There's flames of the firebrand instead. That card will be competitive the coming months . also no morbid is required for Tragic Slip. This guy certainly doesn't earn a slot in the core of the deck, IMO.
With so many decks boarding in Knight of Glory, being able to Rancor up Highborn Ghoul and get in there for 4 on T3 is looking really good. I've had many people waste resources on a Highborn Ghoul with Rancor while I have Lotleth Troll and Messengers on board. Go watch SCG Open, I've seen Knight of Glory in almost every game today. I've had great success with the card. I think it is certainly core, at least until the format starts to shape itself.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Let the knowledge of absolute law inspire you to live a life of absolute order."
So here is a list of the top decklists of SCG Cincinnati, it is now added to the main page of this primer along with updates to card selection and what have you.
The GB Zombies list that made top 8 had some very interesting cards. He used Crippling Blight to great effect against Thragtusk and Angel of Serenity in the Reanimator matchup even though he lost to it in top 4. Definitely worth testing, I watched him push damage through multiple times because of that card and use it as pseud-removal. Knight of Infamy is another interesting option with so many Selesnya Aggro decks.
With so many decks boarding in Knight of Glory, being able to Rancor up Highborn Ghoul and get in there for 4 on T3 is looking really good. I've had many people waste resources on a Highborn Ghoul with Rancor while I have Lotleth Troll and Messengers on board. Go watch SCG Open, I've seen Knight of Glory in almost every game today. I've had great success with the card. I think it is certainly core, at least until the format starts to shape itself.
Knight of Infamy is really good in the SB for us too.
I played at a 56 person SCG Invitational Qualifier in Montclair, CA.
Round 1 vs. Jund Zombies. Game 1, my mistake late game when I didn't Tragic Slip one of his creatures on my turn lead to exact damage when I had exact next turn. Game 2, I put way too many 1 drops to lose. Game 3, I keep Swamp, Cavern, and 5 other cards. I draw Vampire Nighthawk, Vampire Nighthawk, Dreg Mangler, and never a land this game and lose. 1-2.
Round 2 vs. (rogue) GBu Zombies. This guy didn't really have a chance. He had a very rogue deck that had mana problems and got a game loss for registering it incorrectly. We played 2 anyway and he lost very handily. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Ramp. Game 1, I put enough pressure and have 2 Rancor to put on Geralf's Messenger when he cast Griselbrand. He was forced to block and lost to a Sign in Blood. Game 2, he made a mistake of not gaining control of Geralf's Messenger with Nicol Bolas, PW and I top decked Tragic Slip to kill his Keyrune so it couldn't block for lethal. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Bant Midrange. Game 1, I get a bunch of creatures and put lethal before he can do anything of importance other than 1 Thragtusk. Game 2, I lose to several Thragtusk and then Angel of Serenity. Game 3, I get enough damage to use a Sign in Blood for lethal. 2-1.
Round 5 vs. Jund Zombies. I lose game 1 on the play when he goes all in with a Falkenrath Aristocrat with other creatures for exactly 10. He loses game 2 on the due to me having way too much pressure and him just mainly defense. Game 3, he goes for the Falkenrath Aristocrat win again, but I have Tragic Slip this time. 2-1.
Round 6 vs. Bant Midrange. The best player here in my opinion. Game 1, I put a lot of creatures on the board. He is only able to play 2 Supreme Verdict and has 4 land in hand. Game 2, he gets control with several Thragtusk and Restoration Angel and beats me up while I hold land. Game 3 is similar to game 1. I just have too fast and resilient a hand and do Sign in Blood for lethal. 2-1.
I make 4th place at 5-1.
Top 8 vs. GW Aggro. Game 1, I make a mistake of not knowing that Selesnya Charm can exile a 5 power creature and my Messenger gets exiled. He double Rancors 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim and swings for exactly 6. I keep a 2 Swamp hand in game 2 and don't see another with 4 Gold cards in hand. Guess I deserved that for not playing safer in game 1. 0-2.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Was previously running Damia(GBU) Zombie Pod, but without the pod the deck needs work. So until i draft up a new Damia or Jund list I think I'll keep it simple and use something close to this.
