I have a few comments but overall it's pretty similar to a lot of people's. It seems to me we have a good base to work with now. First comment is that your curve might simply be too high without enough ramp. Running 3 blessing and 2 wurms is pretty high - I'm not sure I agree on the wurm. While it is a fantastic card, it seems to me that it would e better in a traditional G/W (bant or junk) list. We don't have the ramp to hit it consistently and the token is far more important to us than the actual wurm. It should be the other way around, this card is bonkers with resto angel - and that's where it should stay in my eyes. Which brings me to resto angel. In a token deck it is not a good card. What are you going to flicker? Trostani, a token, an elf? All of
These are bad choices... I don't feel that it has enough synergy to best out other cards (haunting or removal). I miss Rancor myself, I feel there has to be a way to get it in. At least 2, pref 3. Thraggy is a sb card at best to deal with zombies. The question then becomes is it too slow? And, is Trostani better st that them Thraggy? Wed need to test that. Also, as an off note - I think you need a few more black sources, even for just LS. Tombs/Cemetary/Chapels are all perfect cards with shocks.
@ Maraga I am really considering Abrupt Decay. Im curious as to your answer.
You are probably right about the Wurm.. it just seems too good to leave out, but it probably fits in a different deck better. The point of adding the Angel was to blink the Wurm and get another token and gain 10 life with Trostani, but like we both said, its probably a different deck strategy.
If I take out the Wurm I would put Champion of Lambholt back in, cause I like that card in this deck. Don't know how to squeeze Rancor in, its a really good card.
And yeah i probably need a couple more black sources like Isolated Chapel if i can get my hands on some.
You are probably right about the Wurm.. it just seems too good to leave out, but it probably fits in a different deck better. The point of adding the Angel was to blink the Wurm and get another token and gain 10 life with Trostani, but like we both said, its probably a different deck strategy.
If I take out the Wurm I would put Champion of Lambholt back in, cause I like that card in this deck. Don't know how to squeeze Rancor in, its a really good card.
Armada Wurm, as appealing as it is, truly is better suited for a deck that has focus on creature card, not the creature token.
Edit: Oh, someone already stated this.
If you bounce Trostani with Restoration Angel you actually only gain the 4 life from the angel entering the field; Trostani reads "other creatures."
Edit: I also misread this, but either way, you shouldn't be leaving yourself in such an extend position.
Also, if it's between A.Wurm and Lambholt, you should add Rancor instead. A creature bounced loses his life, not Rancor, but a Lambholt bounced loses all worth.
@ Maraga I am really considering Abrupt Decay. Im curious as to your answer.
Regarding lack of Midnight Haunting, I find that I'm never really hoping to land this card at any given moment. I've never had a problem with drawing token producers in some form; and as I've said before, I'd rather be sitting pretty with a Rootborn Defense than wanting to push just that little bit more through with an additional two Spirits. I think we've also discussed before that "Junk Tokens" doesn't exactly aim to produce 1/1s like BW Tokens had.
Of all the cards I find producing the most tokens that stick for me, it's between Call of the Conclave, Lingering Souls, and Selesyna Charm. It should be noted, however, that I've been practicing mainly against a deck that scarcely has single creatures with more than 5 power, in range of Selesyna Charm's exile ability. However, this may also be a reason for my so far somewhat biased judgement of Abrupt Decay—where I'm able to save valuables from an Oblivion Ring / getting two-fers against Silverblade Paladin.
Additionally, in this current meta ( although it will likely change ) where life gain is absolutely valuable, I find things like Gavony Township slightly less appealing than Vault of the Archangel; which is reason for my singleton of the former, and testing of Grove of the Guardian. ( Which, might I add, has won me all but one game he's awoken. Even without any kind of towering ability, you'd be amazed at how game altering a tremendous blocker and possibly 8 life is—let alone two, or three! )
Ahem. Well, stepping more into the realm of Abrupt Decay's worth, I find that we're at an incredibly well seated position to deal with whatever might come our way in the opening match. Selesyna Charm protects us on the overbearing and all powerful side, while Abrupt Decay has us on the lower side. As I've said, my testing is not extremely deep at this point—only about 15 matches against a technically illegal GW Human deck ( forgot to remove Hero of Bladehold )—but the combination of Decay and S.Charm leaves me in a comfortable removal position.
My 3/3 split on Arbor Elf and Avacyn's Pilgrim feels like a nice and effective mix, as well. I believe I've stated before that I usually find myself White flooded ( of course, that could simply be thanks to Cockatrice's somewhat faulty shuffling system ), and being able to make additional or hurtless use of the shocklands really helps me out. I've never had a problem getting Trostani, Voice of Selesyna out when I drew her, but it's really just a matter of that; drawing her. I've only gotten her out twice: once was three or four turns too late, and my field was long since barren; and the other time didn't matter, because my opponent's field was barren. So, it's really a matter of more testing. She holds incredible appeal, and really makes that Grove of the Guardian worth risking, if for nothing more than 8 life.
Umm... I think that's about it, for now. Feel free to ask more questions.
Edit: I think someone made a few comments earlier about 3 Abrupt Decay likely being too much, and I have an odd feeling that may come true for me, as well. 2 and 1 sideboard seems about right... I'm just not sure what I'd replace it with at the moment.
You may be right with the idea that we don't need Midnight Haunting. The 2 1/1s while good at instant speed aren't fantastic overall. There are two reasons I like them, 1) They avoid obvious t4 sweepers in case I don't have a Rootborn Defense in hand, being instant means you can simply just hold on to the card to dodge the sweep and then swing in for 2, 4 (or 8 with respective blessings) which is always nice. However, if losing the Haunting means that we can add cards to help deal with our opponent - it may be worth it.
I did try Grove of the Guardian, and it was a fantastic card I found. I really, really liked it and one most of the games that I activated it. However, I was finding myself black short (especially after adding in Sorin or Abrupt Decay) so I had to cut it for more black mana sources. If I can find a way to add it back in, I will - but with 2 Townships (a dominating card against sweepers - with CB on the field + 1 township activation makes you safe from M.Mortar), 1 Vault (been decent but not better than Township) and 2 Groves it was hard to hit mana consistently.
I'm starting to think Vitu-Ghaz has a place in this deck, even if as a 6 drop. Or a bad three drop if we don't have anything else to play. Maybe I'm biased in testing Trostani - I'll throw her into my sideboard for now against Zombies. Maybe she'll prove herself MB worthy.
My only problem with Abrupt Decay is that it misses cards that really hurt us (excluding Deathhawk). It misses, Sublime Angel, Thragtusk, Huntmaster (non-flipped, but if he's flipped he's paid his worth), Olivia, Aristocrat, Restoration Angel and other cards I'm missing out on right now. I guess I have this choice in front of me - would I rather run 2-3 Rancor + 4 Selesnya Charm to act as a form of removal (everything over 3 power dies - stupid Deathhawk) or not have Rancor and run Abrupt Decay. I'm considering running Rancor MB and Abrupt sideboard... I'm not worried about enemy enchantments because Sundering Growth is the best card evar.
I haven't tested against any other GW Human or Selesnya player though... I'm the only one in my area that I know, so it may be relevant mainboard. It is a very versatile card. I just have to consider if it's better than Haunting.
You may be right with the idea that we don't need Midnight Haunting. The 2 1/1s while good at instant speed aren't fantastic overall. There are two reasons I like them, 1) They avoid obvious t4 sweepers in case I don't have a Rootborn Defenses in hand, being instant means you can simply just hold on to the card to dodge the sweep and then swing in for 2, 4 (or 8 with respective blessings) which is always nice. However, if losing the Haunting means that we can add cards to help deal with our opponent - it may be worth it.
