Lol you were not beating Jund, Zombies or UW control very consistently. It was probably fairly close to even. And the UW list was not very mature and we played one match with it
Tokens may be T1 though, it's definitely gotten better even just with conclave.
Eh, you're right. Last night wasn't a highlight of tokens - however I was also playing like a dumbass. Your UW list does need work though, I thought we played it a lot more than once. To much magic lately - three hours of playing the same few decks blurs them all together.
Just read the first page so far and seeing as how people have already started talking about adding black when the guidelines clearly say not to amuses people. People the guy said no black, just GW tokens so be helpful or stay quiet and leave.
Personally I don't like the idea of an expensive overkill enchantment, and would rather just play the miracle version.
Trostani is probably decent in here.
I mean, I know the first post says no black, but most people would rather not make a separate deck thread. Tokens needs black as a splash IMO. Lingering Souls is just that good.
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Personally I don't like the idea of an expensive overkill enchantment, and would rather just play the miracle version.
Trostani is probably decent in here.
I mean, I know the first post says no black, but most people would rather not make a separate deck thread. Tokens needs black as a splash IMO. Lingering Souls is just that good.
so basically, excluding trostani, you don't run a single populate card...
i don't agree with using avacyn's pilgrim over arbor elf. since we are using temple garden, arbor elf can give us both G and W mana and allows us to play temple garden untapped without losing 2 lives if we want/need.
by the way there is already a thread about Junk tokens, so there are already two separate threads
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Personally I don't like the idea of an expensive overkill enchantment, and would rather just play the miracle version.
Trostani is probably decent in here.
I mean, I know the first post says no black, but most people would rather not make a separate deck thread. Tokens needs black as a splash IMO. Lingering Souls is just that good.
2. I like the idea of Entreat the Angels as a one of in the deck, worse case its 2 4/4 flyers for 7.
3. Didn't think about adding Mikaeus, the Lunarch, need some playtesting to see if that works in the deck, I tried it in previous decks and it just always seemed to die, but in the new format maybe it will be better.
4. What about the new populate cards like the one for 1G that prevents all combat damage to you or Rootborn Defenses?
I'm a little hesitant about the Collective Blessing... I see it as MAYBE a two-of but... it's so mana expensive! By the time we drop it, shouldn't we be winning already? I also feel like I should squeeze an Oblivion Ring or two...or three, but I don't know where. I also feel like more flying tokens are needed. That repopulate + birds spell doesn't seem to cut it and Lingering Souls...well ths isn't a Junk build haha. Hm...The lone Wayfaring Temple seems a little odd. It isn't pretty but it gets the job done. I feel like I'm just missing...SOMETHING. Garruk's ultimate absolutely SLAYS though, and his card draw with Wayfaring is always fun to do. I feel like we need a more definitive token engine. The new guildmage just seems too mana extensive...you got to pump six mana for a single token, granted all the ones past that cost four but that's still alot. I'm considering replacing Wayfaring with Growing Ranks and then one or two more cards, like a Rancor or something. It seems stable enough...MAYBE drop a plains for one...
I've been doing several testing. removal is a HUGE problem.
it's very hard sometimes to have something to populate. UW control has so many way to destroy our token army:
supreme verdict
terminus
oblivion ring
detention sphere
azorius charm
rootborn defense actually protect us only from supreme verdict.
a bit better with jund, where it gives us protection from dreadbore and abrupt decay, but also jund has his way around it with mutilate.
it's nice and fun to play but it' hard to keep up with these 2 archetypes
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Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
I think there's good synergy in this deck but I'm worried if it's too weak in the long run. I'll try some playtesting with proxies and see how it turns out.
I'm a little hesitant about the Collective Blessing... I see it as MAYBE a two-of but... it's so mana expensive! By the time we drop it, shouldn't we be winning already? I also feel like I should squeeze an Oblivion Ring or two...or three, but I don't know where. I also feel like more flying tokens are needed. That repopulate + birds spell doesn't seem to cut it and Lingering Souls...well ths isn't a Junk build haha. Hm...The lone Wayfaring Temple seems a little odd. It isn't pretty but it gets the job done. I feel like I'm just missing...SOMETHING. Garruk's ultimate absolutely SLAYS though, and his card draw with Wayfaring is always fun to do. I feel like we need a more definitive token engine. The new guildmage just seems too mana extensive...you got to pump six mana for a single token, granted all the ones past that cost four but that's still alot. I'm considering replacing Wayfaring with Growing Ranks and then one or two more cards, like a Rancor or something. It seems stable enough...MAYBE drop a plains for one...
Real basic, but I like it haha. Zombies get sad haha.
Why are you worried about mana base? Collective Blessing is a win condition, especially in a less aggro Meta that Wizards designed. MaRo has straight up said that they are trying to extend the standard into a more midrange format. Meaning more T6 to T8 games where collective blessing will truly be a win condition.
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Maybe its cause used to a fast environment. I've only been in Standard for a year and those matches went by pretty fast. Maybe once I see and experience the format slow down, I'll come around to them. I'll test them out, but over what?
