I'm curious of competetive standard players' opinions on this, what do you think it would take to make milling your opponent from 60 to 0 a viable competetive win condition?
Something along the lines of Howling Mine or Font of Mythos. At the moment, all we have is Underworld Atlas which is no where near as good as the other two I have mentioned. If you are taking a Turbofog route, those cards would be optimal.
Honestly, as I have suggested before, I would think of using Undead Alchemist. The problem with mill historically (especially in standard with liek with cards like Unburial rites and GC floating around) is that you will often send a dude to the yard and they will just bring it back. With Alchemist you can ensure that the cards don't come back. On top of that, he allows you to gain some advantage from your milling, since he is constantly making zombies as you mill. These zombies can either act as blocks for you, or they can help speed up your milling since each of the zombies now also mill them.
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Something along the lines of Howling Mine or Font of Mythos. At the moment, all we have is Underworld Atlas which is no where near as good as the other two I have mentioned. If you are taking a Turbofog route, those cards would be optimal.
This. Essentially the route of turbo fog. You fog them out so they cant kill you, then counter their burn spells or whatnot and essentially win by making them draw out their deck while you use elixirs to not draw yours out.
To make mill a viable deck you would need mill cards such as Glimpse the Unthinkable at double power with the same cost. As well as having control aspects so that you don't die to aggro. IF mill were to be viable currently it would look like Bant, splash black. Not trying to be mean here just giving my $0.02.
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Geralf's Mindcrusher Helps you mill, combines with Alchemist to mill even more via combat damage, has undying so he has extra resiliance and allows his ability to trigger a second time.
What would really help though are cards like Mind Funeral to be reprinted with Dimir. Hopefully Dimir will bring some good mill (which isn't too unlikely since thye have a pretty heavy mill control theme the first time around)
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Undead Alchemist will be outclassed by every other 2+ creature drop on the board.
Geralf's Mindcrusher is not efficient enough. For 5 mana, decks are swinging with 5/5 flying hasters (1/4 of your health on each swing.)
Assuming a game lasts 13 turns and there are no extra draws, Mindcrusher mills 5/40 each time it enters, or 1/8ths health. IF it dies, you end up doing as much 'damage' as one swing from a Hellkite. And it's a higher cost than Thundermaw Hellkite.
Prolly some kind of loop, or some undercosted cards with a mill theme stapled to it, so you could have a real plan B. Something like Thought Scour + Savannah Lions
Me and my friend have made a viable, competitive mill deck. It's really a lockdown deck, and the win condition happens to be mill. Basically, we play U/W control with Supreme Verdict, Sphere of Safety, and Oblivion Rings, Detention Spheres, Pacifisms, Arrests, and so on. The deck has 1 single win condition, the 4 Jace, Memory Adept. You just do his 0 ability until they lose.
The card draw engine is 3 Sphinx's Revelation, which can be a beating for certain decks. You have to play 20+ creature control enchantments to deal with the current meta of LOLIPLAYFATTIES.
The sideboard takes care of everything that hoses it, with cards like Rest in Peace, Nevermore, Witchbane Orb, and some other stuff that slips my mind. Oh, also it plays Sands of Delirium in the sideboard as an alternate win condition for when they sideboard in a Nevermore of their own for Jace, or Pithing Needle for Jace, or Slaughter Games.
I helped design the thing but my friend pilots it all the time. It felt pretty awful last FNM when I lost to the damned thing while trying to play Rakdos Aggro.
This is the best thing I could think up as far as mill.
Undead Alchemist will be outclassed by every other 2+ creature drop on the board.
Geralf's Mindcrusher is not efficient enough. For 5 mana, decks are swinging with 5/5 flying hasters (1/4 of your health on each swing.)
Assuming a game lasts 13 turns and there are no extra draws, Mindcrusher mills 5/40 each time it enters, or 1/8ths health. IF it dies, you end up doing as much 'damage' as one swing from a Hellkite. And it's a higher cost than Thundermaw Hellkite.