Rakdos Cackler is just an amazing little bundle of pain for the opponent. I'm not a fan of it loosing the ability to chump block, but at the same time a 2/2 for 1 mana is what this deck is all about. Add in some Rancor and the opponent has some serious trouble on their hands.
Thrill-kill Assassin is an interesting card. whether you unleash or not, its something your opponent almost never wants to block or get blocked by. But... Just not feeling the card yet. I'd Rather pay an extra mana for Vampire Nighthawk and gain life, throw rancor on it for more life.
Highborn Ghoul is a pretty decent 2 drop. My only problem is my meta was filled with a lot of black so he was more often a chump blocker than a damage ninja. Sideboard maybe, maiboard if my meta lightens up.
Rakdos Shred-Freak... I just don't see the general appeal to this guy. Ya 2/1 haster is nice, but even 1/1 bird tokens eat his attacks. And even with rancor he's practically a 4/1 haster trampler for 3 mana. I'd rather drop a dreg mangler. Higher survivability, card adv with the scavenge if it dies. Just a better way to spend mana. I just feel he is a bad card.
Blood Artist. If you don't know the appeal of this guy, then clearly you probably haven't played with or against it. I'm not sure if it is still quite as good post pod rotation, but that is what testing is for.
Abrupt Decay is an awesome card, hoses formats. However it just falls by the way side after your opponent starts playing higher mana costed things. Sideboard for sure.
Dead weight is a whole -2/-2. It can kill many creatures and blunt the assault or defense of a single creature. Its a shock in enchantment form.
Crippling Blight, I feel is the better card. Why? It may not kill the creature you place it on, but it will prevent them from blocking. Why is this a good thing? Because people like to leave one fatty untapped usually to loose minimal life in your assaults. Won't they be surprised when that Thragtusk or Vampire Nighthawk sits derpily untapped on their field and they can't even use it to block. And even if they then start using it as an attacker, its 1 less damage you'll be getting hit with each turn.
Honestly I'd throw DW in sideboard for when you need extra cheep removal.
crippling blight is quite risky against restoration angel though. I think it's a bit early for it still as many GW are and probably should be playing restoration angel still.
Restoration angel lost some of the cute blink targets but instant removal/counters also took a huge dive in this format making the angel still great. Almost no zombies deck i see for example can handle with the flashblocking angel making it removal as well.
Overall the jund list is just better than BG zombies though imo. Falkenrath aristrocrat is amazing that it's just silly not taking the nearly free splash for it.
I'd even go as far as improving the red splash to include some burn. Tragic slip is terrible card now. It doesn;t kill anything except aristocrat that you;d want to kill in the mirror, only kills manadorks against GW and is pretty much dead in most other matchups.
crippling blight is quite risky against restoration angel though. I think it's a bit early for it still as many GW are and probably should be playing restoration angel still.
Restoration angel lost some of the cute blink targets but instant removal/counters also took a huge dive in this format making the angel still great. Almost no zombies deck i see for example can handle with the flashblocking angel making it removal as well.
Overall the jund list is just better than BG zombies though imo. Falkenrath aristrocrat is amazing that it's just silly not taking the nearly free splash for it.
I'd even go as far as improving the red splash to include some burn. Tragic slip is terrible card now. It doesn;t kill anything except aristocrat that you;d want to kill in the mirror, only kills manadorks against GW and is pretty much dead in most other matchups.
The "free splash" also comes with the risk playing another set of shocks in Blood Crypt. With such an aggressive format, I think that is more of a risk than playing the more consistent shell of GB. You lose some horsepower for not playing Aristocrat, yes, but you make up for it in consistency because I'm not in favor of playing a 3 color mana base right now. With Jund you get a little more reach, but I saw guys on SCG sit with Falkenrath Aristocrat and Brimstone Volley in hand all day yesterday because they couldn't dig up the R to cast them. Being a turn or two slow right now is the difference between winning and losing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Let the knowledge of absolute law inspire you to live a life of absolute order."
