I've been playing cavern for about a week now, and have had really no mana issues. 2-3 awkward hands, that was all. I'm playing 2 kessig & 2 caverns, too.
Boll, what's your list looking like these days? It sounds like I might have to take out Primal Hunter to fit Caverns into the mana base.
Is it time to maindeck duress? These u/w decks are packing a lot of counters. Snapcaster can flash them back, but at least you're not dealing with the same counter twice.
I really like deathrite. It gives the deck a strong opening outside of farseek. He can sit there and be a mini-olivia - beat your opponent with your mana.
Even though I'm running 4 Colorless, I still have 16/24 green mana, and I rarely have issues casting Primal Hunter - and I'm talking outside of farseek. With a farseek, he's not trouble at all.
Abrupt decay has been relevant and fine as a 2-of MB. Bonfire, KWR and Olivia continue to be the stars of the deck. My sideboard is
Duress > AfB for me currently. I'm leaning on Slaughter Games and my MB shaman's to pull me through the reanimator matchup, and I like have lili + duress in side for gost/control.
So you can play Primal Hunter AND Caverns in the same deck? Hmmm. I've been too afraid to give it a shot because a few time's I've had issues getting Primal Hunter on the field on turn 5 so I had to play Thragtusk and wait for turn 6 or 7 to throw down the PW.
It's really weird how similar your deck is to mine now. Basically the only difference now is Mortars v Bonfire, and I'm already at the point where I could switch back.
So you can play Primal Hunter AND Caverns in the same deck? Hmmm. I've been too afraid to give it a shot because a few time's I've had issues getting Primal Hunter on the field on turn 5 so I had to play Thragtusk and wait for turn 6 or 7 to throw down the PW.
It's really weird how similar your deck is to mine now. Basically the only difference now is Mortars v Bonfire, and I'm already at the point where I could switch back.
For me it's the 4 Forest. Cavern pressures me into not running Dragonskull summits just so I can t2 farseek & GGG viable.
Bonfire hits planeswalkers which was more relevant to me than creature wipes. I've seen less and less creature board states. The only matchup where mizzium is just crazy is g/w humans. And that's something to think abou b/c that deck is everywhere currently.
You could play more Bonfires against GW and still do well. Mortars is good only if you're not okay with Searing Spear being in your deck.
I'm quite a fan of 4 colorless lands MD. There has only been one game (out of the hundreds) where it hurt bad enough to cause a loss, but to be fair, he did get an early acidic slime and reanimated it quite a few times.
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You could play more Bonfires against GW and still do well. Mortars is good only if you're not okay with Searing Spear being in your deck.
My fear with Bonfire is that my deck is a little removal heavy, I think 10-12 removal cards. So I'm always afraid that I'll miracle Bonfire and he'll have 1 creature out because I dreadbore'd something T2 and then searing spear'd something T3. But with Mortars I can at least plan out 2 for 1s and gain advantage that way.
My fear with Bonfire is that my deck is a little removal heavy, I think 10-12 removal cards. So I'm always afraid that I'll miracle Bonfire and he'll have 1 creature out because I dreadbore'd something T2 and then searing spear'd something T3. But with Mortars I can at least plan out 2 for 1s and gain advantage that way.
But remember it also domes them, a miracle bonfire for 8 that only hits 1 creatures is still outstanding, since it leaves them 8 points closer to death, or removes 8 counters from a planeswalker that is causing problems.
But remember it also domes them, a miracle bonfire for 8 that only hits 1 creatures is still outstanding, since it leaves them 8 points closer to death, or removes 8 counters from a planeswalker that is causing problems.
Yeah...
But I'm thinking about the average case where it's a Bonfire for 3. Which back in the day would've been devestating because you are throwing creatures on the table and they have to keep up and that's when you 3-4 for 1 them. Now that's a 1 for 1, 2 for 1 at best and they take 3 damage.
