I do think we will get something for Avacyn Restored. Just possibly. There's the UG land (ones like vault of the archangel, kessig wolfrun etc.) which has yet to be revealed. I'm interested in what that does
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the sharpest steel is tempered in fire!!! though the plane of mirrodin is lost, the fire of mirrans still burn!!!!!
So let's see if we can't be realistic about this deck for a minute, because while we all want to make it competitive, it's hard to do that without addressing its serious shortcomings.
1) Weak to flying creatures (especially swarms of them)
2) Bothered or neutered by graveyard hate
3) Difficulty racing against or responding to bounce/exile effects
4) Little actual removal (excluding tappers)
5) Starts slowly, and non-skaab milling leaves no board presence
6) Deck requires tons of creatures or flashback, meaning we exclude very useful cards
7) Unlike original Dredge, it has no way to reclaim useful cards from the graveyard (except Buried Ruin), and its only passive mill is Splinterfright
We need to patch these holes somehow. I've started considering splashing W yet again because at least then we'd have a few more answers or tricks. White is also the easiest splash with duals, Avacyn's Pilgrims, etc.
The UG land might prove to be a big boost, but I can't imagine what it would be. Unless it's something like a yard-GSZ, would it really help us?
Honestly i dont have much trouble against fliers all that much.
The only thing that really hinders us is GY hate and exile effects(mainly white)
Aggro isnt a bad match if you can land some chumps and then get a GttB.
GY hate is out there more because of other stuff than us so its going to happen. Run your mental missteps and revokers and just go with it.
Against blue/black control stuff you just need to be cautious and play smart. This is where your skaabs/emissary comes in. They will almost always let them get in for damage at least 3/4 turns and just wait for them to tap out for a grave titan and then you drop multiple fatties. Build up your graveyard and wait for the precise moment and it isnt that hard.
About the problem with flying creatures. I've found that there's no good solution for mass of them except repetitive Gnaw to the Bone which isn't half way bad. Most times it solves a problem.
What I've found insanely hard to do, is to get past Phyrexian Obliberator without either Dungeon Geists or Artful Dodge. He just really kicks this deck. Your ghoultree's, bigger wurms and spliterfrights are not able to attack unless you got enought of them to alpha strike. It becomes hard because if a deck runs obliberator, it runs GftT and other point removal just shutting you hard.
I've tested Tower Geist a bit with mixed results. He's nice to block for example a delver or chandra's phoenix, is a creature in a yard and mills one card and draws another, but the fact that he costs 4 mana hurts. It's a bit for it's functionality. I have to test them some more.
Also about Dream Twist. I've mixed feelings. It does mill alot when we try to gain momentum but in a late game becomes just redudant. I had twice hit like 7 creatures turn 2 in graveyard (Dream t1, mulch t2) and then just start to rock with wurm's and ghoultree's but otherwise, it's not that good.
Also, the best solution for Obliberator is either Kessing Cagebreakers making enought tokens to sacrifice or using Silent Departure. Against departure speaks the fact that it's flashback is expensive for this deck and let's just break the obliberator defense for a turn, which doesn't give much unless you alpha or nearly alpha strike that turn.
Of course, flying creatures just fly over obliberator, that's why I'm consindering some Tower Geists if I encounter more Black/Red Aggros.
And another thing: Gnaw to the Bone is INSANELY good. Just makes me win games otherwise lost. I love it. Absolutly brutal and rewarding.
I'm hoping to get this deck to an FNM (we got few Wolfruns, some WB tokens and probably one or two frites plus two humans and the rest of decks I can't remember, hopefully it'll be a blast).
Gnaw to the Bone still seems like the best way to deal with decks that run Lingering Souls. I think that after rotation a Gnaw and Dodge heavy build is going to be the way to go since the scariest alternate win condition for us will also be gone (Infect)
If you're looking for something different, what about One-Eyed Scarecrow? It's right on the curve with Lingering Souls and can be fetched if you're running Buried Ruin. It also turns them into walls so you can swing unimpeded. After that you just have to work on keeping the Anthems and Captains off the board. Normally stalling them for a turn or two is enough to seal the win
It's also a creature. And it can block and kill Mirran Crusader as a bonus
1) Weak to flying creatures (especially swarms of them)
2) Bothered or neutered by graveyard hate
3) Difficulty racing against or responding to bounce/exile effects
4) Little actual removal (excluding tappers)
5) Starts slowly, and non-skaab milling leaves no board presence
6) Deck requires tons of creatures or flashback, meaning we exclude very useful cards
7) Unlike original Dredge, it has no way to reclaim useful cards from the graveyard (except Buried Ruin), and its only passive mill is Splinterfright
I am somewhat always graving for more interaction with this deck. The strict UG list has Metamorphs, Dungeon geists and Aether adepts to answer some problems, but their uses are not that varied. UG also leaves a bit fewer sideboard options. Skaab ruinator and memory's journey are really great, of course. I think someone mentioned Masticore in this thread too, and he really shines, for a tad high price though.
