It looks like B/R Heartless got a nice present with the new Hellkite that makes 6/6 dragons each time it attacks. Costs 6RR normally. Hellkite + Clone effects would be a lot of fun to pull off. Too bad Mimic Vat won't be around for it.
I'm def not sold on that Dragon. 8 manas is A LOT to not win the game instantly. If at least he had haste or his tokens ETB like GoST tokens, tapped and attacking, then he could be good. But as of now, he's mostly a trap.
Maybe someone could pull off a Rakdos deck with Slumbering Dragons and Rakdos himself forcing that big guy on, but he doesn't belong in HS. I'd play another Thundermaw Hellkite before playing him
EDIT: Stupid Golgari charm, seriously, Disenchant on a BG instant? Zombies just got the perfect sideboard to slow down this comp. And the worst part is that the Charm is prolly maindeckable.
At least using it at turn 2 slows them down as much as us.
Yup Golgari Charm just hurt this deck alot...
Oh well... We'll play around it. Playing it on turn 2 hurts their tempo alot and hopefully we could drop a 2nd Heartless turn 3 and play a 1 drop. Thats something we're missing here is an 2R or 2B Drop that can become a decent 1 drop with heartless.
Yup Golgari Charm just hurt this deck alot...
Oh well... We'll play around it. Playing it on turn 2 hurts their tempo alot and hopefully we could drop a 2nd Heartless turn 3 and play a 1 drop. Thats something we're missing here is an 2R or 2B Drop that can become a decent 1 drop with heartless.
Not happening. The only viable (and by that I mean bad) choices are Hanweir Lancer and Hanweir Watchkeep. First Strike in the land of giant fliers is meh and if only Watchkeep had Reach to screw GoST, then maybe it would be a nice call, although unreliable.
In RtR, the only 2B that survives HS is a common 2/3 Unleash. Meh².
And the two 2R are Guttersnipe (ok, not that bad in a deck running 8 1-mana spells, but... I can't see that working) and Lobber Crew, a 0/3 Defender with "tap" pings opponent for 1" and untap when casting a multicolored spell, which we have only 2 (and another 5 on SB). Guess we can just suck it up and drop a 2 drop on T3 with mana open for Flame/Slip, at least until Gatecrash.
New list Ive been thinking Falkenrath Noble is basically Blood Artist for us so why not play Killing Wave. The card has been really successful for me with Blood Artist in my B/r Zombies so why not here?
I cut Zealous Conscripts completely out and moved them to Sideboard. Maybe Ill add one back in but I really wanna play Hellsteed just to test it.
New list Ive been thinking Falkenrath Noble is basically Blood Artist for us so why not play Killing Wave. The card has been really successful for me with Blood Artist in my B/r Zombies so why not here?
I cut Zealous Conscripts completely out and moved them to Sideboard. Maybe Ill add one back in but I really wanna play Hellsteed just to test it.
Idk, I have the feeling Mutilate is better because it doesn't give your opponent a choice. It justs wipes the table pronto and most of our creatures can survive 3 or 4 damage (and if they die, FA just won the game). Maybe luring them into paying life to get into Rakdos Charm/Searing Spear reach is nice, but unconsistent. Also, the mana curve of Zombies is inherently low, so a X spell has more value.
I wouldn't play Hellsteed. If you compare him to Thundermaw Hellkite, the dragon has 1 less power (considering Unleash), but costs 1 less mana and it is virtually guaranteed to connect (only Reach can stop it), and the same is not true for Hellsteed.
Idk, I have the feeling Mutilate is better because it doesn't give your opponent a choice. It justs wipes the table pronto and most of our creatures can survive 3 or 4 damage (and if they die, FA just won the game). Maybe luring them into paying life to get into Rakdos Charm/Searing Spear reach is nice, but unconsistent. Also, the mana curve of Zombies is inherently low, so an X spell has more value.
I wouldn't play Hellsteed. If you compare him to Thundermaw Hellkite, the dragon has 1 less power (considering Unleash), but costs 1 less mana and it is virtually guaranteed to connect (only Reach can stop it), and the same is not true for Hellsteed.
You know thats not a bad point on Hellsteed and Mutilate. I love this forum just bouncing ideas back and forth. I think I will play Mutilate instead. A second Mikaeus might be nice in place of Hellsteed. If hes out when you wipe the board everything just returns on your end and gets beefed up.
