Yah, I completely agree that it is much more of a midrange deck. In my previous post, I was expressing how burial rites just adds much more value and resiliency to the deck but in the end, the deck hardcasts much more than it reanimates hence the need for 4 caverns. Also the reason why I now run 2 Mulch. Not to mention you run at least 6-8 ramp cards in the deck. Exactly why I love the deck, because of its versatility and lets not forget about the amazing sideboard options.
I've played the mirror with the angel shenanigans and it hurts my head. I bring in memory's journey and a dsphere to help break the loop. Shaman does a ton of work here also especially against the red rites. You may even consider 1 selesnya charm since it can be used in a variety of matchups including the mirror.
Blue variants of the deck seems very interesting to me, I feel the red version is a bit more of a combo deck with faithless looting really allowing you to choose whats in your yard but this blue version seems like more of a value deck
They have more flashback spell, and while not necessarily better sideboard options then red they do bring some interesting ones
I think the loss of Zealous Conscripts as an options is a big deal, I also like options such as Evil Twin and Increasing Confusion (which just seems fun in the mirror or against certain control decks) maybe even dispel is you wanna try and **** on Revelation
I can certainly see the argument for this deck since the value is a better strategy verse control decks then more combo and straight mid ranged versions
I think what hits more is the loss of slaughter games when running the blue version.. in the mirror or semi-mirror match slaughter games on the angel can b devastating... My feeling is that that matchup is won in two ways..whoever draws more angels..or a behemoth mass attack.
On the other hand..blue has access to revelation and verdict..which is super good vs GW..
I built my version of BGwu Frites as I mentioned that I would and took it to FNM yesterday (a few hours ago anyways). I have a big tournament later today and need some sleep so I cant say much about FNM, except that I went 3-1 in Swiss, making top 8. I survived top 8 to the finals and spit for $30 credit (each).
My matches were:
R1: 1-2 BUG control
R2: 2-0 GBW Frites
R3: 2-1 RU control
R4: 2-1 Rwu aggro
Top8: 2-1 GW aggro
Top4: 2-0 BUG control (same deck from R1)
Finals: split w/ Jund control (played for fun and I lost, kept hands with little land and did not draw any)
Anyways as I mentioned, I need to get some sleep, so I'm signing off for tonight. I will try to get a report together as well as my decklist (minor changes from FNM to the tourney) sometime later today (Saturday).:)
I tested this deck recentrly and i found the lack of removals frustrating.
The only way to remove a creature MD is with the 4 angels. Miss that and it is over for you.
Normal frites run 11-12 mill/draw spells (looting, Salvage, Mulch), while this one only runs 8 (even if both with flashback), since it relies a lot more on casting creatures than unburying them.
But this will cripple you on the long run, since if you need a removal, you better hope for that instead of actively looking.
When i tried this version i lost really bad against Jund, GW Aggro, RDW.
RDW
Was close..lost 2-1. I had to stall him with centaurs and angels (if i survived to 4 mana), but without removals i was fast overwhelmed. The 1 i won was thanks to double Wrath in the opening hand.
Jund
This is when i decided this deck was good...but had too many problems imo. Game 1. Olivia on turn 5-6. I got no Angel, and so no way to remove her. She killed me while he had a full hand cos didn't need to play anything else.
Game 2. Olivia on turn 4. See above for why i lost to a single card......(i sided 3 wrath and 3 spheres but didn't see any of them before dying).
Thragtusk was MVP. He got my 5 life before getting controlled from my opp.
GW Aggro.
Lost 2-0. Game 1 he plays Thalia, Rancor and Silverblade. Me = No removal. GG. Game 2 he plays Silverblade and Loxodon. Me = No removal. GG
So, when you build and play this deck...be extra careful of this HUGE weakness it has. Every other deck, from control to aggro, has a way to deal with opponent threats.....UGBW only has 4 7cmc angels (that don't really remove a threat but..postpone it).
I try to make the deck revolve around either craterhoof for the usual kill or slow things down with stormtide and fly and swim over for a slower win.
