[Primer] Aggro Red Deck Variants

  • #1
    Legit question: would you consider counterburn a RDW variant, or its own archtype?
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?

    When Aegis Angel is born?
    When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
    When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
    When Faerie Imposter busts in?
    When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
    When Malfegor shows up?
  • #2
    Very legic question. I consider it its own archetype - most decks I have seen just play too differently and have too many different angles of attack to be a real red deck. Both deck types can legitimately learn from each other though.

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  • #3
    I would also consider it to be its own Architype as counter/burn is made for longer games and is really very much like a control but instead of a big creature its just a slow burn.


    but nice primer. I am so glad to see RDW back on the map. Smile
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  • #4
    Contributing the decklist I'm working on.

    SlighMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Land: 22
    20 Mountain
    2 Hellion Crucible

    Creatures: 24
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    4 Stromkirk Noble
    4 Ash Zealot
    4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
    4 Gore-House Chainwalker
    4 Hellrider

    Spells: 14
    4 Pillar of Flame
    4 Brimstone Volley
    4 Searing Spear
    2 Annihilating Fire



    My mind is still not made up with Rakdos Shred-Freak, as I'm considering Mogg Flunkies or Lightning Mauler in his place. If ever the Mauler makes the cut, I'd probably use a 3-drop. Mogg Flunkies being more useful with haste creatures is also something to consider. Very weak to removal though.

    Red is kind of weak in the 3-drop slot with the loss of Chandra's Phoenix. I prefer my 3-drops to have haste, and the only choices are Erdwal Ripper, Fervent Cathar, and Reckless Brute, all of which are pretty mediocre. Kruin Outlaw seems interesting, but Splatter Thug fits the Sligh theme more, IMO.

    Annihilating Fire can be replaced with Wild Guess.
    Last edited by DeluxeTea: 9/24/2012 10:04:12 PM

    Also, Sigarda is a hooker. One you don't know is a hooker. Until she demands payment and her pimp beats the $hit out of you.
  • #5
    Quote from zemanjaski
    Very legic question. I consider it its own archetype - most decks I have seen just play too differently and have too many different angles of attack to be a real red deck. Both deck types can legitimately learn from each other though.


    I'll probably be posting a primer on it at some point, in the mean time I can say this:
    Guttersnipe is the best card ever printed (given a critical mass of instants and sorceries)

    I could see izzet goblins being a thing. Krenko's command, the sniper and electromancer, Goblin rally, and the commander (krenko) himself make for a reasonable base. Toss in electrickery and mizzium mortars and you get a resilient aggro deck that can make use of some trickery like the charm, but still plays like true aggro.
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?

    When Aegis Angel is born?
    When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
    When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
    When Faerie Imposter busts in?
    When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
    When Malfegor shows up?
  • #6
    Quote from DeluxeTea
    Contributing the decklist I'm working on.

    SlighMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Land: 22
    20 Mountain
    2 Hellion Crucible

    Creatures: 24
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    4 Stromkirk Noble
    4 Ash Zealot
    4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
    4 Gore-House Chainwalker
    4 Hellrider

    Spells: 14
    4 Pillar of Flame
    4 Brimstone Volley
    4 Searing Spear
    2 Annihilating Fire



    My mind is still not made up with Rakdos Shred-Freak, as I'm considering Mogg Flunkies or Lightning Mauler in his place. If ever the Mauler makes the cut, I'd probably use a 3-drop. Mogg Flunkies being more useful with haste creatures is also something to consider. Very weak to removal though.

    Red is kind of weak in the 3-drop slot with the loss of Chandra's Phoenix. I prefer my 3-drops to have haste, and the only choices are Erdwal Ripper, Fervent Cathar, and Reckless Brute, all of which are pretty mediocre. Kruin Outlaw seems interesting, but Splatter Thug fits the Sligh theme more, IMO.

    Annihilating Fire can be replaced with Wild Guess.


    Hi! Welcome to the thread. I really like your decklist (it is very similar to my deck, just a little bigger).