EDIT: Yea, although I love Conscripts, that is the first thing off when sideboarding against Zombies. Shines against Jund and the mirror though. "Oh I will just get this pretty Rakdos and attack you with it if you dont mind". Also, against control, you can control a land if they pass with it open just to prevent a counter/disruption if you are to put a big threat (say Thundermaw/Mikaeus). "Oh you passed with 4 mana open? I guess there's no Combat Phase RestoAngel for you, sorry."
You can even let them build up a Planeswalker just to control and ultimate it yourself. The sheer thought of my opponent's face while I do that is priceless.
After a bit more testing, I think this is the sweet spot. Although Mikaeus is amazing, he's on BBB and his immediate impact on board depends on how many creatures you have. Zealous Conscripts, on the other hand, is so easy to cast and versatile, his immediate impact is absurd.
Moved Mikaeus to SB and cut a Rakdos Charm, as we do not have many good artifacts in Standard now. They will serve as Zombies/Snappy/Tokens hate, and two is fine.
In my meta, people tend to go along GW Aggro or Ramp, and with all those good cards for Selesnya, I doubt this will change. It isn't the hardest comp, just gotta kill the dorks. As soon RtR hits, I will take this to FNM and post the results.
After a bit more testing, I think this is the sweet spot. Although Mikaeus is amazing, he's on BBB and his immediate impact on board depends on how many creatures you have. Zealous Conscripts, on the other hand, is so easy to cast and versatile, his immediate impact is absurd.
Moved Mikaeus to SB and cut a Rakdos Charm, as we do not have many good artifacts in Standard now. They will serve as Zombies/Snappy/Tokens hate, and two is fine.
In my meta, people tend to go along GW Aggro or Ramp, and with all those good cards for Selesnya, I doubt this will change. It isn't the hardest comp, just gotta kill the dorks. As soon RtR hits, I will take this to FNM and post the results.
Where would you side Mikaeus in against? Im not really sure why the move to sideboard.
Do not like Searing Spear. Dreadbore is definitely better IMO.
My meta sees alot of Delver and Control so Im not sure how I may tune mine to my meta more.
Where would you side Mikaeus in against? Im not really sure why the move to sideboard.
Do not like Searing Spear. Dreadbore is definitely better IMO.
My meta sees alot of Delver and Control so Im not sure how I may tune mine to my meta more.
I moved him to SB because he's hard to cast and his consistence depends on how many creatures you have (to gain the extra attack bonus). Conscripts, on the other hand, are versatile as hell: they are cheaper, have immediate impact on Haste and their ETB is golden. You can control a creature, a land or a PW. You can literally screw your opponent all on this single pretty card.
The haste is amazing, as if Hellrider is out, that's 1 or 2 extra damage (if you control an opponent's creature). He can also serve as a sort of Tribute to Hunter with Desecration Demon depending on the creature you choose to control. His versatility makes him just way too good.
I would side in Mikaeus (alongside Duress and Slaughter Games) against decks running Bonfires and Supreme Verdicts, especially the former.
About Dreadbore, the card is nice but I think not as good for this deck. It's a sorcery and we want to keep mana open for Olivia. It destroys big creatures, but Tragic Slip is easy to Morbid in for this deck. And PWs are the least of our concerns, with tons of big flying dudes and the aforementioned Zealous Conscripts which can screw a PW big time. And as of now, they are running for $7 apiece, totally overrated.
Not to mention that Searing Spear can not only badly damage planeswalkers, but also finish your opponent if needed.
If you dont have a Heartless in your opening hand is it an auto mulligan?
No. You have to build your deck to play without it. Obviously you will be better with it, but youre only getting it in your opener ~45% of the time. If you're going to auto mulligan the rest of the time, you're going to lose a lot of games you had a better chance of winning without the mulligan - are you going to go to 5 if you don't find it? 4? etc etc.
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I think I may play something really similar to this list but are the Falkenrath Nobles there mostly just to say "Hey you cant bonfire me" or what. If we arent playing sweepers like killing wave I dont really see that point in running 3
After a bit more testing, I think this is the sweet spot. Although Mikaeus is amazing, he's on BBB and his immediate impact on board depends on how many creatures you have. Zealous Conscripts, on the other hand, is so easy to cast and versatile, his immediate impact is absurd.