Back in the day, when we 2-for-1'd our opponents with Bloodbraid Elves, we said "You're welcome." Now, you say, "I'm sorry I Bonfire'd you for 3, and killed your guy."?
I think remembering that the ability to blow everything off the board and dome your opponent or planeswalker that's occasionally printed on every copy of Bonfire in your deck is a good thing.
Or, similarly. You know your opponent is tapped out, do you cast a Rakdos's Return for x<# of cards in hand, or do you cast it as x=all your mana? Personally, it's x=all my mana.
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I think remembering that the ability to blow everything off the board and dome your opponent or planeswalker that's occasionally printed on every copy of Bonfire in your deck is a good thing.
Or, similarly. You know your opponent is tapped out, do you cast a Rakdos's Return for x<# of cards in hand, or do you cast it as x=all your mana? Personally, it's x=all my mana.
Of course all of your mana. But I guess the point I was making was that if the blowout potential that Bonfire used to have isn't there anymore because of the design of the deck itself. There is no way of knowing when you'll miracle Bonfire so you can't let your opponent get a few creatures on the table and then just take them all out at the same time.
I mean... that being said, there is something to the potential of drawing the card late game and it being an extra fireball.
Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
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Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
See... I don't exactly disagree of the effectiveness of Bonfire in that role. But usually how it works... at least back when I was playing beatdown was I'd beat face and get them below 10 and then they'd stabilize with a Titan or some kind of effect. And I'd be in a scenario where I think "I'm losing right now... but if I miracle Bonfire in the next few turns the game is basically over" because it would wipe the board, deal 6-7 damage to the dome and I'd be able to get in the last 5-6 damage I need with my own creatures.
But because the deck has evolved into something less creature heavy and more removal heavy, that situation flat out doesn't pop up anymore. Back in the day someone hitting a Thragtusk was bad because of the lifegain and the fact that it was a big threat and slowed us down in terms of damage. But now its bad because it's a 2 for 1 against us. If someone plays an Angel, we just use removal and take the card advantage hit we just gave them. So there is a lot less "I need to Bonfire in order to turn this loss into a win" and it basically just becomes a random fireball that may or may not even be lethal damage.
Just saying, a Bonfire for 3 even full mana against GW isn't ever that bad, and having the "oops, I win" factor come up is better than not at all.
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Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
It looks like 3 color decks are able to just slot in a couple of Cavern, at the expense of other utility lands. If that continues to happen, decks like UWr and UW Tempo will completely fall off.
The main reason that they have been doing so well is because of Essence Scatter.
" If that continues to happen, decks like UWr and UW Tempo will completely fall off."
This is not true at all.
The decks are still really really good.
2 cavern of souls main deck in a deck like Jund doesn't just suddenly make it so all of our threats will resolve.
We'll only draw a cavern like 40% of the time or whatever and can only name it for one creature type.
Most Jund lists run like 2 answers to pike, so if U/W gets to resolve a pike they can still fight through thragtusks or whatever.
Restoration angel backed up with counter magic against answers is a ***** to deal with, anyway you slice it.
In this format, the dominant decks are almost all 3+ colors and share very few creature types.
An increase in cavern of souls will not hate these decks from the metagame.
I'd argue that without cavern of souls, they would be the best decks in the format. Now, they will just be relegated to one of the many top decks.
Just saying, a Bonfire for 3 even full mana against GW isn't ever that bad, and having the "oops, I win" factor come up is better than not at all.
That's exactly what I'm saying though is I think it is bad to T4 Bonfire against GW. Because against GW they play their T1 dork, then their turn 2 paladin. And you play T2 Searing Spear or w/e. Then they play T3 Smiter and you Dreadbore it. And then they play w/e the turn after... maybe another paladin. And then T4 is when you miracle Bonfire. And it's barely a 2 for 1. Had you known
Back in the days when I was playing GR beatdown, if this scenario had played out the same I'd have a Strangleroot Giest and Huntmaster on the field, maybe a rancor on one of them. And my opponent would have the Paladin's and Smiter on the board and I wouldn't be able to profitably attack into it. This is when Bonfire for 3 would be a complete blow out because not only do I 3 for 1 them, but it clears the board for my guys to attack.