I added griselbrand since i couldn't find any other large creatures that I like, other than drogskol reaver. I was thinking reaver better fits the mold as he can be hard cast as griselbrand cannot be so easily. but he is an un canon and un tested option where as griselbrand is.
I left 1 skaab ruinator in there as he can be that extra flying beat down to go with leviathan or just be himself beat down.
clone is added for utility as well as cackling counterpart. theres nothing in this deck I wouldn't want to clone for ETB or just sheer size, that would end up swinging the game in my favor. thoug I could see the argument why not just run 3rd leviathan and craterhoof in there place. I might do that if i had extra's...
would it be that much better to drop utility creatures for heavy beaters?
(such as the clone effects and acidic slime)
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Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
With an Olivia in play you simply cannot stall. you just lose without a removal.
Against UW flash with a Pike in play on an angel, stalling is hard (but doable
thanks to shaman mostly)
Against a rancored Silverblade (or Silberblade bound something) Stalling simply is not possible (1st strike + trample = dmg over)
I played the standard UGWB build, so had only 3 black sources (2 of them fetchable with farseek), so only farseek main, no salvage.
G2 & G3 could be better, but don't ever forget that, while a wrath is useful, in this format is far from a solution. Geist and Thragtusk live around it. Rancor comes back in hand. Angel has flash so you can play it AFTER a wrath and still attack with it on next turn. And most of all....you up your removals from 0 to 3. When i play against aggro decks (Selesnya, Zombie, RDW), i play a total of 8 removals (with standard GWBR build), 5 main and 3 in side. ALL single target, and most of them instants. With wrath..if you have 3 creatures in play and opponent plays olivia...are you ready to kill all your creatures just to kill their only 1? If you are not...too bad cos you have to......
Wow, I'm still wrecking it with this deck. I placed in both events I played over the weekend. I've currently placed in 7 out of 8 events since I've started to pilot this deck. Let me know if you have any questions to particular matchups.
@Soulgix, Draek -- Yes, the original list doesn't have any mb removal. Over the weeks, I've altered the deck and now I mb 2 dspheres and 2 verdicts. My local meta has been rampant with g/w aggro/midrange so this change was needed.
But, the deck is still fine without running any mb removal. The deck is packed with so much value that you will most likely be ahead on board state or at least setting up to get there. I do agree that olivia is quite problematic but you should ALWAYS have your angel available to deal with her especially since CA is way more in your favor for this matchup. I think the jund/grixis matchup is only difficult because of slaughter games. That card can destroy this deck.
like other decks we can ramp into him, but unlike them we can unburial him...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
About Farseek vs Mulch: I find that Farseek is there MD so you CAN have a transformational sideboard. When you sideboard out your digging package, you don't side out Farseek, but you do side out Mulch. Ofc can have both
like other decks we can ramp into him, but unlike them we can unburial him...
I love it. Gaining 15+ life a turn and making 3 3/3 Beasts... I can live with that.
Permanently exiling all of my opponents creatures... I can live with that.
If I'm siding out my unburial rites, I like siding into Deadeye Navigator.
I've been playing with 2x Deadeye Navigator MD, and while fun, I think that I am going to trim them for different cards, mainly as I need a bunch of mana to make him work.
However, some of the better plays that I've done with him include:
him unpaired when I cast an Angel of Serenity. 2 triggers on the stack, let them pair, then let angel target 3 opponent's creatures. With that trigger on the stack pay 1U and blink angel which permanently exiling those creatures. Angel then blinks back into play and repeat for as much mana as you have.
him paired with one of my 2 SB acidic slimes. stone rain for 1U? Repeatable for as much mana as you have available
him paired with thragtusk. Attack with 1 or both, blink thragtusk to gain life and make a beast. Thragtusk comes back into play untapped (i.e. pseudo-vigilant)
him paired with any other creature: perfect blockers, you can block then blink and your creatures will not die from combat damage
i was testing against bant control last night, my opp ignored the navigator for several turns which ultimately cost hims. at 7 lands and 1 dork I reanimated craterhoof, and if that wasn't bad enough I had 4 mana left with 2 blue and I paired and blinked craterhoof twice for an additional 2 craterhoof triggers. all said and done I had hoof and deadeye with +9/+9 and trample or two 14/14s and struck for lethal. it was fun.
until you can safely re use his ability more than once, even i've noticed that he feels like an over priced vanilla 5/5.
once at 8 mana courses he can be used once. if cheated into play his ability might be able to be used more than once.