I did try Grove of the Guardian, and it was a fantastic card I found. I really, really liked it and one most of the games that I activated it. However, I was finding myself black short (especially after adding in Sorin or Abrupt Decay) so I had to cut it for more black mana sources. If I can find a way to add it back in, I will - but with 2 Townships (a dominating card against sweepers - with CB on the field + 1 township activation makes you safe from M.Mortar), 1 Vault (been decent but not better than Township) and 2 Groves it was hard to hit mana consistently.
I'm starting to think Vitu-Ghaz has a place in this deck, even if as a 6 drop. Or a bad three drop if we don't have anything else to play. Maybe I'm biased in testing Trostani - I'll throw her into my sideboard for now against Zombies. Maybe she'll prove herself MB worthy.
My only problem with Abrupt Decay is that it misses cards that really hurt us (excluding Deathhawk). It misses, Sublime Angel, Thragtusk, Huntmaster (non-flipped, but if he's flipped he's paid his worth), Olivia, Aristocrat, Restoration Angel and other cards I'm missing out on right now. I guess I have this choice in front of me - would I rather run 2-3 Rancor + 4 Selesnya Charm to act as a form of removal (everything over 3 power dies - stupid Deathhawk) or not have Rancor and run Abrupt Decay. I'm considering running Rancor MB and Abrupt sideboard... I'm not worried about enemy enchantments because Sundering Growth is the best card evar.
I haven't tested against any other GW Human or Selesnya player though... I'm the only one in my area that I know, so it may be relevant mainboard. It is a very versatile card. I just have to consider if it's better than Haunting.
Give it a go. I haven't really missed Haunting, and I sincerely doubt you will. I guess you could argue that a top decked Rootborn Defense after a sweep is worse than a Midnight Haunting, but that's essentially the worst case scenario: empty / dead hand, no enchantments, no Planeswalkers.
I'll have to test out Vitu-Guildmage myself soon, he certainly holds potential. In a stale, drawn-out game, he's certainly got more value than Trostani. Come to think of it... he might just have more potential over all... Kind of sad that he could possibly put his guild leader to shame.
I'd also been considering the Rancor + Selesyna Charm gimmick, and... honestly... I think it might be more than a simple gimmick. Adding Trample really can be all the boost you need... especially with an active Guardian. More over, it—on paper—seems like a more optimal effect and set of options for this deck type. You're technically only losing one card... although, you should heed which colors you play against, lest your opponent knows you're going for it, and plans to counter the charm...
Edit: I've been calling it "Defense" all this time. It's "Rootborn Defenses."
By the way, what the heck is a Deathhawk? Do you mean Vampire Nighthawk?
Give it a go. I haven't really missed Haunting, and I sincerely doubt you will. I guess you could argue that a top decked Rootborn Defense after a sweep is worse than a Midnight Haunting, but that's essentially the worst case scenario: empty / dead hand, no enchantments, no Planeswalkers.
I'll have to test out Vitu-Guildmage myself soon, he certainly holds potential. In a stale, drawn-out game, he's certainly got more value than Trostani. Come to think of it... he might just have more potential over all... Kind of sad that he could possibly put his guild leader to shame.
I'd also been considering the Rancor + Selesyna Charm gimmick, and... honestly... I think it might be more than a simple gimmick. Adding Trample really can be all the boost you need... especially with an active Guardian. More over, it—on paper—seems like a more optimal effect and set of options for this deck type. You're technically only losing one card... although, you should heed which colors you play against, lest your opponent knows you're going for it, and plans to counter the charm...
Edit: I've been calling it "Defense" all this time. It's "Rootborn Defenses."
By the way, what the heck is a Deathhawk? Do you mean Vampire Nighthawk?
Yes, yes. Vampire Nighthawk is the bane of my existence. Deathhawk. I also don't see counters being that prevalent. And against Bant or U, there really isn't that many creatures that Rancor + Selesnya would be effective. It actually is really effective. And, Rancor is never a dead card (or well, if you have a single creature out) whereas Abrupt Decay may be a dead card sometimes if they don't have a low CMC threat. I'm considering dropping myself down to 6 Elves, 3 Rancor, 1 Entreat the Angels and 2 Vitu-Ghaz instead of 8 Elves and 4 Midnight Haunting... If my math works out.
Which would allow for 3 Abrupt Decays in the SB as an easy switch (from Rancors) when I need to play defensive.
Edit: This may be my strongest list yet. I'll be trying the deck without Midnight Haunting. I may hate it and decide to scrap it, but it hits a few things that I wanted. I wanted Rancor in this deck and I wanted a good populate tool. Trostani may be better but I doubt it, her lifegain is probably only relevant to a few matchups whereas Vitu-Ghazi is a strong late game play that is essentially free tokens. She can also create her own tokens if you topdeck her after a board wipe. Trostani can't. Anyways, here's the deck - sideboard is still a little bit of a mess.
?? Golgari Charm (Mirror Matchup, Jund Control (Sweepers)) ?? Garruk Relentless (1?) (More Removal - combos with Mayor) 2 Rest in Peace (Maybe - Frites, Zombies - Makes us remove Rancor and LS)
I put a Garruk Relentless back in the spot of a Collective Blessing to lower my curve, I may not like it as I do love having 3 Blessings. However, I do have 2 less dorks so I may still be able to cast it regularly. I also have Entreat the Angels in as another high cost finisher so it may not be that bad. Garruk's Sacrifice a creature can also fetch Vitu-Ghazi which is fantastic! It means that you can kill off a dork and find a win-con for the low cost of not making a 1/1 deathtouch wolf and a dork (which may be useless late game to you). Overall, this list has more going for it now. Rancor + Selesnya Charm deal with removal easier. Garruk is removal, Entreat as a finisher (although without card draw I'm hesitant about it - although considering we are a token deck with a populate on a stick now it may be find to hard cast this). Thoughts?
I'm pulling my hairs out right now. Maybe I just need to add more diversity to my opponent's lists... I'm basically going against mirrors and I can't take it. I've played against Bant tokens and I still can't really find anything that particularly shines over the BWG build.
I'm beginning to think that this build—because of the alterations that seem like they'll occur in the meta—leans us more toward a ramp style of token creation. We didn't exactly need it previously because of the size of our bodies, and the cost of our producers, but now I can't help but feel that if we really want to stand out, we need to be able to harvest a massive growth rather quickly.
Hi guys been reading up on this thread and I really like the ideas so far. Just got a quick question, On versions that are running Sorin, Lord of Innistrad how hot are you guys on Bloodline Keeper.
I use to run Junk Tokens before RtR and the Synergy he allows in conjunction with Sorin is really worth looking into. However keep in mind that I had access to Birds of Paradise to help fix mana so to accommodate Bloodline Keeper we would need to commit a bit more to B. Maybe GB splash W?
IF you are hard set on sticking with heavier GW splash B, how about Mayor of Mayor of Avabruck main deck if you are already playing Selesnya Charm and Midnight Haunting.
I'm pulling my hairs out right now. Maybe I just need to add more diversity to my opponent's lists... I'm basically going against mirrors and I can't take it. I've played against Bant tokens and I still can't really find anything that particularly shines over the BWG build.