But now a days, Jund is really good about being able to keep the creature count down to just 1-2 and so those random Bonfires aren't really as effective.
That's not to say I think it's a bad card. Because there's the aformentioned Fireball effect, and it deals with Giest even if you have to hardcast it. I'd make the argument Mortars is better against GW because you can plan game states so that you blow out your opponent more often.
Maybe it's a moot point though if I want to add Caverns to the deck, I'd probably have to switch back to Bonfire and that would allow me to completely sell out on green lands.
Sure, Bonfire is highly situational in that you can't predict it off the top, and when you have to hardcast it, you might not get maximum blowouts, as paying X twice isn't optimal, but in the end, we have to take value where we can find/get it. I personally prefer to have more Bonfires rather than less, to add the "oops, I win" factor to my deck and to play a reliably powerful card.
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Nocturnal God of Chaos of The Æsir Probably the most random person you will ever meet. Trust me on this one. Well, I'm off to poop.
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"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
i've been running 2 caverns, 1 wolf run with no issues at all on lands but im playing heavy on black and running 2x Underworld connections and 2x liliana of the veil, No Primals.
WBR midrange doesnt have a chance.. and the same antimeta goes hard against the new u/w Flash that will be rising on the following weeks.
Buut im scared that those decks can adapt and get ghost quarters instead of desolate lighthouse/slayer strongholds to destroy our utility lands. So im thinking in rebuilding my land base to get Garruks as a primary draw engine instead of Underworld connections due to the ghost quarters if i start seeing them on those decks.
btw what are you opinions on the finalist of SCG dallas open. I believe that list needs a close study bout the amount of instants hes playing.
I also added a couple of caverns along with my lone wolf run about a week ago. Played in a pretty sizable tourney this last weekend and for the most part, still with the caverns, before side boarding, I had about a 20% win ratio against the W/U Flash/Counter type decks in game one . . . and boy did I see a lot of them. Some were heavier of the counter type spells and some more the removal type spells . . . but both were extremely difficult. My #1 star was Olivia . . . bar none. I decided to run nighthawks which made my caverns for Vampire that much better, but my second cavern got jammed between human/beast/demon choices (I never needed to name Shaman) . . . and continuously getting returned to the library/hand lost soooo much tempo I often couldn't catch up when coupled with the other removal. My deathrite was sometimes awesome and sometimes just a tempo loss with me trying over and over to keep him on the field. I had very few mana issues but did cost me in a game three match (flooded). I have updated my list with farseeks to help my mid/late game draws. Any advice from any one else with this 'W/U' issue??? I am almost considering adding a third cavern but am very concerned as far as colored mana is concerned.
I'm having a lot of trouble against green white aggro/midrange too, and bonfire isn't that great. Id say we still need it but loxodons are good against it and, puts you in a hard position with Jund where if you run so much removal to kill these decks then Bonfire is just a "need this to keep playing" or a fireball.
It's much better along side creatures, and so I still advocate playing Vampire Nighthawks alongside Olivia, Thrags and Huntmasters in hopes even in the aggro match ups a mid-game bonfire still nets me a few hits with the creatures on my field.
The downside to not running bonfire is Sigarda, GoSt, Invisible Stalker.
It still hold it's own against U/W aggro, Jund, Zombies and maybe U/Wr/Flash
Gott say having to run 5-6 different removal spells is really unfortunate
I really like deathrite. It gives the deck a strong opening outside of farseek. He can sit there and be a mini-olivia - beat your opponent with your mana.
Even though I'm running 4 Colorless, I still have 16/24 green mana, and I rarely have issues casting Primal Hunter - and I'm talking outside of farseek. With a farseek, he's not trouble at all.
