It's absolutely vicious. I'm glad you started this thread, I think this deck is worth discussing on it's own as it's very different than the standard naya humans that's been around that's much more mid-ranged.
brad nelson's original list only ran 3 frontline medic, no rampager, and 4 giant growth and 21 land. it also ran 4 fiend hunter in the side.
nearheath pilgrim---- mirror/aggro
boros charm----- supreme verdict/jund
pacifism---- boros reckoner
fiend hunter----- boros reckoner
gruul charm----- stuff that clutters up the ground. also kills nighthawk and lingering souls
thalia---- farseek stuff, control
the deck is a beast. I'm not really sure I like the existence of it since the hate for it makes my red decks a lot harder to play competitively.
of course the real downside to it is it's inconsistency and the fact that if it doesn't get a good start, then it's just going to flounder and die. Once a midrange player starts interacting with the board or a control player gets off a sphinx's revelation/supreme verdict the game is pretty much over.
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I gotta say, I really don't like the list as a long term proposition. Yes, it can pull out surprise wins, but it folds even harder than Rx decks to a single resolved loxodon smiter or any good blocker in general. And if it doesn't win before the verdict hits, it just dies. It's a one trick pony, naya aggro decks in general have a longer term future imo but not this version.
I gotta say, I really don't like the list as a long term proposition. Yes, it can pull out surprise wins, but it folds even harder than Rx decks to a single resolved loxodon smiter or any good blocker in general. And if it doesn't win before the verdict hits, it just dies. It's a one trick pony, naya aggro decks in general have a longer term future imo but not this version.
On paper I don't disagree with you but the results speak for themselves. This deck just won a gp and if you put any stock in mtgo its been winning there too, generally finishing first and/or going 4-0. Its kinda similar to the old affinity decks, no gas but very explosive. Personally I feel this deck is very legit and while it certainly has weaknesses so does virtually every deck in the format. One thing I do know for sure, its far more aggressive than what zombies was and that ended up winning its fair share pre gatecrash.
In terms of playing aggro, this would be my choice, tho I think eventually mid range will adapt more and cause this deck to consider its "all in" strategy. Cards like supreme verdict will really hurt but usually by that time my opponent is close to dead anyways. It has the same issue other aggro decks do, board wipes and life gain. Imo that doesn't make this deck weak it makes it balanced....
Built this and 4-0 FNM with my last two rounds against UWR control and UWR tempo. Won both 2-0. Granted, only saw one supreme verdict, but my opponent was at 4 and I drew a Hellrider like a a lucky son of a *****.
The deck just explodes, and it has multiple paths to turn 3 or 4 kills. Sure it doesn't have any staying power, but it punishes any slight durdle your opponent makes and practically requires several removal spells or a a supreme verdict.
I'm pretty sure 4x frontline medic is pretty much a requirement. card is sooo good. I think the only matchup I don't really care for it in is against esper control.
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Seeing this deck pop up all over mtgo... It's really hard to interact with once it starts cheating dudes onto the board with BTE or gets battalion online, at least from a R/w aggro players point of view.
I've yet to decide which style I will play for the DC Open two weeks from now. I've been playing the Midrange version, but it seems to fold very easily vs Naya, the aristocrats and Ur/w/r decks with mortars. It seems like the best midrange decks are running reckoner which the deck has a really hard time beating.
The blitz version on the other hand seems to have a pretty decent matchup against most of the metagame, the exception being Esper control, but I don't see that deck popping out too much right at the moment.
3/4 Fiend hunter seems like the right line of play on the sb right now since as of yesterday the last Top 8 was filled with reckoners.
I am debating building this deck on mtgo... But, I am also looking at jund aggro. Can anyone give me some insight on the 2 decks. Pros and cons would be great. Also I hear a lot about people hating out naya blitz. Will this affect Jund aggro the same?
To some degree yes, since they both have several copies of the same cards working as the core of the deck. Flinthoof boar, burning-tree emissary, experiment one, searing spear, lightning mauller, etc. Your turns 1-2 are essentially the same strategy, so theoretically whatever works to stop you with naya will have a similar impact in Jund(Ex: Reckoner, nearhearth); However, both decks will deal with disruption in a very distinctive way. Naya for example will have pacifism/Bonds of Faith to deal with reckoner, whereas jund would use abrupt decay to get rid of him.
As for the pros and cons I would say naya is arguably the fastest of the 2 decks. Obviously because of this your control matches are awful game 1 specially if you are on the draw. The deck is also very resilient post sideboard though, and plays pretty nicely with itself as you have a sub tribal theme behind the aggro nature of the deck. jund triumphs in being an all around good deck since the colors give you quite a number of options to shape your sideboard according to the metagame. Plus it doesn't fold as easily vs control.
