Dissipate vs. Syncopate

  • #1
    Dissipate. Syncopate.

    I've been playing Bant Control for a while, and I've noticed that Syncopate is often just a very over-costed Dissipate. I'm never really happy to see Syncopate at any stage, and I'm usually casting it as a soft Dissipate anyway (as in, for 3 mana). I'm considering moving Dissipate to the main and cutting Syncopate altogether.

    The problem with this, however, is that I understand that the numbers on countermagic are there for a reason and that those numbers give you a game in the control mirror, so I'm throwing the discussion open to you guys. Should Dissipate be the maindeck counter of choice? Is there a better option right now than Syncopate?
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  • #2
    I don't know ! Ppl often tap out to cast for the 5-6 first turns of the game so Syncopate is hard counter for 1U at these time. Still I agree that it loses it's interest quickly.
    I'll give it a try tonight, with 2 Dissipate MB, 1 SB, +2Negate SB.

    Dissipate is also the perfect answer to Sever the blooline, so maybe with a deck leaning on Entreat the angel...

    Negate may be an good option too versus control, Jund midrange (counter dat Rakdos Return !), tokens, but hardly versus aggro (maybe if you get a Bump in the night, or get a Azo charm to kill St traft...)

    This is my main problem with Bant control : Why not X instead of Y, why not 3 Angel instead of 2, etc...
  • #3
    Quote from Wombattitude
    I don't know ! Ppl often tap out to cast for the 5-6 first turns of the game so Syncopate is hard counter for 1U at these time. Still I agree that it loses it's interest quickly.
    I'll give it a try tonight, with 2 Dissipate MB, 1 SB, +2Negate SB.

    Let me know how it goes!

    Dissipate is also the perfect answer to Sever the blooline, so maybe with a deck leaning on Entreat the angel...

    With all the Spheres running around, I don't think Entreat is all that great. I personally made the switch to a more creature-centric list recently, though I haven't put it though any serious testing.

    Negate may be an good option too versus control, Jund midrange (counter dat Rakdos Return !), tokens, but hardly versus aggro (maybe if you get a Bump in the night, or get a Azo charm to kill St traft...)

    Maybe 1 Dissipate, 3 Negate in the side, to go with the 2 Dissipates in the main?

    This is my main problem with Bant control : Why not X instead of Y, why not 3 Angel instead of 2, etc...

    It's difficult to make those choices, and they're often dependant on the metagame. That's why I find it so useful to hear other peoples opinions on the matter. Smile
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  • #4
    I ended up playing 2 Syncopate main & 2 Dissipate / 2 Negate sideboard.
    In general I'm playing Syncopate, beacause i wanna have more solutions for Turn 2 Thalia & I'm playing Garruk – besides Jace ofc – which is rather mana intensive.:D
  • #5
    I think it's just a matter of preference...I personally find that I'm willing to put up with having a hard counter turn 3+, then the potential for countering something on turn 2. The UU requirement is also something to consider, considering that you're trying to hit turn 4 double ww, but I guess you're also already trying to hit UU for jace. I'm prefer dissipate because I'm kind of a set it and forget it kind of guy so leaving 3 up seems easier. I also think that in the vast majority of cases, you should be prioritizing your very limited amount of counter for the big guns. (That being said, I've also really considered swapping the two dissipates as my sole mainboard counter, for two negates. It seems like everything I want to counter is non-creature i.e plansewalkers, burn, rakdos return etc....but I still like countering thragtusk so for now I'm undecided)).
  • #6
    I'm currently running 2 Syncopate, but I'm considering this same question myself.

    With only 2 counters MD, the chances of drawing an early game Syncopate are pretty low. The likelihood of seeing Syncopate in our starting hand is only 22%, and after 3 draws (Turn 3/4) it only rises to 31%. This means that Syncopate's main strength over Dissipate, the early game, is seriously undermined by the fact that we've got a reasonably low chance of seeing it early enough for it's advantage to kick in. After 7 draws, we're at a 42% chance of seeing at least one copy, which still isn't amazingly high. By this point, Dissipate has almost certainly taken over as a superior option.
  • #7
    I believe they are both very good cards. But, do different roles. Dissipate is a lot better when you are being defensive. While syncopate is very good at being offensive. Syncopate is the best syncopate counter. Lets say its turn 10. You and your opponent both have 10 lands out all untapped. You play a jace, you have 6 mana up, they have 10. They now have to think about syncopating you for 7 leaving them with 2 mana up. But, the issue with that is what if you have one back you can counter back only tapping 4 and the board state will end up like this:
    You have jace 2 mana open
    Them 2 mana open.