    I have found the Gore-House Chainwalker to be the best 2-drop after Ash Zealot, but I appreciate they all have something going for them. It may be that we have to wait and see what the metagame looks like before deciding? If the meta is friendly to x/1s, then Shred Freak or Lightning Mauler look a lot better. Otherwise, I think Chainwalker is more playable. I don't like the Flunkies drawback, though I do not doubt it is largely mitigated when you're running 10+ haste creatures.

    We're very weak at 3. I can see running burn at that point in the curve (Arc Lightning and Brimstone Volley basically). I think this is just a fact we're going to have to content ourselves with until GTC/Sinker and the release of Boros and Gruul - Im sure there is something there we can take and use.

    Welcome to the thread, thanks for the contribution! Do please let us know how your testing goes.

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  • #7
    Quote from Glimyrpost
    I'll probably be posting a primer on it at some point, in the mean time I can say this:
    Guttersnipe is the best card ever printed (given a critical mass of instants and sorceries)

    I could see izzet goblins being a thing. Krenko's command, the sniper and electromancer, Goblin rally, and the commander (krenko) himself make for a reasonable base. Toss in electrickery and mizzium mortars and you get a resilient aggro deck that can make use of some trickery like the charm, but still plays like true aggro.


    That definitely sounds cool. I havent really given it much thought, but maybe there is someway to make use of Battlehymn and that new goblin token spell (it makes 4 tokens I think)? With all the discounts you're getting, you can make a LOT of mana - epic experiment / devil's play / burn at the stake to finish?! Grin

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  • #8
    Quote from zemanjaski
    That definitely sounds cool. I havent really given it much thought, but maybe there is someway to make use of Battlehymn and that new goblin token spell (it makes 4 tokens I think)? With all the discounts you're getting, you can make a LOT of mana - epic experiment / devil's play / burn at the stake to finish?! Grin


    Goblins at the stake reborn 2.0?

    I was simply thinking of playing it out as aggro/tokens with lategame reach through the sniper, but a combocentric build always excites me :p

    @ the above post: do you think that the chainwaker is good enough? He seems rather weak, but then i'm probably underestimating a 3/2 for 2
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?

    When Aegis Angel is born?
    When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
    When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
    When Faerie Imposter busts in?
    When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
    When Malfegor shows up?
  • #9
    This is our Izzet aggro deck.


    CorpT's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    ZZET AGGRO
    Creatures x15
    4x Delver of Secrets
    4x Goblin Electromancer
    4x Snapcaster Mage
    3x Guttersnipe

    Instants x8
    2x Syncopate
    4x Desperate Ravings
    2x Cyclonic Rift

    Sorceries x14
    4x Pillar of Flame
    3x Bonfire of the Damned
    4x Mizzium Mortars
    3x Talrand’s Invocation

    Lands x23
    4x Steam Vents
    4x Sulfur Falls
    2x Desolate Lighthouse
    7x Island
    6x Mountain



    Pretty sure we stole it from somewhere, but it tested well. I wouldn't try to get cute with it.
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    Quote from pierrebai
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  • #10
    Quote from Glimyrpost
    Goblins at the stake reborn 2.0?

    I was simply thinking of playing it out as aggro/tokens with lategame reach through the sniper, but a combocentric build always excites me :p

    @ the above post: do you think that the chainwaker is good enough? He seems rather weak, but then i'm probably underestimating a 3/2 for 2


    I love me a goblins deck. I love me a combo deck. The combination is too much to resist...

    Chainwalker is the weakest card in the deck. It is the first card I want to upgrade when Gatecrash is release. At the same time, I believe it to be the best 2 drop available, at the moment.

    @ CorpT - that does look very cool indeed. How did it normally play out? Was it more aggro straight aggro or more midrange? It looks like the Delvers would be pretty good and I am sure the electromancers did a lot of work as well. Oh - is Staticaster just insane against some decks? It looks very good.

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  • #11
    Looks fairly (not yet) standard. Only change I'd consider is talrand's invocations out for electrickery, but I'd assume that would be a meta call based on aggro expectations. (I also really like trickery as a card).
    Why no izzet charm? (missed them in the side) That seems like it would want to be in the deck, 2 possibly in place of 2 mizzium mortars.