I'm beginning to think that this build—because of the alterations that seem like they'll occur in the meta—leans us more toward a ramp style of token creation. We didn't exactly need it previously because of the size of our bodies, and the cost of our producers, but now I can't help but feel that if we really want to stand out, we need to be able to harvest a massive growth rather quickly.
Are you saying that you believe Bant tokens are stronger or are running the same idea as us? Bant token's biggest strength is Geist of Saint Traft. Which I feel in this meta won't be as good as he was before. A lot of things can block him now, and he can't be protected by Vapor Snags anymore. The Rootborn Defenses + Geist thing is cute, and it may be strong - but I just don't see it being game ending. Other than that we get access to Sorin, black kill spells and Lingering Souls along with a better mana base (Bant is tricky right now because it wants both Geist on t2 and Conclave on t2) Only thing I can think of is access to Snapcaster + Token generator
Are you saying that we just aren't fast enough? Because from what I've been playing we're decently fast (not as much as zombies) but we can get more forces than a regular GW player.
Hi guys been reading up on this thread and I really like the ideas so far. Just got a quick question, On versions that are running Sorin, Lord of Innistrad how hot are you guys on Bloodline Keeper.
I use to run Junk Tokens before RtR and the Synergy he allows in conjunction with Sorin is really worth looking into. However keep in mind that I had access to Birds of Paradise to help fix mana so to accommodate Bloodline Keeper we would need to commit a bit more to . Maybe splash ?
IF you are hard set on sticking with heavier splash , how about Mayor of Mayor of Avabruck main deck if you are already playing Selesnya Charm and Midnight Haunting.
I feel that we focus so much on the white that dropping a lot of it to add Bloodline Keeper wouldn't be the best thing to do. Although, he is a good card. He might be good when Gatecrash comes out and we get access to the tokens of Orzhov.
Are you saying that you believe Bant tokens are stronger or are running the same idea as us? Bant token's biggest strength is Geist of Saint Traft. Which I feel in this meta won't be as good as he was before. A lot of things can block him now, and he can't be protected by Vapor Snags anymore. The Rootborn Defenses + Geist thing is cute, and it may be strong - but I just don't see it being game ending. Other than that we get access to Sorin, black kill spells and Lingering Souls along with a better mana base (Bant is tricky right now because it wants both Geist on t2 and Conclave on t2)
Are you saying that we just aren't fast enough? Because from what I've been playing we're decently fast (not as much as zombies) but we can get more forces than a regular GW player.
I think I was mainly drawn in by things like Judge's Familiar, which create an artificial sense of being one mana ahead. It sort of felt like whenever I was against it, I really was at a disadvantage, especially when I had no mana dork, but I guess that's just how things are.
I've also been finding a bit less appeal in Call of the Conclave in comparison to Gather the Townsfolk, considering what our ultimate goal is (Collective Blessing), and how things like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's emblem affects multiple bodies. I'm not saying we should ditch Call, but I think it's better suited as a 3 or 2 of, while we should be playing with 4 Gathers. Now, I know Populate has less power on multiple bodies... but... Populate, as I'm sure we're starting to see, is not only scarcely available, but scarcely applicable. Rootborn Defenses is the only thing most of us currently run that has Populate, come to think of it—and it seems like it's more worthwhile for protecting an army, rather than a few.
And, again, I'm not exactly sure what I think of our speed... It may have been Judge's Familiar messing with me, is all. I need to scour the other threads to gather up some diverse decks to test against.
It probably was the Judge's Familiar messing with you. Tax effects like it and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, are killer against tokens. Having to stare down a Thalia and whatever else they have out when you have only two mana and a Call of the Conclave and/or Selesnya Charm in hand is NOT a good feeling, nor does it bode well. I guess BWG tokens has Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm to kill it, but that's still essentially a 3 mana answer.
I've been trying to make Bant tokens work, but I just don't know about it, although it could just be my unfamiliarity with the deck. T2 Geist of Saint Traft is an extremely strong play (and actually not that bad at all with a good manabase and Pilgrim), more so if you can back it up with a T3 Rootborn Defenses or buff with a charm. I was initially drawn to Azorius Charm, but it doesn't actually seem to do much. The bounce is nice, but most of the time I'd rather them not get back the thing I use it on, and the lifegain isn't always what I want to be doing with my mana at the time. Maybe good sideboard against aggro, but I don't know about MD. Then again, I'd need to test more. It feels like every deck I've run into on Cockatrice is Grixis Control. <_<
I actually haven't been running Snapcaster...I was trying to determine if he was necessary or not. Because if you're using him to snap back Midnight Haunting, then why not just run black for Lingering Souls? Still, he might be an advantage. I was also debating trying Talrand, Sky Summoner, but although he'd give more value out of token makers, he seems like he'd encourage overextending, compared to Trostani, who is just card advantage. I might throw up a thread for Bant later so I can work with people better at deckbuilding than me to try and figure this out.
But yeah, if Orzhov is going to bring more token support, then GWB might be the way to go.
EDIT: Also, it might just be me, but it seems every other deck is running lifegain of some kind, if they can. EVERY Green deck runs Thragtusk, many decks with UW are using Sphinx's Revelation, even Black has been using Disciple of Bolas, Vampire Nighthawk, and Blood Artist to pull ahead. I feel like decks need that in order to keep up with everyone else (so for tokens, either Thragtusk or Trostani). I've been using Thragtusk, but Trostani might be better. It's just that Trostani is also slower....
*Sigh*
I certainly hope so... What kind of program or additional code have you guys been running that let's you play with RtR cards in Cockatrice? I've just been having to proxy stuff, really.
Geist of Saint Traft I'm not sure about any which way anymore. He used to be great because he had a decent body, was somewhat hard to deal with (as most would just try to copy him), and because he was inexpensive... But now, it's like... he can be blocked and you'll get in 4 damage. If I want to spend 3 mana for 4 damage, I'll just play Loxodon Smiter. And, that's another thing, a lot of creatures have gotten a lot bigger; so unless you've got something to protect the body of Saint-Traft, he's not worth it. I also see what you mean about Azorius Charm having a bit less potential than I hyped it up to be. I should probably cut it and maybe... I'm not sure. Having removal is necessary for tax brokers like Thalia and Familiar though. Two of Abrupt Decay might be the call there.
Talrand, Sky Summoner's not a very good card, either. For us he especially entices overextension, but even with SoM in standard, he was only played because he could be dropped on turn 4, and then be popping out drakes thanks to Phyrexian mana spells.
I really do hope we get some Orzhov business in Gatecrash, I'd hate to see that we have to wait for the final set for them...
Anyway, when I get home, I'll try the deck out with a pair of Trostani, Voice of Selesyna rather than the two Call of the Conclave, and I'll replace my A.Charms with Abrupt Decays. Hopefully things turn out a bit better. Hopefully Trostani can stay on board, she may be a bit slower, but she's got an incredible body (they, technically), and can stall out matches far later than an immediate Thragtusk, if left for even two turns.
Edit: Also, if anyone playing on Cockatrice, or really, anyone here has some decklists of their opponents, could you possibly PM them to me? Any real variety, or matches that seem pretty tight. I'd appreciate it, thank you.
Double-Edit: I don't have A.Charms in my deck at the moment. What am I thinking of?