Thus I would choose naya blitz as my aggro choice, and jund as my midrange one, as the plethora of spells the color combination gives you works better in a control-type Kind of deck(Big Jund). Not to say the aggro version is strictly worse, but given the current metagame naya seems to perform better as an aggro deck while jund appears to have a pretty solid control shell.
Boros Charm saves us from board-wipes (assuming we don't get medic running) while Gruul Charm is a middle-finger to Lingering Souls and allows for an alpha-strike before they can stabilize.
Just wondering, but is there a reason that Dryad Militant doesn't see play in this other than it being non-human? There aren't that many ways to push an Experiment One over 3/3 (at least not in Brad Nelson's list), and it's a reliable 2 vs. the battalion 3 on Boros Elite. The exiling spells thing is just a bonus that helps shut down reanimator and other funky decks game 1.
I'm not saying it's flawless or anything, but it seems like a very decent 1 drop that almost no one bothers to include, and I'm wondering if the reason why is escaping me.
Non human is a big one (anti-synergy with cavern, mayor, CoP), but also there's no shortage of one drop options. I'd rather run wolfbitten captive before I ran militant.
Boros Charm saves us from board-wipes (assuming we don't get medic running) while Gruul Charm is a middle-finger to Lingering Souls and allows for an alpha-strike before they can stabilize.
it really depends on your meta, but I wouldn't cut experiment for them. Experiment is just another 1 mana 2/2. It's a bonus when it gets to 3/3 though. I think he's slightly better than elite though.
Non human is a big one (anti-synergy with cavern, mayor, CoP), but also there's no shortage of one drop options. I'd rather run wolfbitten captive before I ran militant.
Makes sense. I sorta brainfarted and forgot about Mayor. Don't know how I managed that one.
I may end up sleeving this up for tomorrow night, haven't decided yet. I don't have any Frontline Medics is the only thing. I could probably scrounge them up around town this afternoon, but I'm debating just running it with Silverblade Paladin instead. I realize it's squishier, but it saves me the effort.
How have you guys found flinthoof boar? He kinda feels lackluster to me. I only run 8 mountains and while the haste is great hes often a 2/2 for 2 with a haste option (that I can't always trigger) which feels meh to me. Thinking about swapping him, maybe go with thalia main since theres more control than aggro here. Thoughts?
Yeah, I only really side thalia in when I cut BTEs. The anti-synergy there really hurts, I wouldn't run them together main-deck personally.
I usually bring thalia in for stuff like giant growth. I never cut BTE.
chainwalker could be a decent substitute for the boar, but the boar is such a great post-wrath play, whether it's a 3/3 or a 2/2. Also the added haste to the deck really helps to ensure your battalion triggers. The biggest part of the boar is the ability to give him haste. Even if you don't have a mountain it's still a 2/2 for 2, which isn't that bad.
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I am debating building this deck on mtgo... But, I am also looking at jund aggro. Can anyone give me some insight on the 2 decks. Pros and cons would be great. Also I hear a lot about people hating out naya blitz. Will this affect Jund aggro the same?
Aggro seems to be the main meta right now. So of course people are gonna hate it out. And generally it will be the same hate against all aggro decks as they run similar strategies. Hell even your own sideboard or Main deck should have things to deal with mirrors and other aggro decks.
Naya Pros:
-Great selection of creatures available to put in the hurt fast and good.
-Better selection mid game creatures such Medic, Silverblade, Minotaur, and Elephant.
-Thalia screws over many things.
-Selesnya and Boros Charms are options.
Cons:
-Aside from the charms your other spell base is pretty weak. Even O-rings at 3mana is kinda steep for aggro.
-If you lose steam you lose the game.
Jund Pros:
-Great selection of support spells that help you deal with anything. Abrupt Decay, Dreadbore, Slaughter Games, and all the other black stuff.
- Vampire Nighthawk laughs at other aggro.
- Vampire Aristocrat laughs at everyone.
- More resilient late to midgame.
Cons:
- early game creature drops are not as good as Nayas.
- Not as hyper aggressive as many other aggro decks.
Odric isn't a battalion. Note that it's four creatures, not three, who have to attack. That's a fair bit harder (and you can accomplish the same thing with a Gruul Charm from the sideboard).
The Riders in the SB are a wild card. I'm debating between those, or 2x Skullcrack depending on who shows up tonight. The only changes from Nelson's list are dropping Flinthoof in exchange for Thalia and Silverblade main deck. As much as I like it when Flinthoof drops as a 3/3 on turn 2, not activating Champion effectively evens out the damage potential. Thalia is just a metagame choice, as there's a lot of control players locally, whereas Silverblade can nicely pair to a 3/3 or 4/4 Champion on turn 3 for a potential free win.