How do we incorporate the new Armada Wurm? I see it as a two of for sure if we can ramp fast enough. The token alone is worth it if the real one dies. Populate the field with those beasts, haha. What to take out though? Maybe drop Rancor to two and cut the Wayfaring? Everything else seems too needed really...
mdshamess, I feel like your deck needs a few mana dorks to get the best out of it. Are the four tombs enough to reliably get the flashback on the Lingering Souls? I also like you should squeeze a Rancor or two in there... I think Phantom General can be replaced by Growing Ranks, too. At the cost, you can get out more tokens and its not as prone to removal. Maybe drop one or two Gavony for a Grove of the Guardian? I feel like the big token is needed at times.
I would not go lower than 3 of Rancor in any green deck due to its utility. As a way to get through blockers and also as a way to get rid of irritating 3 and 4 power creatures with Selesnya Charm, its never a bad draw and I'm happy to have 2 in hand.
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I've not died, nor have I vanished. I have, however edited the original post that I have taken time to add each decklist proposed by others here in order of chronological, like a vertical timeline.
I will later add Possibly Armada wurm, very fat, decent, would be an excellent populate target.
Now that the full spoiler is out, can we think of any options we should consider? Other than the inclusion of Armada Wurm, what else should we try to incorporate? I'll try to compile a list of possible cards that I haven't seen discussed quite yet.
These are cards just from Return to Ravnica that are the only 'viable' cards we haven't DISCUSSED discussed. A few of them have been touched on, but not that much. I'm not saying I'm an expert on the deck, but lets try to look a little closer to the cards available. I think of we should look at the options from M13 and Innistrad block in the same way, card by card for each person to see. Lets spark a discussion and breathe new life into this deck.
Eyes in the Skies:
Alright, so this card isn't that too impressive. At first glance, it looks like a worse Midnight Haunting/Lingering Souls. It costs one more mana and it produces only a 1/1 Bird and if you play it by itself, then you get two 1/1 Birds. That's a profit of two flying 1/1's for 4cmc. Not liking that at first, but what if we combine it with our other tokens? Now this might be considered 'too cute' for some players, and I can respect that, but here is a list of tokens that we use so far:
Now this isn't factoring in Intangible Virtue or Collective Blessing, but if you care to include those, then these tokens obviously grow, haha. So is that 4cmc populate + a Bird worth it? Let's look at the card again. I choose to see it instead as basically reading Populate, here's a bird. I wouldn't mind getting another Centaur or an Elemental and another threat in the sky. This card obviously isn't as good as Rootborn Defense or Druid's Deliverance, and is nowhere as good as Sundering Growth, but it MAY be DECENT as a one-of or two-of if a list has room.
Security Blockade
This could be seen as a slower Call of the Conclave or a lesser Selesnya Charm. Its not game changing, but the prevention of 1 damage a turn might be relevant. A couple Burn and RDW threads are popping up already, and casting this turn 2, factoring in a turn one mana dork and two land drops, could help in that match up along with a relevant token to protect with.
T1: Arbor Elf/Avacyn's Pilgrim
T2: Security Blockade
Field: a 1/1 Mana Dork and a 2/2 Vigilence Knight Token
compared to Call of the Conclave
T1: Arbor Elf/Avacyn's Pilgrim
T2: Call of the Conclave
Field: a 1/1 Mana Dork and a 3/3 Centaur token. Not all the different except one open mana
Compared to Midnight Haunting
T1: Arbor Elf/Avacyn's Pilgrim
T2: Midnight Haunting
Field: Dork and two 1/1 flying Spirits.
Any of these plays are decisive turn twos. The Haunting Option I think is best, followed by Centaur, then the Security Blockade, but again, stopping a few points of damage from burning MAY be enough to warrant a sideboard slot or two. Again, its cute...