I suppose what I'm noticing is it doesn't feel like right out of the gate he is doing any more than what a restoration angel or clone could not do for us already...
I think i'll keep him as a 1 or 2 in the deck, just because late game being a repeatable angle/clone can be rediculusly powerful, I just can't at this point see him being a main focal point which is already taken up by craterhoof or angel of Serenity.
-------------------------------------------
in the past few days i cleaned my list up somewhat. how does this look?
i'm trying to go the stormtide route, currently I don't have access to angel of serenity which brings me to my next questions.
--should I replace the stormtide leviathan with angel of serenity if i ever got some?
--or should I run them along side each other? as they both some what in a controling fashion compliment each other's goals.
with the current build that I have I end up either going berserk aka overun with craterhoof or dropping and reanimating consecutive leviathans/clones of leviathan to beat people with 8/8 unblockables.
-------------------------------
while researching what goes good with leviathan I dug up increasing savagery and was wondering what you guys might have thought of it?
it can go to the graveyard like anything else through the dig package, and we got the right mana base to cast its flash back.
more so i was interested in the ability of just lingering souls or a restoration angel carrying those 5 to 10 +1/+1 counters over to the opponents face! which works for almost all variations of the deck.
in the case of leviathan strategy it simply makes leviathan a 13/13 or 18/18 unblockable!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
ive been playing with this version of deck thanks to my lack of overgrown tombs and woodland cemetary (only have 2 of each) and thus far the deck has run pretty good. my only stumble is when i get into nothing good with mulch and alchemist refuge multiple times because A.) unburial rites is a no show and all 4 are at the bottom of the deck, B.) all 3 Angel of Serenity and 3 Craterhoof Behemoth are at the bottom of the deck.
i really need more cavern of souls though honestly.
@Soulgix, Draek -- Yes, the original list doesn't have any mb removal. Over the weeks, I've altered the deck and now I mb 2 dspheres and 2 verdicts. My local meta has been rampant with g/w aggro/midrange so this change was needed.
I echo Minigiant's sentiments: Y U NO POST DECKLIST?!
All kidding aside, I'd love to see it. Also, has it been doing well recently?
ive been playing with this version of deck thanks to my lack of overgrown tombs and woodland cemetary (only have 2 of each) and thus far the deck has run pretty good. my only stumble is when i get into nothing good with mulch and alchemist refuge multiple times because A.) unburial rites is a no show and all 4 are at the bottom of the deck, B.) all 3 Angel of Serenity and 3 Craterhoof Behemoth are at the bottom of the deck.
i really need more cavern of souls though honestly.
If ur using cavern of souls. What is your creature bases common type to make cavern and effective filter?,
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Collaborative Pub: Ice Cold Thoughts Always On Tap Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
--------------------------------------------------- Vintage will rise again!Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I've played the mirror with the angel shenanigans and it hurts my head. I bring in memory's journey and a dsphere to help break the loop. Shaman does a ton of work here also especially against the red rites. You may even consider 1 selesnya charm since it can be used in a variety of matchups including the mirror.
Nice job on the 3-1.
They have more flashback spell, and while not necessarily better sideboard options then red they do bring some interesting ones
I think the loss of Zealous Conscripts as an options is a big deal, I also like options such as Evil Twin and Increasing Confusion (which just seems fun in the mirror or against certain control decks) maybe even dispel is you wanna try and **** on Revelation
I can certainly see the argument for this deck since the value is a better strategy verse control decks then more combo and straight mid ranged versions
On the other hand..blue has access to revelation and verdict..which is super good vs GW..