    Other than switching some electrickery with invocations, that 75 looks almost exactly what I'd play, just different cards main/side.


    "Goblins at the stake reborn 2.0"...this is what I get for posting late at night.
    Last edited by Glimyrpost: 9/24/2012 10:29:20 PM
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?

    When Aegis Angel is born?
    When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
    When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
    When Faerie Imposter busts in?
    When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
    When Malfegor shows up?
  • #12
    Quote from zemanjaski
    @ CorpT - that does look very cool indeed. How did it normally play out? Was it more aggro straight aggro or more midrange? It looks like the Delvers would be pretty good and I am sure the electromancers did a lot of work as well. Oh - is Staticaster just insane against some decks? It looks very good.


    Almost like aggro/combo. If you assemble Snipe, Electromancer and a Desperate Ravings, you can go to town. It spikes damage very hard with that online.
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  • #13
    I like that a lot. One of my favourite aspects of the 19 land+pike delver decks was that it is an aggro deck, with a combo element - sometimes you just play the pike and kill them out of nowhere - this looks pretty similar. Very cool. Will give it a spin for sure.

    I write for Channel Fireball now! Read my CFB articles here. Read my Dies to Removal articles here. Read the definitive Red Deck Wins Primer here.

    Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.

    Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
  • #14
    SlighMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Land: 22
    20 Mountain
    2 Hellion Crucible

    Creatures: 24
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    3 Stromkirk Noble
    4 Vexing Devil
    4 Ash Zealot
    3 Rakdos Shred-Freak
    3 Gore-House Chainwalker
    3 Hellrider

    Spells: 14
    4 Pillar of Flame
    2 Brimstone Volley
    4 Searing Spear
    4 thunderbolt



    This is my current workings. ITs very similar to a few others. My basic premis is that I really like Vexing Devil and I have 7 t2 plays that have haste so I don't loose board position and constant threats that much. Turn 3 I've usually spent laying down burn or double creatures.

    I'm considering trying to find room for Wild guess since its card advantage. I've also considered going Rakdos for Bump in the night. Still considering it though.
    JOIN THE MOTION! REVIVE EXTENDED FORMAT PLAY!


    Current Decks

    Standard
    RDW R

    Extended
    ELDRAZIWOLFRUN RG
    DEMONIC LANDFALL BG
    GOBLINS RU
    ELVESG

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    Storm UR
    Land Destruction RB
    Turbo Smog WR

  • #15
    Quote from Yorutenchi
    SlighMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Land: 22
    20 Mountain
    2 Hellion Crucible

    Creatures: 24
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    3 Stromkirk Noble
    4 Vexing Devil
    4 Ash Zealot
    3 Rakdos Shred-Freak
    3 Gore-House Chainwalker
    3 Hellrider

    Spells: 14
    4 Pillar of Flame
    2 Brimstone Volley
    4 Searing Spear
    4 thunderbolt



    This is my current workings. ITs very similar to a few others. My basic premis is that I really like Vexing Devil and I have 7 t2 plays that have haste so I don't loose board position and constant threats that much. Turn 3 I've usually spent laying down burn or double creatures.

    I'm considering trying to find room for Wild guess since its card advantage. I've also considered going Rakdos for Bump in the night. Still considering it though.


    Looks really good! Let us know how it tests.

    Wild Guess isn't card advantage - it lets you filter but you never end up with more cards. You could try Dangerous Wager which is sometimes card advantage (but in my opinion is not as good). I havent been convinced by any of the Rakdos brews yet, mostly because I think if you're going heavy black that you are better off playing with a lot of zombies and only a little red instead.