Deadbridge Goliath
This guy is just big. Sometimes a beater is just needed, haha. I could see this being somewhat of a plan B or even part of Plan A. Use a few tokens and this guy, then when field wipes happen, swarm with more tokens and Scavenge this guy to help rebuild the swarm. Scavenging it shouldn't be too hard with out mana base, and the nice +5/+5 to a flyer with anthem effects already in play sounds appealing, ESPECIALLY since the opponent just so kindly wiped the board, haha. This guy with a Rancor thrown on is a must answer threat. a 7/5 just smashing through is dangerous, then you can transfer all 7 of that power sine Rancor is just so cool and brings itself back. It really doesn't need that much of an explanation. If Armada Wurms can't be used, budget or none in stock, I could see using this in Armada's slot. Horncaller's Chant
This is strictly almost a lesser, green only Armada Wurm. For 8cmc, you get two 4/4 tramplers instead of 6cmc and 2 5/5 tramplers. Granted, this could populate the field with another token, like the aforementioned Eyes in the Skies, but this is just really expensive. Again, budgets could use this over Armada. Usually, I'd populate the Rhino token instead of a Spirit or a Centaur, but if a Elemental is out, then...no still...no... Oak Street Innkeeper
If we really want to get aggressive, then this could be useful, haha. U/W Spirits is using Drogskol Captain to hexproof their tokens, and we may be able to use this. Its worth testing at least. Bring this guy out, attack with the swarm, then during the opponents when they swing in kind, respond with the Druid's Deliverance, haha. Troll to the opponent, and you get another token!:D With enough flyers and tramplers, the damage should be getting through especially if you hardcore swing each turn. This card encourages aggressive plays, and with our anthems, I think we can pull it off. The deck may have to be a little more adjusted to fully utilize him, however. I like the feel of it, haha. After our tired spirits and giant grove elemental are done attacking, they go to an Inn, haha. The spirits haunt it and somehow the entire grove fits in there, haha. Slime Molding (Slightly discussed, but I think it deserves another look)
Got spare mana? We got a one time mana sink, haha! This could be useful if we have a starting hand full of mana dorks and a few repopulate spells that are just sitting there. In previous green decks, I dread hands where I have two Llanowar Elves and a Bird of Paradise and a few lands. This could SLIGHTLY make that better, haha. Not to say that is its only application. Just needing to get a big creature out quickly is justification enough I think. Only one or two though. Spare one more mana, and you can Rancor for awesomeness. Grove of the Guardian drops as an 8/8, but it requires technically six lands and I usually tap useless mana dorks for the rest of the requirements.so looking at eight 'mana' really. You could sink that much into this and get a 7/7 if that appeals to you at all. I feel like some people may prefer this versatility. Loxodon Smiter
I see this as a potential side. I've seen a few decks popping up abusing Rakdos's Return and Rat Tribal and the discard-into-play ability is relevant, especially on a pleasant 4/4 body. He's a vanilla once he hits, but hey, most of our creatures are. Rancor him and let him smite away. His other ability is relevant as well. Side it into the deck vs control and we have a threat around the midmatch that the opponent can't counter. I consider that good enough to warrant a spot or two. I don't know about the main deck, though. A more aggressive Selesnya deck could make better use of him. Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
So another mana sink. This Bear creates more Centaurs if you need them, but I think its second ability is more important. Sinking mana and making more evasive flyers or more Grove Guardians if you have one, haha. He isn't immediately useful so the opponent probably won't waste removal on him. Thats a mistake. Cards that fly under the radar are nice. Being able to repopulate every turn is extremely relevant and this card can help stabilize after a board wipe. I have yet to test it, but it might be useful. Trostani, Voice of the Conclave
I don't know how to feel about this card. We can drop this turn three with a dork and we may be able to utilize its first ability once or twice. But to what end? Our tokens come in as 1/1 or 2/2, or at best 3/3. If we get this going then an Elemental token, the 8/8 one, might make this relevant enough. Its second ability...I'd rather just have growing Ranks. I don't think this card should be good enough... Dryad Militant
A sideboard card at most, although it is extremely aggressive. It shuts down a few decks if it gets out fast enough, although it easily dies to removal. If you like Elite Vanguard, then use this as such, haha. Better disruption is the also new, Rest in Peace. Growing Ranks
I kind of love this card in here. I want to put in at least two of them. Trostani should have had this as her static ability. The ability to gain a +1 in card advantage each turn, especially on evasive tokens, in my opinion is extremely relevant. We can drop this turn three with a mana dork and with many ways to make tokens turn two, this card is amazing! Judge's Familiar
Another evasive pinger, except we can drop this turn one and use it to control the opponent's turn one. However, I prefer a turn one mana dork...I could see siding it, but I wouldn't main a full four.
after quite a bit of testing i came to the following conclusions:
token generators: we need tokens on the field if we want to populate, that's a fact. call of the conclave and slime molding creates very nice tokens, but only one of them. this most of the times means that if we don't have 3 mana open and a rootborn defense in hand, next turn we won't have anything to populate. for this reason midnight hunting and gather the townsfolk are better choices even if they produce 1/1s.
populate: that's what we want to do, and we have plenty of tools to do it, which ones should we choose? probably the ones that make us do thing we'd do anyway, so a big yes to rootborn defense and druid's deliverance. another great card is growing ranks: if not answered quickly it makes our swarm very dangerous, and it's card advantage every turn.
creatures: the only creature wee need early in the game is arbor elf, obviously better than avacyn's pilgrim as he can give us both g and w mana. trostani, selesnya's voice is great: wall, lifegain, populate. but i wouldn't put her on field asap. wait for when we have anough mana to protect her, if we manage to get her to stick in the field it's a nightmare for our opponents. vitu-ghazi, guildmage costs 2, but in my opinion is a late game card, to use after a supreme verdict or bonfire we couldn't defended from, to get our populating chain restarted. wayfaring temple...meh. let me be clear, if it works is amazing, but that's a big IF. if there are not tokens on field he's useless, if there are tokens he's probably our biggest creature, so he's going to be blocked and not activate his ability (unless we give him trample). he's more of a win-more.
excellent exclusions: Sigarda, Host of Herons and Loxodon Smiter: very good cards, but not useful to our plan. they are a must in an aggro/midrange build, but that's a different deck.
i'm not sure yet about armada wurm. if we want to abuse him, we need to build around him. we need resto angel, cloudshift and so on, cards that don't go well with tokens.