I have one problem with Bant right now. The manabase. Here's the problem with Bant, is that you are trying to get extreme colour restrictions on the early turns and the current mana base doesn't allow for it - I'll explain why. Now, a good bant list will run 6-8 dorks, so we have at least G mana for turn one (the best you can do is GW). Now, if we have Pilgrim on the field we desperately need a source of blue on t2 to be able to do the best play that we have available getting us G/W, W, U for Geist of Saint Traft. Now, let's say we have an Arbor elf instead of a Pilgrim. The only legal target that Arbor Elf has is Forests and Temple Garden. Without the Simic land arbor elf is for the most part an awful card. Most bant lists are excluding it because of how many times it can't be tapped for mana, which proves to me that Bant lists are going to either be A) too greedy with their mana base or B) Aren't going to be consistent in their early turns (the few reasons to run Bant over Junk).
We have access to Judge's Familiar as well if we want it. We normally have a good access of white mana so the hybrid mana is not that big of a deal. However, Judge's Familiar is only really good against token decks anyways... Creature heavy zombies won't care, Jund Control will wait a turn, UW Control will say 'thanks for the useless card while I TT again', Jund Zombies is still really damn creature heavy. The only reasons I can see to go Bant is A) Snapcaster Mage B) Cackling Counterpart and C) Geist + Rootborn (But in all honesty... Wouldn't you rather save your rootborn for the sweep?)
I'll post my findings of my current iteration of my deck in a bit - have to run to class.
i very well know my list needs to be update come 10/5 when RtR hits. this list as is has been very consistent for me, and has gotten me top 8 at Game days (losing to a very very fast GW humans build).
When rotation hits i have been looking at Adjusting the land base and maybe even including the selesnya Keyrune and/or the Golgari Keyrune to help ramp, and then maybe making the parrallel move from Garruk Relentless and 1 less Sorin, lord of innistrad to include 3 Growing Ranks, and possibly using a playset of Judge' Familiar instead of replacing HotP with another anthem to include some much needed disruption early game. other possible removal replacements could be Abrupt Decay or Ultimate Price
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(O_o) .....the face I made the moment I realized that deep down.... I am a mill deck player.
If we were to focus more on ramping into powerful tokens and effects, might we be able to consider Craterhoof Behemoth as a true finisher? It's certainly a powerful creature, although it was considered "too slow" in the previous meta to see much any play. I'll continue to test with my ideal of quantity over quality, and see how things roll out...
Edit: Of course, I should try to get one somewhat comfortable build used first. *Sigh* Still pullin' out my hair, here.
If we were to focus more on ramping into powerful tokens and effects, might we be able to consider Craterhoof Behemoth as a true finisher? It's certainly a powerful creature, although it was considered "too slow" in the previous meta to see much any play. I'll continue to test with my ideal of quantity over quality, and see how things roll out...
Edit: Of course, I should try to get one somewhat comfortable build used first. *Sigh* Still pullin' out my hair, here.
Long day. Anyways, I forgot what I was going to say so I'll just discuss what's going on in the thread. I very much dislike Craterhoof Behemoth in this deck. What you are trying for is too cute simply. We aren't going to get the mana to use that card without cheating it onto the field. I would suggest to look no higher than 6 CMC (and even that is pushing it with Collective Blessing). What I would do is if you are trying to take a look at a list is analyze each card whenever you draw it compared to what you'd like to test and ask "Is this the card I wanted now, or is this useless whenever I draw it". For example, last night I drew a few rancors after a sweeper and cried because it lost me the game. (I also had to mull to 3... so take that as you will!)
I really dislike the Bant list that I've been able to craft in my head. I guess mine wasn't really a token list as more of an ETB list with Crackling Counter + Populate (How I wish a land had populate).
@Wiggles
I'd try out Judge's Familiar. Personally, I'm not a big fan of it as it doesn't seem to actually do much for us in this deck, as we aren't trying to play a tempo game. But, you never know - I may be 100% wrong. However, after testing Growing Ranks I was disappointed in it... It would be so playable if it populated when it came into play, but sadly it doesn't. You have to wait an entire turn for that (and if you haven't ramped you are in the turns where you do not want to be tapping out). Turn four against any UW deck I always save three mana, no matter what. They have a Supreme Verdict - every freaking game. Always. (However, the feeling of Rootborn Defenses on a Verdict is absolutly wonderful! Oh, you just time-walked yourself and gave me a token! AWESOME!)
Oh, I remember what I was going to say. I found the card that I love in this deck. At first I thought she was slow and that she wasn't worth it. But, after play testing a few games I fell in love with my Guild Leader! Oh, she's only a guild mage? VITU-GHAZI FOR GUILD LEADER! Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage is absolutely fantastic. She's the best late game drop I can think of. Turn 6 She reads, Put a 2/2 bear on the field and then at the end of their turn Populate. Or, if you draw her after a sweeper she can pop centaurs out of no where. She's fantastic. Also, she's a great three drop (or if you are ever mana stuck). The fact that she's cheap GW and that she has two relevant abilities are amazing. Against UW Control (and American Control) I would throw her out after a sweeper and just let her pump out populate'd Call of the Conclaves or her own Centaurs while holding onto a hand of token generators. She's essentially a mana-invested planeswalker with no ultimate. She can do so much. I was thinking of adding two Mayor of Avabruck's to deal with control in my sideboard, but I'm thinking of going 2MB 2SB just because of how much raw card advantage she can be. I love this card, and I would highly suggest people to try it out over Trostanti. Trostani may be relevant with the lifegain against certain decks - but not MB worthy (in my eyes at least). You may want to swap out Vitu-Ghazi against Zombies for Trostani - but that's all I can think about.
Oh, I forgot. I hate Arbor Elf. She's nothing but useless! I can't tell you how many times I had to Mull because I'd have an Arbor Elf instead of a useful card in my opening hand (as in - she'd only tap for G when I need white or she couldn't tap anything at all - (Plains, Sunpetal Grove I'm looking at you!)). I'm probably going to replace her and go down to 4 ramp elves, because she's always useless whenever I draw her... Stupid card /angry
I'm still kind of amazed you never end up with 1 of 8 applicable dual lands for Arbor Elf at early point. ' . '
I'm going to begin testing with Trostani and the other nonsense I was spurting earlier, so I should have results by the end of the day, if not sometime tomorrow. I'll also heavily try to avoid Craterhoof and company. I'm probably just fretting too much.
Oh, I forgot. I hate Arbor Elf. She's nothing but useless! I can't tell you how many times I had to Mull because I'd have an Arbor Elf instead of a useful card in my opening hand (as in - she'd only tap for G when I need white or she couldn't tap anything at all - (Plains, Sunpetal Grove I'm looking at you!)). I'm probably going to replace her and go down to 4 ramp elves, because she's always useless whenever I draw her... Stupid card /angry
Really?!? I figured that with the shock lands Arbor Elf would be better than Avacyn's Pilgrim due to the fact that with the 2 shock lands(Temple Garden & Overgrown Tomb) in our colors you'd essentially have 8 cards + Basic Forests that you could use her with and end up with any color you'd need.
Really?!? I figured that with the shock lands Arbor Elf would be better than Avacyn's Pilgrim due to the fact that with the 2 shock lands(Temple Garden & Overgrown Tomb) in our colors you'd essentially have 8 cards + Basic Forests that you could use her with and end up with any color you'd need.
All I can say is, this game hates me. Arbor Elf is always drawn when I need her least or when I need her most and can't use her effectively. Also, since I dropped more three drops in favour (aka Midnight Haunting, multiple 4 drops and the like) I've found that ramping into 3 on t2 is sometimes not even needed. I mean, half the time it's wasted because I'll call of the conclave instead of Lingering Souls. It helps our later turns and eventually they turn into threats (like the 8/8 Priest I had a few days ago) but overall I may consider just running the 4 Priests and no Elves in favour of Rancors/Vitu-Ghavi/and either 2 Golgari Charms main board, 2 Tragic Slips, 2 Abrupt Decays or 2 Deathrite Shamans MB. I miss Beast Within though. I may even consider Oblivion Ring, but I feel it won't be that important in this format (with Decay and Golgari Charm).