    You clearly win out at this stage. People also underrate the exile effect on syncopate. People are still playing flashback cards along with ways to interact with the graveyard (angel of serenity/the 2/1 zombie whos name i cant remember atm.)

    I am currently on 2 syncopate and i am really considering going up to 3.

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  • #8
    In my RUG Control list I am currently running a 2/2 split maindeck and 1 Negate-2 Essence Scatter in the board. Seems to work just fine.
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  • #9
    I prefer Dissipate or any hard counter over Syncopate 100%, but it's strictly a playstyle and deck design choice.
  • #10
    I run 2 Syncopate main and 2 Dissipate and 2 Negate in the board. You need turn 2 plays for a turn 3 Geist or Turn 2 Thalia, etc. it's helpful to have a cheap counter. Does it suck late game? Sure but it still works. It's flexible

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  • #11
    Quote from DXI-Edge
    I run 2 Syncopate main and 2 Dissipate and 2 Negate in the board.


    As of two days ago I started running the exact same suite. Are you my alter ego or something?
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  • #12
    Quote from DXI-Edge
    I run 2 Syncopate main and 2 Dissipate and 2 Negate in the board. You need turn 2 plays for a turn 3 Geist or Turn 2 Thalia, etc. it's helpful to have a cheap counter. Does it suck late game? Sure but it still works. It's flexible
    This. Flexibility is all what Syncopate is about. Yeah having a hard counter like Dissipate is nice, however having the 1UU on turn 3 can be rough at times making it very unreliable.
  • #13
    The other thing to remember with Syncopate is exactly what it helps you counter. On the play, it's the only real way of dealing with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben unless you run Essence Scatter. And on the draw, it's almost guaranteed to get rid of a Geist of Saint Traft/Geralf's Messenger/Silverblade Paladin/Rakdos Keyrune. That helps it make up for being worse in the later game. But against most decks it's fine late too, since outside the mirror we out-land everyone else between running more lands and running more card draw and running Farseek. And it's not like we're usually going to wait until 10 mana to play Angel of Serenity or whatnot.
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  • #14
    Quote from Ghisteslwchlohm
    As of two days ago I started running the exact same suite. Are you my alter ego or something?


    Lol no but if something is good people are bound to start doing it eventually :p

    The deck has been very good for me in its current iteration. If my buddy wasn't using my Jace's i would be very happy just jamming Bant in every tournament I played in but I am playing UWR Tempo instead.

    Next week I should be playing this again though. ****ing LOVE it

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  • #15
    I personally use 3 syncopate-s + 2 dissipate-s MB, and 2 negate and 2 essence scatter in SB
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  • #16
    If you ever spend 3 or more mana on a Syncopate then you should be running Dissipate instead. Control decks I think Dissipate is just far better. Syncopate was awesome at the start, but I am seeing Dissipate working better now.
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  • #17
    Quote from Damaja
    If you ever spend 3 or more mana on a Syncopate then you should be running Dissipate instead. Control decks I think Dissipate is just far better. Syncopate was awesome at the start, but I am seeing Dissipate working better now.


    The same logic draws the conclusion that if you ever spend 2 mana on a Syncopate, you should be running Syncopate instead. Both can't be true, so the logic is flawed.