Huey, Dewey and Louie are always dressed in RUG. it is CLEARLY going to be the wedges block Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
How consistent are your token producers coming up? I am assuming you are using Selesnya chameleon as a token generator? That's 12 token producers including groves. Seems like a solid base. Is is turning out to be enough?
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after quite a bit of testing i came to the following conclusions:
token generators: we need tokens on the field if we want to populate, that's a fact. call of the conclave and slime molding creates very nice tokens, but only one of them. this most of the times means that if we don't have 3 mana open and a rootborn defense in hand, next turn we won't have anything to populate. for this reason midnight hunting and gather the townsfolk are better choices even if they produce 1/1s.
populate: that's what we want to do, and we have plenty of tools to do it, which ones should we choose? probably the ones that make us do thing we'd do anyway, so a big yes to rootborn defense and druid's deliverance. another great card is growing ranks: if not answered quickly it makes our swarm very dangerous, and it's card advantage every turn.
creatures: the only creature wee need early in the game is arbor elf, obviously better than avacyn's pilgrim as he can give us both g and w mana. trostani, selesnya's voice is great: wall, lifegain, populate. but i wouldn't put her on field asap. wait for when we have anough mana to protect her, if we manage to get her to stick in the field it's a nightmare for our opponents. vitu-ghazi, guildmage costs 2, but in my opinion is a late game card, to use after a supreme verdict or bonfire we couldn't defended from, to get our populating chain restarted. wayfaring temple...meh. let me be clear, if it works is amazing, but that's a big IF. if there are not tokens on field he's useless, if there are tokens he's probably our biggest creature, so he's going to be blocked and not activate his ability (unless we give him trample). he's more of a win-more.
excellent exclusions: Sigarda, Host of Herons and Loxodon Smiter: very good cards, but not useful to our plan. they are a must in an aggro/midrange build, but that's a different deck.
i'm not sure yet about armada wurm. if we want to abuse him, we need to build around him. we need resto angel, cloudshift and so on, cards that don't go well with tokens.
Honestly, I dont like the deck. Some parts are fine but others seem too trick based. You have at most 11 ways to originally get tokens on the board. That is way too low IMO. Two more Calls, probably gather the townsfolk since it's cheap to cast. You also have too many ways to get populate since you dont have many token generators.
Also, I dont think using Selesnya Charm as a token generator is very good. It's a utility card so it should be used as such.
Your mana is low even with 3 farseeks. I'd add one more farseek and probably another land.
I think Druid's deliverance isnt very good but love rootborn defense. Either deliverance is protecting you from early damage instead of you making tokens or it's used late game when you should already be winning. I'd keep three of the Rootborn though because they protect your creatures even when there are no tokens.
Phantom general and even collective bargaining(my choice) are also late game options that could finish them quick.
I dont want to seem like Im totally crushing your deck but heres an option you may want to test?
This gives you 17 token generators and 9 ways to make them populate. You could even take out the arbor elfs since most of your spells cost 3 or less and put in 3 doomed traveler and add another growing ranks. That would up your tokens even more and give you 10 populate options.
Why Farseek ? We curve out at 4cmc. I'm not saying don't run it, I'm just curious
Good point. I'm so used to needing it in the decks I've been testing but in this deck...there really isnt a need for it and it just wastes a turn. Thanks for the imput! I would probably use it for a GWb variant though that includes the awesome Lingering spirits but not this deck.
What to replace it with? I'd put a fourth charm into your list, I'd personally run two Garruk of preference, then fourth rootborn defense. Your thoughts?
What to replace it with? I'd put a fourth charm into your list, I'd personally run two Garruk of preference, then fourth rootborn defense. Your thoughts?
Sounds just about perfect to me. The cheaper Garruk would be my preference in this list. He's easier to cast,quicker to hit the board, and has a somewhat relevant removal ability if needed. His tokens have handy deathtouch as well. Outside of that, his flipped abilities suck(for this deck) but you cant have everything! Seriously though, 3 green can be tough to get unless we work the mana base a bit.
I'm honestly considering dropping Gavony to 1 or cutting it altogether and replacing with forests. I usually don't want to sink mana into it unless I'm already winning. The spare mana I have that I COULD have spent on it I tend to save for a rootborn defense or a charm in hand just in case. At least Grove gives a game changer. I really don't want to...but should we consider the Keyrune?:/
I like Primal Hunter personally because of the big token right away or even just using him as an expensive hand refill then letting him die. I'm fine with a person wasting a Dreadbore on him rather than the Grove Elemental I'll drop next turn and slap Rancor onto. PLus if we DO get the ultimate...Sweet Jesus...:O
EDIT: Thoughts of Mikeaous the Lunarch? Possible Mana sink for dead turns, lightning rod for removal, and pumping our evasion/trampling creatures
I'm honestly considering dropping Gavony to 1 or cutting it altogether and replacing with forests. I usually don't want to sink mana into it unless I'm already winning. The spare mana I have that I COULD have spent on it I tend to save for a rootborn defense or a charm in hand just in case. At least Grove gives a game changer. I really don't want to...but should we consider the Keyrune?:/
I like Primal Hunter personally because of the big token right away or even just using him as an expensive hand refill then letting him die. I'm fine with a person wasting a Dreadbore on him rather than the Grove Elemental I'll drop next turn and slap Rancor onto. PLus if we DO get the ultimate...Sweet Jesus...:O
EDIT: Thoughts of Mikeaous the Lunarch? Possible Mana sink for dead turns, lightning rod for removal, and pumping our evasion/trampling creatures
Ok, I like your thinking. Im going to do some brewing and get back to you tomorrow. Good stuff!