I should probably swap the Rootbound for a Clifftop Retreat, but I don't have any on hand so it'll just have to stay for now.
Medic is used mainly for his battalion trigger with the extra bonus of stopping medium sized revelations/devastating bonfires. He's been VERY good for me, allowing me to attack into resto mana or thragtusk when otherwise I'd just be dead.
Odric is very good...but we don't super often get to 4 mana and if you are, chances are you may barely have enough creatures to activate him...and then you're blown out by a single removal spell. Very high risk.
Mentor doesn't conform to the beatdown plan well. Could be good against some of the midrange decks in an attrition battle though. I've found that rarely happens...
Raiders is interesting, but again, 4 cmc is a pain.
Cambriel: How have you been liking the 2 md Thalias? I went from 0 to 1 because of the amount of esper online but I'm not sure about a 2nd yet.
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Thanks
I'm not sure which exact list Brad Nelson used but I know it was very similar to what Nico Christiansen ran in GP Quebec City. Here's his decklist
4 Boros Elite
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Experiment One
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Frontline Medic
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Rootbound Crag
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
3 Sunpetal Grove
4 Temple Garden
Spells (7)
3 Giant Growth
4 Searing Spear
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Nearheath Pilgrim
3 Pacifism
3 Boros Charm
2 Gruul Charm
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
It's absolutely vicious. I'm glad you started this thread, I think this deck is worth discussing on it's own as it's very different than the standard naya humans that's been around that's much more mid-ranged.
nearheath pilgrim---- mirror/aggro
boros charm----- supreme verdict/jund
pacifism---- boros reckoner
fiend hunter----- boros reckoner
gruul charm----- stuff that clutters up the ground. also kills nighthawk and lingering souls
thalia---- farseek stuff, control
the deck is a beast. I'm not really sure I like the existence of it since the hate for it makes my red decks a lot harder to play competitively.
of course the real downside to it is it's inconsistency and the fact that if it doesn't get a good start, then it's just going to flounder and die. Once a midrange player starts interacting with the board or a control player gets off a sphinx's revelation/supreme verdict the game is pretty much over.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
On paper I don't disagree with you but the results speak for themselves. This deck just won a gp and if you put any stock in mtgo its been winning there too, generally finishing first and/or going 4-0. Its kinda similar to the old affinity decks, no gas but very explosive. Personally I feel this deck is very legit and while it certainly has weaknesses so does virtually every deck in the format. One thing I do know for sure, its far more aggressive than what zombies was and that ended up winning its fair share pre gatecrash.
In terms of playing aggro, this would be my choice, tho I think eventually mid range will adapt more and cause this deck to consider its "all in" strategy. Cards like supreme verdict will really hurt but usually by that time my opponent is close to dead anyways. It has the same issue other aggro decks do, board wipes and life gain. Imo that doesn't make this deck weak it makes it balanced....
The deck just explodes, and it has multiple paths to turn 3 or 4 kills. Sure it doesn't have any staying power, but it punishes any slight durdle your opponent makes and practically requires several removal spells or a a supreme verdict.
Standard-
WRG-Naya Humans
EDH-
RUG- Animar
RW- Brion Stoutarm
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
The blitz version on the other hand seems to have a pretty decent matchup against most of the metagame, the exception being Esper control, but I don't see that deck popping out too much right at the moment.
3/4 Fiend hunter seems like the right line of play on the sb right now since as of yesterday the last Top 8 was filled with reckoners.
URBURB
As for the pros and cons I would say naya is arguably the fastest of the 2 decks. Obviously because of this your control matches are awful game 1 specially if you are on the draw. The deck is also very resilient post sideboard though, and plays pretty nicely with itself as you have a sub tribal theme behind the aggro nature of the deck. jund triumphs in being an all around good deck since the colors give you quite a number of options to shape your sideboard according to the metagame. Plus it doesn't fold as easily vs control.
Thus I would choose naya blitz as my aggro choice, and jund as my midrange one, as the plethora of spells the color combination gives you works better in a control-type Kind of deck(Big Jund). Not to say the aggro version is strictly worse, but given the current metagame naya seems to perform better as an aggro deck while jund appears to have a pretty solid control shell.
URBURB
giant growth has nver been so good
Chile!
Boros Charm saves us from board-wipes (assuming we don't get medic running) while Gruul Charm is a middle-finger to Lingering Souls and allows for an alpha-strike before they can stabilize.