Abrupt decay has been relevant and fine as a 2-of MB. Bonfire, KWR and Olivia continue to be the stars of the deck. My sideboard is
Duress > AfB for me currently. I'm leaning on Slaughter Games and my MB shaman's to pull me through the reanimator matchup, and I like have lili + duress in side for gost/control.
I am running just 2 farseeks mainboard now . . . but the 'new' heavy emphasis on the W/U type decks has beaten the snot out of me this weekend. In a total of 14 matches between three different tournaments at two different shops I saw that type of deck 9 times. I have gone to one bonfire and been bringing in rolling temblor a lot. I also brought in nighthawks and a Desecration Demon that will never leave this deck, ever. He is such an immediate threat that I virtually never ever attacked with him, but forced my opponent to almost always immediately change their game plans which was always to my advantage (eventually). I just am wondering iffn I need to add an additional cavern and what else could I do mainboard against these decks???
I'm having a lot of trouble against green white aggro/midrange too, and bonfire isn't that great. Id say we still need it but loxodons are good against it and, puts you in a hard position with Jund where if you run so much removal to kill these decks then Bonfire is just a "need this to keep playing" or a fireball.
It's much better along side creatures, and so I still advocate playing Vampire Nighthawks alongside Olivia, Thrags and Huntmasters in hopes even in the aggro match ups a mid-game bonfire still nets me a few hits with the creatures on my field.
The downside to not running bonfire is Sigarda, GoSt, Invisible Stalker.
It still hold it's own against U/W aggro, Jund, Zombies and maybe U/Wr/Flash
Gott say having to run 5-6 different removal spells is really unfortunate
I agree . . . and have been having to keep 2 nighthawks and 2 Mortars main deck just for these. Nighthawks have become by best protection against Sigarda but Rootborn Defenses and similar cards have been an issue. I only have one bonfire and seems to be working so far. I also have been running just one Bloodline and long with one Vraska . . . and still not certain if that is best or not.
Searing Spear instead of Pillar of flame (+probably because of the shift from zombies to gw).
2 shaman main and only 2 olivia, and 2 caverns.
I don't really like cavern.
Any thoughts on that decklist?
Where I am, I see Snap (U/W something) every single tourney . . . and every other match (or so). I had to add 2 caverns and looking @ a 3rd just to pretend to have a chance. I do think I will go from 4 pillars to 2 and add 2 spears. Seems like quite a bit of */3 verses */2 now days.
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Boll, what's your list looking like these days? It sounds like I might have to take out Primal Hunter to fit Caverns into the mana base.
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4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Olivia Voldaren
4 Thragtusk
3 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Rakdos Keyrune
3 Dreadbore
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Blood Crypt
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Forest
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Cavern of Souls
I really like deathrite. It gives the deck a strong opening outside of farseek. He can sit there and be a mini-olivia - beat your opponent with your mana.
Even though I'm running 4 Colorless, I still have 16/24 green mana, and I rarely have issues casting Primal Hunter - and I'm talking outside of farseek. With a farseek, he's not trouble at all.
Abrupt decay has been relevant and fine as a 2-of MB. Bonfire, KWR and Olivia continue to be the stars of the deck. My sideboard is
2 Slaughter Games
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Rolling Temblor
1 Underworld Connections
Duress > AfB for me currently. I'm leaning on Slaughter Games and my MB shaman's to pull me through the reanimator matchup, and I like have lili + duress in side for gost/control.
It's really weird how similar your deck is to mine now. Basically the only difference now is Mortars v Bonfire, and I'm already at the point where I could switch back.
For me it's the 4 Forest. Cavern pressures me into not running Dragonskull summits just so I can t2 farseek & GGG viable.
Bonfire hits planeswalkers which was more relevant to me than creature wipes. I've seen less and less creature board states. The only matchup where mizzium is just crazy is g/w humans. And that's something to think abou b/c that deck is everywhere currently.
