Isn't Gloom Surgeon a better blocker than SRG anyway?
Not necessarily. Because if I'm facing a tempo deck (say UWR), I'm shutting off a lot of their burn spells by playing Giest because of the undying. And if Giest already has the +1/+1 counter, they are actually less likely to use stuff like Azorious Charm because it would reset the undying.
Unless they pillar/abrupt decay/remove your elf before you can use him for ramp, you do not get any true value out of him besides a 1for1 slightly in your favor (as in they could have saved abrupt decay for your flipped huntmaster).
Similar situation with nighthawk, but he does not add immediate board presence, meaning, he has no immediate benefits like huntmaster and thrag. If he dies to removal before you can attack or block or stall, you just got 0 value out of it. Similar to playing Olivia with only 4 mana. If she gets removed, 0 value out of her.
What is our win percentage vs UWR flash?
I faced a UWR flash last night and it seemed I couldn't get anything going( he did run 4 dissipate/4 warleader helix mainboard). I play huntmaster. It died. I played Thragtusk. It died. Olivia? Dead on arrival. Garruk? Counters. Sire? Helixed. Its like he built it just for our matchup. I don't know what to do for this match up. Its the only match I am seriously worried about right now. I did lose to Prime speaker bant last night but it was my fault. Jund is more than capable of winning that match. But it seems like all the flash and flash back from UWR can just disrupt us quicker than we can react.
Any tips on this match up?
Also Liliana under performed all night long. Was disappointed playing her. I tried a 2nd RR in her place and moved her to the board. The 2nd RR makes my midrange matches a bit better.
Maybe it was just all his dissipates(4 of) that got me those games. Admittedly I could've played better. I always say that when I lose a match though. I was off my games last night. I don't know why. But I was playing awkwardly last night. I will do better today.
UWR is a tempo deck. Mulligan aggressively, you gotta hit your land drops. Play Caverns in main. Duress is easily the best card from SB (RR and sire is good, but tempo matters too much). Lily is good too.
you could tell us how you sideboarded against him.
I don't remember it exactly but I did bring in
+1 duress
+1 RR
+1 Ground seal
+2 Slaughter games
+1 Mortar
I don't remember what I took out though. I did slaughter games his Revelations first.
this is the list in question
i wasn't expecting much Junk Reanimator here (in my local meta there is only 1 player with junk reanimator) and was facing a lot more aggro/control decks.
so i've moved the ground seals sideboard and added the desecration demon, cause its good against both.
As usual garruk to me is MVP.
Won all my matches today thru 5 rounds + top4, (id the last of the first 5 rounds).
i didn't miss liliana, and here at least, with the more controlling decks packing a lot of counters and (far/away) and turn/burn its getting kind of hard to win the attrition battle, imo.
This seems like a common theme I've seen lately. Even the pro players seem to be down to one Liliana main deck.
Im actually building Jund now (usually play Flash, Bant or Blitz - maybe a bit of everything) and the only card Im missing is Liliana from the decklist. Wondering if she's even really worth picking up
This seems like a common theme I've seen lately. Even the pro players seem to be down to one Liliana main deck.
Im actually building Jund now (usually play Flash, Bant or Blitz - maybe a bit of everything) and the only card Im missing is Liliana from the decklist. Wondering if she's even really worth picking up
This. Any elaboration on this issue would be greatly appreciated.
i wasn't expecting much Junk Reanimator here (in my local meta there is only 1 player with junk reanimator) and was facing a lot more aggro/control decks.
so i've moved the ground seals sideboard and added the desecration demon, cause its good against both.
As usual garruk to me is MVP.
Won all my matches today thru 5 rounds + top4, (id the last of the first 5 rounds).
i didn't miss liliana, and here at least, with the more controlling decks packing a lot of counters and (far/away) and turn/burn its getting kind of hard to win the attrition battle, imo.
My list is similar to this, I honestly want to just put in Liliana instead of Sire, SoI is only good against Control/some aggro matchups, whereas liliana is good against pretty much any deck except re animator. (And with a ground seal it's even good against that)
This seems like a common theme I've seen lately. Even the pro players seem to be down to one Liliana main deck.
Im actually building Jund now (usually play Flash, Bant or Blitz - maybe a bit of everything) and the only card Im missing is Liliana from the decklist. Wondering if she's even really worth picking up
This. Any elaboration on this issue would be greatly appreciated.
I was thinking it was good with Bant Hex gaining popularity but they they are siding Strangleroot Geists and Lili without elf might be a bit too slow esp when they are on the play. Maybe the correct play is to main the 1 copy and side something else in place of the other 2 Lilis (or side in Pillers, pray you draw them when they are good and not when they aren't).