Except that they will be losing alot of their creatures to Alchemist.
Additionally, You don't use alchemist himself to attack. You use him for his ability to remove threats as you mill and use the zombies he creatures to clog the board. If they are low on creatures then you can use them to go offensive.
Also, remeber if your playing mill then you are playing blue. If youare playing control you have ways to prevent their thundermaw from entering the battlefield (AKA counter it).
Oh as to your comment about decks playing 5/5 flying hasters at 5 mana you are slightly incorrect. Most decks right now are playing 5/3 beasts that gain them 5 life (which means NOTHING to you).
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I'd also like to note that playing a 4/2 for 4 like Undead Alchemist is a bad idea in a meta entirely composed of 8 out of 10 people playing Pillar of Flame maindeck. This is why I choose to go creatureless.
Yeah I think the tension is that R&D could never really allow the deck to work without being able to hate it out. Too devastating of a combo. So they will leave it to slower control decks that might not get there. I've won local events with mill decks (Bant Allies) and as said in the thread it was cause the deck was an aggro deck with a mill alternative win condition. For the most part this is still a pretty bad plan cause it's like splitting your deck between poison and non-poison. The classic Braingeyser the opponent for 30 I still think is the most applicable type of mill maybe with some Drownyards. Turbofog will show up from now and then usually around the time of the Core set release since the Core set has the most mill cards dual draw type effects and having 2 sets in Standard is redundancy.
The truth is Mill is just not the type of archetype they want to ever see succeed in it's own right I'm pretty sure. It's amusing when it does for a week but it's almost impossible to in a Tier 1 deck unless it's incidental. Oh Caw Blade with SoBaM,.. I mill you faster than I kill you with damage.. etc.. They include it I think to teach us about the game and occasionally serve as a win condition in a short lived combo deck or alternative win condition in a control deck. It sits there out in Tier 3 always waiting to pounce on an unsuspecting victim and give some Johnny player incredible satisfaction that in that moment, at that one time for all time, it just worked. And that is amazing.
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If you want it to be competitive, the best way is basically to play a control deck. UB Control with Nephalia Drownyard was a somewhat viable choice at times during the last rotation. It's not popular now, but it should be viable once the Dimir cards in Gatecrash are released. Drownyard is effective because it's repeatable and difficult to get rid of (Besides Ghost Quarter and Acidic Slime, there's almost no way to remove lands in Standard.)
Cards like Mind Sculpt and Dream Twist are bad because they're one shot. Undead Alchemist is bad because you have to deal damage to your opponent, and it's much easier to deal 20 damage to an opponent rather than 50 damage. The viable mill-based wincons in Standard are Nephalia Drownyard, Jace, Memory Adept, and to a lesser extent Sands of Delirium. The rest of the deck should be focused on shutting down your opponent, because all three of those options take a long time to finish the game. Counterspells, wraths, and removal are all necessary.
If you want it to be competitive, the best way is basically to play a control deck. UB Control with Nephalia Drownyard was a somewhat viable choice at times during the last rotation. It's not popular now, but it should be viable once the Dimir cards in Gatecrash are released. Drownyard is effective because it's repeatable and difficult to get rid of (Besides Ghost Quarter and Acidic Slime, there's almost no way to remove lands in Standard.)
Cards like Mind Sculpt and Dream Twist are bad because they're one shot. Undead Alchemist is bad because you have to deal damage to your opponent, and it's much easier to deal 20 damage to an opponent rather than 50 damage. The viable mill-based wincons in Standard are Nephalia Drownyard, Jace, Memory Adept, and to a lesser extent Sands of Delirium. The rest of the deck should be focused on shutting down your opponent, because all three of those options take a long time to finish the game. Counterspells, wraths, and removal are all necessary.