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  • #16
    For reference, the counterburn deck I'm testing that looks reasonably similar to the aggro deck, mine is just slower and controlly-er
    izzet counterburnMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    creatures
    3 Guttersnipe
    3 Goblin Electromancer
    2 Talrand, Sky Summoner
    2 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius

    instants
    4 Think Twice
    4 Desperate Ravings
    4 Counterflux
    2 Dissipate
    2 Electrickery
    2 Blustersquall
    4 Izzet Charm

    sorceries
    2 Bonfire of the Damned
    2 Mizzium Mortars

    land
    4 Izzet Guildgate
    4 Sulfur Falls
    4 Steam Vents
    2 Hinterland Harbor
    4 Island
    4 Mountain
    2 Desolate Lighthouse


    Talrand was weak, and niv obviously wouldn't fit in a much faster deck, but outside of that, the deck performs reasonably well. It needs to be a little faster, but gutternsipe+electromancer+think twice is painful to play, its just so much value. The same is true for sniper/mancer/ravings.
    Tangentially, I'm campaigning for guttersnipe's official nickname to be the sniper.
    Quote from Ninja Caterpie
    I guess OP wants it to be 'keyworded' like "dies" was. What word would you replace ETB with though?

    When Aegis Angel is born?
    When Huntmaster of the Fells arrives?
    When Kitchen Sphinx lands?
    When Faerie Imposter busts in?
    When Dread Cacodemon pops in?
    When Malfegor shows up?
  • #17
    Quote from Glimyrpost »
    Tangentially, I'm campaigning for guttersnipe's official nickname to be the sniper.
    Ill pay it.

    I write for Channel Fireball now! Read my CFB articles here. Read my Dies to Removal articles here. Read the definitive Red Deck Wins Primer here.

    Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.

    Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
  • #18
    Quote from zemanjaski
    Looks really good! Let us know how it tests.

    Wild Guess isn't card advantage - it lets you filter but you never end up with more cards. You could try Dangerous Wager which is sometimes card advantage (but in my opinion is not as good). I havent been convinced by any of the Rakdos brews yet, mostly because I think if you're going heavy black that you are better off playing with a lot of zombies and only a little red instead.


    So far I've only been able to test it out against existing decks. The meta is about to morph into something very unique without the backbone of Scars block and now its been pulunged into the weird world of innistrad/ravnica (which I am giddy with anticipation)

    Neither are "normal" MTG by flavor or function. It reminds me of timespiral and shadowmore on how strange the cards are. I love this unique feel so I won't even guess a good decklist to test it out. But this is the build I've already pre-ordered card from and will be taken to my first weekly pre-con at my local store.

    I am falling back on RDW for two reasons.

    1) it feels safest as it doesn't have a disadvantage against anything except those pesky g/w lifegain decks which I (as a meta call and I may be very wrong) don't think will be prevelant.

    2) I love RDW and haven't been able to play it in standard in months.


    but so far against zombies it does about 50/50. Its less explosvie but more consistant. If you remove the Blood artist I would say it shifts to us for about a 60/40 ratio. Basically we have haste and thier stuff comes into play tapped.

    against curret rites decks....80/20 on favor to this deck. Its to fast and the most popular fetch is Griselbrand which is the worst possible thing for them to search for.

    Delver its inconclusive.

    and those are the only decks I"ve really tested against. But this is very new and only been proxied up for about 3-4 days.
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  • #19
    That Izzet aggro list CorpT posted looks really cool. Would definitely like to try that out.
    ~Standard~
    BRZombiesRB

    **EDH**
    RBWort, Boggart AuntieBR
  • #20
    So, my first deck:

    Zemanjaski's First TryMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Ash Zealot
    4 Gore-House Chainwalker
    2 Hell Rider
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    3 Stonewright
    4 Stromkirk Noble

    3 Brimstone Volley
    4 Pillar of Flame
    4 Searing Spear
    4 Thunderbolt
    2 Wild Guess

    3 Hellion Crucible
    19 Mountain


    Some notes:
    -Stonewright, Hellion Crucible and Wild Guess as ways to get through flood / scale into the lategame. Stonewright and the Crucibles have been particularly impressive. Wild Guess is OK - I tried Faithless Looting a lot before rotation - it was amazing with Grim Lavamancer but I have much less incentive to run it now.
    -The manabase is OK. I could probably get by on 21 land, but the extra just gives me a little more reliability. I am at the point where I just want to play my cards and not have my deck beat me itself :p
    -the curve feels really good. Turn 3 is often brimstone volley OR another 2 drop OR put a counter on hellion crucible, so it plays better than it looks.
    - the burn package has been very solid so far. Sideboard choice shore up what could be weaknesses.
    -hellrider is an absurd card.