I built my version of BGwu Frites as I mentioned that I would and took it to FNM yesterday (a few hours ago anyways). I have a big tournament later today and need some sleep so I cant say much about FNM, except that I went 3-1 in Swiss, making top 8. I survived top 8 to the finals and spit for $30 credit (each).
My matches were:
R1: 1-2 BUG control
R2: 2-0 GBW Frites
R3: 2-1 RU control
R4: 2-1 Rwu aggro
Top8: 2-1 GW aggro
Top4: 2-0 BUG control (same deck from R1)
Finals: split w/ Jund control (played for fun and I lost, kept hands with little land and did not draw any)
Anyways as I mentioned, I need to get some sleep, so I'm signing off for tonight. I will try to get a report together as well as my decklist (minor changes from FNM to the tourney) sometime later today (Saturday).:)
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I tested this deck recentrly and i found the lack of removals frustrating.
The only way to remove a creature MD is with the 4 angels. Miss that and it is over for you.
Normal frites run 11-12 mill/draw spells (looting, Salvage, Mulch), while this one only runs 8 (even if both with flashback), since it relies a lot more on casting creatures than unburying them.
But this will cripple you on the long run, since if you need a removal, you better hope for that instead of actively looking.
When i tried this version i lost really bad against Jund, GW Aggro, RDW.
RDW
Was close..lost 2-1. I had to stall him with centaurs and angels (if i survived to 4 mana), but without removals i was fast overwhelmed. The 1 i won was thanks to double Wrath in the opening hand.
Jund
This is when i decided this deck was good...but had too many problems imo. Game 1. Olivia on turn 5-6. I got no Angel, and so no way to remove her. She killed me while he had a full hand cos didn't need to play anything else.
Game 2. Olivia on turn 4. See above for why i lost to a single card......(i sided 3 wrath and 3 spheres but didn't see any of them before dying).
Thragtusk was MVP. He got my 5 life before getting controlled from my opp.
GW Aggro.
Lost 2-0. Game 1 he plays Thalia, Rancor and Silverblade. Me = No removal. GG. Game 2 he plays Silverblade and Loxodon. Me = No removal. GG
So, when you build and play this deck...be extra careful of this HUGE weakness it has. Every other deck, from control to aggro, has a way to deal with opponent threats.....UGBW only has 4 7cmc angels (that don't really remove a threat but..postpone it).
4 arbor elf
4 forbidden alchemy
4 mulch
1 tracker's instinct
4 lingering souls
game winners
2 stormtide leviathan
1 skaab ruinator
2 craterhoof behemoth
1 clone
1 cackling counterpart
2 griselbrand
1 acidic slime
23 lands
I try to make the deck revolve around either craterhoof for the usual kill or slow things down with stormtide and fly and swim over for a slower win.
I added griselbrand since i couldn't find any other large creatures that I like, other than drogskol reaver. I was thinking reaver better fits the mold as he can be hard cast as griselbrand cannot be so easily. but he is an un canon and un tested option where as griselbrand is.
I left 1 skaab ruinator in there as he can be that extra flying beat down to go with leviathan or just be himself beat down.
clone is added for utility as well as cackling counterpart. theres nothing in this deck I wouldn't want to clone for ETB or just sheer size, that would end up swinging the game in my favor. thoug I could see the argument why not just run 3rd leviathan and craterhoof in there place. I might do that if i had extra's...
would it be that much better to drop utility creatures for heavy beaters?
(such as the clone effects and acidic slime)
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
With an Olivia in play you simply cannot stall. you just lose without a removal.
Against UW flash with a Pike in play on an angel, stalling is hard (but doable
thanks to shaman mostly)
Against a rancored Silverblade (or Silberblade bound something) Stalling simply is not possible (1st strike + trample = dmg over)
I played the standard UGWB build, so had only 3 black sources (2 of them fetchable with farseek), so only farseek main, no salvage.