I was thinking it was good with Bant Hex gaining popularity but they they are siding Strangleroot Geists and Lili without elf might be a bit too slow esp when they are on the play. Maybe the correct play is to main the 1 copy and side something else in place of the other 2 Lilis (or side in Pillers, pray you draw them when they are good and not when they aren't).
Maining the one copy seems like a popular way to go... though I've read a few people who are moving even that 1 copy to the SB, in favor of another Garruk, Rakdos Return or piece of removal.
I think I might pick up one copy to play around with - but not sure I'm going to bother getting 3-4 of them given the current opinions of others who have played the deck fairly extensively. I've played against Jund a hundred times but it's one of the only decks in standard I haven't actually played with. Figure might as well change that up
One more question. It's been a few months since I've played Jund, but I was wondering, based on the current "stock" list most people are running, what is the current sideboard in/out plan? (partially subjective/judgement call I know) While I don't plan on playing the list verbatim, I'm am just curious as to the reasoning, as it will provide insight into potential tweaks I might make.
Maining the one copy seems like a popular way to go... though I've read a few people who are moving even that 1 copy to the SB, in favor of another Garruk, Rakdos Return or piece of removal.
I think I might pick up one copy to play around with - but not sure I'm going to bother getting 3-4 of them given the current opinions of others who have played the deck fairly extensively. I've played against Jund a hundred times but it's one of the only decks in standard I haven't actually played with. Figure might as well change that up
I keep going over the list and seem to come back to keeping the Lili in the main, keeping 1 Lili in side and possibly playing Garruk, Relentless over the 3rd Lili. She just so versatile where she can help across match ups.
Personally I like the 1 Rakdo's Return main. I think I am going to stick to the Reid build maybe changing 1 Lili in the side and aggressively siding in the aggro matchups.
I keep going over the list and seem to come back to keeping the Lili in the main, keeping 1 Lili in side and possibly playing Garruk, Relentless over the 3rd Lili. She just so versatile where she can help across match ups.
Personally I like the 1 Rakdo's Return main. I think I am going to stick to the Reid build maybe changing 1 Lili in the side and aggressively siding in the aggro matchups.
Just throwing ideas out there, it might be too slow and we could pack maybe something else like Dreadbore and/Abrupt Decay
I disagree, instant speed hard removal is worth it's weight in gold in this format with cards like Rancor/Resto Angel/Obzedat/etc. I've actually put all my dreadbore's in the side, just because of how good putrefy has been in midrange/control matchups. You also will need it to be able to get rid of cards like opposing Sire's and resto+thragtusk plays. It also throws a wrench into opposing kessig plays.
I think Putrefy takes the place of what Sever used to do in some of these decks from like 2-3 months ago. It's kind of a catch all spell that can hit a lot of the stuff that your other spells couldn't. And it helps that it can play the role of Ultimate Price to some degree (don't get me wrong, the extra mana makes it a little harder to do so).
Bloodgift Demon is interesting. We tried it in the beginning of season, but dropped it very soon. It does have its merits though -we run more acceleration now, and it's an Underworld Connections that doesn't die to Acidic Slime. I'm still not super excited though. How did that list perform? Also, it looks like you can play Arbor Elf and Keyrune in the same after all
Against pants.dec I'd play Gaze of Granite, Bonfire of the Damned, Abrupt Decay and Liliana. Vampire Nighthawk might be good as well. The new Elemental, Smiter and SRG are certainly shaking things up, but those should still be good cards. I'm pretty sure Gaze is very effective too.
I went 6-1-1, having ID'd in the last round. I lost my first match to Bant Hexproof and if I'd won in the Semi-final I would have faced another Bant Hexproof deck so I'm glad I didn't have to lose in the final.
Anyone got any ideas as what to play against Bant Hexproof? I boarded in the the Lili's, but never saw them.
I played Junk Reanimator twice, and it was a fairly comfortable match up. Drawing Ground Seal in all my opening hands against it was obviously a key factor.
Faced Aristocrats in Semis; lost 2-1. Final game went down to the wire, I had an Olivia out, stole his Falkenrath Aristocrat ready to swing for the win next turn - until he plays a Mark of Mutiny on my Olivia and rode to victory.
Overall it was a really good day - The deck performed flawlessly, and I've definitely got a taste for PTQs now.
Against Bant, I'd bring in pillars, nighthawks, tragic slips, Lilianas, and abrupt decay, pulling Ground seals, a Garruk, Rakdos's return, dreadbore, the sires, rakdos Keyrune, and probably a farseek.