I'm not saying it's flawless or anything, but it seems like a very decent 1 drop that almost no one bothers to include, and I'm wondering if the reason why is escaping me.
it really depends on your meta, but I wouldn't cut experiment for them. Experiment is just another 1 mana 2/2. It's a bonus when it gets to 3/3 though. I think he's slightly better than elite though.
Here's what I'm currently running
4 temple garden
4 sacred foundry
4 cavern of souls
2 sunpetal grove
2 rootbound crag
4 champion of the parish
4 boros elite
4 experiment one
4 mayor of avabruck
4 lightning mauler
4 flinthoof boar
4 burning-tree emissary
3 frontline medic
2 ghor-clan rampager
3 giant growth
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 fiend hunter
3 pacifism
3 boros charm
2 gruul charm
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Makes sense. I sorta brainfarted and forgot about Mayor. Don't know how I managed that one.
I may end up sleeving this up for tomorrow night, haven't decided yet. I don't have any Frontline Medics is the only thing. I could probably scrounge them up around town this afternoon, but I'm debating just running it with Silverblade Paladin instead. I realize it's squishier, but it saves me the effort.
I usually bring thalia in for stuff like giant growth. I never cut BTE.
chainwalker could be a decent substitute for the boar, but the boar is such a great post-wrath play, whether it's a 3/3 or a 2/2. Also the added haste to the deck really helps to ensure your battalion triggers. The biggest part of the boar is the ability to give him haste. Even if you don't have a mountain it's still a 2/2 for 2, which isn't that bad.
Modern:
Twinning End
Commander:
Mayael the Anema
Aggro seems to be the main meta right now. So of course people are gonna hate it out. And generally it will be the same hate against all aggro decks as they run similar strategies. Hell even your own sideboard or Main deck should have things to deal with mirrors and other aggro decks.
Naya Pros:
-Great selection of creatures available to put in the hurt fast and good.
-Better selection mid game creatures such Medic, Silverblade, Minotaur, and Elephant.
-Thalia screws over many things.
-Selesnya and Boros Charms are options.
Cons:
-Aside from the charms your other spell base is pretty weak. Even O-rings at 3mana is kinda steep for aggro.
-If you lose steam you lose the game.
Jund Pros:
-Great selection of support spells that help you deal with anything. Abrupt Decay, Dreadbore, Slaughter Games, and all the other black stuff.
- Vampire Nighthawk laughs at other aggro.
- Vampire Aristocrat laughs at everyone.
- More resilient late to midgame.
Cons:
- early game creature drops are not as good as Nayas.
- Not as hyper aggressive as many other aggro decks.
Is Frontline Medic mainly being used for his Battalion ability when he attacks?
I would think the battalion on Odric, Master Tactician would be immensely better than Frontlines.
Does Mentor of the Meek not have a place in this deck, or based on the deck type Rubblebelt Raiders.
Here's the list I'm planning to run tonight:
4x Boros Elite
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Experiment One
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Lightning Mauler
4x Mayor of Avabruck
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Frontline Medic
2x Silverblade Paladin
4x Searing Spear
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Rootbound Crag
4x Sacred Foundry
4x Stomping Ground
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
2x Gruul Charm
2x Pacifism
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Fiend Hunter
2x Riders of Gavony
The Riders in the SB are a wild card. I'm debating between those, or 2x Skullcrack depending on who shows up tonight. The only changes from Nelson's list are dropping Flinthoof in exchange for Thalia and Silverblade main deck. As much as I like it when Flinthoof drops as a 3/3 on turn 2, not activating Champion effectively evens out the damage potential. Thalia is just a metagame choice, as there's a lot of control players locally, whereas Silverblade can nicely pair to a 3/3 or 4/4 Champion on turn 3 for a potential free win.
I should probably swap the Rootbound for a Clifftop Retreat, but I don't have any on hand so it'll just have to stay for now.
Medic is used mainly for his battalion trigger with the extra bonus of stopping medium sized revelations/devastating bonfires. He's been VERY good for me, allowing me to attack into resto mana or thragtusk when otherwise I'd just be dead.
Odric is very good...but we don't super often get to 4 mana and if you are, chances are you may barely have enough creatures to activate him...and then you're blown out by a single removal spell. Very high risk.
Mentor doesn't conform to the beatdown plan well. Could be good against some of the midrange decks in an attrition battle though. I've found that rarely happens...
Raiders is interesting, but again, 4 cmc is a pain.
Cambriel: How have you been liking the 2 md Thalias? I went from 0 to 1 because of the amount of esper online but I'm not sure about a 2nd yet.