Thank you. I'm going to try to use your deck out and see how it works. I kind of like the Gather the Townsfolk over Avacyn's Pilgrim. At this point, my view of the deck is to get damage through through evasion and trample. Any card that lets us do that while proliferating tokens is to be considered. I feel like Mikaeus The Lunarch does just that. He's like an anthem on a stick that gradually gets bigger.
Core so far:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Call of the Conclave
Eh, you're right. Last night wasn't a highlight of tokens - however I was also playing like a dumbass. Your UW list does need work though, I thought we played it a lot more than once. To much magic lately - three hours of playing the same few decks blurs them all together.
Modern:
Abzan Company
Abzan Midrange
GB Collected Elves
Legacy:
Junkblade
EDH:
Erebos, God of Black
You won't like Omnath when he's angry...
CEDH:
Meren, Clan of Vzlue
But this is my skeleton right now:
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
3x Thragtusk
3x Mikaeus, the Lunarch
2x Trostani
Instant (3)
3x Selesnya Charm
Sorcery (8)
4x Call of the Conclave
4x Lingering Souls
2x Revenge of the Hunted
4x Intangible Virtue
Planeswalker (7)
4x Garruk Relentless
3x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
Land (24)
5x Forest
2x Gavony Township
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Plains
4x Sunpetal Grove
1x Swamp
4x Temple Garden
I wouldn't count Sorin out yet.
Personally I don't like the idea of an expensive overkill enchantment, and would rather just play the miracle version.
Trostani is probably decent in here.
I mean, I know the first post says no black, but most people would rather not make a separate deck thread. Tokens needs black as a splash IMO. Lingering Souls is just that good.
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so basically, excluding trostani, you don't run a single populate card...
i don't agree with using avacyn's pilgrim over arbor elf. since we are using temple garden, arbor elf can give us both G and W mana and allows us to play temple garden untapped without losing 2 lives if we want/need.
by the way there is already a thread about Junk tokens, so there are already two separate threads
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
A few things..
1. Why no Midnight Haunting?
2. I like the idea of Entreat the Angels as a one of in the deck, worse case its 2 4/4 flyers for 7.
3. Didn't think about adding Mikaeus, the Lunarch, need some playtesting to see if that works in the deck, I tried it in previous decks and it just always seemed to die, but in the new format maybe it will be better.
4. What about the new populate cards like the one for 1G that prevents all combat damage to you or Rootborn Defenses?
I'm a little hesitant about the Collective Blessing... I see it as MAYBE a two-of but... it's so mana expensive! By the time we drop it, shouldn't we be winning already? I also feel like I should squeeze an Oblivion Ring or two...or three, but I don't know where. I also feel like more flying tokens are needed. That repopulate + birds spell doesn't seem to cut it and Lingering Souls...well ths isn't a Junk build haha. Hm...The lone Wayfaring Temple seems a little odd. It isn't pretty but it gets the job done. I feel like I'm just missing...SOMETHING. Garruk's ultimate absolutely SLAYS though, and his card draw with Wayfaring is always fun to do. I feel like we need a more definitive token engine. The new guildmage just seems too mana extensive...you got to pump six mana for a single token, granted all the ones past that cost four but that's still alot. I'm considering replacing Wayfaring with Growing Ranks and then one or two more cards, like a Rancor or something. It seems stable enough...MAYBE drop a plains for one...
The sideboard is sizing up well enough though
Real basic, but I like it haha. Zombies get sad haha.
it's very hard sometimes to have something to populate. UW control has so many way to destroy our token army:
supreme verdict
terminus
oblivion ring
detention sphere
azorius charm
rootborn defense actually protect us only from supreme verdict.
a bit better with jund, where it gives us protection from dreadbore and abrupt decay, but also jund has his way around it with mutilate.
it's nice and fun to play but it' hard to keep up with these 2 archetypes
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
3x Gavony Township
4x Temple Garden
4x Sunpetal Grove
6x Forest
5x Plains
1x Grove of the Guardian
4x Doomed Traveler
4x Mayor of Avabruck
4x Champion of Lambholt
Enchantments (4):
4x Intangible Virtue
Instants (14):
4x Rootborn Defenses
4x Druid's Deliverance
3x Midnight Haunting
3x Selesnya Charm
4x Call of the Conclave
Planeswalkers (3):
3x Ajani, Caller of the Pride
What I wanted to do was use Champion of Lambholt to it's maximum potential. There are several ways of doing this in the deck:
+Populate
+Token producing spells such as Midnight Haunting, Call of the Conclave, and Selesnya Charm.