Just posted a primer in the developing decks forum.
Was planning on creating one once the set was officially released on Gatherer. I'm not sure if they are allowing New Decks over their yet. I'd double check with a mod first.
"Discussion of spoiled cards must be confined to the Standard New Card Discussion subforum. New sets are okay to discuss in the rest of the Standard forum the moment Wizards has published the entire spoiler. Post-rotation discussion is also not permitted until the new block has been fully spoiled."
Was planning on creating one once the set was officially released on Gatherer. I'm not sure if they are allowing New Decks over their yet. I'd double check with a mod first.
"Discussion of spoiled cards must be confined to the Standard New Card Discussion subforum. New sets are okay to discuss in the rest of the Standard forum the moment Wizards has published the entire spoiler. Post-rotation discussion is also not permitted until the new block has been fully spoiled."
Just as a warning.
Dont worry, the full set is officially spoiled now, so the discussion is allowed. Btw, this is my first primer, so I would appreciate any advice on the format as well as the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Fail. Fail More. Fail Better."
"Failure is the road to success."
My Current Decks:
Standard T2:
:symw::symwb: B/W Tokens :symbw::symb:
:symu::symbu: B/U Control + Fliers :symub::symb:
Standard T1:
:symr::symw::symb: R/B/W Vampires :symb::symw::symr:
Dont worry, the full set is officially spoiled now, so the discussion is allowed. Btw, this is my first primer, so I would appreciate any advice on the format as well as the deck.
I thought it was just spoiled, but not by wizards. Either way. I'll comment on it tomorrow I'm not using the list you posted anymore. I'll provide you with a current one.
Just read through this and the primer and I just wanted to put my thoughts in on the discussion. As someone who has played BW tokens since DA I have to say I love the potential here. When the spoiler season started I was on the fence on whether I wanted to play GW or GB. Eventually after seeing just how good both sides where I said screw it, I’ll have my cake and eat it. Here is the deck list I just put together to work on. Like everyone else this is a big work in progress for me. I’m happy with how some things look here and unhappy about others. So of course commentary is welcome.
I guess one of my biggest question is the what on creatures. Lingering souls is a no brainer. I know there is a big debate but I am not a fan of midnight haunting so I wont run it. With the amount of mana dorks in here though I feel we can really ramp up into bigger things. Use the tokens for the beginning to mid game and finish up with things like Armada Wurm and Thragtusk. For me it is a matter of finding room. If I don’t go with the big guys then I want to pull a couple mana dorks our for Doomed Traveler or another card.
Another question I’m having is the planes walker balance. I have always like Sorin, and I think he is a powerhouse. With that said Relentless feels like a no brainer and I really like the looks of Vraska. For me it’s a question of how many in main and how many in the sideboard for each.
There is just so many things I want to find room for in here and I’m just not sure what should get the cut. Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"No matter how many I kill, there are always more to hunt. It makes me smile just to think about it."
-Elite Inquisitor
Just read through this and the primer and I just wanted to put my thoughts in on the discussion. As someone who has played BW tokens since DA I have to say I love the potential here. When the spoiler season started I was on the fence on whether I wanted to play GW or GB. Eventually after seeing just how good both sides where I said screw it, I’ll have my cake and eat it. Here is the deck list I just put together to work on. Like everyone else this is a big work in progress for me. I’m happy with how some things look here and unhappy about others. So of course commentary is welcome.
I guess one of my biggest question is the what on creatures. Lingering souls is a no brainer. I know there is a big debate but I am not a fan of midnight haunting so I wont run it. With the amount of mana dorks in here though I feel we can really ramp up into bigger things. Use the tokens for the beginning to mid game and finish up with things like Armada Wurm and Thragtusk. For me it is a matter of finding room. If I don’t go with the big guys then I want to pull a couple mana dorks our for Doomed Traveler or another card.
Another question I’m having is the planes walker balance. I have always like Sorin, and I think he is a powerhouse. With that said Relentless feels like a no brainer and I really like the looks of Vraska. For me it’s a question of how many in main and how many in the sideboard for each.
There is just so many things I want to find room for in here and I’m just not sure what should get the cut. Thoughts?
Out of everything Selesnya Charm should be a an auto-4 of. An instant speed 2/2 Knight Vigilance token is good enough, followed by two other choices (One being decent removal - especially combined with Rancor) it is just an easy choice. Another thing I like is Conclave. A 3/3 for 2 is really ahead of the curve, even if it is just a vanilla. I'd go up to at least 3, but probably 4. That's my opinion. I'd also really test out Collective Blessing for your own research. It's strong. I'd say stronger than Armada Wurm - but that's me. Especially with Dorks.
You are probably right about the Wurm.. it just seems too good to leave out, but it probably fits in a different deck better. The point of adding the Angel was to blink the Wurm and get another token and gain 10 life with Trostani, but like we both said, its probably a different deck strategy.
If I take out the Wurm I would put Champion of Lambholt back in, cause I like that card in this deck. Don't know how to squeeze Rancor in, its a really good card.
And yeah i probably need a couple more black sources like Isolated Chapel if i can get my hands on some.
Armada Wurm, as appealing as it is, truly is better suited for a deck that has focus on creature card, not the creature token.
Edit: Oh, someone already stated this.
If you bounce Trostani with Restoration Angel you actually only gain the 4 life from the angel entering the field; Trostani reads "other creatures."
Edit: I also misread this, but either way, you shouldn't be leaving yourself in such an extend position.
Also, if it's between A.Wurm and Lambholt, you should add Rancor instead. A creature bounced loses his life, not Rancor, but a Lambholt bounced loses all worth.
Of all the cards I find producing the most tokens that stick for me, it's between Call of the Conclave, Lingering Souls, and Selesyna Charm. It should be noted, however, that I've been practicing mainly against a deck that scarcely has single creatures with more than 5 power, in range of Selesyna Charm's exile ability. However, this may also be a reason for my so far somewhat biased judgement of Abrupt Decay—where I'm able to save valuables from an Oblivion Ring / getting two-fers against Silverblade Paladin.
Additionally, in this current meta ( although it will likely change ) where life gain is absolutely valuable, I find things like Gavony Township slightly less appealing than Vault of the Archangel; which is reason for my singleton of the former, and testing of Grove of the Guardian. ( Which, might I add, has won me all but one game he's awoken. Even without any kind of towering ability, you'd be amazed at how game altering a tremendous blocker and possibly 8 life is—let alone two, or three! )
Ahem. Well, stepping more into the realm of Abrupt Decay's worth, I find that we're at an incredibly well seated position to deal with whatever might come our way in the opening match. Selesyna Charm protects us on the overbearing and all powerful side, while Abrupt Decay has us on the lower side. As I've said, my testing is not extremely deep at this point—only about 15 matches against a technically illegal GW Human deck ( forgot to remove Hero of Bladehold )—but the combination of Decay and S.Charm leaves me in a comfortable removal position.