The "free splash" also comes with the risk playing another set of shocks in Blood Crypt. With such an aggressive format, I think that is more of a risk than playing the more consistent shell of GB. You lose some horsepower for not playing Aristocrat, yes, but you make up for it in consistency because I'm not in favor of playing a 3 color mana base right now. With Jund you get a little more reach, but I saw guys on SCG sit with Falkenrath Aristocrat and Brimstone Volley in hand all day yesterday because they couldn't dig up the R to cast them. Being a turn or two slow right now is the difference between winning and losing.
As someone who played Jund Zombies yesterday this is 100% correct. BG or BR Zombies would be the way to go for any aggro player. I also suggest that cards like Murder be given a shot in non red Zombie decks as you will need something to kill a fatty. With all of the GW decks out there having Lily discard will eventually cause you 4 damage from being smitten.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Follow me at MTGPackFoils on Twitter & Facebook.
currently playing:
Standard UW Control UWB Control UB Control MODERN BRGJund X Affinity UWR Control
The "free splash" also comes with the risk playing another set of shocks in Blood Crypt. With such an aggressive format, I think that is more of a risk than playing the more consistent shell of GB. You lose some horsepower for not playing Aristocrat, yes, but you make up for it in consistency because I'm not in favor of playing a 3 color mana base right now. With Jund you get a little more reach, but I saw guys on SCG sit with Falkenrath Aristocrat and Brimstone Volley in hand all day yesterday because they couldn't dig up the R to cast them. Being a turn or two slow right now is the difference between winning and losing.
You do realize there's the same amount of red land splash as in BR or green land splash in GB that are in Jund.
Just throwing my two cents in - I've been working hard on my Jund zombie list for some time now and I think I've finally realized Golgari Zombies is... better. I know Jund is/can be more powerful, but BGZ - at least the list I'm running - is super resilient and always seems to manage to 'get there'.
A couple explanations for some of the unusual choices here:
-First off, I know I know, only 8 1 drop 2 power beaters. Slow right? I opted for the 2 deathrite shamans because on top of everything it can do for you vs frites/snapcaster/the mirror, it's a shock stick to help get that last 2 damage in. It has, on occasion, given me an extra turn (with the lifegain) when I would've otherwise lost (but not, admittedly, often). I feel like he replaced fume spitter as my 2-of 1 drop utility creature (though he's much different, and, IMHO, much better).
-Second, Desecration demon as my 2-of 4 drop is amazing. I can't say enough good things about the guy - gets rid of blockers or swings for 6 in the air - all for 4 cmc? I feel like he is extremely undervalued and underestimated. So what if you never swing with him? He still kills creatures that would otherwise be in the way. He pairs nicely with Blood Artist too.
-Third, crippling blight is a boss.
-Fourth, the 1-of Bloodthrone Vampire is kind of like an ace in the hole. When I have it in my hand with a messenger on the board and/or a blood artist in my hand or on the board, I feel like I have a surprise win up my sleeve. Bring you down from 13 to 7, cast bloodthrone and artist, sac my messenger twice (4 damage), my mangler/crawler/ghoul/artist etc for the win. Happens maybe 3/10 times but it's fun and there are plenty of other ways to win (looking at you loltroll).
-Fifth, three Lotleth Trolls feels about right to me - I only need to see 1 during the game (2 if one gets -x/-x'd or somehow dies).
-Sixth, my sideboard needs help and is also the result of the cards I have available (only pulled 1 abrupt decay from 5 of those prerelease event boxes (1 of each guild) and 3 booster boxes - and no one wants to trade theirs). I like naturalize and golgari charm and access to more removal when I need it, but I'll admit my SB is far from finished.
I ran BR zombies before rotation and I've been playing around with Jund zombies on Cockatrice for a while now, but with this list, I feel like I'm playing an actual 'night of the living dead' type zombie deck -- slow but unstoppable.