+Creatures that produce tokens such as Mayor of Avabruck and Doomed Traveler.
+Cards that add +1/+1 counters to Champion of Lambholt such as Ajani, Caller of the Pride and Gavony Township.
I think there's good synergy in this deck but I'm worried if it's too weak in the long run. I'll try some playtesting with proxies and see how it turns out.
Thoughts?
Why are you worried about mana base? Collective Blessing is a win condition, especially in a less aggro Meta that Wizards designed. MaRo has straight up said that they are trying to extend the standard into a more midrange format. Meaning more T6 to T8 games where collective blessing will truly be a win condition.
Currently Playing:
WGW/G HumansGW
WUW/U SpiritsUW
WGG/W TokensGW
URU/R ProwessRU
How do we incorporate the new Armada Wurm? I see it as a two of for sure if we can ramp fast enough. The token alone is worth it if the real one dies. Populate the field with those beasts, haha. What to take out though? Maybe drop Rancor to two and cut the Wayfaring? Everything else seems too needed really...
mdshamess, I feel like your deck needs a few mana dorks to get the best out of it. Are the four tombs enough to reliably get the flashback on the Lingering Souls? I also like you should squeeze a Rancor or two in there... I think Phantom General can be replaced by Growing Ranks, too. At the cost, you can get out more tokens and its not as prone to removal. Maybe drop one or two Gavony for a Grove of the Guardian? I feel like the big token is needed at times.
Currently Playing:
WGW/G HumansGW
WUW/U SpiritsUW
WGG/W TokensGW
URU/R ProwessRU
I will later add Possibly Armada wurm, very fat, decent, would be an excellent populate target.
Eyes in the Skies
Security Blockade
Deadbridge Goliath
Horncaller's Chant
Oak Street Innkeeper
Slime Molding (Slightly discussed, but I think it deserves another look)
Loxodon Smiter
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
Trostani, Voice of the Conclave
Dryad Militant
Growing Ranks
Judge's Familiar
These are cards just from Return to Ravnica that are the only 'viable' cards we haven't DISCUSSED discussed. A few of them have been touched on, but not that much. I'm not saying I'm an expert on the deck, but lets try to look a little closer to the cards available. I think of we should look at the options from M13 and Innistrad block in the same way, card by card for each person to see. Lets spark a discussion and breathe new life into this deck.
Eyes in the Skies:
Alright, so this card isn't that too impressive. At first glance, it looks like a worse Midnight Haunting/Lingering Souls. It costs one more mana and it produces only a 1/1 Bird and if you play it by itself, then you get two 1/1 Birds. That's a profit of two flying 1/1's for 4cmc. Not liking that at first, but what if we combine it with our other tokens? Now this might be considered 'too cute' for some players, and I can respect that, but here is a list of tokens that we use so far:
Spirit Tokens, 1/1 Flying
Centaur Tokens, 3/3
Knight Tokens, 2/2 Vigilance
Elemental Tokens, 8/8 Vigilance
Now this isn't factoring in Intangible Virtue or Collective Blessing, but if you care to include those, then these tokens obviously grow, haha. So is that 4cmc populate + a Bird worth it? Let's look at the card again. I choose to see it instead as basically reading Populate, here's a bird. I wouldn't mind getting another Centaur or an Elemental and another threat in the sky. This card obviously isn't as good as Rootborn Defense or Druid's Deliverance, and is nowhere as good as Sundering Growth, but it MAY be DECENT as a one-of or two-of if a list has room.
Security Blockade
This could be seen as a slower Call of the Conclave or a lesser Selesnya Charm. Its not game changing, but the prevention of 1 damage a turn might be relevant. A couple Burn and RDW threads are popping up already, and casting this turn 2, factoring in a turn one mana dork and two land drops, could help in that match up along with a relevant token to protect with.
T1: Arbor Elf/Avacyn's Pilgrim
T2: Security Blockade
Field: a 1/1 Mana Dork and a 2/2 Vigilence Knight Token
compared to Call of the Conclave
T1: Arbor Elf/Avacyn's Pilgrim
T2: Call of the Conclave
Field: a 1/1 Mana Dork and a 3/3 Centaur token. Not all the different except one open mana
Compared to Midnight Haunting
T1: Arbor Elf/Avacyn's Pilgrim
T2: Midnight Haunting
Field: Dork and two 1/1 flying Spirits.
Any of these plays are decisive turn twos. The Haunting Option I think is best, followed by Centaur, then the Security Blockade, but again, stopping a few points of damage from burning MAY be enough to warrant a sideboard slot or two. Again, its cute...