Against ghost pants, you're plan is usually kill there mana dork, and watch them stumble. The board plan is take out most of the expensive spells for cheap removal and nighthawks. Nightawk can actually answer everything but Geist with Ethereal armor on it. If they don't nut draw you, this should be a fine matchup.
Edit: If they play smiter, you're probably gonna want to keep dreadbore. I really wouldn't mind going down to 2 farseek against there deck since you're gonna want to impact the board on turn 2. Also, things probably change on the play vs. the draw. Like, on the play, I'd probably want to keep all my farseeks and I'd probably cut a kessig and putrefy instead.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Not necessarily. Because if I'm facing a tempo deck (say UWR), I'm shutting off a lot of their burn spells by playing Giest because of the undying. And if Giest already has the +1/+1 counter, they are actually less likely to use stuff like Azorious Charm because it would reset the undying.
Unless they pillar/abrupt decay/remove your elf before you can use him for ramp, you do not get any true value out of him besides a 1for1 slightly in your favor (as in they could have saved abrupt decay for your flipped huntmaster).
Similar situation with nighthawk, but he does not add immediate board presence, meaning, he has no immediate benefits like huntmaster and thrag. If he dies to removal before you can attack or block or stall, you just got 0 value out of it. Similar to playing Olivia with only 4 mana. If she gets removed, 0 value out of her.
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I faced a UWR flash last night and it seemed I couldn't get anything going( he did run 4 dissipate/4 warleader helix mainboard). I play huntmaster. It died. I played Thragtusk. It died. Olivia? Dead on arrival. Garruk? Counters. Sire? Helixed. Its like he built it just for our matchup. I don't know what to do for this match up. Its the only match I am seriously worried about right now. I did lose to Prime speaker bant last night but it was my fault. Jund is more than capable of winning that match. But it seems like all the flash and flash back from UWR can just disrupt us quicker than we can react.
Any tips on this match up?
Also Liliana under performed all night long. Was disappointed playing her. I tried a 2nd RR in her place and moved her to the board. The 2nd RR makes my midrange matches a bit better.
you could tell us how you sideboarded against him.
Youtube Channel
+1 duress
+1 RR
+1 Ground seal
+2 Slaughter games
+1 Mortar
I don't remember what I took out though. I did slaughter games his Revelations first.
this is the list in question
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Aurelia, the Warleader
4 Think Twice
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Dissipate
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Dragonshift
3 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Assemble the Legion
3 Searing Spear
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Clifftop Retreat
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Island
2 Dispel
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Aurelia's Fury
2 Lavinia of the Tenth
3 Counterflux
1 Pithing Needle
1 Assemble the Legion
2 Wear / Tear
This seems like a common theme I've seen lately. Even the pro players seem to be down to one Liliana main deck.
Im actually building Jund now (usually play Flash, Bant or Blitz - maybe a bit of everything) and the only card Im missing is Liliana from the decklist. Wondering if she's even really worth picking up
My list is similar to this, I honestly want to just put in Liliana instead of Sire, SoI is only good against Control/some aggro matchups, whereas liliana is good against pretty much any deck except re animator. (And with a ground seal it's even good against that)
Epic Sig by: Myself
Mindsplicer of [House Dimir]
I was thinking it was good with Bant Hex gaining popularity but they they are siding Strangleroot Geists and Lili without elf might be a bit too slow esp when they are on the play. Maybe the correct play is to main the 1 copy and side something else in place of the other 2 Lilis (or side in Pillers, pray you draw them when they are good and not when they aren't).
Maining the one copy seems like a popular way to go... though I've read a few people who are moving even that 1 copy to the SB, in favor of another Garruk, Rakdos Return or piece of removal.
I think I might pick up one copy to play around with - but not sure I'm going to bother getting 3-4 of them given the current opinions of others who have played the deck fairly extensively. I've played against Jund a hundred times but it's one of the only decks in standard I haven't actually played with. Figure might as well change that up
Here is the list for reference:
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Dreadbore
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Rakdos Keyrune
4 Thragtusk
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Tragic Slip
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Olivia Voldaren
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground
4 Farseek
2 Putrefy
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Ground Seal
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Deadbridge Chant
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Vraska the Unseen
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Tragic Slip
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Ground Seal
1 Duress
I keep going over the list and seem to come back to keeping the Lili in the main, keeping 1 Lili in side and possibly playing Garruk, Relentless over the 3rd Lili. She just so versatile where she can help across match ups.
Personally I like the 1 Rakdo's Return main. I think I am going to stick to the Reid build maybe changing 1 Lili in the side and aggressively siding in the aggro matchups.