Pretty much exactly how the deck me and my friend made works except it does White/Blue and Enchantments. If you get Sphere of Safety and a bunch of enchantments on the board its nearly impossible to fight through that, and it IS impossible to fight through it with 2 Spheres on board. Basically, to make mill viable, you have to slow the game down.
So yeah, doing mill with creatures like Alchemist and Mindcrusher is a horrible strategy.
Pretty much exactly how the deck me and my friend made works except it does White/Blue and Enchantments. If you get Sphere of Safety and a bunch of enchantments on the board its nearly impossible to fight through that, and it IS impossible to fight through it with 2 Spheres on board. Basically, to make mill viable, you have to slow the game down.
So yeah, doing mill with creatures like Alchemist and Mindcrusher is a horrible strategy.
You don't depend on alchemist to do mill. That is playing like a bad magic player. His ability does not require to attack. U just have him sit there and then mill thin as u normally would. That allows you to passively make creatures. The creatures just act to clog the board with tokens that u use as blockers. Then, if it is profitable for u to do so, u can attack.
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You don't depend on alchemist to do mill. That is playing like a bad magic player. His ability does not require to attack. U just have him sit there and then mill thin as u normally would. That allows you to passively make creatures. The creatures just act to clog the board with tokens that u use as blockers. Then, if it is profitable for u to do so, u can attack.
I understand the strategy but it's a horrible thing to try and base a deck around a 2 toughness creature when every deck plays answers to a 2 toughness creature. Pillar of Flame, Searing Spear, Dreadbore, Ultimate Price, Auger Spree, etc are all things that can be played to kill that thing deader than hell. And if your answer is to say, okay, I'm playing counterspells...are you really going to wait until turn 6 to have 6 mana to be able to Negate something after playing him? If thats the case, you'll probably already be dead to Thragtusk or Angel of Serenity.
I'm just saying that you have to create a deck that plays a different game of Magic in order to make mill viable. You have to produce dead cards in your opponents deck, which is exactly what something like I described does. The look on peoples faces when they have a hand full of something like Ultimate Price or Essence Scatter is priceless.
This strategy is best accompanied by a Turbo Fog blueprint. Turbo Fog didnt really care about creatures resolving (unless they had some deadly ETB effect that would harm you) and burn damage. The only problem with milling is probably the draw engine. It needs tons of draw, like howling mine etc. You might be able to handle it somehwhat with Jace, you just have to keep him alive so he can draw you more cards. SRevelation would help as well, by more draw and lifegain. You'd need green (and no, not for Thragtusk) but most of the Fog effects are green. Elixir of Immortality would also help as it reshuffles all your fog effects. I think the tools are they're for the deck.
just use jace, elixer of immortality, and a dumptruck full of permission spells. You would become pretty unpopular at your local FNM, but it would work.
I understand the strategy but it's a horrible thing to try and base a deck around a 2 toughness creature when every deck plays answers to a 2 toughness creature. Pillar of Flame, Searing Spear, Dreadbore, Ultimate Price, Auger Spree, etc are all things that can be played to kill that thing deader than hell. And if your answer is to say, okay, I'm playing counterspells...are you really going to wait until turn 6 to have 6 mana to be able to Negate something after playing him? If thats the case, you'll probably already be dead to Thragtusk or Angel of Serenity.
I'm just saying that you have to create a deck that plays a different game of Magic in order to make mill viable. You have to produce dead cards in your opponents deck, which is exactly what something like I described does. The look on peoples faces when they have a hand full of something like Ultimate Price or Essence Scatter is priceless.
Then don't build AROUND him. If you are already milling them anyway, all he does it give u some value out of your mills and give u some board presence. If he dies, so be it. Not every card is delver. Not every card needs to built around. He just kinda fits in since you are ALREADY going to be milling them one way or another.
He helps fix the fundamental flaws with mill:
1) dedicated mill cards create card disadvantage: he helps u get value from things like increasing confusion by also giving u creatures.
2) if a deck has any GY interactibility you are giving them fuel: whether the deck has rites or GC or a Deathrite shaman, mill gives them fuel. My removing their creatures as u mill, u help to SEVERLY weaken their position and helps your mill cards create some more card advantage. Especially with the angel of serenity bill crap that is going on. If u send like a tusk to the yard they will just bring it right back. Alchemist ensures that, that won't happen.
Again, you guys are thinking all wrong. He is not a build around card, and he is not an aggro card. He is a card that gives mill decks options and answers while not diluting the core of the deck.
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There was an interesting post on Wizards' website today : Fogception. Do you guys think it would be possible to tweak Gavin Verhey's deck into a viable turbofog with mill as a win condition?
His deck list struck me as vulnerable to burn decks. You can fog a RDW's creatures all day but they'll just burn you slowly until you plummet to zero. Would Otherworld Atlas + Sphinx' Revelation(s) be enough to counteract the burn?
I also dread control decks. At my LGS, it's mostly "Stall until I miracle an entreat the angels" with a few exceptions. Wouldn't turbofog be counterproductive against these types of decks?
Verhey's deck is already three colours but Nephalia Drownyard seems like such a no-brainer in a deck where mill is the win condition...
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
This. Essentially the route of turbo fog. You fog them out so they cant kill you, then counter their burn spells or whatnot and essentially win by making them draw out their deck while you use elixirs to not draw yours out.
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Basically it would have to be the best standalone mill card, EVER.
Or wizards could print a string of cards all intended to enable a mill strategy, think efficiency like Thragtusk but geared towards milling.
Undead Alchemist helps create a board presence while milling
Geralf's Mindcrusher Helps you mill, combines with Alchemist to mill even more via combat damage, has undying so he has extra resiliance and allows his ability to trigger a second time.
What would really help though are cards like Mind Funeral to be reprinted with Dimir. Hopefully Dimir will bring some good mill (which isn't too unlikely since thye have a pretty heavy mill control theme the first time around)
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Geralf's Mindcrusher is not efficient enough. For 5 mana, decks are swinging with 5/5 flying hasters (1/4 of your health on each swing.)
Assuming a game lasts 13 turns and there are no extra draws, Mindcrusher mills 5/40 each time it enters, or 1/8ths health. IF it dies, you end up doing as much 'damage' as one swing from a Hellkite. And it's a higher cost than Thundermaw Hellkite.
The card draw engine is 3 Sphinx's Revelation, which can be a beating for certain decks. You have to play 20+ creature control enchantments to deal with the current meta of LOLIPLAYFATTIES.
The sideboard takes care of everything that hoses it, with cards like Rest in Peace, Nevermore, Witchbane Orb, and some other stuff that slips my mind. Oh, also it plays Sands of Delirium in the sideboard as an alternate win condition for when they sideboard in a Nevermore of their own for Jace, or Pithing Needle for Jace, or Slaughter Games.
I helped design the thing but my friend pilots it all the time. It felt pretty awful last FNM when I lost to the damned thing while trying to play Rakdos Aggro.
This is the best thing I could think up as far as mill.
Except that they will be losing alot of their creatures to Alchemist.
Additionally, You don't use alchemist himself to attack. You use him for his ability to remove threats as you mill and use the zombies he creatures to clog the board. If they are low on creatures then you can use them to go offensive.
Also, remeber if your playing mill then you are playing blue. If youare playing control you have ways to prevent their thundermaw from entering the battlefield (AKA counter it).
Oh as to your comment about decks playing 5/5 flying hasters at 5 mana you are slightly incorrect. Most decks right now are playing 5/3 beasts that gain them 5 life (which means NOTHING to you).
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
The truth is Mill is just not the type of archetype they want to ever see succeed in it's own right I'm pretty sure. It's amusing when it does for a week but it's almost impossible to in a Tier 1 deck unless it's incidental. Oh Caw Blade with SoBaM,.. I mill you faster than I kill you with damage.. etc.. They include it I think to teach us about the game and occasionally serve as a win condition in a short lived combo deck or alternative win condition in a control deck. It sits there out in Tier 3 always waiting to pounce on an unsuspecting victim and give some Johnny player incredible satisfaction that in that moment, at that one time for all time, it just worked. And that is amazing.
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Cards like Mind Sculpt and Dream Twist are bad because they're one shot. Undead Alchemist is bad because you have to deal damage to your opponent, and it's much easier to deal 20 damage to an opponent rather than 50 damage. The viable mill-based wincons in Standard are Nephalia Drownyard, Jace, Memory Adept, and to a lesser extent Sands of Delirium. The rest of the deck should be focused on shutting down your opponent, because all three of those options take a long time to finish the game. Counterspells, wraths, and removal are all necessary.
Pretty much exactly how the deck me and my friend made works except it does White/Blue and Enchantments. If you get Sphere of Safety and a bunch of enchantments on the board its nearly impossible to fight through that, and it IS impossible to fight through it with 2 Spheres on board. Basically, to make mill viable, you have to slow the game down.
So yeah, doing mill with creatures like Alchemist and Mindcrusher is a horrible strategy.
You don't depend on alchemist to do mill. That is playing like a bad magic player. His ability does not require to attack. U just have him sit there and then mill thin as u normally would. That allows you to passively make creatures. The creatures just act to clog the board with tokens that u use as blockers. Then, if it is profitable for u to do so, u can attack.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
I understand the strategy but it's a horrible thing to try and base a deck around a 2 toughness creature when every deck plays answers to a 2 toughness creature. Pillar of Flame, Searing Spear, Dreadbore, Ultimate Price, Auger Spree, etc are all things that can be played to kill that thing deader than hell. And if your answer is to say, okay, I'm playing counterspells...are you really going to wait until turn 6 to have 6 mana to be able to Negate something after playing him? If thats the case, you'll probably already be dead to Thragtusk or Angel of Serenity.
I'm just saying that you have to create a deck that plays a different game of Magic in order to make mill viable. You have to produce dead cards in your opponents deck, which is exactly what something like I described does. The look on peoples faces when they have a hand full of something like Ultimate Price or Essence Scatter is priceless.
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Then don't build AROUND him. If you are already milling them anyway, all he does it give u some value out of your mills and give u some board presence. If he dies, so be it. Not every card is delver. Not every card needs to built around. He just kinda fits in since you are ALREADY going to be milling them one way or another.
He helps fix the fundamental flaws with mill:
1) dedicated mill cards create card disadvantage: he helps u get value from things like increasing confusion by also giving u creatures.
2) if a deck has any GY interactibility you are giving them fuel: whether the deck has rites or GC or a Deathrite shaman, mill gives them fuel. My removing their creatures as u mill, u help to SEVERLY weaken their position and helps your mill cards create some more card advantage. Especially with the angel of serenity bill crap that is going on. If u send like a tusk to the yard they will just bring it right back. Alchemist ensures that, that won't happen.
Again, you guys are thinking all wrong. He is not a build around card, and he is not an aggro card. He is a card that gives mill decks options and answers while not diluting the core of the deck.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
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I feel like this deck is pretty competitive and also pretty cheap.
His deck list struck me as vulnerable to burn decks. You can fog a RDW's creatures all day but they'll just burn you slowly until you plummet to zero. Would Otherworld Atlas + Sphinx' Revelation(s) be enough to counteract the burn?
I also dread control decks. At my LGS, it's mostly "Stall until I miracle an entreat the angels" with a few exceptions. Wouldn't turbofog be counterproductive against these types of decks?
Verhey's deck is already three colours but Nephalia Drownyard seems like such a no-brainer in a deck where mill is the win condition...