G2 & G3 could be better, but don't ever forget that, while a wrath is useful, in this format is far from a solution. Geist and Thragtusk live around it. Rancor comes back in hand. Angel has flash so you can play it AFTER a wrath and still attack with it on next turn. And most of all....you up your removals from 0 to 3. When i play against aggro decks (Selesnya, Zombie, RDW), i play a total of 8 removals (with standard GWBR build), 5 main and 3 in side. ALL single target, and most of them instants. With wrath..if you have 3 creatures in play and opponent plays olivia...are you ready to kill all your creatures just to kill their only 1? If you are not...too bad cos you have to......
@Soulgix, Draek -- Yes, the original list doesn't have any mb removal. Over the weeks, I've altered the deck and now I mb 2 dspheres and 2 verdicts. My local meta has been rampant with g/w aggro/midrange so this change was needed.
But, the deck is still fine without running any mb removal. The deck is packed with so much value that you will most likely be ahead on board state or at least setting up to get there. I do agree that olivia is quite problematic but you should ALWAYS have your angel available to deal with her especially since CA is way more in your favor for this matchup. I think the jund/grixis matchup is only difficult because of slaughter games. That card can destroy this deck.
blinking centaur healer could be useful.
thragtusk even more so.
late game it could reset a craterhoof behemoth or even angel of serenity
like other decks we can ramp into him, but unlike them we can unburial him...
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I love it. Gaining 15+ life a turn and making 3 3/3 Beasts... I can live with that.
Permanently exiling all of my opponents creatures... I can live with that.
If I'm siding out my unburial rites, I like siding into Deadeye Navigator.
WRGBCombo MillWRGB
???
Modern:
UUWWErayo AffinityWWUU
WWGUEnchantress ControlUGWW
EDH:
GGBBGlissa MultiplayerBBGG
RRRRKazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs Land DestructionRRRR
However, some of the better plays that I've done with him include:
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
until you can safely re use his ability more than once, even i've noticed that he feels like an over priced vanilla 5/5.
once at 8 mana courses he can be used once. if cheated into play his ability might be able to be used more than once.
I suppose what I'm noticing is it doesn't feel like right out of the gate he is doing any more than what a restoration angel or clone could not do for us already...
I think i'll keep him as a 1 or 2 in the deck, just because late game being a repeatable angle/clone can be rediculusly powerful, I just can't at this point see him being a main focal point which is already taken up by craterhoof or angel of Serenity.
-------------------------------------------
in the past few days i cleaned my list up somewhat. how does this look?
3 stormtide leviathan
1 deadeye navigator
2 clone
2 restoration angel
3 centuar healer
4 avacyn's pilgrim
4 lingering souls
4 unburial rites
4 mulch
2 gavony township
22 other lands.
i'm trying to go the stormtide route, currently I don't have access to angel of serenity which brings me to my next questions.
--should I replace the stormtide leviathan with angel of serenity if i ever got some?
--or should I run them along side each other? as they both some what in a controling fashion compliment each other's goals.
with the current build that I have I end up either going berserk aka overun with craterhoof or dropping and reanimating consecutive leviathans/clones of leviathan to beat people with 8/8 unblockables.
-------------------------------
while researching what goes good with leviathan I dug up increasing savagery and was wondering what you guys might have thought of it?
it can go to the graveyard like anything else through the dig package, and we got the right mana base to cast its flash back.
more so i was interested in the ability of just lingering souls or a restoration angel carrying those 5 to 10 +1/+1 counters over to the opponents face! which works for almost all variations of the deck.
in the case of leviathan strategy it simply makes leviathan a 13/13 or 18/18 unblockable!
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
i really need more cavern of souls though honestly.
I echo Minigiant's sentiments: Y U NO POST DECKLIST?!
All kidding aside, I'd love to see it. Also, has it been doing well recently?
EVOLVE ALL THE THINGS!!!
If ur using cavern of souls. What is your creature bases common type to make cavern and effective filter?,
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
nothing but angels and beasts
Angel of Serenityx3
Restoration Angelx4
Thragtuskx4
Craterhoofx3
3x lingering souls to help with the early creature count.