You can see the Mono-Red decks making it up there in the tourney's lately and I think a big part of that is Burning Earth. We do have answers to it, but everyone is meta-gaming against Jund atm. I was thinking about running Jedi Jund (splash white for Blood Baron, Sin Collector etc...) with a few changes this weekend in SLC but the emergence of Lifebane Zombie has got me on the ropes about it.
Here's what it would look like if I were to run it. Credit to Jared Boettcher for the creation of the deck. I altered it a bit.
I like the Cavern synergy with the two vampires and two humans if sin collector comes in. Lifebane would wreck this deck though but lifebane would also do some work of it's own if I could find a place for it in this deck. Rites is just awesome essentially giving you 6 thrags etc...
"If fetch lands are reprinted I really believe they will be in allied colors (aka Onslaught fetches). If the fetch lands are reprinted you better believe that we'll all be fetching up basics. This would lead me to believe that the set after THS may have a reprint as the temples can't be fetched but it's pure speculation." - posted 03/22/2014 proved correct during Khans spoiler season.
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
What are everyone's thoughts about appetite for brains in the side board? It's pretty good against Burning Earth, USA control, Mirror, and possibly junk rites. Being able to take anything that is 4 or greater seems pretty good right now.
What are everyone's thoughts about appetite for brains in the side board? It's pretty good against Burning Earth, USA control, Mirror, and possibly junk rites. Being able to take anything that is 4 or greater seems pretty good right now.
Appetite for Brains is actually a great suggestion It's not good against small aggro, but against big Kibler-aggro it's actually great. The deck has >12 targets as far as I know, which is really good, and the BE-hoseability is just sweet. This might be the tech that puts us ahead of the curve.
EDIT: Also works against elf-decks. I don't like the card against UWR, though. Not hitting the most relevant spells is bad.
Especially so in the Jund mirror though, due to cards like Huntmaster and Olivia where the first one played defeats the second one, and the mana hungry nature of cards like Rakdos's Return, Kessig Wolf Run, and Bonfire that are much more effective when you are ahead mana.
If you play olivia with your opponent having one in play you might want to drink some coffee. but seriously, it's the same for any midrange mirror that plays value creatures. You just have to be smart about things and not give yourself card disadvantage.
Obviously you don't play it when your opponent has one out, the point I'm making is that there are a ton of cards in the Jund mirror that shut down your opponent when yours comes online first (ie Rakdos's Returning their hand while they have their own RR, getting to kill Huntmaster/Olivia with your own).
It's not that your Olivia is going to die (unless you're a complete idiot) but that your Olivia is going to sit in your hand and you won't be able to cast it... and Huntmaster isn't much better, because they can just untap and ping it to death
I still like being on the draw. The three most important things in the mirror are hitting land drops, answering Olivia, and resolving Rakdos's Return. The latter is the only thing that's easier on the play, and with the games going long, I'd rather hit all my land drops.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
I think you always want to be on the play, but the advantage is minimal in the Jund mirror. Because on the one hand if you go Farseek into Keyrune into RR and wipe their hand... they are out of a hand, but you also only have a 2 card hand by now because most of your plays were acceleration.
I've lost a game where I went Farseek into Keyrune/Duress into RR into Thragtusk. My opponent played Olivia. Both of us drew blanks, I swung for 5, he swung for 5... then eventually stole Thrag. He got one swing in with it before I killed Olivia and got my guy back (I'm at 4). Then he draws RR and finishes me off.
I got 4 cards with that RR, but I used up 2 in order to get into that position to get the early RR. Not saying RR is bad, but just pointing out that there is give and take when it comes to acceleration.
If you are on the play and you get the early advantage with Olivia or Garruk... it's balanced somewhat by the fact that the opponent has one more draw to have an answer in hand.
I do wonder if there aren't cards we could bring in from the side in the event we are on the draw to give us a little more oomph against those plays. My thinking of stuff like Barter in Blood. A lot better in the mirror when you are on the draw.
However, I'm debating changing the 3 white producing lands to some other lands, and going -2 blood baron, +2 lifebane zombie in the main, then going -2 lifebane zombie, -1 assemble, -3 sin collector, -2 barter in blood and going +2 liliana of the veil, +2 duress, +1 lifebane zombie, +2 ruric thar, +1 pithing needle.
I don't expect the mirror that much, although I do expect a solid number of aggressive midrange decks. What do you think? I love me some blood baron, I just dont' know if the splash is worth it?
Also, how else can I shore the control matchup? Put in 2 slaughter games?
for reference if i removed white, this is what i'd play
I've play tested the white splash a bit and don't personally feel as though it's worth it. It has its moments but I think it's too situational and the deck already has enough power to value consistency over additional power.
I think it might be worth testing for Assemble, Sin Collector, Blood Baron and Resto Angel. You might have to think about replacing Olivia or Huntmaster to fit some of those cards in.
There probably isn't going to be anything wrong with the mana as long as you don't try and play Nighthawk or Liliana, but you get to a point where you wonder if it's worth it making these changes over what is already in place. There isn't any specific weakness that we need to address that isn't being solved by some of the other cards we play.
I tested with the Jedi Jund list. It is just trying to do more than it needs too. Even if I had Blood Baron in hand he sat there while I casted much more relevant spells. I was still casting Thragtusks over Baron.
I considered playing the deck in a SCG Classic that I missed(thanks work!) and the changes to the mana and spells just wasn't worth it.
Anyone have any tips on how to make the UWR matchup go much more smoothly and in our favor? I die to Aetherling game 1, then game 2 is Assemble or Aetherling.
I think it might be worth testing for Assemble, Sin Collector, Blood Baron and Resto Angel. You might have to think about replacing Olivia or Huntmaster to fit some of those cards in.
There probably isn't going to be anything wrong with the mana as long as you don't try and play Nighthawk or Liliana, but you get to a point where you wonder if it's worth it making these changes over what is already in place. There isn't any specific weakness that we need to address that isn't being solved by some of the other cards we play.
I agree. Even on paper it just seems very inefficient to splash the color.
That said, I"m feeling pretty confident vs the midrange and aggressive matchups, but i'm a little worried about esper control and uwr and even MBC. what can i do from my sideboard to help turn these matchups in my favor? for reference i'm planning on using the second list in my last post.
I tested with the Jedi Jund list. It is just trying to do more than it needs too. Even if I had Blood Baron in hand he sat there while I casted much more relevant spells. I was still casting Thragtusks over Baron.
I considered playing the deck in a SCG Classic that I missed(thanks work!) and the changes to the mana and spells just wasn't worth it.
Anyone have any tips on how to make the UWR matchup go much more smoothly and in our favor? I die to Aetherling game 1, then game 2 is Assemble or Aetherling.
Generally against UW/x you obviously don't want to overextend into Verdict. Thragtusk is kind of a "free" card in that sense because you don't lose an extra creature when they Verdict it away. But like don't go Nighthawk into Huntmaster into Olivia or something to that effect, just swing in with the 2 creatures.
You are going to have spells you'll want to cast and they are going to have counters. There really isn't a point to holding back to wait for them to tap out (unless you already have great board presence). The only thing you can really do is just play them and run through counters. If you have Garruk, Thragtusk and Rakdos Return... order them in a way that you would want whatever card to hit play last. I'd probably do it Thragtusk, Garruk, Rakdos Return. But it really depends on the board state.
You gotta know how to use Kessig Wolf Run correctly. It's a pretty sweet card against them, but they have tons of ways to nutralize it. If you have two creatures and swing with both... probably a good idea to wolf run the creature you want the least because that way you force them to use removal on something they might not have wanted to.
what can i do from my sideboard to help turn these matchups in my favor? for reference i'm planning on using the second list in my last post.
I'd probably take out a lot of the removal, Lifebane Zombie... and come back with Duress, Chant/Connections, Ruric Thar, Charm (hits Assemble and Sphere, also can set up blowouts against Verdict). You mostly bring in Charm against Assemble the Legion, but the other modes are relevant sometimes.
It's not quite that simple. An extra turn at the beginning of the game is a slight advantage, whereas an extra turn with 10+ mana in play is busted. I doubt they banned time walk because of turn 2 extra mana.
It's not quite that simple. An extra turn at the beginning of the game is a slight advantage, whereas an extra turn with 10+ mana in play is busted. I doubt they banned time walk because of turn 2 extra mana.
Well... also, you play timewalk you also get to draw a card at the beginning of the extra turn you got... which isn't the case for the extra turn you get at the beginning of the game if you play first.
But you are right in that if you just play time walk on turn 2, that's not a "broken" play. Still not a bad play because you get to draw a card and play an extra land, but not the reason the card is banned.
I don't think adding white "solves" any of the problems this deck has. The manabase gets more unstable and the curve becomes heavier with extra five-drops. I've never liked adding more 5-drops to Jund-lists. Right now what I'm struggling with is the RG MU and to a lesser extent the UWR MU. Lifegain is needed, but VNH is actually way better creature than Baron against RG in conjuction with the rest of the deck. I've really felt that VNHs are necessary, even though their overall powerlevel isn't as great as Lifebane Zombies', for example. Sin Collector is a good card... But we have a card that fills the role, Duress. Assemble the Legion is nice, but when we talk about slamming powerful 5-drops, Garruk is definitely good enough. Fighting the counterspells matters more than choosing the most game-ending 5-drop, imho.
What do you guys think abt primeval bounty? I heard that G/X midrange decks at my LGS have been causing lots of trouble for control with primeval bounty.
What do you guys think abt primeval bounty? I heard that G/X midrange decks at my LGS have been causing lots of trouble for control with primeval bounty.
Underworld Connections, Liliana of the Veil, Garruk, Primal Hunter. We have (better) options.
What's the meta you're expecting? UWR decks, I'd tend to lean towards Slaughter Games so you can snag the Revelation. Vs slower, Aetherling decks, you can nail that too. If you're going to see a lot of hexproof, Duress seems to be the way to go
Out of curiosity, why Chromatic Lantern. I understood it in previous lists, but since you're not running Blood Baron (or any white for that matter) it seems a little out of place
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What's the meta you're expecting? UWR decks, I'd tend to lean towards Slaughter Games so you can snag the Revelation. Vs slower, Aetherling decks, you can nail that too. If you're going to see a lot of hexproof, Duress seems to be the way to go
Out of curiosity, why Chromatic Lantern. I understood it in previous lists, but since you're not running Blood Baron (or any white for that matter) it seems a little out of place
Here's what it would look like if I were to run it. Credit to Jared Boettcher for the creation of the deck. I altered it a bit.
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Godless Shrine
3 Dragonskull Summit
3 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground
3 Woodland Cemetery
3 Rootbound Crag
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Olivia Voldaren
4 Thragtusk
1 Unbrial Rites
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Dreadbore
3 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Tragic Slip
4 Farseek
2 Putrefy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Gaze of Granite
1 Underworld Connections
3 Sin Collector
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Barter In Blood
I like the Cavern synergy with the two vampires and two humans if sin collector comes in. Lifebane would wreck this deck though but lifebane would also do some work of it's own if I could find a place for it in this deck. Rites is just awesome essentially giving you 6 thrags etc...
"The set releases for fall 2015 (Blood, Sweat and Tears) and fall 2016 (Lock, Stock and Barrel). One or both of those 2 blocks (I'm betting) are going to contain either Fetch reprints or (more likely) Filter reprints. Filter lands still need a reprint. They are getting pretty high up there and it's been longer than ZEN so it makes a little more sense that Filter lands would see print earlier that fetches." - posted 03/22/2014 proved incorrect about filters coming earlier than fetches, still pending on filters in Origins block.
Appetite for Brains is actually a great suggestion It's not good against small aggro, but against big Kibler-aggro it's actually great. The deck has >12 targets as far as I know, which is really good, and the BE-hoseability is just sweet. This might be the tech that puts us ahead of the curve.
EDIT: Also works against elf-decks. I don't like the card against UWR, though. Not hitting the most relevant spells is bad.
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It's not that your Olivia is going to die (unless you're a complete idiot) but that your Olivia is going to sit in your hand and you won't be able to cast it... and Huntmaster isn't much better, because they can just untap and ping it to death
I've lost a game where I went Farseek into Keyrune/Duress into RR into Thragtusk. My opponent played Olivia. Both of us drew blanks, I swung for 5, he swung for 5... then eventually stole Thrag. He got one swing in with it before I killed Olivia and got my guy back (I'm at 4). Then he draws RR and finishes me off.
I got 4 cards with that RR, but I used up 2 in order to get into that position to get the early RR. Not saying RR is bad, but just pointing out that there is give and take when it comes to acceleration.
If you are on the play and you get the early advantage with Olivia or Garruk... it's balanced somewhat by the fact that the opponent has one more draw to have an answer in hand.
I do wonder if there aren't cards we could bring in from the side in the event we are on the draw to give us a little more oomph against those plays. My thinking of stuff like Barter in Blood. A lot better in the mirror when you are on the draw.
Extra Turns at the cheapest cost 1U, and is broken at that cost.
Extra Draws Cost 2 Life, Or U, and usually have an upside.
...I'll take the play, tyvm.
UBRBLACK ROSE COMMANDERUBR
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I want to run the jund colors for gameday, and was planning on running this list
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:15
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
4 Thragtusk
Spells:20
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Tragic Slip
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
4 Farseek
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Chromatic Lantern
2 Putrefy
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Godless Shrine
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
3 Woodland Cemetery
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Lifebane Zombie
3 Sin Collector
2 Barter in Blood
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Deadbridge Chant
However, I'm debating changing the 3 white producing lands to some other lands, and going -2 blood baron, +2 lifebane zombie in the main, then going -2 lifebane zombie, -1 assemble, -3 sin collector, -2 barter in blood and going +2 liliana of the veil, +2 duress, +1 lifebane zombie, +2 ruric thar, +1 pithing needle.
I don't expect the mirror that much, although I do expect a solid number of aggressive midrange decks. What do you think? I love me some blood baron, I just dont' know if the splash is worth it?
Also, how else can I shore the control matchup? Put in 2 slaughter games?
for reference if i removed white, this is what i'd play
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:15
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Olivia Voldaren
4 Thragtusk
Spells:20
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Tragic Slip
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
4 Farseek
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Putrefy
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Blood Crypt
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Dragonskull Summit
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lifebane Zombie
1 Deadbridge Chant
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Pithing Needle
2 Duress or Slaughter Games
Town Win % = 75%
Mafia Win % = 75%
Overall Win % = 75%
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2014: Most Improved Player
2014: Best Town Player
2014: Best Overall Player
There probably isn't going to be anything wrong with the mana as long as you don't try and play Nighthawk or Liliana, but you get to a point where you wonder if it's worth it making these changes over what is already in place. There isn't any specific weakness that we need to address that isn't being solved by some of the other cards we play.
I considered playing the deck in a SCG Classic that I missed(thanks work!) and the changes to the mana and spells just wasn't worth it.
Anyone have any tips on how to make the UWR matchup go much more smoothly and in our favor? I die to Aetherling game 1, then game 2 is Assemble or Aetherling.
I agree. Even on paper it just seems very inefficient to splash the color.
That said, I"m feeling pretty confident vs the midrange and aggressive matchups, but i'm a little worried about esper control and uwr and even MBC. what can i do from my sideboard to help turn these matchups in my favor? for reference i'm planning on using the second list in my last post.
Generally against UW/x you obviously don't want to overextend into Verdict. Thragtusk is kind of a "free" card in that sense because you don't lose an extra creature when they Verdict it away. But like don't go Nighthawk into Huntmaster into Olivia or something to that effect, just swing in with the 2 creatures.
You are going to have spells you'll want to cast and they are going to have counters. There really isn't a point to holding back to wait for them to tap out (unless you already have great board presence). The only thing you can really do is just play them and run through counters. If you have Garruk, Thragtusk and Rakdos Return... order them in a way that you would want whatever card to hit play last. I'd probably do it Thragtusk, Garruk, Rakdos Return. But it really depends on the board state.
You gotta know how to use Kessig Wolf Run correctly. It's a pretty sweet card against them, but they have tons of ways to nutralize it. If you have two creatures and swing with both... probably a good idea to wolf run the creature you want the least because that way you force them to use removal on something they might not have wanted to.
I'd probably take out a lot of the removal, Lifebane Zombie... and come back with Duress, Chant/Connections, Ruric Thar, Charm (hits Assemble and Sphere, also can set up blowouts against Verdict). You mostly bring in Charm against Assemble the Legion, but the other modes are relevant sometimes.
It's not quite that simple. An extra turn at the beginning of the game is a slight advantage, whereas an extra turn with 10+ mana in play is busted. I doubt they banned time walk because of turn 2 extra mana.
Well... also, you play timewalk you also get to draw a card at the beginning of the extra turn you got... which isn't the case for the extra turn you get at the beginning of the game if you play first.
But you are right in that if you just play time walk on turn 2, that's not a "broken" play. Still not a bad play because you get to draw a card and play an extra land, but not the reason the card is banned.
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Underworld Connections, Liliana of the Veil, Garruk, Primal Hunter. We have (better) options.
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3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Lifebane Zombie
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Olivia Voldaren
4 Thragtusk
Spells:20
2 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Pillar of Flame
1 Tragic Slip
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dreadbore
4 Farseek
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
1 Chromatic Lantern
2 Putrefy
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Blood Crypt
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Dragonskull Summit
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Duress
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lifebane Zombie
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Deadbridge Chant
2 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
What's the meta you're expecting? UWR decks, I'd tend to lean towards Slaughter Games so you can snag the Revelation. Vs slower, Aetherling decks, you can nail that too. If you're going to see a lot of hexproof, Duress seems to be the way to go
Out of curiosity, why Chromatic Lantern. I understood it in previous lists, but since you're not running Blood Baron (or any white for that matter) it seems a little out of place
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Oops sorry that should be a rakdos Keyrune