At the moment I feel that W is pretty essential spash. There are often occasions when I don't get the perfect draw, and simply can't win the race, so I'm finding myself shifting towards longer games and control. This happens againts burn and control as well, since it takes a few turns to get splinterfrights out of the range of burn and getting leaked. How much testing has been given to DoJ? Certainly not fast enough againts crusaders, but it would hurt everything else. Wiping everything gives this deck the edge, or at least that's my impression after playtesting, especially with Sun Titan. Of course, double W is quite a heavy commitment.
About making the most of my grave -I'm totally torned between Salvage Scout and Snapcaster. Yeah, we've discussed these cards, and they are not that great, but then again, I haven't figured any other way to deal with at least most of the threats that better this deck.
1) Snapcaster makes it possible to run Corrosive gale (really big!), Postmortem lunge (KCB, Sun Titan (bringing two frights, yay, although the 8 mana is really pushing this one), or even a simple splinterfright), Naturalize (You could probably use this more often than sylvok replica, but then again, the replica would do the same thing most of the time at a same cost, yet taking less slots from the deck) and beast within (excellent as always, but five mana hurts like hell, and it's not always that you're going to target something that acidid slime or sylvok replica wouldn't target). Oh, and of course Mental Misstep as well. Now this would really utilize Snapcaster, big time, not consuming too much mana. I suppose it's up to the meta --If I'd face a lot of cages, spellbombs and extractions I would probably opt to Snapcaster. Oh, I almost forget. Prey Upon. It's sorcery-speed, but if there is a deck that could make the most of this card, it's this deck here. How often do you find yourself risking, well, anything when you target your ghoultree with this thing? Of course it is highly conditional, but I could see it being great sb material. Costing cheap, and flashbacking with Snapcaster would be cheap enough too. Any toughts?
2) Salvage Scout on the other hand costs about the same, W to play and W to activate. Sylvok replica and Molten-tail masticore are now recurrable, although this seems on paper a bit clumsy to me. Masticore would supposedly make a better target, since I don't want to run too many copies of him. Ratchet bomb is really the prime, but then again, I rarely find myself strugling againts tokens that don't fly -and corrosive gale does the same thing, and even more. Hex Parasite is awesome, yet a tad limited. I don't see running scout just for planeswalker hate all that essential.
EDIT: And about buried ruins, I'm not that excited, really. You need to spend 3 mana and permanently lose one, whereas scout is way cheaper and doesn't force to sacrifice a land. Bodies on grave are good, too, as well as not messing up the manabase with the colourless mana.
I've been trying to make the white splash work. The really good white cards are double white though which makes things hard. I think that Dungeon Geists may have to come out to get some value out of white, that or the land count needs to come up from 20. With DoJ specifically, it's nice when you get it but I've found it usually ends up milled and winds up as a dead card.
Snapcaster is bad, I've tried him with DoJ and with Blasphemous Act trying to have a sweeper, it just didn't work very well. There was an extra mana cost, a real lack of flashback targets, and the 2/1 body was nothing special (especially since it would end up dead right after being used).
Salvage Scout may work for the artifact splash idea, the problem though is that unlike Buried Ruin running it means you lose some good creatures. Right now I'm trying Auramancer for an enchantment splash.
Oh, and Hex Parasite is terrible. Use Phyrexian Revoker instead, it's a much more versatile card.
He wants you to have spells in your deck while this deck wants you to have creatures in your deck.
As soon as you start bogging the deck with extra spells, which get milled eventually anyways, you are taking the power away from this deck and simply making it a weird graveyard deck.
That's an Ichorid Dredge deck I found. So from what I can tell about Legacy Dredge is this:
a) There is Dredge. I mean this is what makes the deck but using the graveyard as a resource is another way of describing Dredge.
b) There are no "mill" cards. They are all Draw then discard, so Faithless Looting and such, which we don't have too much of.
So pretty much tons of draw and creature flashback is what we are missing.
We know for sure the new set won't give us more flashback of any kind, sucks, but we may get draw/discard cards.
He wants you to have spells in your deck while this deck wants you to have creatures in your deck.
As soon as you start bogging the deck with extra spells, which get milled eventually anyways, you are taking the power away from this deck and simply making it a weird graveyard deck.
I am aware of this. Then again, snapcaster makes casting spells more consistent, because they are more likely to hit the grave than your hand. Lets say I need beast withins and corrosive gales in my mainboard. I assume that I could cast both spels as often as a regular deck with playsets would, but running perhaps 2 or 3 of both and a playset of snapcasters. More slots for creatures, and very consistent. Of course the number of times you can cast these spelss would be reduced, but it usually isn't that relevant.
This deck HATES spells, but creatures simply don't give you enough interaction. There is no way around this problem. I know the casting costs are high, but you can work around your manabase and mana sources. Snapcaster is not optimal, not by a long shot, but is there yet any better way to get more interaction?
He wants you to have spells in your deck while this deck wants you to have creatures in your deck.
As soon as you start bogging the deck with extra spells, which get milled eventually anyways, you are taking the power away from this deck and simply making it a weird graveyard deck.
That's an Ichorid Dredge deck I found. So from what I can tell about Legacy Dredge is this:
a) There is Dredge. I mean this is what makes the deck but using the graveyard as a resource is another way of describing Dredge.
b) There are no "mill" cards. They are all Draw then discard, so Faithless Looting and such, which we don't have too much of.
So pretty much tons of draw and creature flashback is what we are missing.
We know for sure the new set won't give us more flashback of any kind, sucks, but we may get draw/discard cards.
The only draw spell I find almost viable is Think Twice. It's "almost" viable because we are playing mostly a tapout deck while leaving spare mana just in case we wanna gnaw to the bone, about which our opponents are gonna forget sooner or earlier due to great stream of cards hitting the yard.
Additional cards capable to serve us (more, less or doubtfully):
Blue: Merfolk Mesmerist, like a screeching skab, just repetitive and slower, which probably kills it. visions of beyond, draw that you so desire, does nothing in a yard without a snapcaster which as pointed out, seems to be not much usefull here Geralf's Mindcrusher, it punches and mills and survives, would be perfect if he costed less than 6, now it's less considerable. Thought Scour, same as visions, does nothing in grave yet is as good as dream twist t1, if not better for me, sadly no flashback on it, it loses a lot cause of that Derranged Assistant, like merfolk mesmerist, seems to slow. Mindshrieker, often you got a lot of flashback mill in the graveyard or some in hand, so milling one card for two seems like a rubish, yet it would be hilarious if you hit a ghoultree with it, 9/9 flyer on yer face.
Green: Hunter's Insight, i've played with it a lot in casual, and it brings nice draws, consindering the high power of our creatures and the fact we don't mind to discard things, may be worth a try as a draw spell of choice. Again it costs a 3 and has no usefullness in grave so that's another big thing to consider. Grim Flowering gr8 draw, too high cost, dead in graveyard, umm next? Garruk Relentless, now it's a game, look at his evil half's ultimate, it goes off and turns a game into a win. His wolves and removal are good options and his second ability even has a use of milling a poor bird into a ghoultree or splinterfright. Of course dead in the yard, so don't use in creature slow. Worth testing in my opinion.
Colorless: Bonehoard, makes anything into boneyard wurm, makes birds into killer birds, same with ruinators and geists. Better topdeck than another splinterfight when one's on battlefield and we got mana for equip, with artful dodge may mean a game after being hit with nihil spellbomb if u rebuild ur graveyard to small size and can even survive nihil spellbomb if there are chump victims in opponent's graveyard cause it counts all of them, worth testing. Again not in creature slot I think.
Gnaw to the Bone still seems like the best way to deal with decks that run Lingering Souls. I think that after rotation a Gnaw and Dodge heavy build is going to be the way to go since the scariest alternate win condition for us will also be gone (Infect)
If you're looking for something different, what about One-Eyed Scarecrow? It's right on the curve with Lingering Souls and can be fetched if you're running Buried Ruin. It also turns them into walls so you can swing unimpeded. After that you just have to work on keeping the Anthems and Captains off the board. Normally stalling them for a turn or two is enough to seal the win
It's also a creature. And it can block and kill Mirran Crusader as a bonus
I've been taking a serious look at One-Eyed Scarecrow as well. It can trade with quite a few aggressive creatures while blunting those 1/1 Spirit Tokens nicely. I just wish it didn't have Defender. That said, if W/x tokens is really prevalent in your meta, the Scarecrow is a slam dunk. I like that it can trade with a naked Mirran Crusader, and blocks and kills (then neuters) Doomed Traveler.
The only draw spell I find almost viable is Think Twice. It's "almost" viable because we are playing mostly a tapout deck while leaving spare mana just in case we wanna gnaw to the bone, about which our opponents are gonna forget sooner or earlier due to great stream of cards hitting the yard.
Additional cards capable to serve us (more, less or doubtfully):
Blue: Merfolk Mesmerist, like a screeching skab, just repetitive and slower, which probably kills it.
The mana investment kills it. I'd rather play Merfolk Looter 100% of the time and I'm not even playing that ATM
visions of beyond, draw that you so desire, does nothing in a yard without a snapcaster which as pointed out, seems to be not much usefull here
It doesn't do what we need it to do in this deck. By the time we get 20 cards in our yard, we should be winning anyway. I'd rather play Thought Scour, but I'm not playing that either
Geralf's Mindcrusher, it punches and mills and survives, would be perfect if he costed less than 6, now it's less considerable.