I'm quite a fan of 4 colorless lands MD. There has only been one game (out of the hundreds) where it hurt bad enough to cause a loss, but to be fair, he did get an early acidic slime and reanimated it quite a few times.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
My fear with Bonfire is that my deck is a little removal heavy, I think 10-12 removal cards. So I'm always afraid that I'll miracle Bonfire and he'll have 1 creature out because I dreadbore'd something T2 and then searing spear'd something T3. But with Mortars I can at least plan out 2 for 1s and gain advantage that way.
But remember it also domes them, a miracle bonfire for 8 that only hits 1 creatures is still outstanding, since it leaves them 8 points closer to death, or removes 8 counters from a planeswalker that is causing problems.
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Yeah...
But I'm thinking about the average case where it's a Bonfire for 3. Which back in the day would've been devestating because you are throwing creatures on the table and they have to keep up and that's when you 3-4 for 1 them. Now that's a 1 for 1, 2 for 1 at best and they take 3 damage.
I think remembering that the ability to blow everything off the board and dome your opponent or planeswalker that's occasionally printed on every copy of Bonfire in your deck is a good thing.
Or, similarly. You know your opponent is tapped out, do you cast a Rakdos's Return for x<# of cards in hand, or do you cast it as x=all your mana? Personally, it's x=all my mana.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
Of course all of your mana. But I guess the point I was making was that if the blowout potential that Bonfire used to have isn't there anymore because of the design of the deck itself. There is no way of knowing when you'll miracle Bonfire so you can't let your opponent get a few creatures on the table and then just take them all out at the same time.
I mean... that being said, there is something to the potential of drawing the card late game and it being an extra fireball.
This.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
See... I don't exactly disagree of the effectiveness of Bonfire in that role. But usually how it works... at least back when I was playing beatdown was I'd beat face and get them below 10 and then they'd stabilize with a Titan or some kind of effect. And I'd be in a scenario where I think "I'm losing right now... but if I miracle Bonfire in the next few turns the game is basically over" because it would wipe the board, deal 6-7 damage to the dome and I'd be able to get in the last 5-6 damage I need with my own creatures.
But because the deck has evolved into something less creature heavy and more removal heavy, that situation flat out doesn't pop up anymore. Back in the day someone hitting a Thragtusk was bad because of the lifegain and the fact that it was a big threat and slowed us down in terms of damage. But now its bad because it's a 2 for 1 against us. If someone plays an Angel, we just use removal and take the card advantage hit we just gave them. So there is a lot less "I need to Bonfire in order to turn this loss into a win" and it basically just becomes a random fireball that may or may not even be lethal damage.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
" If that continues to happen, decks like UWr and UW Tempo will completely fall off."
This is not true at all.
The decks are still really really good.
2 cavern of souls main deck in a deck like Jund doesn't just suddenly make it so all of our threats will resolve.
We'll only draw a cavern like 40% of the time or whatever and can only name it for one creature type.
Most Jund lists run like 2 answers to pike, so if U/W gets to resolve a pike they can still fight through thragtusks or whatever.
Restoration angel backed up with counter magic against answers is a ***** to deal with, anyway you slice it.
In this format, the dominant decks are almost all 3+ colors and share very few creature types.
An increase in cavern of souls will not hate these decks from the metagame.
I'd argue that without cavern of souls, they would be the best decks in the format. Now, they will just be relegated to one of the many top decks.