My 3/3 split on Arbor Elf and Avacyn's Pilgrim feels like a nice and effective mix, as well. I believe I've stated before that I usually find myself White flooded ( of course, that could simply be thanks to Cockatrice's somewhat faulty shuffling system ), and being able to make additional or hurtless use of the shocklands really helps me out. I've never had a problem getting Trostani, Voice of Selesyna out when I drew her, but it's really just a matter of that; drawing her. I've only gotten her out twice: once was three or four turns too late, and my field was long since barren; and the other time didn't matter, because my opponent's field was barren. So, it's really a matter of more testing. She holds incredible appeal, and really makes that Grove of the Guardian worth risking, if for nothing more than 8 life.
Umm... I think that's about it, for now. Feel free to ask more questions.
You may be right with the idea that we don't need Midnight Haunting. The 2 1/1s while good at instant speed aren't fantastic overall. There are two reasons I like them, 1) They avoid obvious t4 sweepers in case I don't have a Rootborn Defense in hand, being instant means you can simply just hold on to the card to dodge the sweep and then swing in for 2, 4 (or 8 with respective blessings) which is always nice. However, if losing the Haunting means that we can add cards to help deal with our opponent - it may be worth it.
I did try Grove of the Guardian, and it was a fantastic card I found. I really, really liked it and one most of the games that I activated it. However, I was finding myself black short (especially after adding in Sorin or Abrupt Decay) so I had to cut it for more black mana sources. If I can find a way to add it back in, I will - but with 2 Townships (a dominating card against sweepers - with CB on the field + 1 township activation makes you safe from M.Mortar), 1 Vault (been decent but not better than Township) and 2 Groves it was hard to hit mana consistently.
I'm starting to think Vitu-Ghaz has a place in this deck, even if as a 6 drop. Or a bad three drop if we don't have anything else to play. Maybe I'm biased in testing Trostani - I'll throw her into my sideboard for now against Zombies. Maybe she'll prove herself MB worthy.
My only problem with Abrupt Decay is that it misses cards that really hurt us (excluding Deathhawk). It misses, Sublime Angel, Thragtusk, Huntmaster (non-flipped, but if he's flipped he's paid his worth), Olivia, Aristocrat, Restoration Angel and other cards I'm missing out on right now. I guess I have this choice in front of me - would I rather run 2-3 Rancor + 4 Selesnya Charm to act as a form of removal (everything over 3 power dies - stupid Deathhawk) or not have Rancor and run Abrupt Decay. I'm considering running Rancor MB and Abrupt sideboard... I'm not worried about enemy enchantments because Sundering Growth is the best card evar.
I haven't tested against any other GW Human or Selesnya player though... I'm the only one in my area that I know, so it may be relevant mainboard. It is a very versatile card. I just have to consider if it's better than Haunting.
I can ramble as well!
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Give it a go. I haven't really missed Haunting, and I sincerely doubt you will. I guess you could argue that a top decked Rootborn Defense after a sweep is worse than a Midnight Haunting, but that's essentially the worst case scenario: empty / dead hand, no enchantments, no Planeswalkers.
I'll have to test out Vitu-Guildmage myself soon, he certainly holds potential. In a stale, drawn-out game, he's certainly got more value than Trostani. Come to think of it... he might just have more potential over all... Kind of sad that he could possibly put his guild leader to shame.
I'd also been considering the Rancor + Selesyna Charm gimmick, and... honestly... I think it might be more than a simple gimmick. Adding Trample really can be all the boost you need... especially with an active Guardian. More over, it—on paper—seems like a more optimal effect and set of options for this deck type. You're technically only losing one card... although, you should heed which colors you play against, lest your opponent knows you're going for it, and plans to counter the charm...
Edit: I've been calling it "Defense" all this time. It's "Rootborn Defenses."
By the way, what the heck is a Deathhawk? Do you mean Vampire Nighthawk?
Yes, yes. Vampire Nighthawk is the bane of my existence. Deathhawk. I also don't see counters being that prevalent. And against Bant or U, there really isn't that many creatures that Rancor + Selesnya would be effective. It actually is really effective. And, Rancor is never a dead card (or well, if you have a single creature out) whereas Abrupt Decay may be a dead card sometimes if they don't have a low CMC threat. I'm considering dropping myself down to 6 Elves, 3 Rancor, 1 Entreat the Angels and 2 Vitu-Ghaz instead of 8 Elves and 4 Midnight Haunting... If my math works out.
Which would allow for 3 Abrupt Decays in the SB as an easy switch (from Rancors) when I need to play defensive.
Edit: This may be my strongest list yet. I'll be trying the deck without Midnight Haunting. I may hate it and decide to scrap it, but it hits a few things that I wanted. I wanted Rancor in this deck and I wanted a good populate tool. Trostani may be better but I doubt it, her lifegain is probably only relevant to a few matchups whereas Vitu-Ghazi is a strong late game play that is essentially free tokens. She can also create her own tokens if you topdeck her after a board wipe. Trostani can't. Anyways, here's the deck - sideboard is still a little bit of a mess.
2x Arbor Elf
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
2x Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Instant (7)
3x Rootborn Defenses
4x Selesnya Charm
Sorcery (9)
4x Call of the Conclave
1x Entreat the Angels
4x Lingering Souls
Enchantment (9)
2x Collective Blessing
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Rancor
Planeswalker (3)
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
2x Isolated Chapel
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Plains
4x Sunpetal Grove
1x Swamp
4x Temple Garden
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Woodland Cemetery
2x Druid's Deliverance (Possibly - GB Zombies)
2x Mayor of Avabruck (UW Control, American Control)
2x Terminus (Zombies, Mirror Matchup)
3x Abrupt Decay (Not sure yet)
2x Trostani, Selesnya's Voice (Zombies, Control, Burn)
2x Deathrite Shaman (Zombies, Frites, Snapcaster)
?? Garruk Relentless (1?) (More Removal - combos with Mayor)
2 Rest in Peace (Maybe - Frites, Zombies - Makes us remove Rancor and LS)
I put a Garruk Relentless back in the spot of a Collective Blessing to lower my curve, I may not like it as I do love having 3 Blessings. However, I do have 2 less dorks so I may still be able to cast it regularly. I also have Entreat the Angels in as another high cost finisher so it may not be that bad. Garruk's Sacrifice a creature can also fetch Vitu-Ghazi which is fantastic! It means that you can kill off a dork and find a win-con for the low cost of not making a 1/1 deathtouch wolf and a dork (which may be useless late game to you). Overall, this list has more going for it now. Rancor + Selesnya Charm deal with removal easier. Garruk is removal, Entreat as a finisher (although without card draw I'm hesitant about it - although considering we are a token deck with a populate on a stick now it may be find to hard cast this). Thoughts?
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I'm beginning to think that this build—because of the alterations that seem like they'll occur in the meta—leans us more toward a ramp style of token creation. We didn't exactly need it previously because of the size of our bodies, and the cost of our producers, but now I can't help but feel that if we really want to stand out, we need to be able to harvest a massive growth rather quickly.
I use to run Junk Tokens before RtR and the Synergy he allows in conjunction with Sorin is really worth looking into. However keep in mind that I had access to Birds of Paradise to help fix mana so to accommodate Bloodline Keeper we would need to commit a bit more to B. Maybe GB splash W?
IF you are hard set on sticking with heavier GW splash B, how about Mayor of Mayor of Avabruck main deck if you are already playing Selesnya Charm and Midnight Haunting.