Actually it's a much better card than I originally thought. Right now it suffers from Titans and Wurmcoil being better 6 drop options. I could see it being a beating in a Titan-free environment
Thought Scour, same as visions, does nothing in grave yet is as good as dream twist t1, if not better for me, sadly no flashback on it, it loses a lot cause of that
Like I said, I would run it over Visions, but I would run Dream Twist over both of them
I play him in one of my stranger variants. The problem is he costs 2 mana. We don't need ramp on turn 2, we need it on turn 1 because we have a lot of 3 drops. I would run 4x Birds and 4x Elves/Pilgrims before I ran this guy
Mindshrieker, often you got a lot of flashback mill in the graveyard or some in hand, so milling one card for two seems like a rubish, yet it would be hilarious if you hit a ghoultree with it, 9/9 flyer on yer face.
Way too slow, way too much variance. Creatures with abilities that require mana aren't very good in this deck other than Masticore
Hunter's Insight, i've played with it a lot in casual, and it brings nice draws, consindering the high power of our creatures and the fact we don't mind to discard things, may be worth a try as a draw spell of choice. Again it costs a 3 and has no usefullness in grave so that's another big thing to consider.
Not a bad idea, but not having flashback kills it. I really like the card and it combos nicely with Artful Dodge, but I think not having flashback kills it
Grim Flowering gr8 draw, too high cost, dead in graveyard, umm next?
Way too expensive. If I'm paying 6 mana for something it has to go a long way to winning me the game
Garruk Relentless, now it's a game, look at his evil half's ultimate, it goes off and turns a game into a win. His wolves and removal are good options and his second ability even has a use of milling a poor bird into a ghoultree or splinterfright. Of course dead in the yard, so don't use in creature slow. Worth testing in my opinion.
Very good card for this deck, but very bad in this metagame. His flipped -1 and ultimate are both incredible, and we have plenty of creatures we can use to flip him immediately. The main problem is that he doesn't protect himself very well from fliers. Also, if you use a 2 power guy to flip him you can't -1 him the next turn without sacrificing him which means you 2-for-1'ed yourself
Colorless: Bonehoard, makes anything into boneyard wurm, makes birds into killer birds, same with ruinators and geists. Better topdeck than another splinterfight when one's on battlefield and we got mana for equip, with artful dodge may mean a game after being hit with nihil spellbomb if u rebuild ur graveyard to small size and can even survive nihil spellbomb if there are chump victims in opponent's graveyard cause it counts all of them, worth testing. Again not in creature slot I think.
Have to check the last one.
Not a bad option, I prefer Birthing Pod for my artifact slot, but Bonehoard is a fine choice. It's really dependent on your meta
Is there any reason to run Mulch over Viridian Emissary if you have a slot(s) for extra land ramp? Both seem to have very similar effects for how different the cards look at first glance but i think the upside of Emissary is better, and if he's milled he still at least helps you.
My transformational sideboard from Pod to Dredge worked pretty well, let's see what happens when I try to turn Dredge into Pod
I'm going to give One-Eyed Scarecrow a chance. I figure with 3 Buried Ruin it can't be that bad
The Wurmcoil is there to give some additional resilience to sweepers. Between Mulch and the mana dorks I can usually hit 6 mana. I like it more than Cagebreakers because of Buried Ruin
and it works so much better than in standard (I even think it is more competitive in modern rather than standard for now) because: Hedron crab is awesome compared to skaabs Stinkweed Imp is 10x better than, say, dream twist
idem with Fauna Shaman against birthing pod, magus of the bazaar vs mulch.
The only difference are the millers (and the number of creatures, often 36 after side): they are very bad in t2 for now. Without good miller the deck is slow and irregular.
Thank you, I just searched Legacy but that is a really good example.
Let me point out again the one consistent theme: Draw/Discard.
It's huge for Dredge.
I think we really should have Faithless Looting, run dual lands and birds, and we should really explore the options of Undying because it is technically the Standard version of Dredge that is non-conditional.
Geralf's Mindcrusher - When rotation hits. Stormbound Geist - Not a bad flying option. Strangleroot Geist - Honestly there should not be a reason to not play this card. Vorapede - GGG is a big commitment, and this deck lacks the land base, but 5/4 with Vigilance and Trample AND Undying? It should be our Titan. Young Wolf - G, 1/1, comes back as 2/2. For G. Cost efficiency at its finest? (other than Solemn)
I'm not saying we should load our decks full of Undying creatures but for example 6 creatures total being Undying doesn't sound too terrible to me.
Thank you, I just searched Legacy but that is a really good example.
Let me point out again the one consistent theme: Draw/Discard.
It's huge for Dredge.
I think we really should have Faithless Looting, run dual lands and birds, and we should really explore the options of Undying because it is technically the Standard version of Dredge that is non-conditional.
Geralf's Mindcrusher - When rotation hits. Stormbound Geist - Not a bad flying option. Strangleroot Geist - Honestly there should not be a reason to not play this card. Vorapede - GGG is a big commitment, and this deck lacks the land base, but 5/4 with Vigilance and Trample AND Undying? It should be our Titan. Young Wolf - G, 1/1, comes back as 2/2. For G. Cost efficiency at its finest? (other than Solemn)
I'm not saying we should load our decks full of Undying creatures but for example 6 creatures total being Undying doesn't sound too terrible to me.
Just threw it together real quick. If we had life lands again we could easily make this deck 3/4 colors and have G/U/R/B.
Under almost any circumstances, I would prefer to topdeck Boneyard Wurm instead of Stranleroot Geists. I see no place for him. He's small late game and if our fatties can't swing he will also not be able to. I more fattie can make a diffrence but 1 more tiny-could-be-a-beater won't. I don't like geists at all, not their deck imo.
I don't mean base play around Undying. Yet it is a way for us to use the Graveyard more than just "Oh look! I have tons of creatures in the graveyard! *swing for 20* Oh wait..Is that a Spellbomb? Well Fffuuu!"
Maybe not Geists but the Undying Fatties should be here. Since we really should have something that is an WHAT IF our Graveyard is gone. Ancient Grudge is nice but it won't always save us.
Thank you, I just searched Legacy but that is a really good example.
Let me point out again the one consistent theme: Draw/Discard.
It's huge for Dredge.
I think we really should have Faithless Looting, run dual lands and birds, and we should really explore the options of Undying because it is technically the Standard version of Dredge that is non-conditional.
Geralf's Mindcrusher - When rotation hits. Stormbound Geist - Not a bad flying option. Strangleroot Geist - Honestly there should not be a reason to not play this card. Vorapede - GGG is a big commitment, and this deck lacks the land base, but 5/4 with Vigilance and Trample AND Undying? It should be our Titan. Young Wolf - G, 1/1, comes back as 2/2. For G. Cost efficiency at its finest? (other than Solemn)
I'm not saying we should load our decks full of Undying creatures but for example 6 creatures total being Undying doesn't sound too terrible to me.
Just threw it together real quick. If we had life lands again we could easily make this deck 3/4 colors and have G/U/R/B.
The problem with undying is we want creatures in our graveyard. Undying creatures tend to not goto the grave easily. When it comes to Faithless Looting it's a great card in this deck, the problem is that red doesn't really offer much else other than the flip side of Daybreak Ranger and Grim Lavamancer. We've got ways to play around spellbomb such as Skaab Ruinator and Ghoultree, neither of which die when the GY is wiped out. As for the card suggestions:
Mindcrusher isn't going to get better when rotation hits. We've got a lot of mana acceleration for this deck right now and it's pretty unlikely we're going to get more, meaning the amount of mana we have to work with right now is all we're going to have. 6 mana just isn't reliable for this deck and that fact isn't going to change.
Stormbound Geist is double blue at 3 mana. When sticking to just green/blue it can be difficult to have double blue on turn 4 for a Dungeon Geist, double blue on turn 3 is even more difficult. It's also nothing but a chump blocker against a sword or pike equipped delver. At best it trades with a sworded spirit.
Strangleroot Geist actually has 3 reasons to not play it in this deck. The first is the double green on turn 2 is unreliable. We want to be spending our turn 2 mana on some acceleration and milling (or birthing pod in that version of the deck). And we want creatures in the graveyard, geist takes awhile to hit the grave.
Vorapede suffers from the same problem as Mindcrusher.
Young Wolf is the worth considering, but I would only consider it as a sideboard card against humans.
Kibler tried the version of the deck you're suggesting. He ended up going the route of R/G aggro with lots of the standard aggro creatures for that, and then threw in a couple splinterfrights and ghoultrees. In his own opinion it wasn't a very good deck.
The way I think everyone is looking at Undying is this: It comes back from the grave, it's bad.
When it's really more like: Oh my creature died? Well it has another chance to be useful, perhaps as a chump block or to be seen a threat for a doom blade or maybe force a DoJ.
4 of Undying shouldn't be terrible. Since Undying simply means they get a 2nd chance, not they will never see the graveyard ever.
About the whole 6 mana thing. If you get 1 or 2 birds in your hand to start, you can usually keep more than just 6 mana. Especially with Mulch.
In many ways this standard dredge deck is very different from the old ones. I don't really see the point in trying to capture the ideology of old dredge. This deck exists because of splinterfright and ghoultree, and geists add nothing to support them. I think the established UG decks, with mulch or without, are pretty much optimalized. I personally try to explore more options with spells and snapasters, but it is yet to be seen for me whether it really works or not. On a side note, I'm a bit afraid about what avacyn restored will do this deck -the theme is a bit on the dark side, and I'd be surprised to see any new beaters for this archetype... But we'll see.
Since I'm already experimenting with Snapcaster, I think I might give hunter's instinct a shot. If it pulls through, I'd surely expect massive card draw.
The truth is, we're not playing dredge. It's just misleading. We are playing self mill. While dredge fuels it's graveyard sheningans by drawing cards and dredging them. That's not what we do. We mill our library and do not touch hand. The thing is we want to draw and mill not to draw, discard and mill. For me faithless looting "might be good" but splashing red just for one card is too much when you lose consistency with mana, which it is hard to archive with geists costing double U and the fact we play a lot of cheap stuff which makes us need sometimes like three G a turn (mulch into two ghoultree's for example).
I'd stick with UG and just find some answers to their hate.
Best answers to GY hate are:
Ghoultree, Bonehoard (opponent's graveyard counts), Skaab Ruinator and for a lesser amount, Cagebreakers (they don't die and work towards our board position with even a single creature in GY). That's the focus. About aggro. Just side in Gnaws instead of something less usefull and be sure to throw in a quick and sizeable blocker. For me it buys enought time unless there are fliers around.
And, last thing. I'm thinking about adding another Dungeon Geists, I currently run 3 and I think 1 more wouldn't hurt. Another reason not to splash red.
I didn't mean to say we have to make the deck like Old Dredge.
It just seems that Undying is hated because it would take an extra turn to go to the grave, the other thing is it only counts if it was already played. If it was milled it stays there. (If only Undying brought cards from the grave no matter where they came from)
@Azurie - Are you sure 4 4cmc double blue creatures is a good idea? I know that we make great use with them by shutting down cards but that seems like a lot.
1) Weak to flying creatures (especially swarms of them)
2) Bothered or neutered by graveyard hate
3) Difficulty racing against or responding to bounce/exile effects
4) Little actual removal (excluding tappers)
5) Starts slowly, and non-skaab milling leaves no board presence
6) Deck requires tons of creatures or flashback, meaning we exclude very useful cards
7) Unlike original Dredge, it has no way to reclaim useful cards from the graveyard (except Buried Ruin), and its only passive mill is Splinterfright
We need to patch these holes somehow. I've started considering splashing W yet again because at least then we'd have a few more answers or tricks. White is also the easiest splash with duals, Avacyn's Pilgrims, etc.
The UG land might prove to be a big boost, but I can't imagine what it would be. Unless it's something like a yard-GSZ, would it really help us?
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
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The only thing that really hinders us is GY hate and exile effects(mainly white)
Aggro isnt a bad match if you can land some chumps and then get a GttB.
GY hate is out there more because of other stuff than us so its going to happen. Run your mental missteps and revokers and just go with it.
Against blue/black control stuff you just need to be cautious and play smart. This is where your skaabs/emissary comes in. They will almost always let them get in for damage at least 3/4 turns and just wait for them to tap out for a grave titan and then you drop multiple fatties. Build up your graveyard and wait for the precise moment and it isnt that hard.
What I've found insanely hard to do, is to get past Phyrexian Obliberator without either Dungeon Geists or Artful Dodge. He just really kicks this deck. Your ghoultree's, bigger wurms and spliterfrights are not able to attack unless you got enought of them to alpha strike. It becomes hard because if a deck runs obliberator, it runs GftT and other point removal just shutting you hard.
I've tested Tower Geist a bit with mixed results. He's nice to block for example a delver or chandra's phoenix, is a creature in a yard and mills one card and draws another, but the fact that he costs 4 mana hurts. It's a bit for it's functionality. I have to test them some more.
Also about Dream Twist. I've mixed feelings. It does mill alot when we try to gain momentum but in a late game becomes just redudant. I had twice hit like 7 creatures turn 2 in graveyard (Dream t1, mulch t2) and then just start to rock with wurm's and ghoultree's but otherwise, it's not that good.
Also, the best solution for Obliberator is either Kessing Cagebreakers making enought tokens to sacrifice or using Silent Departure. Against departure speaks the fact that it's flashback is expensive for this deck and let's just break the obliberator defense for a turn, which doesn't give much unless you alpha or nearly alpha strike that turn.
Of course, flying creatures just fly over obliberator, that's why I'm consindering some Tower Geists if I encounter more Black/Red Aggros.
And another thing: Gnaw to the Bone is INSANELY good. Just makes me win games otherwise lost. I love it. Absolutly brutal and rewarding.
I'm hoping to get this deck to an FNM (we got few Wolfruns, some WB tokens and probably one or two frites plus two humans and the rest of decks I can't remember, hopefully it'll be a blast).
If you're looking for something different, what about One-Eyed Scarecrow? It's right on the curve with Lingering Souls and can be fetched if you're running Buried Ruin. It also turns them into walls so you can swing unimpeded. After that you just have to work on keeping the Anthems and Captains off the board. Normally stalling them for a turn or two is enough to seal the win
It's also a creature. And it can block and kill Mirran Crusader as a bonus
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
I feel your pain. Right now this Dredge has huge problems with any spell lacking flashback. I'm unfamiliar with the previous or original Dredge.
What cards do they have that interact with the grave yard? If you could post a link to a list or cards that would be great.
Understanding the previous Dredge will give me a better idea of how this deck could be built.
EDIT: Tower Geist, good idea. I'm going to try it.
I am somewhat always graving for more interaction with this deck. The strict UG list has Metamorphs, Dungeon geists and Aether adepts to answer some problems, but their uses are not that varied. UG also leaves a bit fewer sideboard options. Skaab ruinator and memory's journey are really great, of course. I think someone mentioned Masticore in this thread too, and he really shines, for a tad high price though.
At the moment I feel that W is pretty essential spash. There are often occasions when I don't get the perfect draw, and simply can't win the race, so I'm finding myself shifting towards longer games and control. This happens againts burn and control as well, since it takes a few turns to get splinterfrights out of the range of burn and getting leaked. How much testing has been given to DoJ? Certainly not fast enough againts crusaders, but it would hurt everything else. Wiping everything gives this deck the edge, or at least that's my impression after playtesting, especially with Sun Titan. Of course, double W is quite a heavy commitment.
About making the most of my grave -I'm totally torned between Salvage Scout and Snapcaster. Yeah, we've discussed these cards, and they are not that great, but then again, I haven't figured any other way to deal with at least most of the threats that better this deck.
1) Snapcaster makes it possible to run Corrosive gale (really big!), Postmortem lunge (KCB, Sun Titan (bringing two frights, yay, although the 8 mana is really pushing this one), or even a simple splinterfright), Naturalize (You could probably use this more often than sylvok replica, but then again, the replica would do the same thing most of the time at a same cost, yet taking less slots from the deck) and beast within (excellent as always, but five mana hurts like hell, and it's not always that you're going to target something that acidid slime or sylvok replica wouldn't target). Oh, and of course Mental Misstep as well. Now this would really utilize Snapcaster, big time, not consuming too much mana. I suppose it's up to the meta --If I'd face a lot of cages, spellbombs and extractions I would probably opt to Snapcaster. Oh, I almost forget. Prey Upon. It's sorcery-speed, but if there is a deck that could make the most of this card, it's this deck here. How often do you find yourself risking, well, anything when you target your ghoultree with this thing? Of course it is highly conditional, but I could see it being great sb material. Costing cheap, and flashbacking with Snapcaster would be cheap enough too. Any toughts?
2) Salvage Scout on the other hand costs about the same, W to play and W to activate. Sylvok replica and Molten-tail masticore are now recurrable, although this seems on paper a bit clumsy to me. Masticore would supposedly make a better target, since I don't want to run too many copies of him. Ratchet bomb is really the prime, but then again, I rarely find myself strugling againts tokens that don't fly -and corrosive gale does the same thing, and even more. Hex Parasite is awesome, yet a tad limited. I don't see running scout just for planeswalker hate all that essential.
EDIT: And about buried ruins, I'm not that excited, really. You need to spend 3 mana and permanently lose one, whereas scout is way cheaper and doesn't force to sacrifice a land. Bodies on grave are good, too, as well as not messing up the manabase with the colourless mana.
Youtube Channel
Snapcaster is bad, I've tried him with DoJ and with Blasphemous Act trying to have a sweeper, it just didn't work very well. There was an extra mana cost, a real lack of flashback targets, and the 2/1 body was nothing special (especially since it would end up dead right after being used).
Salvage Scout may work for the artifact splash idea, the problem though is that unlike Buried Ruin running it means you lose some good creatures. Right now I'm trying Auramancer for an enchantment splash.
Oh, and Hex Parasite is terrible. Use Phyrexian Revoker instead, it's a much more versatile card.
He wants you to have spells in your deck while this deck wants you to have creatures in your deck.
As soon as you start bogging the deck with extra spells, which get milled eventually anyways, you are taking the power away from this deck and simply making it a weird graveyard deck.
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Firestorm
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Tireless Tribe
That's an Ichorid Dredge deck I found. So from what I can tell about Legacy Dredge is this:
a) There is Dredge. I mean this is what makes the deck but using the graveyard as a resource is another way of describing Dredge.
b) There are no "mill" cards. They are all Draw then discard, so Faithless Looting and such, which we don't have too much of.
So pretty much tons of draw and creature flashback is what we are missing.
We know for sure the new set won't give us more flashback of any kind, sucks, but we may get draw/discard cards.
I am aware of this. Then again, snapcaster makes casting spells more consistent, because they are more likely to hit the grave than your hand. Lets say I need beast withins and corrosive gales in my mainboard. I assume that I could cast both spels as often as a regular deck with playsets would, but running perhaps 2 or 3 of both and a playset of snapcasters. More slots for creatures, and very consistent. Of course the number of times you can cast these spelss would be reduced, but it usually isn't that relevant.
