deck.
The 'possible card choices' section is very broad and includes a lot of stuff I would never run in the deck at this point, but you still see discussion around cards like Pyreheart Wolf for the purposes of breaking through strong blocking creatures (like Reckoner and Thragtusk). I will tidy it up a bit but I do want to leave certain card choices in there because they do have the potential to be useful should the meta shift in certain ways.
It's funny that you say the primer approaches it from too much of an RDW mindset, because originally it was very much focused on a list of mine that used only 8 1-drops (Champion & Avacyn's Pilgrim), Silverblade Paladin + Frontline Medic, and topped the curve with Hellrider - a list that took a lot more influence from the Naya Human midrange lists of RTR-era standard. I edited it to focus more on the Naya Blitz lists that are curved lower and are faster because they put up more successful results.
As for Loxodon Smiter, I will add it to the potential 3CMC slot but I don't think you'll ever find a convincing reason for these lists to run it over Frontline Medic, and even Reckoner is a way better choice for most matchups. I do understand that it can be much stronger in a more mid-range based list, but the primer is specifically for aggro and not midrange (hence why I don't mention Restoration Angel or any 5CMC card like Zealous Conscripts).
Pilgrim/Smiter/Rancor/Silverblade isn't nearly as successful in this meta due to how powerful Burning-Tree Emissary (and the cards that synergize with it) is. That being said, I will add Smiter to the list because it's a great aggro card and it could potentially be utilized to better effect in the future.
Once again, thank you for the feedback - it was constructive and very much appreciated.
Having 16 one drops also increases my odds of having an amazing start. I can go t1 dude, t2 dude, dude, t3 swing for a billion way more often, and this is on top of those regular nut draws that the deck already can play.
4 cavern of souls
1 clifftop retreat
1 forest
1 rootbound crag
4 sacred foundry
4 stomping ground
2 sunpetal grove
4 temple garden
4 boros elite
4 burning-tree emissary
4 champion of the parish
4 dryad militant
4 experiment one
4 flinthoof boar
3 frontline medic
4 lightning mauler
4 mayor of avabruck
2 electrickery
2 gruul charm
4 mark of mutiny
2 rest in peace
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
I have 21 lands to improve my odds of having 2 land hands. This deck mulligans a lot, which I am not comfortable with :/
The SB is experimental. I am excited to try out electrickery as a way to combat Junk's lingering souls and mana dorks. This also seems like mirror and other aggro tech.
Speaking of tech, Mark Of Mutiny is mine for Boros Reckoner & Thragtusk. I found that I just lost after my opponent killed my key dudes and dropped one of these, so hopefully I will be able to get them to tap out for the big guy and give me the blowout.
Some general questions:
- Is it worth boarding in Rest In Peace vs Esper control and UWR, i.e. the Snapcaster Mage decks? It could go either way for me, especially considering that these cards are sweet if the opponent draws Think Twice and Snaps, but lacking otherwise. I think I want to just stay aggressive and let my opponent use their Snaps and flashback cantrips.
- Where are you bringing in Boros Charm? Are you finding it a dead draw, or is it actually doing work for you? You can see that I am running only one, and that is because I found more specific cards for the lists that I expect. I also want to try something like Ranger's Guile or Faith's Shield in that slot. The charm just seems slow, especially considering it goes in where I also bring in Thalia (vs. control).
~ Brian DeMars
???? Seems that avoiding being chumped/trading with a blocker while still getting in damage has been very relevant for a long time.
The human thing makes sense though.
Think of the matchups this deck has. Against control, it's Raging Goblin. Against midrange, it's usually not even half a Falter. In the non-actual aggro mirror, it's passable, but some of the decks have been going bigger (see: Predator Ooze/Gyre Sage), stunting its potential. In the mirror, it's good as long as you're attacking with 3/3's.
You're also, in any matchup, chump attacking with it most of the time. It becomes a card which just reads its ability and then it dies.
Horseshoe: Mutiny's reasonable, though I'd prefer it with a sac outlet for the full blowout. Also I think some Thalias main-deck might slow down reanimator more than having more one-drops, though Militant does help with that...I don't think you need to skew your deck so heavily to beating it considering each version already is a good matchup. They don't want to face blitz as they need time to set up which we don't give.
I'm not convinced about Militant against an open field basically.
And why no searing spear? I find myself wanting to topdeck it much more often than giant growth (so I cut growth).
Against control, I usually take out most, if not all of my searing spears for Boros charms. That's all it looks like you can do.
Evolves Experiment One, and is a much better card post-wrath.
Probably the lack of synergy with Burning Tree Emissary, the rest of the two drops can be cast off of it.
He is begging to be equipped or aura'd. The deck itself relies on the creatures being fast and efficient on their own. This guy has no haste and can't combo with BTE. And if he isn't pumped/aura/equipped he is essentially nothing more than 2/2 for 2 mana.
He is one of those cards for casual standard or sealed. Where he is more likely to get what is needed for him to become a threat. In competitive standard he is pretty much garbage in this deck. Even Vexing Devil is a better option.
It's pretty winm0ar. Our creatures already kill extremely fast, so its not really going to change the clock any. It doesn't help the match up's weakness either. Which is sputtering out under the pressure of lifegain creatures + sweepers.
Standard-
WRG-Naya Humans
EDH-
RUG- Animar
RW- Brion Stoutarm
At 3 mana, it's worse than geistflame. At 4 mana, it's probably on par with geistflame/pillar. At 5 mana, it's getting reasonable, but generally worse than homing lightning. At 6 mana, you've probably flooded out and the 4 damage fury will generate will not be enough to fireball your opponent out and you probably have almost no/no creatures or hand left with which to pressure the opponent with after taking out a couple guys.
I find fury to be a bad card for constructed on its own. It's definitely not for an aggro deck. Midrange bwr is perhaps its home, but even there it's usually not worth it.
Hi
Ok so experimental SB; Thalia is Legendary, you really, really, really, do not want two of her in your opening hand, thats like already only playing with 6 cards.
RIP is such a waste of a second or third turn where this deck basically makes or breaks the game. Against flash, they are generally pretty happy we spent a turn playing RIP rather than doig 6-8 to their face, it really throws the tempo in their favor. We are so much faster than reanimator as well that we do not have to worry about them at all. If you really want to side in something for them, I think Dryad Militant is a great card in that SB slot, but MB she doesnt help push out major damage fast enough.
I have 2 Boros charms in my side, and always bring them in against anything playing blue and white. you leave the two mana open t4 for the for sure supreme verdict, and if that doesnt come, you swing next turn then use the 4 to the face ftw in response to them trying to sphinx for 1 lol.
I find Pacifism to be extremely useful for Thrags and Reckoners. For 2 mana it renders them useless, and tusk will basically never make his 3/3 poop. Also, the Urza and Tempest Pacifism has some wonderful flavor text.
It'll force them to hard cast the angel, which buys you time. I've been trying it too, sadly haven't found to many reanimator opponents
Ultimately Junk's Ramp and Humanrite's ability to hardcast will make Ground Seal little more then a delay tactic, but hopefully that's all we need.
Standard-
WRG-Naya Humans
EDH-
RUG- Animar
RW- Brion Stoutarm