Like the addition of the 1 deadly allure, think this might work well with tragic slip as I am finding it so difficult to get the morbid trigger. No one falls for the old suicidal gravecrawler, this makes them block and the flashback means you are likely to get to play the same trick twice.
I love deadly allure on lotleth troll, rancored gravecrawler/black cat to maximize the trample damage. Black cat's sacrifice turn things up side down.
With Deadly Allure, Dreg Mangler, Gravecrawler and Ghoulcaller's Chant do you think trying to run Grisly Salvage is worthwhile trying? A lot of decks run at least a couple sign in blood but personally I am starting to dislike shocking myself for land and then doing it again to draw cards. Not trying to go down the road of reanimator just looking at using the graveyard more as a resource.
How often do you actually have to play a shockland untapped though when you're only running 4 of them? I haven't actually been keeping track but if I had to guess I'd say I only do so roughly once every ten or so games in B/R Zombies with the other games either giving me a chance to play them tapped as I have no way to use the mana that turn or not drawing them early enough to matter. I mean I do actively play around shocking myself too when maybe other people do not so maybe that's why I don't find it to be a big deal. If I have a hand of Swamp, Swamp, Blood Crypt for example I hold off playing the Blood Crypt until either I absolutely need the mana or until I find a chance where I can afford to play it tapped. I could see the Sign in Blood concern being valid in Jund Zombies but I haven't really had a problem with it in B/R and expect that B/G shouldn't be too much different.
The problem I have is the Black removal package is so unreliable, I used to love tragic slip when I had mortarpods and fume spitters now opponents can play around it too easily. 2 cmc removal is too situational and murder is too expensive. Whilst I am happy that I can beat most control decks by being so fast out of the gate I would like my deck to have a little more options than the average BG Zombie deck. Red has it's burn to get around these problems I would like to think there are alternatives to just scooping when my opponent plays a temple garden.
Yeah, I've been thinking that tragic slip seems more...tragic than it used to.
I'm getting to the point where Jund, even with the clunky manabase, may be a necessity to get broad removal. However, in my testing, eight shocks does make a difference vs. other aggressive decks.
I'm going to try a couple of victim of nights in the board, but I'm just not loving it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
I've playtested the demon as a 2 of in my GB zombie and it's been pretty good. I think it will stay in my maindeck as it gives late game reach and is overall just a beast. Here's my deck for now
Well adressing your first point, most selsenya decks use much more powerful tokens (Centaur, Wurm, and Dragon)
Second question, Garruk is meh, he has been useful sometimes ttho, his wolfs pump your aggro up, and his flip is obviously better. Desecration works amazing he forces your opponents to take major damage or lose a creature, whic gives them 1 less blocker. Crippling Blight can cause you to win often.
Not to bash on Golgari Zombies, but what exactly makes this archtype better than Jund?
It seems to me that any/most problems BG has are solved with the addition of Red. With all the dual lands out now it doesn't seem like mana would even be a problem and there would be no loss of agression.
What am I not seeing that makes Jund "slower"? Is the potential of drawing only check lands opening hand?
Not to bash on Golgari Zombies, but what exactly makes this archtype better than Jund?
It seems to me that any/most problems BG has are solved with the addition of Red. With all the dual lands out now it doesn't seem like mana would even be a problem and there would be no loss of agression.
What am I not seeing that makes Jund "slower"? Is the potential of drawing only check lands opening hand?
Jund isn't necessarily slower, but it's a lot less consistent, depends on Cavern of Souls, and is at a disadvantage against other aggro decks because of the pain you will likely have to take from running 8 shocklands.
My biggest question for this list is this: is there a reasonable way to deal with Thragtusk? Is it just Desecration Demon and Skirsdag High Priest to go over the top of them? As of now that seems to be the answer.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
OMG you stupid ****ing n00b... stfu and stop playing mtg because youre t3h suck!oneone
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
With so many decks boarding in Knight of Glory, being able to Rancor up Highborn Ghoul and get in there for 4 on T3 is looking really good. I've had many people waste resources on a Highborn Ghoul with Rancor while I have Lotleth Troll and Messengers on board. Go watch SCG Open, I've seen Knight of Glory in almost every game today. I've had great success with the card. I think it is certainly core, at least until the format starts to shape itself.