    The number of Geists I've stopped on turn 2 on the draw with Syncopate earns it a place as a reasonably good catch-all. IMO, game 2-3 is where you bring in Dissipates (and Negates) if the matchup demands it, but too often in my experience you'll let them get all the presence they need turns 1-3 and then have a dead Dissipate in hand because now you need to start tapping out. (Especially true against GW beatdown.) If Dissipate works in your deck and your environment, cool. I just disagree with the reasoning you outlined here.
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  • #18
    I've been gradually dialing back the number of Syncopates in my sideboard, and I'm pretty sure I'm just going to take 'em out for something else. Every single time I've drawn it, I was left wishing it was Dissipate. Maybe Counterflux, for the mirror.
  • #19
    I like Syncopate mainly because of the single blue requirement, but also to stop GoST on the play or draw. GoST is all over the place, almost as much as thragtusk.
  • #20
    I recently played a list sans-counters for more board wipes and D-Sphere's. I figure I'll be tapping out so much with Farseek Sphere's Jace and Wipes, that Counters aren't' worth it. I suppose in a deck running more Resto-Angels you'd replace the terminus' with Counters.
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  • #21
    Quote from Ghisteslwchlohm
    The same logic draws the conclusion that if you ever spend 2 mana on a Syncopate, you should be running Syncopate instead. Both can't be true, so the logic is flawed.

    The number of Geists I've stopped on turn 2 on the draw with Syncopate earns it a place as a reasonably good catch-all. IMO, game 2-3 is where you bring in Dissipates (and Negates) if the matchup demands it, but too often in my experience you'll let them get all the presence they need turns 1-3 and then have a dead Dissipate in hand because now you need to start tapping out. (Especially true against GW beatdown.) If Dissipate works in your deck and your environment, cool. I just disagree with the reasoning you outlined here.


    what exactly is so important that you need counter magic up on T1-2 that you cant handle already with a non counter spell? if they DO land a Jace, then you simply handle it another way but not ONCE have I wished I was holding a Syncopate over a Dissipate in my Azorius Control build.
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  • #22
    geist of saint traft
  • #23
    Dissipate seems useless against aggro decks because it has a CMC of 3 and comes down after you are being pressured.

    Syncopate has the critical minimum CMC of 2 when used to counter, and that is huge.
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  • #24
    Quote from Damaja
    what exactly is so important that you need counter magic up on T1-2 that you cant handle already with a non counter spell? if they DO land a Jace, then you simply handle it another way but not ONCE have I wished I was holding a Syncopate over a Dissipate in my Azorius Control build.


    Mostly geist of saint traft, geralfs messenger, lotleth troll, red cards, etc. Against aggro decks, syncopate is much better in the color game by virtue of being worth a card in the early game.

    Dissapate is better when you have a more consistent mana base and/or have acceleration that allows you to jump from stage 1 to 2 fairly quickly. So basically, it all comes down to deck construction on which is better. In Azorius and bant builds, I think you'd rather have dissipate, everything else, syncopate. If you're running some sort of U/B control deck with drownyards, it's possible you want both.

    If you're in the weird(but real) position of only wanting one counterspell, I'd definitely want dissipate instead though since the odds of drawing it early are low, but it's much better late in the game.
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  • #25
    I mostly play U/W Control, and I have tried different countermagic configurations from none to 6. I have found though, that I do prefer to have 3 Syncopates in general and 1-2 Dissipates at max, depending for late game. Syncopate is a necessary evil, because it helps the early stage of the game where your weakest. Being on the draw with it matters even moreso, because most opponents are tapping out to apply pressure. The exile clause also matters against undying things like SRGeist/GMessengers. And, we all know you can't if possible allow GoST to resolve. Syncopate is generically stronger just because it helps so much early stage. I found 2 was never enough, and 4 was overkill. I think 3 syncopate is just fine, and I typically play 1 Dissipate. Syncopate is also live versus high end spells like Thragtusk, Planeswalkers etc. Dissipate is decent, just because its a hard counterspell, but its very difficult to manage it since I often must tapout turns 4-5 to land SVerdict/Jace/Tamiyo. I can't sit back and lean on Dissipate, so I left it as a 1 of as a blanket catchall for the stack late game. I think I am wrong here though, as most tools can address problem situations because most of them are permanents not spells. You really just need enough countermagic to sirvive stage 1-3. Syncopate does this just fine. Turns 1-3 were not tapping out, we are developing mana and possibly casting TTwice EOT or using ACharm/FODread to stop attackers while we wait to draw a sweeper/dsphere etc. Syncopate helps on these critical turns. It should also be mentioned that Syncopate can help stage 1 if on the draw. Thats HUGE.
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