Moved Mikaeus to SB and cut a Rakdos Charm, as we do not have many good artifacts in Standard now. They will serve as Zombies/Snappy/Tokens hate, and two is fine.
In my meta, people tend to go along GW Aggro or Ramp, and with all those good cards for Selesnya, I doubt this will change. It isn't the hardest comp, just gotta kill the dorks. As soon RtR hits, I will take this to FNM and post the results.
Maybe try reaper of the abyss or harvestor of souls?
Maybe try reaper of the abyss or harvestor of souls?
Reaper doesnt seem good here cause you maybe forced to kill your own creature sometimes. Harvester seems like it could be sometime but a 6cmc Id rather play something like Charmbreaker Devil or Mikeaus. But I would actually just play another Bloodgift Demon before I played Harvester since Im always going to get my extra card off him.
So if you don't draw Heartless in your opener, what's your play? Draw go, draw go, Draw go, Turn 4 Olivia? The deck either needs some earlier proactive plays, or a way to get back in the game later. I wouldn't rule out a B/G list with Heartless and Thragtusk for that reason.
So if you don't draw Heartless in your opener, what's your play? Draw go, draw go, Draw go, Turn 4 Olivia? The deck either needs some earlier proactive plays, or a way to get back in the game later. I wouldn't rule out a B/G list with Heartless and Thragtusk for that reason.
Without Heartless turn 3 Nighthawk is your best play. You just keep mana open turn 1 and 2 to drop there Mana Dork or something like Delver or Champion of Parish.
The huge downside I've seen to many Heartless decks is the fact that without Heartless they just plain suck. This seems to be less so the case here.
The weenies are there as chumps for the aggro rush, plus none of them actually lose value once Heartless hits the board. The goblin becomes burn and the cat is disruption.
Dropping them/Heartless into each other also instantly acitvates a morbid Brimstone Volley. They can also get damage through to surprise someone with big papa Rakdos.
The guildmage I thought kinda sucked, but in playtesting has proved surprisingly strong.
The Hellsteed and Chaos Imps are there because they HIT HARD. Harder than you'd expect
I haven't fully explored other options, but even with Heartless around I do still want my dudes to be able to hit in for 5 or 6. The guy I have considered as a replacement is Reaper from the Abyss as the deck activates morbid really well, but I'm not such a fan of triple-black in its cost.
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Yeah, what Gate Keeper said. I had pretty nice games without even seeing HS at all. The first turns are meant for controlling, and HS isnt necessary at all depending on the hand.
About Falkenrath Noble, he is there for a couple of reasons. He flies, so he can chump block anything. By flying, he's guaranteed to hit when Thundermaw hits play. He's easy to cast even without HS and, most importantly, he comboes with Desecration Demon: if you choose to tap my Demon, I will gain one and you will lose one. Its a nice piece of pressure.
We kinda discussed about Arsonist. He's good but unreliable. He can't be used to kill mana dorks or unflipped Delver if you fail to have HS at T2. That makes the deck more dependant on HS when it should be the opposite.
About Hellsteed and Guild Imps, we've tried them but Thundermaw Hellkite is just better, in every sense of it. But keep lets keep on brewing this!
All these lists are just bad version of Rakdos aggro... even if we get a turn 2 HS you don't have any better chances of winning and are slowed down a turn. I think we should use heartless summoning as a "combo piece" rather than just a ooo my creatures just got weaker SWEET!... wtf. I'll post my list soon.
Anyone tried Jund or 4c yet? You can build a ramp deck with pretty high odds of landing a HS or Farseek t2. Early Thragtusk or machinegunning with Olivia/Niv seems pretty good. Honestly, having played HS before, I don't think timmy Rakdos beaters is the way to go.
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I'm def not sold on that Dragon. 8 manas is A LOT to not win the game instantly. If at least he had haste or his tokens ETB like GoST tokens, tapped and attacking, then he could be good. But as of now, he's mostly a trap.
Maybe someone could pull off a Rakdos deck with Slumbering Dragons and Rakdos himself forcing that big guy on, but he doesn't belong in HS. I'd play another Thundermaw Hellkite before playing him
EDIT: Stupid Golgari charm, seriously, Disenchant on a BG instant? Zombies just got the perfect sideboard to slow down this comp. And the worst part is that the Charm is prolly maindeckable.