"Let the knowledge of absolute law inspire you to live a life of absolute order."
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Thrill-kill Assassin
Spells: 14
3 Rancor
4 Tragic Slip
2 Duress
1 Deadly Allure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Tribute to Hunger
11 Swamp
2 Golgari Guildgate
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Appetite for Brains
2 Sever the Bloodline
4 Knight of Infamy
2 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Rakdos Cackler
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2012-10-07&end_date=2012-10-07&event_ID=19
The GB Zombies list that made top 8 had some very interesting cards. He used Crippling Blight to great effect against Thragtusk and Angel of Serenity in the Reanimator matchup even though he lost to it in top 4. Definitely worth testing, I watched him push damage through multiple times because of that card and use it as pseud-removal. Knight of Infamy is another interesting option with so many Selesnya Aggro decks.
Discuss!
"Let the knowledge of absolute law inspire you to live a life of absolute order."
Top 16 GP Miami 2013
Top 4 Florida States 2013
Several PTQ top 8's
Writer for South Florida Magic
Knight of Infamy is really good in the SB for us too.
I played at a 56 person SCG Invitational Qualifier in Montclair, CA.
Round 1 vs. Jund Zombies. Game 1, my mistake late game when I didn't Tragic Slip one of his creatures on my turn lead to exact damage when I had exact next turn. Game 2, I put way too many 1 drops to lose. Game 3, I keep Swamp, Cavern, and 5 other cards. I draw Vampire Nighthawk, Vampire Nighthawk, Dreg Mangler, and never a land this game and lose. 1-2.
Round 2 vs. (rogue) GBu Zombies. This guy didn't really have a chance. He had a very rogue deck that had mana problems and got a game loss for registering it incorrectly. We played 2 anyway and he lost very handily. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Grixis Ramp. Game 1, I put enough pressure and have 2 Rancor to put on Geralf's Messenger when he cast Griselbrand. He was forced to block and lost to a Sign in Blood. Game 2, he made a mistake of not gaining control of Geralf's Messenger with Nicol Bolas, PW and I top decked Tragic Slip to kill his Keyrune so it couldn't block for lethal. 2-0.
Round 4 vs. Bant Midrange. Game 1, I get a bunch of creatures and put lethal before he can do anything of importance other than 1 Thragtusk. Game 2, I lose to several Thragtusk and then Angel of Serenity. Game 3, I get enough damage to use a Sign in Blood for lethal. 2-1.
Round 5 vs. Jund Zombies. I lose game 1 on the play when he goes all in with a Falkenrath Aristocrat with other creatures for exactly 10. He loses game 2 on the due to me having way too much pressure and him just mainly defense. Game 3, he goes for the Falkenrath Aristocrat win again, but I have Tragic Slip this time. 2-1.
Round 6 vs. Bant Midrange. The best player here in my opinion. Game 1, I put a lot of creatures on the board. He is only able to play 2 Supreme Verdict and has 4 land in hand. Game 2, he gets control with several Thragtusk and Restoration Angel and beats me up while I hold land. Game 3 is similar to game 1. I just have too fast and resilient a hand and do Sign in Blood for lethal. 2-1.
I make 4th place at 5-1.
Top 8 vs. GW Aggro. Game 1, I make a mistake of not knowing that Selesnya Charm can exile a 5 power creature and my Messenger gets exiled. He double Rancors 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim and swings for exactly 6. I keep a 2 Swamp hand in game 2 and don't see another with 4 Gold cards in hand. Guess I deserved that for not playing safer in game 1. 0-2.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
-1-
4 Gravecrawler
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
-2-
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Blood Artist
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Dreg Mangler
==Etc== 13
-1-
3 Rancor
4 Tragic Slip
3 Crippling Blight
3 Sign in Blood
==Land= 22
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Swamp
Was previously running Damia(GBU) Zombie Pod, but without the pod the deck needs work. So until i draft up a new Damia or Jund list I think I'll keep it simple and use something close to this.
Rakdos Cackler is just an amazing little bundle of pain for the opponent. I'm not a fan of it loosing the ability to chump block, but at the same time a 2/2 for 1 mana is what this deck is all about. Add in some Rancor and the opponent has some serious trouble on their hands.
Thrill-kill Assassin is an interesting card. whether you unleash or not, its something your opponent almost never wants to block or get blocked by. But... Just not feeling the card yet. I'd Rather pay an extra mana for Vampire Nighthawk and gain life, throw rancor on it for more life.
Highborn Ghoul is a pretty decent 2 drop. My only problem is my meta was filled with a lot of black so he was more often a chump blocker than a damage ninja. Sideboard maybe, maiboard if my meta lightens up.
Rakdos Shred-Freak... I just don't see the general appeal to this guy. Ya 2/1 haster is nice, but even 1/1 bird tokens eat his attacks. And even with rancor he's practically a 4/1 haster trampler for 3 mana. I'd rather drop a dreg mangler. Higher survivability, card adv with the scavenge if it dies. Just a better way to spend mana. I just feel he is a bad card.
Blood Artist. If you don't know the appeal of this guy, then clearly you probably haven't played with or against it. I'm not sure if it is still quite as good post pod rotation, but that is what testing is for.
Abrupt Decay is an awesome card, hoses formats. However it just falls by the way side after your opponent starts playing higher mana costed things. Sideboard for sure.
Crippling Blight Vs Dead Weight.
Dead weight is a whole -2/-2. It can kill many creatures and blunt the assault or defense of a single creature. Its a shock in enchantment form.
Crippling Blight, I feel is the better card. Why? It may not kill the creature you place it on, but it will prevent them from blocking. Why is this a good thing? Because people like to leave one fatty untapped usually to loose minimal life in your assaults. Won't they be surprised when that Thragtusk or Vampire Nighthawk sits derpily untapped on their field and they can't even use it to block. And even if they then start using it as an attacker, its 1 less damage you'll be getting hit with each turn.
Honestly I'd throw DW in sideboard for when you need extra cheep removal.
[i]Legacy:[/i]
UBW Affinity
RRR Burn
WWW Death and Taxes
[i]EDH:[/i]
UUU Azami's High Tide Wizards
0R0 Daretti's Staxheep
URG Animar Combo
WUBRG Progenitus Superfriends
WWGSissay's Sissies
[i] Tiny Leaders EDH
1RR Chandra Burn
RBW Alesha's Aristocrats & Taxes
UUU Kira's Merfolk Cult
GGG Ezuri's Elfball
Restoration angel lost some of the cute blink targets but instant removal/counters also took a huge dive in this format making the angel still great. Almost no zombies deck i see for example can handle with the flashblocking angel making it removal as well.
Overall the jund list is just better than BG zombies though imo. Falkenrath aristrocrat is amazing that it's just silly not taking the nearly free splash for it.
I'd even go as far as improving the red splash to include some burn. Tragic slip is terrible card now. It doesn;t kill anything except aristocrat that you;d want to kill in the mirror, only kills manadorks against GW and is pretty much dead in most other matchups.
The "free splash" also comes with the risk playing another set of shocks in Blood Crypt. With such an aggressive format, I think that is more of a risk than playing the more consistent shell of GB. You lose some horsepower for not playing Aristocrat, yes, but you make up for it in consistency because I'm not in favor of playing a 3 color mana base right now. With Jund you get a little more reach, but I saw guys on SCG sit with Falkenrath Aristocrat and Brimstone Volley in hand all day yesterday because they couldn't dig up the R to cast them. Being a turn or two slow right now is the difference between winning and losing.
"Let the knowledge of absolute law inspire you to live a life of absolute order."