T2
Commander
WGCaptain SisayWG
Are you saying that you believe Bant tokens are stronger or are running the same idea as us? Bant token's biggest strength is Geist of Saint Traft. Which I feel in this meta won't be as good as he was before. A lot of things can block him now, and he can't be protected by Vapor Snags anymore. The Rootborn Defenses + Geist thing is cute, and it may be strong - but I just don't see it being game ending. Other than that we get access to Sorin, black kill spells and Lingering Souls along with a better mana base (Bant is tricky right now because it wants both Geist on t2 and Conclave on t2) Only thing I can think of is access to Snapcaster + Token generator
Are you saying that we just aren't fast enough? Because from what I've been playing we're decently fast (not as much as zombies) but we can get more forces than a regular GW player.
I feel that we focus so much on the white that dropping a lot of it to add Bloodline Keeper wouldn't be the best thing to do. Although, he is a good card. He might be good when Gatecrash comes out and we get access to the tokens of Orzhov.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I think I was mainly drawn in by things like Judge's Familiar, which create an artificial sense of being one mana ahead. It sort of felt like whenever I was against it, I really was at a disadvantage, especially when I had no mana dork, but I guess that's just how things are.
I've also been finding a bit less appeal in Call of the Conclave in comparison to Gather the Townsfolk, considering what our ultimate goal is (Collective Blessing), and how things like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's emblem affects multiple bodies. I'm not saying we should ditch Call, but I think it's better suited as a 3 or 2 of, while we should be playing with 4 Gathers. Now, I know Populate has less power on multiple bodies... but... Populate, as I'm sure we're starting to see, is not only scarcely available, but scarcely applicable. Rootborn Defenses is the only thing most of us currently run that has Populate, come to think of it—and it seems like it's more worthwhile for protecting an army, rather than a few.
And, again, I'm not exactly sure what I think of our speed... It may have been Judge's Familiar messing with me, is all. I need to scour the other threads to gather up some diverse decks to test against.
I've been trying to make Bant tokens work, but I just don't know about it, although it could just be my unfamiliarity with the deck. T2 Geist of Saint Traft is an extremely strong play (and actually not that bad at all with a good manabase and Pilgrim), more so if you can back it up with a T3 Rootborn Defenses or buff with a charm. I was initially drawn to Azorius Charm, but it doesn't actually seem to do much. The bounce is nice, but most of the time I'd rather them not get back the thing I use it on, and the lifegain isn't always what I want to be doing with my mana at the time. Maybe good sideboard against aggro, but I don't know about MD. Then again, I'd need to test more. It feels like every deck I've run into on Cockatrice is Grixis Control. <_<
I actually haven't been running Snapcaster...I was trying to determine if he was necessary or not. Because if you're using him to snap back Midnight Haunting, then why not just run black for Lingering Souls? Still, he might be an advantage. I was also debating trying Talrand, Sky Summoner, but although he'd give more value out of token makers, he seems like he'd encourage overextending, compared to Trostani, who is just card advantage. I might throw up a thread for Bant later so I can work with people better at deckbuilding than me to try and figure this out.
But yeah, if Orzhov is going to bring more token support, then GWB might be the way to go.
EDIT: Also, it might just be me, but it seems every other deck is running lifegain of some kind, if they can. EVERY Green deck runs Thragtusk, many decks with UW are using Sphinx's Revelation, even Black has been using Disciple of Bolas, Vampire Nighthawk, and Blood Artist to pull ahead. I feel like decks need that in order to keep up with everyone else (so for tokens, either Thragtusk or Trostani). I've been using Thragtusk, but Trostani might be better. It's just that Trostani is also slower....
I certainly hope so... What kind of program or additional code have you guys been running that let's you play with RtR cards in Cockatrice? I've just been having to proxy stuff, really.
Geist of Saint Traft I'm not sure about any which way anymore. He used to be great because he had a decent body, was somewhat hard to deal with (as most would just try to copy him), and because he was inexpensive... But now, it's like... he can be blocked and you'll get in 4 damage. If I want to spend 3 mana for 4 damage, I'll just play Loxodon Smiter. And, that's another thing, a lot of creatures have gotten a lot bigger; so unless you've got something to protect the body of Saint-Traft, he's not worth it. I also see what you mean about Azorius Charm having a bit less potential than I hyped it up to be. I should probably cut it and maybe... I'm not sure. Having removal is necessary for tax brokers like Thalia and Familiar though. Two of Abrupt Decay might be the call there.
Talrand, Sky Summoner's not a very good card, either. For us he especially entices overextension, but even with SoM in standard, he was only played because he could be dropped on turn 4, and then be popping out drakes thanks to Phyrexian mana spells.
I really do hope we get some Orzhov business in Gatecrash, I'd hate to see that we have to wait for the final set for them...
Anyway, when I get home, I'll try the deck out with a pair of Trostani, Voice of Selesyna rather than the two Call of the Conclave, and I'll replace my A.Charms with Abrupt Decays. Hopefully things turn out a bit better. Hopefully Trostani can stay on board, she may be a bit slower, but she's got an incredible body (they, technically), and can stall out matches far later than an immediate Thragtusk, if left for even two turns.
Edit: Also, if anyone playing on Cockatrice, or really, anyone here has some decklists of their opponents, could you possibly PM them to me? Any real variety, or matches that seem pretty tight. I'd appreciate it, thank you.
Double-Edit: I don't have A.Charms in my deck at the moment. What am I thinking of?
We have access to Judge's Familiar as well if we want it. We normally have a good access of white mana so the hybrid mana is not that big of a deal. However, Judge's Familiar is only really good against token decks anyways... Creature heavy zombies won't care, Jund Control will wait a turn, UW Control will say 'thanks for the useless card while I TT again', Jund Zombies is still really damn creature heavy. The only reasons I can see to go Bant is A) Snapcaster Mage B) Cackling Counterpart and C) Geist + Rootborn (But in all honesty... Wouldn't you rather save your rootborn for the sweep?)
I'll post my findings of my current iteration of my deck in a bit - have to run to class.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
3 forest
7 plains
2 swamp
2 isolated chapel
4 sunpetal grove
2 woodland cemetary
3 vault of the archangel
creatures 7
4 attended knight
3 doomed traveler
3 sorin, lord of innistrad
2 garruk relentless
1 ajani, caller of the pride
instants 7
4 midnight haunting
3 go for the throat
sorceries 7
4 lingering souls
3 gather the townsfolk
enchantments 10
4 intangible virtue
4 honor of the pure
2 oblivion ring
2 day of judgement
2 divine deflection
1 entreat the angels
1 naturalize
2 nevermore
2 oblivion ring
1 ray of revelation
1 stony silence
2 timely reinforcements
1 white sun's zenith
i very well know my list needs to be update come 10/5 when RtR hits. this list as is has been very consistent for me, and has gotten me top 8 at Game days (losing to a very very fast GW humans build).
When rotation hits i have been looking at Adjusting the land base and maybe even including the selesnya Keyrune and/or the Golgari Keyrune to help ramp, and then maybe making the parrallel move from Garruk Relentless and 1 less Sorin, lord of innistrad to include 3 Growing Ranks, and possibly using a playset of Judge' Familiar instead of replacing HotP with another anthem to include some much needed disruption early game. other possible removal replacements could be Abrupt Decay or Ultimate Price
Edit: Of course, I should try to get one somewhat comfortable build used first. *Sigh* Still pullin' out my hair, here.
I don't think Craterhoof Behemoth fits in a token deck. If u want to ramp into something Collective Blessing seems like a better idea.
A G/W ramp/blink deck might make good use of it though. Using Cloudshift on it seems pretty good. lol
I really dislike the Bant list that I've been able to craft in my head. I guess mine wasn't really a token list as more of an ETB list with Crackling Counter + Populate (How I wish a land had populate).