Also Putrefy might be something to reevaluate.
Could you elaborate please?
I'm still debating if I'll pick up one Liliana for the MB, but for now I don't have one on me so I'll go as is
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Thragtusk
3 Olivia Voldaren
Planeswalkers
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Spells
1 Rakdos Keyrune
2 Ground Seal
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Putrefy
2 Tragic Slip
3 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Dreadbore
4 Farseek
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Blood Crypt
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Rootbound Crag
4 Stomping Ground
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Ground Seal
2 Tragic Slip
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Deadbridge Chant
2 Duress
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Slaughter Games
Obviously nothing revolutionary here, a standard stock list for the most part. Are the Ground Seals main still needed?
Has anyone played with Deadbridge Chant yet? I kinda like it!
Just throwing ideas out there, it might be too slow and we could pack maybe something else like Dreadbore and/Abrupt Decay
My list last night, expected a bunch of Bant Hexproof, some midrange, little control....
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Thragtusk
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Sire of Insanity
4 Farseek
1 Dreadbore
3 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Putrefy
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Tragic Slip
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ground Seal
1 Rakdos's Return
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
3 Woodland Cemetery
2 Forest
2 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Slaughter Games
2 Duress
1 Ground Seal
1 Vraska the Unseen
2 Pillar of Flame
1 Tragic Slip
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Deadbridge Chant
1 Abrupt Decay
Deck performed extremely well against Reanimator and Aggro decks, and did well going long against Esper Control in the Finals, but I struggled a little bit with Midrange if I did not resolve Sire of Insanity/Rakdos's Return OR they topdecked better than I did after I resolved Sire (such as...Loxodon Smiter, Restoration Angel, Loxodon Smiter, Thragtusk, Selesnya Charm).
To that end, I watched in some amazement at the following decklist at the SCG Open today, and I really think some of the changes are quite strong:
Jund by Danny Li at SCG Open Charlotte
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Thragtusk
3 Olivia Voldaren
2 Sire of Insanity
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Rakdos Keyrune
4 Farseek
2 Ground Seal
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Putrefy
2 Tragic Slip
1 Dreadbore
3 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Rakdos's Return
2 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Rootbound Crag
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Blood Crypt
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Bloodgift Demon
1 Gaze of Granite
2 Acidic Slime
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Ground Seal
1 Putrefy
1 Tragic Slip
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Pillar of Flame
2 Slaughter Games
Wow.
I really like this list. Some of the alterations are very subtle, and I would still want to run a couple of Cavern of Souls, but this just seems so much better than what I ran at FNM. Bloodgift Demon seems like an absolute beating, although I would worry a little bit about Progenitor Mimic. I am less of a fan of 3x Liliana of the Veil and 2x Acidic Slime, but every creature in his deck can stop an opposing threat. Gaze of Granite seems infinitely better than Bonfire of the Damned vs. Bant Hexproof/Geist of Saint Traft.
Some possible changes that I think fit the metagame slightly better....
-1 Dragonskull Summit
-1 Rootbound Crag
+2 Cavern of Souls
I disagree, instant speed hard removal is worth it's weight in gold in this format with cards like Rancor/Resto Angel/Obzedat/etc. I've actually put all my dreadbore's in the side, just because of how good putrefy has been in midrange/control matchups. You also will need it to be able to get rid of cards like opposing Sire's and resto+thragtusk plays. It also throws a wrench into opposing kessig plays.
Epic Sig by: Myself
Mindsplicer of [House Dimir]
Against pants.dec I'd play Gaze of Granite, Bonfire of the Damned, Abrupt Decay and Liliana. Vampire Nighthawk might be good as well. The new Elemental, Smiter and SRG are certainly shaking things up, but those should still be good cards. I'm pretty sure Gaze is very effective too.
Youtube Channel
Against Bant, I'd bring in pillars, nighthawks, tragic slips, Lilianas, and abrupt decay, pulling Ground seals, a Garruk, Rakdos's return, dreadbore, the sires, rakdos Keyrune, and probably a farseek.
Against ghost pants, you're plan is usually kill there mana dork, and watch them stumble. The board plan is take out most of the expensive spells for cheap removal and nighthawks. Nightawk can actually answer everything but Geist with Ethereal armor on it. If they don't nut draw you, this should be a fine matchup.
Edit: If they play smiter, you're probably gonna want to keep dreadbore. I really wouldn't mind going down to 2 farseek against there deck since you're gonna want to impact the board on turn 2. Also, things probably change on the play vs. the draw. Like, on the play, I'd probably want to keep all my farseeks and I'd probably cut a kessig and putrefy instead.