As someone who played Jund Zombies yesterday this is 100% correct. BG or BR Zombies would be the way to go for any aggro player. I also suggest that cards like Murder be given a shot in non red Zombie decks as you will need something to kill a fatty. With all of the GW decks out there having Lily discard will eventually cause you 4 damage from being smitten.
currently playing:
Standard
UW Control
UWB Control
UB Control
MODERN
BRGJund
X Affinity
UWR Control
LEGACY
Dredge
R Burn
UWx Miracles
EDH
BRW Kaalia
______
Quotes:
My Magic Card nicknames.
You do realize there's the same amount of red land splash as in BR or green land splash in GB that are in Jund.
Btw here is my decklist, i'm trying out some different stuff on Cockatrice.
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Overgrown Tomb
4x Woodland Cemetary
10x Swamp
Creature
3 Geralf's Messenger
4 Rakdos Cackler
3 Dreg Mangler
2 Desecration Demon
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Blood Artist
2 Bloodline Keeper
2 Tragic Slip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sign in Blood
3 Rancor
2 Crippling Blight
Planeswalker
3 Garruk Relentless
3 Skirsdag High Priest
2 Golgari Charm
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Duress
3 Ultimate Price
1 Tragic Slip
Signature and Avatar by Inkfox Aesthetics
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
3 Dreg Mangler
4 Thrill-kill Assassin
3 Geralf's Messenger
4 Black Cat
2 Rakdos Cackler
3 Rancor
3 Tragic Slip
1 Deadly Allure
2 Ghoulcaller's Chant
1 Golgari Charm
Lands: 22
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Swamp
2 Crippling Blight
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Victim of Night
2 Cremate
3 Vampire Nighthawk
1 Sever the Bloodline
4 Knight of Infamy
Against tokens I think that Golgari Charm does the trick nicely. It blows up Intangible Virtue, it sweeps their 1/1's. How has Desecration Demon in the main been for you? Crippling Blight and Garruk Relentless as well?
"Let the knowledge of absolute law inspire you to live a life of absolute order."
Yes, but playing 8 shocks isn't ideal when the format is playing a million 2/2 1 drops and Loxodon Smiter on turn 2.
"Let the knowledge of absolute law inspire you to live a life of absolute order."
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Lotleth Troll
3 Blood Artist
1 Bloodthrone Vampire
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Dreg Mangler
2 Desecration Demon
2 Crippling Blight
3 Rancor
Instants: 3
3 Tragic Slip
Sorceries: 3
3 Sign in Blood
Lands: 23
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
13 Swamp
3 Dead Weight
1 Underworld Connections
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
2 Naturalize
2 Victim of the Night
4 Duress
A couple explanations for some of the unusual choices here:
-First off, I know I know, only 8 1 drop 2 power beaters. Slow right? I opted for the 2 deathrite shamans because on top of everything it can do for you vs frites/snapcaster/the mirror, it's a shock stick to help get that last 2 damage in. It has, on occasion, given me an extra turn (with the lifegain) when I would've otherwise lost (but not, admittedly, often). I feel like he replaced fume spitter as my 2-of 1 drop utility creature (though he's much different, and, IMHO, much better).
-Second, Desecration demon as my 2-of 4 drop is amazing. I can't say enough good things about the guy - gets rid of blockers or swings for 6 in the air - all for 4 cmc? I feel like he is extremely undervalued and underestimated. So what if you never swing with him? He still kills creatures that would otherwise be in the way. He pairs nicely with Blood Artist too.
-Third, crippling blight is a boss.
-Fourth, the 1-of Bloodthrone Vampire is kind of like an ace in the hole. When I have it in my hand with a messenger on the board and/or a blood artist in my hand or on the board, I feel like I have a surprise win up my sleeve. Bring you down from 13 to 7, cast bloodthrone and artist, sac my messenger twice (4 damage), my mangler/crawler/ghoul/artist etc for the win. Happens maybe 3/10 times but it's fun and there are plenty of other ways to win (looking at you loltroll).