At least using it at turn 2 slows them down as much as us.
Oh well... We'll play around it. Playing it on turn 2 hurts their tempo alot and hopefully we could drop a 2nd Heartless turn 3 and play a 1 drop. Thats something we're missing here is an 2R or 2B Drop that can become a decent 1 drop with heartless.
Not happening. The only viable (and by that I mean bad) choices are Hanweir Lancer and Hanweir Watchkeep. First Strike in the land of giant fliers is meh and if only Watchkeep had Reach to screw GoST, then maybe it would be a nice call, although unreliable.
In RtR, the only 2B that survives HS is a common 2/3 Unleash. Meh².
And the two 2R are Guttersnipe (ok, not that bad in a deck running 8 1-mana spells, but... I can't see that working) and Lobber Crew, a 0/3 Defender with "tap" pings opponent for 1" and untap when casting a multicolored spell, which we have only 2 (and another 5 on SB). Guess we can just suck it up and drop a 2 drop on T3 with mana open for Flame/Slip, at least until Gatecrash.
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Hellrider
3 Falkenrath Noble
4 Desecration Demon
3 Bloodgift Demon
1 Charmbreaker Devil
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1 Carnival Hellsteed
4 Heartless Summoning
3 Tragic Slip
3 Geistflame
3 Dreadbore
2 Killing Wave
9 Swamp
7 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
New list Ive been thinking Falkenrath Noble is basically Blood Artist for us so why not play Killing Wave. The card has been really successful for me with Blood Artist in my B/r Zombies so why not here?
I cut Zealous Conscripts completely out and moved them to Sideboard. Maybe Ill add one back in but I really wanna play Hellsteed just to test it.
Idk, I have the feeling Mutilate is better because it doesn't give your opponent a choice. It justs wipes the table pronto and most of our creatures can survive 3 or 4 damage (and if they die, FA just won the game). Maybe luring them into paying life to get into Rakdos Charm/Searing Spear reach is nice, but unconsistent. Also, the mana curve of Zombies is inherently low, so a X spell has more value.
I wouldn't play Hellsteed. If you compare him to Thundermaw Hellkite, the dragon has 1 less power (considering Unleash), but costs 1 less mana and it is virtually guaranteed to connect (only Reach can stop it), and the same is not true for Hellsteed.
You know thats not a bad point on Hellsteed and Mutilate. I love this forum just bouncing ideas back and forth. I think I will play Mutilate instead. A second Mikaeus might be nice in place of Hellsteed. If hes out when you wipe the board everything just returns on your end and gets beefed up.
You can even let them build up a Planeswalker just to control and ultimate it yourself. The sheer thought of my opponent's face while I do that is priceless.
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Olivia Voldaren
2 Hellrider
3 Falkenrath Noble
4 Desecration Demon
3 Bloodgift Demon
2 Zealous Conscripts
2 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Tragic Slip
4 Geistflame
3 Searing Spear
Lands
9 Swamp
7 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Dragonskull Summit
1 Devil's Play
1 Mikaeus, The Unhallowed
2 Slaughter Games
2 Mutilate
2 Duress
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Rakdos Charm
3 Pillar of Flame
After a bit more testing, I think this is the sweet spot. Although Mikaeus is amazing, he's on BBB and his immediate impact on board depends on how many creatures you have. Zealous Conscripts, on the other hand, is so easy to cast and versatile, his immediate impact is absurd.
Moved Mikaeus to SB and cut a Rakdos Charm, as we do not have many good artifacts in Standard now. They will serve as Zombies/Snappy/Tokens hate, and two is fine.
In my meta, people tend to go along GW Aggro or Ramp, and with all those good cards for Selesnya, I doubt this will change. It isn't the hardest comp, just gotta kill the dorks. As soon RtR hits, I will take this to FNM and post the results.
Where would you side Mikaeus in against? Im not really sure why the move to sideboard.
Do not like Searing Spear. Dreadbore is definitely better IMO.
My meta sees alot of Delver and Control so Im not sure how I may tune mine to my meta more.
