I'm of the opinion that neither Vexing Devil nor Nivmagus Elemental belong either, but they are (at least) aggressively costed, so they're not usually straight up dead cards like Bonfire is.
Also wouldnt that be helpful to monored lists as well providing the deck thinning aspect so you draw more fuel?
Using fetch lands for "deck thinning" is not a good enough reason to run them. The probability increase of drawing more threats is statistically negligible over the course of an average game. Over the course of an average aggro deck's game it's absolutely laughable.
Exchanging the deck's very real consistency and speed for trivial gains is not a good trade.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Why do you think Bonfire is bad in aggro? I don't think this is a deck that have to kill in turn 5 or 6 like you any other chance. This times with the rotation the decks we play will be usual sub par ones and we have to be consistence. I have one zombie deck that a friend of mine pilot with 2 bonfire main that made real good results recently and I never remember he said that it's bad when he miracle that instead of playing a messenger on turn 3.
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Here is Michael Jacob's Mono Red that won the US Nationals in 2008. For those interested in a more midrange deck, you might be able to get something from this. Be warned, it is extremely mana greedy
It doesnt take long to realise we can upgrade a lot of cards in the deck and make close approximates of the others, so there might be something there. I will leave it to the Rakdos enthusiasts
Hmmm. I'll take a shot at it. I'm actually an Izzet enthusiast, but since we don't have Grimoire Thief, Goblin Guide or Kargan Dragonlord, I'll put a Rakdos spin on it:
This is theoretical; I love this model for red decks, though. Lets me combine some good weenies with higher-end stuff like Thundermaw (or the in case of my Legacy casual Izzet deck, Niv-Mizzet).
Why do you think Bonfire is bad in aggro? I don't think this is a deck that have to kill in turn 5 or 6 like you any other chance. This times with the rotation the decks we play will be usual sub par ones and we have to be consistence. I have one zombie deck that a friend of mine pilot with 2 bonfire main that made real good results recently and I never remember he said that it's bad when he miracle that instead of playing a messenger on turn 3.
Here's the gist of my arguement:
1. RDW's average winning game will last 6 turns or less.
2. With 22 land, you will statistically have 4 in play by turn 6.
-Considering points 1 and 2, on average, a Bonfire played from the hand will have X = 1 - and Bonfire for 1, generally speaking, sucks.
-Considering points 1 and 2, you will have 4 chances in the average game to Miracle Bonfire (turns 3-6), but 8-9 chances to draw it and not.
That means Bonfire is twice as likely to suck in an average game as it is to be playable. Not good (I don't consider Bonfire for 1, even miracled, to be good), but just playable.
As an aside, if you don't think this deck needs to win in the first 6 turns, then I don't know what to tell you. RDW's late game has always been lacking.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Here is Michael Jacob's Mono Red that won the US Nationals in 2008. For those interested in a more midrange deck, you might be able to get something from this. Be warned, it is extremely mana greedy
It doesnt take long to realise we can upgrade a lot of cards in the deck and make close approximates of the others, so there might be something there. I will leave it to the Rakdos enthusiasts
This really excites me. I may not have played myself during this format, but everything I've read/heard/seen of it is that is was incredibly fast (thanks to the Lorwyn Block) and unforgiving. Falling a turn behind usually cost the game. So seeing that an aggro Red deck won such a large event running 4 of a 5cmc creature makes me really rethink what's possible this season. ThunderMaw Hellkite is often compared to Demigod of Revenge anyway, so maybe there is a way to mirror this deck's playstyle with the current T2 cardpool. I'll take a shot at it. Love me some brews.
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Glad to have you on board also if you want help/to throw some decklists and ideas back and forth I'm game to work on R/B and this archtype with you.
Thanks! I'm happy to add and trim on some lists to find the perfect medium with you. I don't want to diss MonoR, since I am very into it (playgroup picks on me for never playing other colors outside of splashes), but R/B just looks more capable right now.
RDW late has always been lacking, I agree but midrange game can not be that way. I play Mono-red in legacy, modern and standard. Last season play with Goblins and RDW for months and I'm not look for Mono-red like you do for sure. If you go to a full overextended strategic you will not have success at long time.
The meta is full of decks with fast and small creatures or "dorks" that give mana that usual were kill for a bonfire at 1 or 2. It can give me really advantage in the game and let me extended my game without use many resources.
In one qualifier for a SCG I had a game that I lock my opponent with a Liliana of the veil, a Sorin and a Gideon Jura and I lose to a Miracle Bonfire for 7 or 8!
Do I put away the best Red card in standard, the card that can change a game and is the colour that I play because sometimes that will be a dead card in my open hand? Really?
You don't like Vexing Devil and Nivmagus Elemental? Ok any one make their choices.
People will prefer to use sub par creatures only because they cost few mana? Do the new radkos creature that become 3/2 (with unlashed) for 2 mana be compare to the Stromblood Beserker? 3 power at 3 turn, one with another ability that make him very evasive because can only be block for 2 or more creatures and one simple 3/2 that can never block? Comparable? No!
We have to use our good cards and not the cards that have a little cost and are sub par. Vexing for example can be a nice turn 3 or 4 drop that let us to have mana open to use in instants if we need. a 4/3 for 1 mana? Really bad? Only if you put it on first turn! Our opponent will pay for life and we will not have any threat in the board. Nivamagus is one creature that I want to try, because it seems to me that he can survive easily a Bonfire, with the exile of an Instant. It will grow and probably crush the strategy of our opponent.
Of course all of this can be my crap thoughts, but I'm thinking in a competitive meta and not in a casual/FNM meta. This is like the discussion in Legacy about turn 3 kill. In a big tournament how many times did that happen? Very few and only against a limited types of decks.
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LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Hello fellow Red Mages! Been following this Primer avidly for a while now, waiting for approval to post so I can share some things I've tried/noticed. I played Mono Red all last season and will likely play it this coming season unless the deck I'm working with now (splashing black) proves more capable.
Looking first at my creature line-up, it's mostly typical. Rakdos Cackler and Stromkirk Noble are the deck's favorite Turn 1 plays, usually getting in for the most of the first half of my opponent's life. There is a lot of controversy surrounding my last cmc1 creature; Vexing Devil. Allow my to justify my reason for including this quirky individual before dismissing my entire list after seeing its name.
Vexing Devil is in most situations NOT a Turn 1 play. I did not put him into the deck to start the game a turn behind but 4 life ahead, but because he performs well with other cards in the deck. If my opening hand has Vexing Devil as my only Turn 1 play, that doesn't mean I throw the hand back in my deck and go to 6. If I have a curve after that play, I'll likely still go on with the hand, but that is not ideal by any means to me. No, Vexing Devil is to me a post-boardwipe spell that will give my opponent an actual choice. Most boardwipes won't hit until around your opponent's 4th-5th turn, after my first wave has pushed in. Once I'm cleared, playing a Vexing Devil gives them two choices. One is to take the 4 and drop their life to burn range. The other is risk leaving the 4/3 body on the board while they look for an answer that doesn't result in taking any damage.
Additionally, unless it's the best plan of action, I try not to extend out more than 3-4 creatures against a deck capable of sweeping them away, so I have a recovery plan. That said, I have on many occasions played the Devil, had him stick - with the opposing mind thinking they could just remove him after untaps - and followed up with a Lightning Mauler and swung in for 6. A little more than they'd expect after using a boardwipe. Speaking of Lightning Mauler, let's move on to my 2cmc's.
Ash Zealot and Lightning Mauler are both 2-power hasty (albeit Mauler is situationally-hasty) beaters to push my opponent into burn-range. Ash Zealot is infinitely better than Lightning Mauler in just about every way. We can agree on that. Mauler, however, has the added bonus of bringing friends unexpectedly. Sometimes big friends, like Hellhole Flailer, a card I want to hype up but sadly don't know how I can without proving results.
As my only 3-drop creature, the Flailer is usually a 3-mana 4/3 that can't block. Coming in the turn after a Mauler is a 4-power hasted beater swinging in on the play before most decks have played a second creature. Flailer doubles up as a method of reach after swinging conventionally would just end in an Armada Wurm cockblocking your previously-threatening Ogre, by flinging itself straight to the dome for 3-4. This is the only card MD that requires black mana, actually. Fun Fact.
Topping off the curve is the obviously famous Hellrider. I don't feel like I need to explain this one in a Red Deck Primer.
Moving on, we have a little burn suite, in 4-of-each Pillar of Flame and Searing Spear. The first is great for clearing blockers, namely the recurring nightmares we'll see plenty of in the future, like Strangleroot Geist, Gravecrawler, Geralf's Messenger, and to a lesser extent Slitherheads (btw, I don't see these being as big of a deal as people are making them out to be). Searing Spear is just a bigger, instant-speed version, that is used on EoT a lot for some dome-damage. I can also threaten this card in my hand by swinging weak creatures into tough ones. Done this twice to Trostani, whose controller eventually stopped blocking with for fear of losing his stabilizer. Kind of just ended up with my going past it and doming them with burn for the win, but oh well.
Brimstone Volley is amazing in this type of deck. Its creatures fall off quickly past the 3rd-4th turn. So where the matches would eventually burn out, Volley can strike them anew in the form of 5 to the dome. This is another card that makes me enjoy playing Vexing Devil. The go-to response for so many players is just to take 4 from the Devil and scoff at me for having spent the mana. To which I can just follow with a Brimstone Volley. 9 Damage for 4 mana is a steal. I really like Vexing Devil...
IN THE SIDEBOARD, we finally see some more Black, in Dreadbore and Rakdos Charm, both costing BR. (BR? Gibe me mony pls)
Dreadbore is a catch-all removal that I bring in against midrange decks to clear fatties my burn can't get a hold of, and the simple answer to planeswalkers. Really a solid card, but just couldn't score a MD slot over the cards I'm using for over-the-head reach damage. The Charm is just amazing. It's incredible, really. Jarad can beef himself all he wants. All I have to do is drop a Rakdos Charm, flush their toilet, and wipe his stain off the bowl. It also works wonders against the new B/W tokens deck. Though I only got to play one set against it, I managed to use a charm both games for 5-6 damage. Charm doubles as you obligatory artifact-hate tech. Though I'm not positive how many artifacts will require the hate this format.
Joining the Rakdos-death-cacklingfirehate cards is a little dude of similar flavor: Forge Devil. I've seen this name come up a few times in the thread and let me tell you he has his uses. Sure, he's an absolute trash top-deck. But sideboarding to be on the draw against decks with mana dorks just calls his name. He can also enable Morbid alone for some Brimstone Volley action in a tight spot. I boarded him in against Zombies and Tokens as a two-for one almost all the time.
Finally we have Furor of the Bitten (another card I've seen the name of in previous posts) and Traitorous Blood. Furor may just place a big target on one of your creature's heads, but that's at least a target you can see and put where you want it. It makes Hellhole Flailer super strong (6/5 in a sligh deck? what da hell?), and allows Ash Zealot to get the jump on Restoration Angels, Loxodon Smiters, Dreg Manglers, etc. Just about every creature in the deck benefits from having a Wolf-bite, with the exception of maybe Lightning Mauler, but even then, at least he's not prone to X/1 removals. As mentioned before. In Block Constructed, slapping a furor onto Stromkirk Noble Turn 2 is a brutal start, and this is no exception. I board it in against other aggro decks, to keep up with their curve.
Traitorous Blood is to me a staple SB card in red. Act of Aggression is gone unfortunately, but this still helps. Feels good stealing Grisebrand. So good.
So that's that. If there are any questions concerning my choices in further detail, or questions regarding my choice of BR over MonoR, please ask. I'm incredibly devoted to Red, and anything that will contribute to my knowledge or the knowledge of others on the topic is awesome. Cheers.
Somebody give this guy a medal.
I may run this exact decklist because I like it so much, except for maybe add +1 swamp.
I think 0x Hellion Crucible is also the best choice if running Rakdos Aggro.
Also, is 2x Thunderbolt necessary? What about +1x VD and +1x BV?
Also, is 2x Thunderbolt necessary? What about +1x VD and +1x BV?
I only run two Thunderbolts because they can't clear blockers as well as Searing Spear. On the other hand, I run two more than zero because it's another reach spell, and answers EoT Restoration Angel with a big middle finger. I've thought about dropping them but right now I don't know what to replace them with. BV is a little mana intensive for 3, and only really worth casting with the mordbid trigger. Adding more would make me want to have morbid all the time, which can be detrimental to my strategy, since I'd be more focused on stuff on the board, and less on dropping my opponent's life ASAP.
Vexing Devil sits comfortably at 3 because I don't necessarily want him in my opening hand if I can help it. He isn't part of my initial curve, instead he helps make up the chunk of options I have after that curve has hit the board.
Do I put away the best Red card in standard, the card that can change a game and is the colour that I play because sometimes that will be a dead card in my open hand? Really?
When it'll be a dead or sub-par card significantly more than it'll be a good one? Yes. Absolutely.
Even using it to kill dorks like you suggested is pretty terrible - by the time you can Bonfire their (one or maybe two dorks) they've already done what they're in the deck to do - drop an efficient 3cc beater on the 2nd turn.
Concerning Vexing Devil: I'm not saying that it isn't good because it doesn't compare favorably to agressive one-drops from the past. I'm saying that it isn't good because it isn't good.
It's just not.
I said that when the card was spoiled and it's had nearly 5 months to prove me wrong. It hasn't yet. It's found niche play in one competitive deck (and only then because that deck plans on it always being 4 damage on the first turn) and its inclusion is still questionable there.
Of course all of this can be my crap thoughts, but I'm thinking in a competitive meta and not in a casual/FNM meta. This is like the discussion in Legacy about turn 3 kill. In a big tournament how many times did that happen? Very few and only against a limited types of decks.
There's a difference between planning for Magic Christmas Land hands like a turn 3 win and planning for the very real need to win before a certain point. RDW needs to win or be in a position to win by the 6th turn because our spells cannot compete with midrange or control's at that point. Putting a few late-game cards into your deck and sacrificing early consistency and speed for the off chance of being able to peel them turns 8+ does not make the deck more competetive. It does the opposite.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Stonewright is Insane. especially when paired with zealout
I have try test that. But I'm always very concern about creatures that soulbound with weak creatures. Many times I had attack with Silverblade Paladin in soulbond with another creature and then my opponent kill one of them and I lose both because the ability is no longer active. This to say that if your opponent kills the Stonewright it can be problematic because you lose the ability to pump Ash Zealot and maybe you will lose it in combat. The only creature that I see having much success with soulbond is Wolfir Silverheart because it makes your creatures huge.
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When it'll be a dead or sub-par card significantly more than it'll be a good one? Yes. Absolutely.
Even using it to kill dorks like you suggested is pretty terrible - by the time you can Bonfire their (one or maybe two dorks) they've already done what they're in the deck to do - drop an efficient 3cc beater on the 2nd turn.
Concerning Vexing Devil: I'm not saying that it isn't good because it doesn't compare favorably to agressive one-drops from the past. I'm saying that it isn't good because it isn't good.
It's just not.
I said that when the card was spoiled and it's had nearly 5 months to prove me wrong. It hasn't yet. It's found niche play in one competitive deck (and only then because that deck plans on it always being 4 damage on the first turn) and its inclusion is still questionable there.
Solid explanation. And I'm assuming Volley > Flames because of the synergy with Devil, and you can't really run both efficiently with Flailer.
Also, you don't use Stonewright. Personally, I don't like him but why isn't he in your list? A lot of people run him.
So, it's bad turn three when you drop it with Lightning Mauler? Or hit them with four damage for one mana?
It's bad because he don't like it,
I think now with more turn one creatures than Stromkirk noble it can work. The big problem last year it's that season we have only one curve. Turn one S. Kirk, turn two S. Beserker (sometimes Arc Trail to clean the table and many people like the shrine here), turn 3 Chandra (Sometimes Volt Charge to proliferate). Now we don't have that strong line, we will have more turn options and we can play in turn 2 Ash Zealot or two creatures one drop zombies style (that in past was difficult), and the turn 3 can be to burn or not...
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Stonewright is good for the following reasons:
-he has pseudo haste in that he can bond with a creature that can attack
-his ability can force opponents to not block for fear of loosing a creature
-his ability can also force opponents to block unfavorably for fear of taking too much damage
-his ability gives you use of mana if you can't or don't want to cast spells
That's a lot of utility for R. I may try to squeeze in a third.
So, it's bad turn three when you drop it with Lightning Mauler? Or hit them with four damage for one mana?
First off, if you have to invent narrow scenarios for a card to be good, then it's probably not good.
Second, in that narrow scenario, would any other one drop creature in the list be significantly worse? If your opponent takes 4, then you're stuck with an unhasty Lightning Mauler - any other one drop would, at least, insure that he had haste.
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I'm trying to keep up with the discussions here, but I don't actually have a list mocked up (and won't until at least a week after the release). As a result, some of the posts I'm replying to go back a few pages, so bare with me.
A couple of things:
2. Vexing Devil is hot garbage in anything but BURN! - that isn't even theory at this point. It's been tested for months. It's not good here.
3. Thunderous Wrath is great if you top deck it, but worthless in your opening hand - since RDW usually wins in 6 turns or less, that means you will have 5 chances for it to be great (when you draw and have R) in an average game, but 7-8 chances for it to be useless (7 card opening hand + your first draw if you're on the draw). It will be useless more often than it will be great.
I think these are excellently concise points on two controversial cards. That may be my favorite argument against wrath ever.
I was doubtful on stonewright as well, but he has consistently exceeded my expectations. I am going to have a 4th main or in the board, depending how the meta shakes out - he is amazing against the GW decks and the Ux control decks - against GW because he lets your crappy guys trade up for their good ones (negating their acceleration advantage and stranding their support cards) and againt Ux control because he is basically "R: x/1 haste, where x = number of mountains you control -1". If they cannot kill him immediately, I have dealt 10 damage in two turns just off the firebreathing. I am a big fan, but if GTC brings something better, I will reconsider my position.
Basically, my wishlist is a better 2 drop and 1-2 better burn spells, and some sideboard cards.
OK, I'm willing to meet you halfway on stonewright and give him a shot. It should be noted that I have reservations about him though. On turns where you can do other things and you pump him, if he gets snuffed you are down on tempo. By contrast if you just make your other plays, then he's just a 1/1 dork. And he sucks as a topdeck.
Your analysis is most likely completely wrong. I don't know how else to state this fact. He does in fact die to literally every removal in standard, He doesn't impact the board as much your making it out to be unless your reaching turn 5-7 clogged board and youve somehow hit land drops every turn then how would bonfire not be a better topdeck?, He himself can never swing he is only good at defense, Yes he is inherently better then stromkirk or cackler off the top late game but if thats all your using it for why not just run bonfire it does exactly the same thing and is much more versatile then stonewright and makes your stromkirks/cacklers better cards themselves. I am lost as to where this is going, and why are you searching out more and more creatures to run when you can tell midrange/control is going to be a thing verse seeking out more interactive cards?
Explain how stonewright is in fact impacting the board more then a bonfire, when is the ideal turn to play him verse aggro/midrange/and control?, when do you wish to topdeck him in each of those matchups?, how much mana do you really need for him to be a good card?, and is he not simply put a 1 trick pony he gets one useful swing in that might make a big difference in the game but then they know to leave something or more back or does your opponent just always race you? Are you really trying to compare him to the abyss because i just can't see it.
While I have reservations about stonewright as well, I don't think the comparison between it an bonfire is close to accurate. That is an apples to oranges sort of thing. And zemanjaski's right, you want 24ish lands for bonfire to be very good. Before that, I'd rather take my chances with mizzium mortars and at least consistently have a removal spell.
Although this gets discussed for a few pages after that post, where is the defensiveness and hostility coming from? You're coming off a bit harsh and I'm not sure why.
Good to hear you're passionate. That is what I like about red mages - we get involved and we mean it!
Although this isn't directed at me, I suppose it's worth mentioning that I'm really more of blue mage, who likes to occasionally play red decks. I'm sticking with it because it is fun discussing this stuff with you and the other people in these threads :).
Nothing better than a good counterspell though. Don't kick me out!!!
I do like how you worked in the flames of the firebrand - it might be that they're better than thunderbolt (more efficient going to the face, less efficient/able to kill creatures). We're going to have to do a lot of work to figure out which burn spells we want (it will mostly depend on what else is popular).
I want to test dangerous wager again - I may have been too quick to judge it initially.
I really think this should be a major thrust of the thread going forward. What burn, what function, and how much in contrast to the creatures being run.
I suspect that running more burn (a stretch, I know) in place of the less impressive creatures that are being considered may be the initial direction I go with.
So, it's bad turn three when you drop it with Lightning Mauler? Or hit them with four damage for one mana?
Again VEXING DEVIL IS ONLY GOOD IN BURN. The problem with your last statement is that vexy is neither of those options when you need them. Hence go with stonewright, you can capitalize on his strengths at least some of the time.
BTW, what happened to the U/R lists bandied around early in the thread; I still think they deserve some consideration.
I think people should agree to not talk about vexing devil. It's a very polarizing card and it looks like people keep going in circles with the argument.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
So, are we shooting for a Rakdos based deck or purely red?
Any speculation as to which is better?
Also, I feel like Dangerous Wager > Lightning bolt. I feel like LB should be SB for Resto Angels, DW if you're playing Rakdos, and WG if you're straight up red?
When it'll be a dead or sub-par card significantly more than it'll be a good one? Yes. Absolutely.
Even using it to kill dorks like you suggested is pretty terrible - by the time you can Bonfire their (one or maybe two dorks) they've already done what they're in the deck to do - drop an efficient 3cc beater on the 2nd turn.
There's a difference between planning for Magic Christmas Land hands like a turn 3 win and planning for the very real need to win before a certain point. RDW needs to win or be in a position to win by the 6th turn because our spells cannot compete with midrange or control's at that point. Putting a few late-game cards into your deck and sacrificing early consistency and speed for the off chance of being able to peel them turns 8+ does not make the deck more competetive. It does the opposite.
I never see a Bonfire like a dead card, maybe you can said like a slow card if not miracle.
I'm putting late game in my deck? Where? Because 2 Bonfire, 2 Hellrider and 2 Guttersnipe (that it will be test)? Really? The way to make it work and be consistent is with fast sub par creatures? The creatures with Unleashed that the people talk to turn 2 or the Stonewrigth all are kill by the dead card Bonfire, blocked by creatures with undying and be kill and don't return, or even by a smaller dork?
Maybe is better people see last season RDW base - David Caplan deck that finishing in 3th at Worlds 2011. Do you see there any sub par card? All the cards are plenty of value for the game plan, even the Goblin Fireslinger triggers the Bloodthirst of S. Berserker. Your deck will not consistent only because your creatures are fast, because if this is true the goblins deck last season have to be tier 1, and it's not true...
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I think people should agree to not talk about vexing devil. It's a very polarizing card and it looks like people keep going in circles with the argument.
I think this is a great place to discuss it. The reason why I think it keeps coming up is that it is a fun card. Honestly, with any amount of burn, if you drop three of them in the early game, you're bound to be in a good position. Add to that the fact that he is good in burn lists.
Where the problem comes in is that many people don't seem to get the idea that he isn't good in every red list. Even if both of the options he presents are good, the fact that your opponent gets to make the call as to which option you get is far too painful an amount of variance for most decks.
Think about it this way--if you need to build board presence, he's damage.
If you need damage, he's a creature. If you could take either, then you are already winning. He makes a difference when you can capitalize on an opponent's low life total directly and consistently--i.e. when you have burn.
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So, are we shooting for a Rakdos based deck or purely red?
Any speculation as to which is better?
Also, I feel like Dangerous Wager > Lightning bolt. I feel like LB should be SB for Resto Angels, DW if you're playing Rakdos, and WG if you're straight up red?
No idea which is better. I've been running rakdos all day and losing all my matches, though that's mostly due to misplays >_> I will say my first three opponents where bant decks. Thragtusk, resto angel, centaur healer, and jace are a beating.
I might try out small red later today. Also, you're thinking of thunderbolt.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Bonfire is bad in aggro.
I'm of the opinion that neither Vexing Devil nor Nivmagus Elemental belong either, but they are (at least) aggressively costed, so they're not usually straight up dead cards like Bonfire is.
Using fetch lands for "deck thinning" is not a good enough reason to run them. The probability increase of drawing more threats is statistically negligible over the course of an average game. Over the course of an average aggro deck's game it's absolutely laughable.
Exchanging the deck's very real consistency and speed for trivial gains is not a good trade.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
Decklist:
4x Stromkirk Noble
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Pillar of Flame
3x Rakdos Shred-Freak
3x Gore-House Chainwalker
4x Searing Spear
2x Flames of the Firebrand
2x Hellrider
20x Mountain
2x Hellion Crucible
Hmmm. I'll take a shot at it. I'm actually an Izzet enthusiast, but since we don't have Grimoire Thief, Goblin Guide or Kargan Dragonlord, I'll put a Rakdos spin on it:
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Swamp
12 Mountain
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Ash Zealot
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
3 Hellhole Flailer
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Dreadbore
3 Searing Spear
3 Brimstone Volley
This is theoretical; I love this model for red decks, though. Lets me combine some good weenies with higher-end stuff like Thundermaw (or the in case of my Legacy casual Izzet deck, Niv-Mizzet).
Here's the gist of my arguement:
1. RDW's average winning game will last 6 turns or less.
2. With 22 land, you will statistically have 4 in play by turn 6.
-Considering points 1 and 2, on average, a Bonfire played from the hand will have X = 1 - and Bonfire for 1, generally speaking, sucks.
-Considering points 1 and 2, you will have 4 chances in the average game to Miracle Bonfire (turns 3-6), but 8-9 chances to draw it and not.
That means Bonfire is twice as likely to suck in an average game as it is to be playable. Not good (I don't consider Bonfire for 1, even miracled, to be good), but just playable.
As an aside, if you don't think this deck needs to win in the first 6 turns, then I don't know what to tell you. RDW's late game has always been lacking.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
This really excites me. I may not have played myself during this format, but everything I've read/heard/seen of it is that is was incredibly fast (thanks to the Lorwyn Block) and unforgiving. Falling a turn behind usually cost the game. So seeing that an aggro Red deck won such a large event running 4 of a 5cmc creature makes me really rethink what's possible this season. ThunderMaw Hellkite is often compared to Demigod of Revenge anyway, so maybe there is a way to mirror this deck's playstyle with the current T2 cardpool. I'll take a shot at it. Love me some brews.
Thanks! I'm happy to add and trim on some lists to find the perfect medium with you. I don't want to diss MonoR, since I am very into it (playgroup picks on me for never playing other colors outside of splashes), but R/B just looks more capable right now.
CMy Peasant CubeC
On Cubetutor
RDW late has always been lacking, I agree but midrange game can not be that way. I play Mono-red in legacy, modern and standard. Last season play with Goblins and RDW for months and I'm not look for Mono-red like you do for sure. If you go to a full overextended strategic you will not have success at long time.
The meta is full of decks with fast and small creatures or "dorks" that give mana that usual were kill for a bonfire at 1 or 2. It can give me really advantage in the game and let me extended my game without use many resources.
In one qualifier for a SCG I had a game that I lock my opponent with a Liliana of the veil, a Sorin and a Gideon Jura and I lose to a Miracle Bonfire for 7 or 8!
Do I put away the best Red card in standard, the card that can change a game and is the colour that I play because sometimes that will be a dead card in my open hand? Really?
You don't like Vexing Devil and Nivmagus Elemental? Ok any one make their choices.
People will prefer to use sub par creatures only because they cost few mana? Do the new radkos creature that become 3/2 (with unlashed) for 2 mana be compare to the Stromblood Beserker? 3 power at 3 turn, one with another ability that make him very evasive because can only be block for 2 or more creatures and one simple 3/2 that can never block? Comparable? No!
We have to use our good cards and not the cards that have a little cost and are sub par. Vexing for example can be a nice turn 3 or 4 drop that let us to have mana open to use in instants if we need. a 4/3 for 1 mana? Really bad? Only if you put it on first turn! Our opponent will pay for life and we will not have any threat in the board. Nivamagus is one creature that I want to try, because it seems to me that he can survive easily a Bonfire, with the exile of an Instant. It will grow and probably crush the strategy of our opponent.
Of course all of this can be my crap thoughts, but I'm thinking in a competitive meta and not in a casual/FNM meta. This is like the discussion in Legacy about turn 3 kill. In a big tournament how many times did that happen? Very few and only against a limited types of decks.
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
Stonewright seems like a wasted mana-sink since the game SHOULD only last 6-8 turns maximum.
Somebody give this guy a medal.
I may run this exact decklist because I like it so much, except for maybe add +1 swamp.
I think 0x Hellion Crucible is also the best choice if running Rakdos Aggro.
Also, is 2x Thunderbolt necessary? What about +1x VD and +1x BV?
I only run two Thunderbolts because they can't clear blockers as well as Searing Spear. On the other hand, I run two more than zero because it's another reach spell, and answers EoT Restoration Angel with a big middle finger. I've thought about dropping them but right now I don't know what to replace them with. BV is a little mana intensive for 3, and only really worth casting with the mordbid trigger. Adding more would make me want to have morbid all the time, which can be detrimental to my strategy, since I'd be more focused on stuff on the board, and less on dropping my opponent's life ASAP.
Vexing Devil sits comfortably at 3 because I don't necessarily want him in my opening hand if I can help it. He isn't part of my initial curve, instead he helps make up the chunk of options I have after that curve has hit the board.
CMy Peasant CubeC
On Cubetutor
When it'll be a dead or sub-par card significantly more than it'll be a good one? Yes. Absolutely.
Even using it to kill dorks like you suggested is pretty terrible - by the time you can Bonfire their (one or maybe two dorks) they've already done what they're in the deck to do - drop an efficient 3cc beater on the 2nd turn.
Concerning Vexing Devil: I'm not saying that it isn't good because it doesn't compare favorably to agressive one-drops from the past. I'm saying that it isn't good because it isn't good.
It's just not.
I said that when the card was spoiled and it's had nearly 5 months to prove me wrong. It hasn't yet. It's found niche play in one competitive deck (and only then because that deck plans on it always being 4 damage on the first turn) and its inclusion is still questionable there.
There's a difference between planning for Magic Christmas Land hands like a turn 3 win and planning for the very real need to win before a certain point. RDW needs to win or be in a position to win by the 6th turn because our spells cannot compete with midrange or control's at that point. Putting a few late-game cards into your deck and sacrificing early consistency and speed for the off chance of being able to peel them turns 8+ does not make the deck more competetive. It does the opposite.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
VEXING DEVIL is NOT a turn one play.
I didn't say it was. I said it was a one drop.
I'm not arguing that Vexing Devil is a bad turn one play - I'm arguing that it's a bad card.
It's bad turn one.
It's bad turn two.
It's bad turn three.
etc.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I have try test that. But I'm always very concern about creatures that soulbound with weak creatures. Many times I had attack with Silverblade Paladin in soulbond with another creature and then my opponent kill one of them and I lose both because the ability is no longer active. This to say that if your opponent kills the Stonewright it can be problematic because you lose the ability to pump Ash Zealot and maybe you will lose it in combat. The only creature that I see having much success with soulbond is Wolfir Silverheart because it makes your creatures huge.
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
Solid explanation. And I'm assuming Volley > Flames because of the synergy with Devil, and you can't really run both efficiently with Flailer.
Also, you don't use Stonewright. Personally, I don't like him but why isn't he in your list? A lot of people run him.
Just curious. You seem pretty well-informed.
So, it's bad turn three when you drop it with Lightning Mauler? Or hit them with four damage for one mana?
It's bad because he don't like it,
I think now with more turn one creatures than Stromkirk noble it can work. The big problem last year it's that season we have only one curve. Turn one S. Kirk, turn two S. Beserker (sometimes Arc Trail to clean the table and many people like the shrine here), turn 3 Chandra (Sometimes Volt Charge to proliferate). Now we don't have that strong line, we will have more turn options and we can play in turn 2 Ash Zealot or two creatures one drop zombies style (that in past was difficult), and the turn 3 can be to burn or not...
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
You must be refering to the Rakdos list I posted - that was just for fun. The actual list I plan on using is:
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Rakdos Cackler
2 Stonewright
4 Ash Zealot
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Hellrider
4 Pillar of Flame
4 Searing Spear
4 Thunderbolt
4 Brimstone Volley
20 Mountain
2 Hellion Crucible
Stonewright is good for the following reasons:
-he has pseudo haste in that he can bond with a creature that can attack
-his ability can force opponents to not block for fear of loosing a creature
-his ability can also force opponents to block unfavorably for fear of taking too much damage
-his ability gives you use of mana if you can't or don't want to cast spells
That's a lot of utility for R. I may try to squeeze in a third.
First off, if you have to invent narrow scenarios for a card to be good, then it's probably not good.
Second, in that narrow scenario, would any other one drop creature in the list be significantly worse? If your opponent takes 4, then you're stuck with an unhasty Lightning Mauler - any other one drop would, at least, insure that he had haste.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
I think these are excellently concise points on two controversial cards. That may be my favorite argument against wrath ever.
OK, I'm willing to meet you halfway on stonewright and give him a shot. It should be noted that I have reservations about him though. On turns where you can do other things and you pump him, if he gets snuffed you are down on tempo. By contrast if you just make your other plays, then he's just a 1/1 dork. And he sucks as a topdeck.
While I have reservations about stonewright as well, I don't think the comparison between it an bonfire is close to accurate. That is an apples to oranges sort of thing. And zemanjaski's right, you want 24ish lands for bonfire to be very good. Before that, I'd rather take my chances with mizzium mortars and at least consistently have a removal spell.
Although this gets discussed for a few pages after that post, where is the defensiveness and hostility coming from? You're coming off a bit harsh and I'm not sure why.
Although this isn't directed at me, I suppose it's worth mentioning that I'm really more of blue mage, who likes to occasionally play red decks. I'm sticking with it because it is fun discussing this stuff with you and the other people in these threads :).
Nothing better than a good counterspell though. Don't kick me out!!!
I really think this should be a major thrust of the thread going forward. What burn, what function, and how much in contrast to the creatures being run.
I suspect that running more burn (a stretch, I know) in place of the less impressive creatures that are being considered may be the initial direction I go with.
Again VEXING DEVIL IS ONLY GOOD IN BURN. The problem with your last statement is that vexy is neither of those options when you need them. Hence go with stonewright, you can capitalize on his strengths at least some of the time.
BTW, what happened to the U/R lists bandied around early in the thread; I still think they deserve some consideration.
Any speculation as to which is better?
Also, I feel like Dangerous Wager > Lightning bolt. I feel like LB should be SB for Resto Angels, DW if you're playing Rakdos, and WG if you're straight up red?
I never see a Bonfire like a dead card, maybe you can said like a slow card if not miracle.
I'm putting late game in my deck? Where? Because 2 Bonfire, 2 Hellrider and 2 Guttersnipe (that it will be test)? Really? The way to make it work and be consistent is with fast sub par creatures? The creatures with Unleashed that the people talk to turn 2 or the Stonewrigth all are kill by the dead card Bonfire, blocked by creatures with undying and be kill and don't return, or even by a smaller dork?
Maybe is better people see last season RDW base - David Caplan deck that finishing in 3th at Worlds 2011. Do you see there any sub par card? All the cards are plenty of value for the game plan, even the Goblin Fireslinger triggers the Bloodthirst of S. Berserker. Your deck will not consistent only because your creatures are fast, because if this is true the goblins deck last season have to be tier 1, and it's not true...
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
I think this is a great place to discuss it. The reason why I think it keeps coming up is that it is a fun card. Honestly, with any amount of burn, if you drop three of them in the early game, you're bound to be in a good position. Add to that the fact that he is good in burn lists.
Where the problem comes in is that many people don't seem to get the idea that he isn't good in every red list. Even if both of the options he presents are good, the fact that your opponent gets to make the call as to which option you get is far too painful an amount of variance for most decks.
Think about it this way--if you need to build board presence, he's damage.
If you need damage, he's a creature. If you could take either, then you are already winning. He makes a difference when you can capitalize on an opponent's low life total directly and consistently--i.e. when you have burn.
No idea which is better. I've been running rakdos all day and losing all my matches, though that's mostly due to misplays >_> I will say my first three opponents where bant decks. Thragtusk, resto angel, centaur healer, and jace are a beating.
I might try out small red later today. Also, you're thinking of thunderbolt.