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the Lingering Souls addition to the Modern Jund deck is tech for the mirror match. it's really not something the Standard Jund deck is calling for
That's exactly what I'm saying though is I think it is bad to T4 Bonfire against GW. Because against GW they play their T1 dork, then their turn 2 paladin. And you play T2 Searing Spear or w/e. Then they play T3 Smiter and you Dreadbore it. And then they play w/e the turn after... maybe another paladin. And then T4 is when you miracle Bonfire. And it's barely a 2 for 1. Had you known
Back in the days when I was playing GR beatdown, if this scenario had played out the same I'd have a Strangleroot Giest and Huntmaster on the field, maybe a rancor on one of them. And my opponent would have the Paladin's and Smiter on the board and I wouldn't be able to profitably attack into it. This is when Bonfire for 3 would be a complete blow out because not only do I 3 for 1 them, but it clears the board for my guys to attack.
But now a days, Jund is really good about being able to keep the creature count down to just 1-2 and so those random Bonfires aren't really as effective.
That's not to say I think it's a bad card. Because there's the aformentioned Fireball effect, and it deals with Giest even if you have to hardcast it. I'd make the argument Mortars is better against GW because you can plan game states so that you blow out your opponent more often.
Maybe it's a moot point though if I want to add Caverns to the deck, I'd probably have to switch back to Bonfire and that would allow me to completely sell out on green lands.
Oh, my username is the same on Xbox and Cockatrice, add me!
"For some of us, easier Magic is good Magic, but if you are one of those 'intelligent types,' feel free to play your Hive Mind mirrors. The rest of us are here for the fireworks." - Kent Ketter
Playing in Type 2...BGRJundHearted
I also added a couple of caverns along with my lone wolf run about a week ago. Played in a pretty sizable tourney this last weekend and for the most part, still with the caverns, before side boarding, I had about a 20% win ratio against the W/U Flash/Counter type decks in game one . . . and boy did I see a lot of them. Some were heavier of the counter type spells and some more the removal type spells . . . but both were extremely difficult. My #1 star was Olivia . . . bar none. I decided to run nighthawks which made my caverns for Vampire that much better, but my second cavern got jammed between human/beast/demon choices (I never needed to name Shaman) . . . and continuously getting returned to the library/hand lost soooo much tempo I often couldn't catch up when coupled with the other removal. My deathrite was sometimes awesome and sometimes just a tempo loss with me trying over and over to keep him on the field. I had very few mana issues but did cost me in a game three match (flooded). I have updated my list with farseeks to help my mid/late game draws. Any advice from any one else with this 'W/U' issue??? I am almost considering adding a third cavern but am very concerned as far as colored mana is concerned.
It's much better along side creatures, and so I still advocate playing Vampire Nighthawks alongside Olivia, Thrags and Huntmasters in hopes even in the aggro match ups a mid-game bonfire still nets me a few hits with the creatures on my field.
The downside to not running bonfire is Sigarda, GoSt, Invisible Stalker.
It still hold it's own against U/W aggro, Jund, Zombies and maybe U/Wr/Flash
Gott say having to run 5-6 different removal spells is really unfortunate
I am running just 2 farseeks mainboard now . . . but the 'new' heavy emphasis on the W/U type decks has beaten the snot out of me this weekend. In a total of 14 matches between three different tournaments at two different shops I saw that type of deck 9 times. I have gone to one bonfire and been bringing in rolling temblor a lot. I also brought in nighthawks and a Desecration Demon that will never leave this deck, ever. He is such an immediate threat that I virtually never ever attacked with him, but forced my opponent to almost always immediately change their game plans which was always to my advantage (eventually). I just am wondering iffn I need to add an additional cavern and what else could I do mainboard against these decks???
I agree . . . and have been having to keep 2 nighthawks and 2 Mortars main deck just for these. Nighthawks have become by best protection against Sigarda but Rootborn Defenses and similar cards have been an issue. I only have one bonfire and seems to be working so far. I also have been running just one Bloodline and long with one Vraska . . . and still not certain if that is best or not.
Where I am, I see Snap (U/W something) every single tourney . . . and every other match (or so). I had to add 2 caverns and looking @ a 3rd just to pretend to have a chance. I do think I will go from 4 pillars to 2 and add 2 spears. Seems like quite a bit of */3 verses */2 now days.