I moved him to SB because he's hard to cast and his consistence depends on how many creatures you have (to gain the extra attack bonus). Conscripts, on the other hand, are versatile as hell: they are cheaper, have immediate impact on Haste and their ETB is golden. You can control a creature, a land or a PW. You can literally screw your opponent all on this single pretty card.
The haste is amazing, as if Hellrider is out, that's 1 or 2 extra damage (if you control an opponent's creature). He can also serve as a sort of Tribute to Hunter with Desecration Demon depending on the creature you choose to control. His versatility makes him just way too good.
I would side in Mikaeus (alongside Duress and Slaughter Games) against decks running Bonfires and Supreme Verdicts, especially the former.
About Dreadbore, the card is nice but I think not as good for this deck. It's a sorcery and we want to keep mana open for Olivia. It destroys big creatures, but Tragic Slip is easy to Morbid in for this deck. And PWs are the least of our concerns, with tons of big flying dudes and the aforementioned Zealous Conscripts which can screw a PW big time. And as of now, they are running for $7 apiece, totally overrated.
Not to mention that Searing Spear can not only badly damage planeswalkers, but also finish your opponent if needed.
If you dont have a Heartless in your opening hand is it an auto mulligan?
4 Desecration Demon
3 Rakdos, lord of riots
2 Reaper from the Abyss
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Zealous Conscripts
3 Duress
2 Essence Harvest
4 Geistflame
4 Heartless Summoning
2 Mutilate
1 Searing Spear
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Dragonskull Summit
6 Mountain
8 Swamp
No. You have to build your deck to play without it. Obviously you will be better with it, but youre only getting it in your opener ~45% of the time. If you're going to auto mulligan the rest of the time, you're going to lose a lot of games you had a better chance of winning without the mulligan - are you going to go to 5 if you don't find it? 4? etc etc.
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I think I may play something really similar to this list but are the Falkenrath Nobles there mostly just to say "Hey you cant bonfire me" or what. If we arent playing sweepers like killing wave I dont really see that point in running 3
Maybe try reaper of the abyss or harvestor of souls?
Reaper doesnt seem good here cause you maybe forced to kill your own creature sometimes. Harvester seems like it could be sometime but a 6cmc Id rather play something like Charmbreaker Devil or Mikeaus. But I would actually just play another Bloodgift Demon before I played Harvester since Im always going to get my extra card off him.
Modern:
:symu::symw::symr: UWr Geist :symr::symw::symu:
EDH:
:symb::symb::symr::symr: Rakdos, Lord of Riots :symr::symr::symb::symb:
Without Heartless turn 3 Nighthawk is your best play. You just keep mana open turn 1 and 2 to drop there Mana Dork or something like Delver or Champion of Parish.
4x Black Cat
4x Rix Maadi Guildmage
4x Rakdos, Lord of Riots
4x Bloodgift Demon
3x Carnival Hellsteed
3x Chaos Imps
4x Pillar of Flame
4x Brimstone Volley
4x Blood Crypt
4x Dragonskull Summit
2x Rakdos Guildgate
6x Swamp
6x Mountain
The huge downside I've seen to many Heartless decks is the fact that without Heartless they just plain suck. This seems to be less so the case here.
The weenies are there as chumps for the aggro rush, plus none of them actually lose value once Heartless hits the board. The goblin becomes burn and the cat is disruption.
Dropping them/Heartless into each other also instantly acitvates a morbid Brimstone Volley. They can also get damage through to surprise someone with big papa Rakdos.
The guildmage I thought kinda sucked, but in playtesting has proved surprisingly strong.
The Hellsteed and Chaos Imps are there because they HIT HARD. Harder than you'd expect
I haven't fully explored other options, but even with Heartless around I do still want my dudes to be able to hit in for 5 or 6. The guy I have considered as a replacement is Reaper from the Abyss as the deck activates morbid really well, but I'm not such a fan of triple-black in its cost.
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About Falkenrath Noble, he is there for a couple of reasons. He flies, so he can chump block anything. By flying, he's guaranteed to hit when Thundermaw hits play. He's easy to cast even without HS and, most importantly, he comboes with Desecration Demon: if you choose to tap my Demon, I will gain one and you will lose one. Its a nice piece of pressure.
About Hellsteed and Guild Imps, we've tried them but Thundermaw Hellkite is just better, in every sense of it. But keep lets keep on brewing this!
GR Ramp Happy Valakut GR