    The sideboard is pretty general and will undergo a lot of work once the meta settles a little more. Obviously some cards for zombies. Nothing for control, but I am not sure what I would want - we lost shrine, Koth and manabarbs, so there is no go to card (without splashing black).

    Frostburn weird are tech for the aggro mirror when you want to become the control deck - they block most creatures and trade favourably with everything from the zombie deck (obviously you do need to manage the messengers) allowing you to go big with sideboarded mizzium mortars and electrickery Grin

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  • #21
    Quote from zemanjaski
    So, my first deck:

    Zemanjaski's First TryMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Ash Zealot
    4 Gore-House Chainwalker
    2 Hell Rider
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    3 Stonewright
    4 Stromkirk Noble

    3 Brimstone Volley
    4 Pillar of Flame
    4 Searing Spear
    4 Thunderbolt
    2 Wild Guess

    3 Hellion Crucible
    19 Mountain


    Some notes:
    -Stonewright, Hellion Crucible and Wild Guess as ways to get through flood / scale into the lategame. Stonewright and the Crucibles have been particularly impressive. Wild Guess is OK - I tried Faithless Looting a lot before rotation - it was amazing with Grim Lavamancer but I have much less incentive to run it now.
    -The manabase is OK. I could probably get by on 21 land, but the extra just gives me a little more reliability. I am at the point where I just want to play my cards and not have my deck beat me itself :p
    -the curve feels really good. Turn 3 is often brimstone volley OR another 2 drop OR put a counter on hellion crucible, so it plays better than it looks.
    - the burn package has been very solid so far. Sideboard choice shore up what could be weaknesses.
    -hellrider is an absurd card.

    The sideboard is pretty general and will undergo a lot of work once the meta settles a little more. Obviously some cards for zombies. Nothing for control, but I am not sure what I would want - we lost shrine, Koth and manabarbs, so there is no go to card (without splashing black).

    Frostburn weird are tech for the aggro mirror when you want to become the control deck - they block most creatures and trade favourably with everything from the zombie deck (obviously you do need to manage the messengers) allowing you to go big with sideboarded mizzium mortars and electrickery Grin

    No vexing devil? I still can't for the life of me understand why people don't play him. If he is good enough to fit into legacy decks.....though I guess its not exactly teh same thing.

    I just know from my testing and experience I haven't regreted seeing a vexing devil unless ist turn 5+. but if it IS turn 5+ I can't really think of anything i WOULD want to see.
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    GOBLINS RU
    ELVESG

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    Storm UR
    Land Destruction RB
    Turbo Smog WR

  • #22
    Hooray for a new thread and standard season! Lovely primer Zem.

    I guess I´ll stand in defense of the Rakdos Sligh and/or Burn variant(s) as that is my pet brew. I believe that there is much merit in splashing black because of a number of cards:

    Dreadbore - can and most often will replace Searing Spear in Sligh as a MD card that saves sideboard space plus is an iron clad answer to the various fatties in GW and Naya builds that will be even more common (aswell as being a bonus vs control in answering PWs). Translation: Wolfir Silverheart.

    Hellhole Flailer - is the main reason for a black splash in Sligh. There´s a lack of good 3 drops and this guy also adds 'more value' in a way that is very rare in aggro creatures; the built in Burn is reach on the table.

    Rakdos Charm - this is a SB card, but a very good one. It eats graveyards (anti-Izzet, Golgari), it punishes token strategies (Selesnya) and saves a slot for the obligatory artifact answer.

    Slaughter Games - also a SB card, yet powerful. This is what neuters Thragtusk. Keep the manadorks off the board and this will go off before they can deploy it.

    Deathrite Shaman - is Grim Lavamancers big brother and a suprising ally from the Golgari camp. It´s basically 4 times as effective as ol' Grim with a better body. Even works in duplicates. This is the reason for splashing black in the Burn variant.

    That's the skeleton crew and there's more cards, but this is the skint of my reasoning.

    Example decks:

    "BR Sligh 1.0"Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures: (26)
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    4 Stromkirk Noble
    4 Vexing Devil
    4 Lightning Mauler
    4 Gore-House Chainwalker
    4 Hellhole Flailer
    2 Hell Rider

    Spells: (13)
    4 Pillar of Flame
    4 Electrickery
    3 Dreadbore
    3 Flames of the Firebrand

    Land: (21)
    4 Blood Crypt
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    11 Mountain
    2 Swamp


    VD may look misplaced, but Mauler turns it into a decent topdeck alongside Flailers suidice tendencies.

    "BR Burn 1.0"Magic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures: (12)
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    4 Vexing Devil
    4 Deathrite Shaman

    Spells: (27)
    4 Pillar of Flame
    4 Electrickery
    3 Thunderous Wrath
    2 Faithless Looting
    4 Searing Spear
    4 Thunderbolt
    2 Wild Guess
    4 Flames of the Firebrand

    Land: (21)
    4 Blood Crypt
    4 Dragonskull Summit
    10 Mountain
    2 Swamp
    1 Stensia Bloodhall


    I really like the Burn miracle while others don't. As Burn wants to filter more than Sligh I find the trade off acceptable. A related issue is the lack of decent Burn spells.
  • #23
    Quote from MattT



    Dreadbore - can and most often will replace Searing Spear in Sligh as a MD card that saves sideboard space plus is an iron clad answer to the various fatties in GW and Naya builds that will be even more common (aswell as being a bonus vs control in answering PWs). Translation: Wolfir Silverheart.

    Hellhole Flailer - is the main reason for a black splash in Sligh. There´s a lack of good 3 drops and this guy also adds 'more value' in a way that is very rare in aggro creatures; the built in Burn is reach on the table.

    Rakdos Charm - this is a SB card, but a very good one. It eats graveyards (anti-Izzet, Golgari), it punishes token strategies (Selesnya) and saves a slot for the obligatory artifact answer.

    Slaughter Games - also a SB card, yet powerful. This is what neuters Thragtusk. Keep the manadorks off the board and this will go off before they can deploy it.

    Deathrite Shaman - is Grim Lavamancers big brother and a suprising ally from the Golgari camp. It´s basically 4 times as effective as ol' Grim with a better body. Even works in duplicates. This is the reason for splashing black in the Burn variant.

    That's the skeleton crew and there's more cards, but this is the skint of my reasoning.

    In a rakdos build this is a very good analysis and I think in the future we will build off of this skeleton. I"m going to stay with a mono red version as of right now just to wait for the waters to calm that way I''ll know what to sideboard and expect in the meta.

    But Rakdos in general looks rather good this go round. Creature wise its exactly what RDW needed. (RDW is probably gonna mena Rakdos Deck wins rather than Red deck wins this go round. To much goodstuff in black to think of NOT going in that direction)
    JOIN THE MOTION! REVIVE EXTENDED FORMAT PLAY!


    Current Decks

    Standard
    RDW R

    Extended
    ELDRAZIWOLFRUN RG
    DEMONIC LANDFALL BG
    GOBLINS RU
    ELVESG

    Modern
    Storm UR
    Land Destruction RB
    Turbo Smog WR

  • #24
    Dalems's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures 28
    4 Rakdos Cackler
    4 Vexing Devil
    4 Blistercoil Weird
    4 Ash Zealot
    4 Pyreheart Wolf
    4 Hellrider

    Spells 15
    4 Pillar of Flame
    3 Flames of the Firebrand
    4 NightBird's Clutches
    4 Searing Spear

    Land 21
    19 Mountain
    2 Hellion Cruciable



    This is probably the fastest deck that the format can offer atm. Pyreheart wolf and Nightbird's clutches provide the needed reach while the burn is there to clear the way and finish the job. Needs some testing but this is as fast of a Mono red deck as we are getting this format average draws should look something like this.