Deadbridge Goliath
This guy is just big. Sometimes a beater is just needed, haha. I could see this being somewhat of a plan B or even part of Plan A. Use a few tokens and this guy, then when field wipes happen, swarm with more tokens and Scavenge this guy to help rebuild the swarm. Scavenging it shouldn't be too hard with out mana base, and the nice +5/+5 to a flyer with anthem effects already in play sounds appealing, ESPECIALLY since the opponent just so kindly wiped the board, haha. This guy with a Rancor thrown on is a must answer threat. a 7/5 just smashing through is dangerous, then you can transfer all 7 of that power sine Rancor is just so cool and brings itself back. It really doesn't need that much of an explanation. If Armada Wurms can't be used, budget or none in stock, I could see using this in Armada's slot.
Horncaller's Chant
This is strictly almost a lesser, green only Armada Wurm. For 8cmc, you get two 4/4 tramplers instead of 6cmc and 2 5/5 tramplers. Granted, this could populate the field with another token, like the aforementioned Eyes in the Skies, but this is just really expensive. Again, budgets could use this over Armada. Usually, I'd populate the Rhino token instead of a Spirit or a Centaur, but if a Elemental is out, then...no still...no...
Oak Street Innkeeper
If we really want to get aggressive, then this could be useful, haha. U/W Spirits is using Drogskol Captain to hexproof their tokens, and we may be able to use this. Its worth testing at least. Bring this guy out, attack with the swarm, then during the opponents when they swing in kind, respond with the Druid's Deliverance, haha. Troll to the opponent, and you get another token!:D With enough flyers and tramplers, the damage should be getting through especially if you hardcore swing each turn. This card encourages aggressive plays, and with our anthems, I think we can pull it off. The deck may have to be a little more adjusted to fully utilize him, however. I like the feel of it, haha. After our tired spirits and giant grove elemental are done attacking, they go to an Inn, haha. The spirits haunt it and somehow the entire grove fits in there, haha.
Slime Molding (Slightly discussed, but I think it deserves another look)
Got spare mana? We got a one time mana sink, haha! This could be useful if we have a starting hand full of mana dorks and a few repopulate spells that are just sitting there. In previous green decks, I dread hands where I have two Llanowar Elves and a Bird of Paradise and a few lands. This could SLIGHTLY make that better, haha. Not to say that is its only application. Just needing to get a big creature out quickly is justification enough I think. Only one or two though. Spare one more mana, and you can Rancor for awesomeness. Grove of the Guardian drops as an 8/8, but it requires technically six lands and I usually tap useless mana dorks for the rest of the requirements.so looking at eight 'mana' really. You could sink that much into this and get a 7/7 if that appeals to you at all. I feel like some people may prefer this versatility.
Loxodon Smiter
I see this as a potential side. I've seen a few decks popping up abusing Rakdos's Return and Rat Tribal and the discard-into-play ability is relevant, especially on a pleasant 4/4 body. He's a vanilla once he hits, but hey, most of our creatures are. Rancor him and let him smite away. His other ability is relevant as well. Side it into the deck vs control and we have a threat around the midmatch that the opponent can't counter. I consider that good enough to warrant a spot or two. I don't know about the main deck, though. A more aggressive Selesnya deck could make better use of him.
Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
So another mana sink. This Bear creates more Centaurs if you need them, but I think its second ability is more important. Sinking mana and making more evasive flyers or more Grove Guardians if you have one, haha. He isn't immediately useful so the opponent probably won't waste removal on him. Thats a mistake. Cards that fly under the radar are nice. Being able to repopulate every turn is extremely relevant and this card can help stabilize after a board wipe. I have yet to test it, but it might be useful.
Trostani, Voice of the Conclave
I don't know how to feel about this card. We can drop this turn three with a dork and we may be able to utilize its first ability once or twice. But to what end? Our tokens come in as 1/1 or 2/2, or at best 3/3. If we get this going then an Elemental token, the 8/8 one, might make this relevant enough. Its second ability...I'd rather just have growing Ranks. I don't think this card should be good enough...
Dryad Militant
A sideboard card at most, although it is extremely aggressive. It shuts down a few decks if it gets out fast enough, although it easily dies to removal. If you like Elite Vanguard, then use this as such, haha. Better disruption is the also new, Rest in Peace.
Growing Ranks
I kind of love this card in here. I want to put in at least two of them. Trostani should have had this as her static ability. The ability to gain a +1 in card advantage each turn, especially on evasive tokens, in my opinion is extremely relevant. We can drop this turn three with a mana dork and with many ways to make tokens turn two, this card is amazing!
Judge's Familiar
Another evasive pinger, except we can drop this turn one and use it to control the opponent's turn one. However, I prefer a turn one mana dork...I could see siding it, but I wouldn't main a full four.
What thoughts does everyone all have on this?