@Wiggles
I'd try out Judge's Familiar. Personally, I'm not a big fan of it as it doesn't seem to actually do much for us in this deck, as we aren't trying to play a tempo game. But, you never know - I may be 100% wrong. However, after testing Growing Ranks I was disappointed in it... It would be so playable if it populated when it came into play, but sadly it doesn't. You have to wait an entire turn for that (and if you haven't ramped you are in the turns where you do not want to be tapping out). Turn four against any UW deck I always save three mana, no matter what. They have a Supreme Verdict - every freaking game. Always. (However, the feeling of Rootborn Defenses on a Verdict is absolutly wonderful! Oh, you just time-walked yourself and gave me a token! AWESOME!)
Oh, I remember what I was going to say. I found the card that I love in this deck. At first I thought she was slow and that she wasn't worth it. But, after play testing a few games I fell in love with my Guild Leader! Oh, she's only a guild mage? VITU-GHAZI FOR GUILD LEADER! Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage is absolutely fantastic. She's the best late game drop I can think of. Turn 6 She reads, Put a 2/2 bear on the field and then at the end of their turn Populate. Or, if you draw her after a sweeper she can pop centaurs out of no where. She's fantastic. Also, she's a great three drop (or if you are ever mana stuck). The fact that she's cheap GW and that she has two relevant abilities are amazing. Against UW Control (and American Control) I would throw her out after a sweeper and just let her pump out populate'd Call of the Conclaves or her own Centaurs while holding onto a hand of token generators. She's essentially a mana-invested planeswalker with no ultimate. She can do so much. I was thinking of adding two Mayor of Avabruck's to deal with control in my sideboard, but I'm thinking of going 2MB 2SB just because of how much raw card advantage she can be. I love this card, and I would highly suggest people to try it out over Trostanti. Trostani may be relevant with the lifegain against certain decks - but not MB worthy (in my eyes at least). You may want to swap out Vitu-Ghazi against Zombies for Trostani - but that's all I can think about.
Oh, I forgot. I hate Arbor Elf. She's nothing but useless! I can't tell you how many times I had to Mull because I'd have an Arbor Elf instead of a useful card in my opening hand (as in - she'd only tap for G when I need white or she couldn't tap anything at all - (Plains, Sunpetal Grove I'm looking at you!)). I'm probably going to replace her and go down to 4 ramp elves, because she's always useless whenever I draw her... Stupid card /angry
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
I'm going to begin testing with Trostani and the other nonsense I was spurting earlier, so I should have results by the end of the day, if not sometime tomorrow. I'll also heavily try to avoid Craterhoof and company. I'm probably just fretting too much.
Really?!? I figured that with the shock lands Arbor Elf would be better than Avacyn's Pilgrim due to the fact that with the 2 shock lands(Temple Garden & Overgrown Tomb) in our colors you'd essentially have 8 cards + Basic Forests that you could use her with and end up with any color you'd need.
All I can say is, this game hates me. Arbor Elf is always drawn when I need her least or when I need her most and can't use her effectively. Also, since I dropped more three drops in favour (aka Midnight Haunting, multiple 4 drops and the like) I've found that ramping into 3 on t2 is sometimes not even needed. I mean, half the time it's wasted because I'll call of the conclave instead of Lingering Souls. It helps our later turns and eventually they turn into threats (like the 8/8 Priest I had a few days ago) but overall I may consider just running the 4 Priests and no Elves in favour of Rancors/Vitu-Ghavi/and either 2 Golgari Charms main board, 2 Tragic Slips, 2 Abrupt Decays or 2 Deathrite Shamans MB. I miss Beast Within though. I may even consider Oblivion Ring, but I feel it won't be that important in this format (with Decay and Golgari Charm).
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
"Failure is the road to success."
My Current Decks:
:symw::symwb: B/W Tokens :symbw::symb:
:symu::symbu: B/U Control + Fliers :symub::symb:
Standard T1:
:symr::symw::symb: R/B/W Vampires :symb::symw::symr:
Modern:
:symr::snow::symr: Mono-Red Goblins :symr::snow::symr:
Everything Pauper:
Naya Nacatl Aggro
GENERATION 14: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
Was planning on creating one once the set was officially released on Gatherer. I'm not sure if they are allowing New Decks over their yet. I'd double check with a mod first.
"Discussion of spoiled cards must be confined to the Standard New Card Discussion subforum. New sets are okay to discuss in the rest of the Standard forum the moment Wizards has published the entire spoiler. Post-rotation discussion is also not permitted until the new block has been fully spoiled."
Just as a warning.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
Dont worry, the full set is officially spoiled now, so the discussion is allowed. Btw, this is my first primer, so I would appreciate any advice on the format as well as the deck.
"Failure is the road to success."
My Current Decks:
:symw::symwb: B/W Tokens :symbw::symb:
:symu::symbu: B/U Control + Fliers :symub::symb:
Standard T1:
:symr::symw::symb: R/B/W Vampires :symb::symw::symr:
Modern:
:symr::snow::symr: Mono-Red Goblins :symr::snow::symr:
Everything Pauper:
Naya Nacatl Aggro
GENERATION 14: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig and add 1 to the generation. social experiment.
I thought it was just spoiled, but not by wizards. Either way. I'll comment on it tomorrow I'm not using the list you posted anymore. I'll provide you with a current one.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim 1cc
4 Arbor Elf 1cc
1 Armada Wurm
Instants: 4
2 Selesnya Charm 2cc
2 Abrupt Decay 2cc
Sorceries: 8
4 Lingering Souls 3cc
2 Call of the Conclave 2cc
2 Entreat the Angels Xcc
Planeswalkers: 4
1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad 4cc
2 Garruk Relentless 4cc
1 Vraska the Unseen 5cc
Enchantments: 11
3 Rancor 1cc
2 Collective Blessing 6cc
4 Intangible Virtue 2cc
2 Oblivion Ring 3cc
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Gavony Township
2 Vault of the Archangel
2 Sundering Growth 2cc
2 Rootbond Defenses 3cc
2 Tragic Slip 1cc
2 Terminus
2 Blood Artist 2cc
2 Odric, Master Tactician 4cc
2 Golgari Charm 2cc
1 Vraska the Unseen 5cc
I guess one of my biggest question is the what on creatures. Lingering souls is a no brainer. I know there is a big debate but I am not a fan of midnight haunting so I wont run it. With the amount of mana dorks in here though I feel we can really ramp up into bigger things. Use the tokens for the beginning to mid game and finish up with things like Armada Wurm and Thragtusk. For me it is a matter of finding room. If I don’t go with the big guys then I want to pull a couple mana dorks our for Doomed Traveler or another card.
Another question I’m having is the planes walker balance. I have always like Sorin, and I think he is a powerhouse. With that said Relentless feels like a no brainer and I really like the looks of Vraska. For me it’s a question of how many in main and how many in the sideboard for each.
There is just so many things I want to find room for in here and I’m just not sure what should get the cut. Thoughts?
-Elite Inquisitor
Out of everything Selesnya Charm should be a an auto-4 of. An instant speed 2/2 Knight Vigilance token is good enough, followed by two other choices (One being decent removal - especially combined with Rancor) it is just an easy choice. Another thing I like is Conclave. A 3/3 for 2 is really ahead of the curve, even if it is just a vanilla. I'd go up to at least 3, but probably 4. That's my opinion. I'd also really test out Collective Blessing for your own research. It's strong. I'd say stronger than Armada Wurm - but that's me. Especially with Dorks.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue