It just seems that Undying is hated because it would take an extra turn to go to the grave, the other thing is it only counts if it was already played. If it was milled it stays there. (If only Undying brought cards from the grave no matter where they came from)
I don't see how undying creatures would be any better in this deck than in a straight aggro. If something doesn't support splinterfright or ghoultree, or doesn't in specific work really well against certain kinds of decks, I don't see why it should be played just for the sake of having the dredge "feel" to it.
I run 3 geists and rarely ever have a problem needing to cast them on turn 4.
@majiger: That's one of great points he mentions. You can run more than 3 geists cause u don't want to throw them on empty table. You want to "catch" something with them and u won't cast them turn 4 if there's nothin on your way or if u can cast ghoultrees or other heavy hitters. Geists are here to shut treats you don't want to hit into or to remove blockers. I find them insanely good.
I've found another, at once ridiculus and serious problem.
Undead Alchemist - just killed me. I couldn't mill and I couldn't not help him winning. Only Ghoultrees worked and I got no mana to cast them.
That's a painful one and really problematic. Anyway, it's great tech versus the mirror even if u don't have more zombies than 3 kinds (Screeching, Armored meybe Ruinator) and Alchemist in the deck, but it just kills this deck if pervious turn was a nihil bomb.
Removal or you're screwed.
Do any of you think that there is room for Geralf's Mindcrusher in our current build. Why or why not?
I'm very curious to see how it does. In a deck that plays Dream Twist, it is nearly an alternate wincon. Control decks play Nephalia Drownyard as an alternate wincon with a focus on using it to finish off other control players. What do you all think of blowing through a control deck with 3-4 Dream Twist and a couple of Mind Crushers? Is it viable?
Just browsing through the cards on mtgo, figured I'd post a few I haven't seen mentioned. Maybe it will spark some ideas, or maybe they will all be duds. Either way, all ideas are worth discussing.
Arachnus Spinner
6 mana is a lot, but the arachnid does answer a lot of problems plaguing this deck. It's a huge body with reach. On top of that Arachnus Spinner allows us to play some removal without fear of milling it. This removal is of course Arachnus Web. Adding these 2 cards opens the door for Spider Spawning and a light Black splash. If going 3 color, I think this is a better route than adding Red for Faithless Looting.
I've found another, at once ridiculus and serious problem.
Undead Alchemist - just killed me. I couldn't mill and I couldn't not help him winning. Only Ghoultrees worked and I got no mana to cast them.
That's a painful one and really problematic. Anyway, it's great tech versus the mirror even if u don't have more zombies than 3 kinds (Screeching, Armored meybe Ruinator) and Alchemist in the deck, but it just kills this deck if pervious turn was a nihil bomb.
Removal or you're screwed.
Man, I know the feeling. Been there, done that. But I don't think he is really that played a card? Answers are plentiful too, swipers and point removal.
Just browsing through the cards on mtgo, figured I'd post a few I haven't seen mentioned. Maybe it will spark some ideas, or maybe they will all be duds. Either way, all ideas are worth discussing.
Arachnus Spinner
6 mana is a lot, but the arachnid does answer a lot of problems plaguing this deck. It's a huge body with reach. On top of that Arachnus Spinner allows us to play some removal without fear of milling it. This removal is of course Arachnus Web. Adding these 2 cards opens the door for Spider Spawning and a light Black splash. If going 3 color, I think this is a better route than adding Red for Faithless Looting.
Arachnus... I don't know, it just feels so clumsy. 6 mana CERTAINLY is a lot of mana. I don't know if I'd want to go tapped out just because of this. It would take quite many slots, and won't answer big threats or Crusaders.
Niblis of the breath is funny, but he just seems like a wetted version of dungeon geists. With the exception that he consumes mana, doesn't lockdown continuously, can't hit for 3 in the air, and is easier to kill. meh.
Melira is cool, but she does't serve this deck any more than any other green deck
(EDIT: sorry for being such a dull person, I do not intend to kill the conversation or make harsh-ish comments just for the sake of it)
I've played against someone running self mill with Arachnus Spinner and Spider Spawning. In order to make the deck work he had to run a lot of non creatures something like 20 only, and he got mana screwed a bit too. Additionally, the deck just wasn't that good. The only reason he won the games is because this deck was much slower/worse at the time (only birds for mana ramp, still using looters, no metamorphs, etc).
If you want a combat trick look at Feeling of Dread it's in white which is the easiest splash and has a blue flashback. It costs less mana than Deceiver Exarch too.
Just browsing through the cards on mtgo, figured I'd post a few I haven't seen mentioned. Maybe it will spark some ideas, or maybe they will all be duds. Either way, all ideas are worth discussing.
Arachnus Spinner
6 mana is a lot, but the arachnid does answer a lot of problems plaguing this deck. It's a huge body with reach. On top of that Arachnus Spinner allows us to play some removal without fear of milling it. This removal is of course Arachnus Web. Adding these 2 cards opens the door for Spider Spawning and a light Black splash. If going 3 color, I think this is a better route than adding Red for Faithless Looting.
I like these ideas, but as we've learned adding a 3rd color creates consistency issues. I'm really tempted to try Spiders though. Arachnus Web is very intriguing. I like Nibilis of Breath, but Nibilis of the Urn would be a much better option as white is very easy to splash with Birds and Pilgrims. While its tap ability only works offensively it is free, costing no further mana investment. An argument has been made for Nibilis of Breath before as a way to nuke Illusions, but Artful Dodge already does a very nice job. Infect is a big problem because most of their threats fly, but I find that I see maybe 1 or 2 infect players out of 30 at my LGS on Fridays.
Although she has synergy with milling bombs in your yard then recurring them for free.
The more I look through these cards, the more I feel like there's supposed to be a UB Zombie Mill Deck. There are so many UB cards that mill and are Zombies. That's a whole different deck, but it might be worth looking into.
Although she has synergy with milling bombs in your yard then recurring them for free.
The more I look through these cards, the more I feel like there's supposed to be a UB Zombie Mill Deck. There are so many UB cards that mill and are Zombies. That's a whole different deck, but it might be worth looking into.
If black is discussed, Sheoldred seems like the most interesting one to me. Seven mana is huge, but not impossible. If you really want to push it, then mana dorks, emissaries and mulches will take you there on turn 6, i think.
Although, I'm not too sure about fatties. It has always seemed to me, that the reason this deck works (when it works) is that you get really big for really cheap. Bringing back splinterfrights would be terrific, but there are few issues. If the game has lasted that long, I think we should really be the winning side already. Of course her ability is really, really powerful, it has to start rolling first, and that might take time. Maybe Sheoldred isn't quite fast enough?
I personally like Sun Titan, and what makes him big, other than being cheaper & more splashable, is that he gives card advantage right away. If sheodred gets removed, you tapped out for a big pile of nothing, and that mana could have been spent on something else, then. Sun Titan, on the other hand, gives us value right away and must be answered all the same. Also, he would give us Splinterfrights from the grave with an advantage of getting two turns ahead of Sheoldred.
It could be tried, but is the sac effect wortth it?
EDIT: personally, I always end up having few frights in the yard, even if they are not getting removed from the table. recurring armored skaabs is also a good option, chump blocker againts pro green techs and milling 4.
EDIT2: also, increasing ambition is a bit like unburial rites -i don't see it being worth it, because we don't "really" have great reanimation/tutoring targets. I don't want to spend 4 mana to bring frights back, because Sun Titan and postmortem lunge do the job better in my opinion, with a BIG surprise element. Also, I think that faithless looting would be needed to make both of these cards viable... that's really too long a way.
Second, while the notion of punching faces with bombs like Geralf's Mindcrusher, Sheoldred and Vorapede is very attractive, it really does make it a different deck.
The essence of this deck is to come out swinging early with Ghoultrees and Splinterfrights and to handle our opponents toughest creatures with Metamorphs and Dungeon Geists. If we deviate into ramping into fatties, it becomes a different deck. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just keep in mind what the shell of the deck is as we develop competitively.
On that note, the bad thing about the Arachnus Spinner is that it costs the same as a titan. It cannot trade with any of them, and can only successfully block a Sun Titan or Primeval Titan without keeling over. Inferno will dome it and then crush it, Grave has deathtouch, and Frost will tap it down. [Edited for accuracy. I thought the Spinner had 6 power.]
Now, in addition to our weaknesses against certain archetypes, we have a weakness to a game element as well--tempo. We are landing our best creatures around the same time that other decks are finding their Nihil Spellbombs, targeted removal, and board wipes. This is very bad. To me, this is the main thing holding this deck back. It's an all or nothing gambit that puts us in a very vulnerable position. If we don't draw Tracker's Instincts we are dead in the water after a Nihil, or board wipe, and recovery is made even more difficult when we don't hit at least 5-6 land drops.
The Townships are in place of the Buried Ruins, though I just slid them over to the sb for testing. I'm also trying the One-Eyed Scarecrow in the sb for anti-Spirits tech, and it's... OK. The problem is that it doesn't kill the tokens, and one anthem means they're potent again... which is a problem with the darn Vault of the Archangel.
I'm not really sure how I like the white splash, but it's actually made my one-of KCB in the side utterly insane. Activate it after the wolves spawn. You'll go like :/ Seriously.
Hopefully our utility land from AVR will be this good. It's been interesting to test, but it's still weak to Delver. Bleh. Though now I can handle zombies fairly well!
I don't see how undying creatures would be any better in this deck than in a straight aggro. If something doesn't support splinterfright or ghoultree, or doesn't in specific work really well against certain kinds of decks, I don't see why it should be played just for the sake of having the dredge "feel" to it.
It's not for the Dredge "feel" that I am talking about undying. It's because a single Extraction means no more Splinterfright or Ghoultrees. Then what?
Yes you still have other cards but the reason we are self milling so much is to pump these guys and get them big turn 3/4 and swing for huge damage.
But what if, yes I know a what if, turn 2 you get one of these in the graveyard and ANY deck uses extraction paying 2 life to get rid of all 4 copies?
I mean there goes the big bomb we are playing around and making these deck choices for. So why not have a back-up plan?
I don't see how 4 Undying cards would hurt this deck at all. Seeing how only one would be a really big card, Voropede, everything else is under 3 cmc.
It's not for the Dredge "feel" that I am talking about undying. It's because a single Extraction means no more Splinterfright or Ghoultrees. Then what?
Yes you still have other cards but the reason we are self milling so much is to pump these guys and get them big turn 3/4 and swing for huge damage.
But what if, yes I know a what if, turn 2 you get one of these in the graveyard and ANY deck uses extraction paying 2 life to get rid of all 4 copies?
I mean there goes the big bomb we are playing around and making these deck choices for. So why not have a back-up plan?
I don't see how 4 Undying cards would hurt this deck at all. Seeing how only one would be a really big card, Voropede, everything else is under 3 cmc.
That's why the sideboard strategy is the way it is. Post board we have 5-6 viable threats (Skaab Ruinator, Splinterfright, Boneyard Wurm, Ghoultree, Kessig Cagebreakers, Spider Spawning... if you want to include it) but only 8-12 slots in the deck for big creatures. The result is you're able to run 2-3 of multiple creatures which significantly reduces the impact of extraction. Besides, our creatures getting hit with extraction really isn't this decks weak point. The weak point is what happens when the opponent hits Tracker's Instincts with an extraction. That's a far bigger blow, and one that undying creatures doesn't solve.
As a final point, when a Vorapede, Geist, or whatever else dies and it's undying trigger is on the stack the opponent can use extraction and hit all four of them so Undying doesn't really add any resilience against extraction. If they have the card they can still do some damage with it.
That's why the sideboard strategy is the way it is. Post board we have 5-6 viable threats (Skaab Ruinator, Splinterfright, Boneyard Wurm, Ghoultree, Kessig Cagebreakers, Spider Spawning... if you want to include it) but only 8-12 slots in the deck for big creatures. The result is you're able to run 2-3 of multiple creatures which significantly reduces the impact of extraction. Besides, our creatures getting hit with extraction really isn't this decks weak point. The weak point is what happens when the opponent hits Tracker's Instincts with an extraction. That's a far bigger blow, and one that undying creatures doesn't solve.
As a final point, when a Vorapede, Geist, or whatever else dies and it's undying trigger is on the stack the opponent can use extraction and hit all four of them so Undying doesn't really add any resilience against extraction. If they have the card they can still do some damage with it.
Ahh right, I forgot about the stack interaction of Undying. My bad. I wish we had more cards like Skaab Ruinator but oh well.
I've been playing on mws with the list in the OP, spashing white, same sideboard. How the hell is this developping competitive? correct me if I'm wrong, but we have no good matchups. zero. after 4 hours of playing, I'm at a whopping score of 2-18. not making these numbers up, people. on those 30 or so games, I mulliganed half of my starting hands (the deck mulligans like a *****, by the way). I played against:
delver
flipped your delver on the play? yeah sure, I'll start the game at 11 life. oh wait, you have the mana leak for my dungeon geist? SURE! let's play another game in which my sideboard is LIFEGAIN.
wolf run
TITANS! INFECT CREATURES WE CAN'T BLOCK! JOY!
UB control
nothing sticks. ruinators get dissipated. yes, I played around them.
UB zombies
Actually beat this one, due to multiple gnaws and him drwing 1 geralf both games. woohoo.
Naya hellrider
dead by turn 4 because he shocked my mana dorks and I was stuck with a hand full of ghoultrees and ruinators which I could not cast
tempered steel
flyersr. faster clock than ours. double TS draws all day, erry day.
tokens
Survived the intitial flying onslaught? it's game two and you ray of revelation'd my anthems? I CAN STILL PULL A VAULT OUOT OF MY ASS AND WIN THE RACE! SCREW YOU DREDGE!
I don't want to sound ungrateful. I don't want to sound like a whiny idiot. I really don't. but it's 4 am, and I've just lost my 14th game in a row to some genius playing tokens and drawing vault EXACTLY when I have lethal. And no, before you ask, I am not missplaying like an idiot. for some reason, the deck just can't win. is it the mws factor? is it the bad shuffler? is it the fact that people play maindeck distress+extraction IN TOKENS?
Surgical extraction and nihil spellbomb certainly do screw this deck, but undying doesn't really add resilience, at least in my opinion. I've played with geists, but it wasn't really doing any wonders at all for me. I think the best we can do, without losing too much focus, is to play mental missteps and memory's journeys. 4 + 2 should really make us get around those cards quite consistently. Ruinator is, as it has been said, a great way to tangle with control anyway. The only that I see running spellbombs pretty consistenly in SB is UB control, but not many other decks. I think this the kind of thing we have to just live with. Every deck does have their bad match-ups, after all.
I've been playing on mws with the list in the OP, spashing white, same sideboard. How the hell is this developping competitive? correct me if I'm wrong, but we have no good matchups. zero. after 4 hours of playing, I'm at a whopping score of 2-18. not making these numbers up, people. on those 30 or so games, I mulliganed half of my starting hands (the deck mulligans like a *****, by the way). I played against:
delver
flipped your delver on the play? yeah sure, I'll start the game at 11 life. oh wait, you have the mana leak for my dungeon geist? SURE! let's play another game in which my sideboard is LIFEGAIN.
wolf run
TITANS! INFECT CREATURES WE CAN'T BLOCK! JOY!
UB control
nothing sticks. ruinators get dissipated. yes, I played around them.
UB zombies
Actually beat this one, due to multiple gnaws and him drwing 1 geralf both games. woohoo.
Naya hellrider
dead by turn 4 because he shocked my mana dorks and I was stuck with a hand full of ghoultrees and ruinators which I could not cast
tempered steel
flyersr. faster clock than ours. double TS draws all day, erry day.
tokens
Survived the intitial flying onslaught? it's game two and you ray of revelation'd my anthems? I CAN STILL PULL A VAULT OUOT OF MY ASS AND WIN THE RACE! SCREW YOU DREDGE!
I don't want to sound ungrateful. I don't want to sound like a whiny idiot. I really don't. but it's 4 am, and I've just lost my 14th game in a row to some genius playing tokens and drawing vault EXACTLY when I have lethal. And no, before you ask, I am not missplaying like an idiot. for some reason, the deck just can't win. is it the mws factor? is it the bad shuffler? is it the fact that people play maindeck distress+extraction IN TOKENS?
I just rotflstomp aggro like a boss with 4 following cards at main:
4x Splinterfight, Boneyard, Ghoultree
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Artful Dodge (I've found one too less many times, it just plain wins games)
3x Dungeon Geists
Also for me, viridian emissary is rubish here. I don't use metamorphs and titans, I would just copy Dungeon Geists with metamorphs or some swords etc. nothing else probably of my interest except killing legendaries.
For me, you're just piloting it badly. I'm having much fun with it and your list seems bad.
Splashing white just to use sideboard cards? It's wasted consistency post board. Either pack O-rings or try Feeling of Dread (four tapped blockers most times mean death to anyone). And you use too less gnaws, always have atleast 2 mainboard and additional 2 sideboard. If you side all four, without gravehate they can't win any race. You're playing it wrong I think.
You build your graveyard, lose a bit of life while gettin fatties in. Then just Gnaw one or two times for enought life to steadly win the race with artful dodge or mentioned previously feeling of dread. That card is just bad against tokens but otherwise just shines letting you kill players or strain planeswalkers.
I'll post my list later, when It takes it's final shape. But I also run just 2 birds of paradise. Yes, it's nice to hit them t1, but it's not required cause the only thing you could cast t2 faster thanks to birds is Armored Skaab or in your example, an Metamorph. Which isn't much of a deal while mulch and tracker's both cost 2 to hardcast. Imo too much mana dorks becomes wasted slots. Mill and hit hard. If they can't have bigger stuff than you, just win.
I use to call this deck a 12-Goyf, because you know. What's the best aggressive green creature around ever? It's tarmogoyf, and if I can play 12 of them, and just one of them costs 3 and rest most times are cheaper, then I'm really playing heavy beatsticks. Concentrate on cutting your opponents in half. I encourage you to use 2 artful dodges and just either forget about that white splash or just pack some usefull white stuff mainboard. Otherwise you're doing it bad here. If you can't use something in your hand or in your yard past some key cards, it's bad. Your white-green duals just slow you past turn 3 and thats makes your preboard worse while giving you a "chance" for better sideboard options postboard.
I've killed: Zombies UB, MonoRed Goblins, 12-Swordsman (or just 12-Swords deck), Hellrider RG, UB Control and regular Wolf Run, lost just hardly just once against someone I can't remember but that wasn't due to hard matchup but due to my unlucky muligans, draws and mills that game (18 cards in gy, 4 creatures milled so far).
I'm not saying that I lose, I never lose "hard". If I lose, it's close game or I just screwed or my draws were ****ty and mills not good enought, that's what I've been seeing since I've beginned intense testing. The worst matchup is against decks with spellbomb in sideboards atm. Will still test more, need to get more confident.
I've been playing on mws with the list in the OP, spashing white, same sideboard. How the hell is this developping competitive? correct me if I'm wrong, but we have no good matchups. zero. after 4 hours of playing, I'm at a whopping score of 2-18. not making these numbers up, people. on those 30 or so games, I mulliganed half of my starting hands (the deck mulligans like a *****, by the way). I played against:
....
[/DECK]
How long have you played? It could be the eperience factor as well (with this specific deck, of course!) I have read that other people's results have been greatly better. I do not think that this deck is, at least vastly, inferior to those established decks. I personally run Snapcaster and mulch, which many find odd, but perhaps you could look into those choices as well. There are quite many variations of this deck.
EDIT: I agree with Azurie about stomping aggro. Almost everytime ghoultrees and gnaws have simply killed their attemps of winning. It's almost funny, really.
The only time i have lost to an extraction was when they pulled my gnaws and that was against U/W spirits.
I have had splinterfrights pulled, trackers pulled, hell i think even ghoultree and yet still managed to win.
Not to boast, but after all the discussion and testing in the old thread, i personally think i probably have one of the best decklists for this deck.
Ive been playing it for a while now and ive had plenty of time to fine tune it against just about everything.
If you cannot win with this deck then you are not playing it correctly. This is probably one of the best flowing decks i have ever played.
I've been playing on mws with the list in the OP, spashing white, same sideboard. How the hell is this developping competitive? correct me if I'm wrong, but we have no good matchups. zero. after 4 hours of playing, I'm at a whopping score of 2-18. not making these numbers up, people. on those 30 or so games, I mulliganed half of my starting hands (the deck mulligans like a *****, by the way). I played against:
[snip]
the list I'm using, for reference
The only time i have lost to an extraction was when they pulled my gnaws and that was against U/W spirits.
I have had splinterfrights pulled, trackers pulled, hell i think even ghoultree and yet still managed to win.
Not to boast, but after all the discussion and testing in the old thread, i personally think i probably have one of the best decklists for this deck.
Ive been playing it for a while now and ive had plenty of time to fine tune it against just about everything.
If you cannot win with this deck then you are not playing it correctly. This is probably one of the best flowing decks i have ever played.
You may also be mis-building, since your mana base is a bit rockier than I'd prefer. 3 MB white sources can really muck up your land drops, if you get them. Also, Frost Titan is kind of something I've been toying with, but I'm not even sure he's the best for this deck. Honestly, Primeval might be better, since it thins our deck AND gets lands... though Wurmcoil might be better for what we really need.
I'm also not sure about the SB choices, and some are kinda out there. Why the third Ray, or the extra two Ruinators?
Wolf Run is usually our easiest matchup, with all the lockdown we can throw at them. Yes, big infecters are a problem, but that's why several of us side in Ancient Grudge. And perhaps because you're not used to it, that is why you're not quite sure of priorities, etc. Even in 20 games, this deck isn't as straight-forward as you'd think. Our T2 is usually full of choices, and that's if you've kept/mulled to a good hand.
It definitely needs work against Humans and Tokens, but the other matchups you mention aren't nearly as bad as your playtesting has indicated.
Not to boast, but after all the discussion and testing in the old thread, i personally think i probably have one of the best decklists for this deck.
Ive been playing it for a while now and ive had plenty of time to fine tune it against just about everything.
I would like to see your list, if you say so. Mind posting it?
I don't see how undying creatures would be any better in this deck than in a straight aggro. If something doesn't support splinterfright or ghoultree, or doesn't in specific work really well against certain kinds of decks, I don't see why it should be played just for the sake of having the dredge "feel" to it.
Youtube Channel
@majiger: That's one of great points he mentions. You can run more than 3 geists cause u don't want to throw them on empty table. You want to "catch" something with them and u won't cast them turn 4 if there's nothin on your way or if u can cast ghoultrees or other heavy hitters. Geists are here to shut treats you don't want to hit into or to remove blockers. I find them insanely good.
Undead Alchemist - just killed me. I couldn't mill and I couldn't not help him winning. Only Ghoultrees worked and I got no mana to cast them.
That's a painful one and really problematic. Anyway, it's great tech versus the mirror even if u don't have more zombies than 3 kinds (Screeching, Armored meybe Ruinator) and Alchemist in the deck, but it just kills this deck if pervious turn was a nihil bomb.
Removal or you're screwed.
I'm very curious to see how it does. In a deck that plays Dream Twist, it is nearly an alternate wincon. Control decks play Nephalia Drownyard as an alternate wincon with a focus on using it to finish off other control players. What do you all think of blowing through a control deck with 3-4 Dream Twist and a couple of Mind Crushers? Is it viable?
Arachnus Spinner
6 mana is a lot, but the arachnid does answer a lot of problems plaguing this deck. It's a huge body with reach. On top of that Arachnus Spinner allows us to play some removal without fear of milling it. This removal is of course Arachnus Web. Adding these 2 cards opens the door for Spider Spawning and a light Black splash. If going 3 color, I think this is a better route than adding Red for Faithless Looting.
Deceiver Exarch
Combat trick.
Niblis of the Breath
Basic Tapper. Our version of Gideon's Lawkeeper in the Humans Deck.
Melira, Sylvok Outcast
Possible sideboard card for people having trouble vs Poison.
Man, I know the feeling. Been there, done that. But I don't think he is really that played a card? Answers are plentiful too, swipers and point removal.
Youtube Channel
Arachnus... I don't know, it just feels so clumsy. 6 mana CERTAINLY is a lot of mana. I don't know if I'd want to go tapped out just because of this. It would take quite many slots, and won't answer big threats or Crusaders.
Niblis of the breath is funny, but he just seems like a wetted version of dungeon geists. With the exception that he consumes mana, doesn't lockdown continuously, can't hit for 3 in the air, and is easier to kill. meh.
Melira is cool, but she does't serve this deck any more than any other green deck
(EDIT: sorry for being such a dull person, I do not intend to kill the conversation or make harsh-ish comments just for the sake of it)
Youtube Channel
If you want a combat trick look at Feeling of Dread it's in white which is the easiest splash and has a blue flashback. It costs less mana than Deceiver Exarch too.
I like these ideas, but as we've learned adding a 3rd color creates consistency issues. I'm really tempted to try Spiders though. Arachnus Web is very intriguing. I like Nibilis of Breath, but Nibilis of the Urn would be a much better option as white is very easy to splash with Birds and Pilgrims. While its tap ability only works offensively it is free, costing no further mana investment. An argument has been made for Nibilis of Breath before as a way to nuke Illusions, but Artful Dodge already does a very nice job. Infect is a big problem because most of their threats fly, but I find that I see maybe 1 or 2 infect players out of 30 at my LGS on Fridays.
Anyway, if black is added, here's a few more cards that might be useful:
Sever the Bloodline
Deadly Allure
Increasing Ambition
And I'm really going off the deep end with this one...
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Although she has synergy with milling bombs in your yard then recurring them for free.
The more I look through these cards, the more I feel like there's supposed to be a UB Zombie Mill Deck. There are so many UB cards that mill and are Zombies. That's a whole different deck, but it might be worth looking into.
If black is discussed, Sheoldred seems like the most interesting one to me. Seven mana is huge, but not impossible. If you really want to push it, then mana dorks, emissaries and mulches will take you there on turn 6, i think.
Although, I'm not too sure about fatties. It has always seemed to me, that the reason this deck works (when it works) is that you get really big for really cheap. Bringing back splinterfrights would be terrific, but there are few issues. If the game has lasted that long, I think we should really be the winning side already. Of course her ability is really, really powerful, it has to start rolling first, and that might take time. Maybe Sheoldred isn't quite fast enough?
I personally like Sun Titan, and what makes him big, other than being cheaper & more splashable, is that he gives card advantage right away. If sheodred gets removed, you tapped out for a big pile of nothing, and that mana could have been spent on something else, then. Sun Titan, on the other hand, gives us value right away and must be answered all the same. Also, he would give us Splinterfrights from the grave with an advantage of getting two turns ahead of Sheoldred.
It could be tried, but is the sac effect wortth it?
EDIT: personally, I always end up having few frights in the yard, even if they are not getting removed from the table. recurring armored skaabs is also a good option, chump blocker againts pro green techs and milling 4.
EDIT2: also, increasing ambition is a bit like unburial rites -i don't see it being worth it, because we don't "really" have great reanimation/tutoring targets. I don't want to spend 4 mana to bring frights back, because Sun Titan and postmortem lunge do the job better in my opinion, with a BIG surprise element. Also, I think that faithless looting would be needed to make both of these cards viable... that's really too long a way.
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Second, while the notion of punching faces with bombs like Geralf's Mindcrusher, Sheoldred and Vorapede is very attractive, it really does make it a different deck.
The essence of this deck is to come out swinging early with Ghoultrees and Splinterfrights and to handle our opponents toughest creatures with Metamorphs and Dungeon Geists. If we deviate into ramping into fatties, it becomes a different deck. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just keep in mind what the shell of the deck is as we develop competitively.
On that note, the bad thing about the Arachnus Spinner is that it costs the same as a titan. It cannot trade with any of them, and can only successfully block a Sun Titan or Primeval Titan without keeling over. Inferno will dome it and then crush it, Grave has deathtouch, and Frost will tap it down. [Edited for accuracy. I thought the Spinner had 6 power.]
Now, in addition to our weaknesses against certain archetypes, we have a weakness to a game element as well--tempo. We are landing our best creatures around the same time that other decks are finding their Nihil Spellbombs, targeted removal, and board wipes. This is very bad. To me, this is the main thing holding this deck back. It's an all or nothing gambit that puts us in a very vulnerable position. If we don't draw Tracker's Instincts we are dead in the water after a Nihil, or board wipe, and recovery is made even more difficult when we don't hit at least 5-6 land drops.
1) Gavony Township
2) Porcelain Legionnaire
The Townships are in place of the Buried Ruins, though I just slid them over to the sb for testing. I'm also trying the One-Eyed Scarecrow in the sb for anti-Spirits tech, and it's... OK. The problem is that it doesn't kill the tokens, and one anthem means they're potent again... which is a problem with the darn Vault of the Archangel.
I'm not really sure how I like the white splash, but it's actually made my one-of KCB in the side utterly insane. Activate it after the wolves spawn. You'll go like :/ Seriously.
Hopefully our utility land from AVR will be this good. It's been interesting to test, but it's still weak to Delver. Bleh. Though now I can handle zombies fairly well!
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
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It's not for the Dredge "feel" that I am talking about undying. It's because a single Extraction means no more Splinterfright or Ghoultrees. Then what?
Yes you still have other cards but the reason we are self milling so much is to pump these guys and get them big turn 3/4 and swing for huge damage.
But what if, yes I know a what if, turn 2 you get one of these in the graveyard and ANY deck uses extraction paying 2 life to get rid of all 4 copies?
I mean there goes the big bomb we are playing around and making these deck choices for. So why not have a back-up plan?
I don't see how 4 Undying cards would hurt this deck at all. Seeing how only one would be a really big card, Voropede, everything else is under 3 cmc.
That's why the sideboard strategy is the way it is. Post board we have 5-6 viable threats (Skaab Ruinator, Splinterfright, Boneyard Wurm, Ghoultree, Kessig Cagebreakers, Spider Spawning... if you want to include it) but only 8-12 slots in the deck for big creatures. The result is you're able to run 2-3 of multiple creatures which significantly reduces the impact of extraction. Besides, our creatures getting hit with extraction really isn't this decks weak point. The weak point is what happens when the opponent hits Tracker's Instincts with an extraction. That's a far bigger blow, and one that undying creatures doesn't solve.
As a final point, when a Vorapede, Geist, or whatever else dies and it's undying trigger is on the stack the opponent can use extraction and hit all four of them so Undying doesn't really add any resilience against extraction. If they have the card they can still do some damage with it.
Ahh right, I forgot about the stack interaction of Undying. My bad. I wish we had more cards like Skaab Ruinator but oh well.
Guess Undying gets to die..?
delver
flipped your delver on the play? yeah sure, I'll start the game at 11 life. oh wait, you have the mana leak for my dungeon geist? SURE! let's play another game in which my sideboard is LIFEGAIN.
wolf run
TITANS! INFECT CREATURES WE CAN'T BLOCK! JOY!
UB control
nothing sticks. ruinators get dissipated. yes, I played around them.
UW humans
TURN 1 1 CHAMPION, TURN TWO GATHER, TURN 3 ANGELIC, TURN 4 HERO, LOLOOLOLOLOL
UB zombies
Actually beat this one, due to multiple gnaws and him drwing 1 geralf both games. woohoo.
Naya hellrider
dead by turn 4 because he shocked my mana dorks and I was stuck with a hand full of ghoultrees and ruinators which I could not cast
tempered steel
flyersr. faster clock than ours. double TS draws all day, erry day.
tokens
Survived the intitial flying onslaught? it's game two and you ray of revelation'd my anthems? I CAN STILL PULL A VAULT OUOT OF MY ASS AND WIN THE RACE! SCREW YOU DREDGE!
I don't want to sound ungrateful. I don't want to sound like a whiny idiot. I really don't. but it's 4 am, and I've just lost my 14th game in a row to some genius playing tokens and drawing vault EXACTLY when I have lethal. And no, before you ask, I am not missplaying like an idiot. for some reason, the deck just can't win. is it the mws factor? is it the bad shuffler? is it the fact that people play maindeck distress+extraction IN TOKENS?
the list I'm using, for reference
8 forest
4 hinterland harbor
6 island
4 birds of paradise
2 avacyn's pilgrim
2 viridian emisarry
4 screeching skaab
4 armored skaab
4 splinterfright
4 ghoultree
3 dungeon geist
3 phyrexian metamorph
1 frost titan
2 skaab ruinator
1 gnaw to the bone
1 artful dodge
2 beast within
3 ezuri's archers
2 gnaw to the bone
1 artful dodge
2 skaab ruinator
2 ratchet bomb
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I just rotflstomp aggro like a boss with 4 following cards at main:
4x Splinterfight, Boneyard, Ghoultree
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Artful Dodge (I've found one too less many times, it just plain wins games)
3x Dungeon Geists
Also for me, viridian emissary is rubish here. I don't use metamorphs and titans, I would just copy Dungeon Geists with metamorphs or some swords etc. nothing else probably of my interest except killing legendaries.
For me, you're just piloting it badly. I'm having much fun with it and your list seems bad.
Splashing white just to use sideboard cards? It's wasted consistency post board. Either pack O-rings or try Feeling of Dread (four tapped blockers most times mean death to anyone). And you use too less gnaws, always have atleast 2 mainboard and additional 2 sideboard. If you side all four, without gravehate they can't win any race. You're playing it wrong I think.
You build your graveyard, lose a bit of life while gettin fatties in. Then just Gnaw one or two times for enought life to steadly win the race with artful dodge or mentioned previously feeling of dread. That card is just bad against tokens but otherwise just shines letting you kill players or strain planeswalkers.
I'll post my list later, when It takes it's final shape. But I also run just 2 birds of paradise. Yes, it's nice to hit them t1, but it's not required cause the only thing you could cast t2 faster thanks to birds is Armored Skaab or in your example, an Metamorph. Which isn't much of a deal while mulch and tracker's both cost 2 to hardcast. Imo too much mana dorks becomes wasted slots. Mill and hit hard. If they can't have bigger stuff than you, just win.
I use to call this deck a 12-Goyf, because you know. What's the best aggressive green creature around ever? It's tarmogoyf, and if I can play 12 of them, and just one of them costs 3 and rest most times are cheaper, then I'm really playing heavy beatsticks. Concentrate on cutting your opponents in half. I encourage you to use 2 artful dodges and just either forget about that white splash or just pack some usefull white stuff mainboard. Otherwise you're doing it bad here. If you can't use something in your hand or in your yard past some key cards, it's bad. Your white-green duals just slow you past turn 3 and thats makes your preboard worse while giving you a "chance" for better sideboard options postboard.
I've killed: Zombies UB, MonoRed Goblins, 12-Swordsman (or just 12-Swords deck), Hellrider RG, UB Control and regular Wolf Run, lost just hardly just once against someone I can't remember but that wasn't due to hard matchup but due to my unlucky muligans, draws and mills that game (18 cards in gy, 4 creatures milled so far).
I'm not saying that I lose, I never lose "hard". If I lose, it's close game or I just screwed or my draws were ****ty and mills not good enought, that's what I've been seeing since I've beginned intense testing. The worst matchup is against decks with spellbomb in sideboards atm. Will still test more, need to get more confident.
How long have you played? It could be the eperience factor as well (with this specific deck, of course!) I have read that other people's results have been greatly better. I do not think that this deck is, at least vastly, inferior to those established decks. I personally run Snapcaster and mulch, which many find odd, but perhaps you could look into those choices as well. There are quite many variations of this deck.
EDIT: I agree with Azurie about stomping aggro. Almost everytime ghoultrees and gnaws have simply killed their attemps of winning. It's almost funny, really.
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I have had splinterfrights pulled, trackers pulled, hell i think even ghoultree and yet still managed to win.
Not to boast, but after all the discussion and testing in the old thread, i personally think i probably have one of the best decklists for this deck.
Ive been playing it for a while now and ive had plenty of time to fine tune it against just about everything.
If you cannot win with this deck then you are not playing it correctly. This is probably one of the best flowing decks i have ever played.
You may also be mis-building, since your mana base is a bit rockier than I'd prefer. 3 MB white sources can really muck up your land drops, if you get them. Also, Frost Titan is kind of something I've been toying with, but I'm not even sure he's the best for this deck. Honestly, Primeval might be better, since it thins our deck AND gets lands... though Wurmcoil might be better for what we really need.
I'm also not sure about the SB choices, and some are kinda out there. Why the third Ray, or the extra two Ruinators?
Wolf Run is usually our easiest matchup, with all the lockdown we can throw at them. Yes, big infecters are a problem, but that's why several of us side in Ancient Grudge. And perhaps because you're not used to it, that is why you're not quite sure of priorities, etc. Even in 20 games, this deck isn't as straight-forward as you'd think. Our T2 is usually full of choices, and that's if you've kept/mulled to a good hand.
It definitely needs work against Humans and Tokens, but the other matchups you mention aren't nearly as bad as your playtesting has indicated.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
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I would like to see your list, if you say so. Mind posting it?
Its in my signature under the spoiler tag