Here's my build right now:
token generators: we need tokens on the field if we want to populate, that's a fact. call of the conclave and slime molding creates very nice tokens, but only one of them. this most of the times means that if we don't have 3 mana open and a rootborn defense in hand, next turn we won't have anything to populate. for this reason midnight hunting and gather the townsfolk are better choices even if they produce 1/1s.
populate: that's what we want to do, and we have plenty of tools to do it, which ones should we choose? probably the ones that make us do thing we'd do anyway, so a big yes to rootborn defense and druid's deliverance. another great card is growing ranks: if not answered quickly it makes our swarm very dangerous, and it's card advantage every turn.
creatures: the only creature wee need early in the game is arbor elf, obviously better than avacyn's pilgrim as he can give us both g and w mana. trostani, selesnya's voice is great: wall, lifegain, populate. but i wouldn't put her on field asap. wait for when we have anough mana to protect her, if we manage to get her to stick in the field it's a nightmare for our opponents. vitu-ghazi, guildmage costs 2, but in my opinion is a late game card, to use after a supreme verdict or bonfire we couldn't defended from, to get our populating chain restarted.
wayfaring temple...meh. let me be clear, if it works is amazing, but that's a big IF. if there are not tokens on field he's useless, if there are tokens he's probably our biggest creature, so he's going to be blocked and not activate his ability (unless we give him trample). he's more of a win-more.
excellent exclusions: Sigarda, Host of Herons and Loxodon Smiter: very good cards, but not useful to our plan. they are a must in an aggro/midrange build, but that's a different deck.
i'm not sure yet about armada wurm. if we want to abuse him, we need to build around him. we need resto angel, cloudshift and so on, cards that don't go well with tokens.
so, considering all this, that's my list
2 Trostani, Selesnya's voice
2 Vitu-ghazi guildmage
1 Wayfaring temple
4 Midnight haunting
4 Selesnya charm
4 Rootborn defense
4 Druid's deliverance
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Farseek
2 Call of the Conclave
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Grove of the Guardian
2 Gavony Township
6 Forest
4 Plains
Pioneer: WURFaerie fires BRGDragons
ModernBGElves WRBurn UR Fires Turns URGift Storm UG Twiddle Storm
Currently Playing:
WGW/G HumansGW
WUW/U SpiritsUW
WGG/W TokensGW
URU/R ProwessRU
Honestly, I dont like the deck. Some parts are fine but others seem too trick based. You have at most 11 ways to originally get tokens on the board. That is way too low IMO. Two more Calls, probably gather the townsfolk since it's cheap to cast. You also have too many ways to get populate since you dont have many token generators.
Also, I dont think using Selesnya Charm as a token generator is very good. It's a utility card so it should be used as such.
Your mana is low even with 3 farseeks. I'd add one more farseek and probably another land.
I think Druid's deliverance isnt very good but love rootborn defense. Either deliverance is protecting you from early damage instead of you making tokens or it's used late game when you should already be winning. I'd keep three of the Rootborn though because they protect your creatures even when there are no tokens.
Phantom general and even collective bargaining(my choice) are also late game options that could finish them quick.
I dont want to seem like Im totally crushing your deck but heres an option you may want to test?
4 Call of the Conclave
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 midnight haunting
4 arbor elf
4 farseek
2 trostani
4 intangible virtue
3 rootborn defense
3 selesnya charm
2 wayfarer's temple
2 growing ranks
24 land-just add a plains
This gives you 17 token generators and 9 ways to make them populate. You could even take out the arbor elfs since most of your spells cost 3 or less and put in 3 doomed traveler and add another growing ranks. That would up your tokens even more and give you 10 populate options.
This is just my opinion though!
Good point. I'm so used to needing it in the decks I've been testing but in this deck...there really isnt a need for it and it just wastes a turn. Thanks for the imput! I would probably use it for a GWb variant though that includes the awesome Lingering spirits but not this deck.
Sounds just about perfect to me. The cheaper Garruk would be my preference in this list. He's easier to cast,quicker to hit the board, and has a somewhat relevant removal ability if needed. His tokens have handy deathtouch as well. Outside of that, his flipped abilities suck(for this deck) but you cant have everything! Seriously though, 3 green can be tough to get unless we work the mana base a bit.
I like Primal Hunter personally because of the big token right away or even just using him as an expensive hand refill then letting him die. I'm fine with a person wasting a Dreadbore on him rather than the Grove Elemental I'll drop next turn and slap Rancor onto. PLus if we DO get the ultimate...Sweet Jesus...:O
EDIT: Thoughts of Mikeaous the Lunarch? Possible Mana sink for dead turns, lightning rod for removal, and pumping our evasion/trampling creatures
Ok, I like your thinking. Im going to do some brewing and get back to you tomorrow. Good stuff!
Core so far:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Call of the Conclave
3-4 Selesnya Charm
3-4 Rootborn Defenses
3-4 Rancor
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Growing Ranks
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
7 Forest
6 Plains
2 Grove of the Guardian
1 Gavony Township
That leaves about 8-10ish flex spots I feel.
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Call of the Conclave
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Rootborn Defenses
4 Rancor
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Growing Ranks
4 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
7 Forest
6 Plains
2 Grove of the Guardian
1 Gavony Township
I want to try to test Mikey, but what to take out...I think a Rancor. What do you think? I also feel like I don't have enough populate spells...
MAYBE:
-2 Garruk
-1 Rancor
-1 Rootborn
+1 Mikeaus
+3 Druid's Deliverance