    1. Mountain, Vexing devil (opp at 16)
    2. Moutain, 2x Rakdos cackler
    3. Pyre heart wolf
    4. Hell rider swing for 12
    5. End the Game

    After doing some math I noticed that Vexing Devil is indeed not good enough...wtf.

    I think that the best deck in format is going to be Bant aggro...They have lifegain, counters, best creatures, strongest removal... I hate blue.
    Currently testing/playing

    GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR
  • #25
    Quote from Yorutenchi
    No vexing devil? I still can't for the life of me understand why people don't play him. If he is good enough to fit into legacy decks.....though I guess its not exactly teh same thing.

    I just know from my testing and experience I haven't regreted seeing a vexing devil unless ist turn 5+. but if it IS turn 5+ I can't really think of anything i WOULD want to see.


    Zemanjaski's answer to Vexing Devil questions, from the RDW thread in the Standard Deck Creation forum:

    Quote from zemanjaski
    Smile I actually like the card a lot. It is very good in legacy burn. Some of us ran it to a lot of success in a standard burn deck very recently (you can view the discussion and lists here).

    Some things to know about the 'punisher' cards (so called because they punish you when your opponent gets to choose):
    - your opponent gets to choose in what mode the card operates. Obvious, but this bears repeating.
    - the worth of the card is not in either mode. Obviously, a 4/3 for R or 4 damage for R are both excellent. But you won't get the better half when you want it. Making the card playable means having a deck that can make the most of the worse-half. For example, in legacy, you're going to usually get the 4 damage for R - turns out that is perfectly fine in a deck of 20 lightning bolts. In standard, where the burn quality is much lower, the card disadvantage of throwing away a card is a much more real concern - damage to the opponent isnt really good unless it kills them - because if it doesnt, you're just down a card for nothing.
    - standard really requires a creature to be a repetitive source of damage. This is even more important now that there is increased lifegain in the format. If your plan is to kill your opponent with 7-8 burn spells and they gain 5 life, you're in a lot of trouble. If your plan is to beat them to death with creatures, gaining life isnt always a big deal.

    When we were playing vexing devil, it was alongside Shrine of Burning Rage, Incinerate, Searing Spear and Thunderbolt. That is a much more high quality burn package than is available right now. Vexing Devil fits more comfortably into that deck because you can realistically just kill someone with spells. We can't do that now, so we need creatures to do a lot of work. 4 damage for R seems like a lot, but when you realise that Cackler does that in two turns and can then trade for something, or Stromkirk Noble can just take over a game by itself, it isnt that impressive - and the additional play (and opportunity to outplay) your opponent with actual burn spells or creatures cannot be underestimated.

    Vexing Devil gets unfairly dismissed. It is not nearly as bad as a lot of its detractors claim on the forums. For the most part, theyre bad players or relying on word of mouth or relying on the fact that similar punisher cards have been bad in the past. But Vexing Devil has the most pushed modes of any punisher card so far. It isnt always going to be good in standard, but if a card sees play in legacy, it is a powerful card. Many cards that are important in legacy never saw that much play in standard. It happens sometimes - a card just needs to be part of a shell that needs more parts than Standard can provide. That is basically the case here.

    In summary:
    - there isnt enough high quality burn spells to make a burn deck viable in standard
    - as a result the most common mode of Vexing Devil - take 4 damage - is actively bad
    - there is a lot of lifegain in standard
    - we need creatures that can deal consistent damage. Vexing Devil will usually be a one-time 4 damage. This isnt enough of a return anymore.
    - red has other very aggressive 1-drops that are often going to do 4 damage.
    - Vexing Devil is still awesome in eternal formats.

    Hope that helps! Be on the lookout for the primer where I will go through pretty much everything Smile

    Also, Sigarda is a hooker. One you don't know is a hooker. Until she demands payment and her pimp beats the $hit out of you.
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