-Fifth, three Lotleth Trolls feels about right to me - I only need to see 1 during the game (2 if one gets -x/-x'd or somehow dies).
-Sixth, my sideboard needs help and is also the result of the cards I have available (only pulled 1 abrupt decay from 5 of those prerelease event boxes (1 of each guild) and 3 booster boxes - and no one wants to trade theirs). I like naturalize and golgari charm and access to more removal when I need it, but I'll admit my SB is far from finished.
I ran BR zombies before rotation and I've been playing around with Jund zombies on Cockatrice for a while now, but with this list, I feel like I'm playing an actual 'night of the living dead' type zombie deck -- slow but unstoppable.
I love deadly allure on lotleth troll, rancored gravecrawler/black cat to maximize the trample damage. Black cat's sacrifice turn things up side down.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Thrill-kill Assassin
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Diregraf Ghoul
3 Black Cat
2 Rakdos Cackler
2 Dreg Mangler
3 Rancor
3 Crippling Blight
1 Deadly Allure
2 Ghoulcaller's Chant
2 Garruk Relentless
Lands: 22
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Woodland Cemetery
4 Cavern of Souls
10 Swamp
4 Knight of Infamy
3 Tragic Slip
3 Cremate (Zombie or Unburial Rites meta) or 3 Duress or 3 Appetite for Brains (Control meta)
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Dreg Mangler
How often do you actually have to play a shockland untapped though when you're only running 4 of them? I haven't actually been keeping track but if I had to guess I'd say I only do so roughly once every ten or so games in B/R Zombies with the other games either giving me a chance to play them tapped as I have no way to use the mana that turn or not drawing them early enough to matter. I mean I do actively play around shocking myself too when maybe other people do not so maybe that's why I don't find it to be a big deal. If I have a hand of Swamp, Swamp, Blood Crypt for example I hold off playing the Blood Crypt until either I absolutely need the mana or until I find a chance where I can afford to play it tapped. I could see the Sign in Blood concern being valid in Jund Zombies but I haven't really had a problem with it in B/R and expect that B/G shouldn't be too much different.
Yeah, I've been thinking that tragic slip seems more...tragic than it used to.
I'm getting to the point where Jund, even with the clunky manabase, may be a necessity to get broad removal. However, in my testing, eight shocks does make a difference vs. other aggressive decks.
I'm going to try a couple of victim of nights in the board, but I'm just not loving it.
MAIN:
Creatures:
4xGravecrawler
4x Diregraf Ghoul
3x Radkos Crackler
4x Lotleth troll
4x Dreg Mangler
4x Geralf's messenger
2x Desecration demon
Spells:
1x Sever the bloodline
2x Golgari Charm
1x Abrupt decay
1x Ultimate price
2x Tragic Slip
4x Rancor
2x Sign in blood
Lands:
4x Woodland cemetery
4x Overgrown tomb
2x Forest
12x Swamp
Well adressing your first point, most selsenya decks use much more powerful tokens (Centaur, Wurm, and Dragon)
Second question, Garruk is meh, he has been useful sometimes ttho, his wolfs pump your aggro up, and his flip is obviously better. Desecration works amazing he forces your opponents to take major damage or lose a creature, whic gives them 1 less blocker. Crippling Blight can cause you to win often.
Signature and Avatar by Inkfox Aesthetics
It seems to me that any/most problems BG has are solved with the addition of Red. With all the dual lands out now it doesn't seem like mana would even be a problem and there would be no loss of agression.
What am I not seeing that makes Jund "slower"? Is the potential of drawing only check lands opening hand?
Jund isn't necessarily slower, but it's a lot less consistent, depends on Cavern of Souls, and is at a disadvantage against other aggro decks because of the pain you will likely have to take from running 8 shocklands.
My biggest question for this list is this: is there a reasonable way to deal with Thragtusk? Is it just Desecration Demon and Skirsdag High Priest to go over the top of them? As of now that seems to be the answer.