This deck HATES spells, but creatures simply don't give you enough interaction. There is no way around this problem. I know the casting costs are high, but you can work around your manabase and mana sources. Snapcaster is not optimal, not by a long shot, but is there yet any better way to get more interaction?
Youtube Channel
The only draw spell I find almost viable is Think Twice. It's "almost" viable because we are playing mostly a tapout deck while leaving spare mana just in case we wanna gnaw to the bone, about which our opponents are gonna forget sooner or earlier due to great stream of cards hitting the yard.
Additional cards capable to serve us (more, less or doubtfully):
Blue:
Merfolk Mesmerist, like a screeching skab, just repetitive and slower, which probably kills it.
visions of beyond, draw that you so desire, does nothing in a yard without a snapcaster which as pointed out, seems to be not much usefull here
Geralf's Mindcrusher, it punches and mills and survives, would be perfect if he costed less than 6, now it's less considerable.
Thought Scour, same as visions, does nothing in grave yet is as good as dream twist t1, if not better for me, sadly no flashback on it, it loses a lot cause of that
Derranged Assistant, like merfolk mesmerist, seems to slow.
Mindshrieker, often you got a lot of flashback mill in the graveyard or some in hand, so milling one card for two seems like a rubish, yet it would be hilarious if you hit a ghoultree with it, 9/9 flyer on yer face.
Green:
Hunter's Insight, i've played with it a lot in casual, and it brings nice draws, consindering the high power of our creatures and the fact we don't mind to discard things, may be worth a try as a draw spell of choice. Again it costs a 3 and has no usefullness in grave so that's another big thing to consider.
Grim Flowering gr8 draw, too high cost, dead in graveyard, umm next?
Garruk Relentless, now it's a game, look at his evil half's ultimate, it goes off and turns a game into a win. His wolves and removal are good options and his second ability even has a use of milling a poor bird into a ghoultree or splinterfright. Of course dead in the yard, so don't use in creature slow. Worth testing in my opinion.
Colorless:
Bonehoard, makes anything into boneyard wurm, makes birds into killer birds, same with ruinators and geists. Better topdeck than another splinterfight when one's on battlefield and we got mana for equip, with artful dodge may mean a game after being hit with nihil spellbomb if u rebuild ur graveyard to small size and can even survive nihil spellbomb if there are chump victims in opponent's graveyard cause it counts all of them, worth testing. Again not in creature slot I think.
Have to check the last one.
I've been taking a serious look at One-Eyed Scarecrow as well. It can trade with quite a few aggressive creatures while blunting those 1/1 Spirit Tokens nicely. I just wish it didn't have Defender. That said, if W/x tokens is really prevalent in your meta, the Scarecrow is a slam dunk. I like that it can trade with a naked Mirran Crusader, and blocks and kills (then neuters) Doomed Traveler.
The mana investment kills it. I'd rather play Merfolk Looter 100% of the time and I'm not even playing that ATM
It doesn't do what we need it to do in this deck. By the time we get 20 cards in our yard, we should be winning anyway. I'd rather play Thought Scour, but I'm not playing that either
Actually it's a much better card than I originally thought. Right now it suffers from Titans and Wurmcoil being better 6 drop options. I could see it being a beating in a Titan-free environment
Like I said, I would run it over Visions, but I would run Dream Twist over both of them
I play him in one of my stranger variants. The problem is he costs 2 mana. We don't need ramp on turn 2, we need it on turn 1 because we have a lot of 3 drops. I would run 4x Birds and 4x Elves/Pilgrims before I ran this guy
Way too slow, way too much variance. Creatures with abilities that require mana aren't very good in this deck other than Masticore
Not a bad idea, but not having flashback kills it. I really like the card and it combos nicely with Artful Dodge, but I think not having flashback kills it
Way too expensive. If I'm paying 6 mana for something it has to go a long way to winning me the game
Very good card for this deck, but very bad in this metagame. His flipped -1 and ultimate are both incredible, and we have plenty of creatures we can use to flip him immediately. The main problem is that he doesn't protect himself very well from fliers. Also, if you use a 2 power guy to flip him you can't -1 him the next turn without sacrificing him which means you 2-for-1'ed yourself
Not a bad option, I prefer Birthing Pod for my artifact slot, but Bonehoard is a fine choice. It's really dependent on your meta
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
[cards]
4 Ghoultree
1 Skaab Ruinator
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Screeching Skaab
4 Armored Skaab
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Dungeon Geists
3 Mulch
2 Artful Dodge
2 Gnaw to the Bone
3 Buried Ruin
4 Hinterland Harbor
6 Forest
5 Island
3 Razorverge Thicket
3 Birthing Pod
1 Elesh Norn
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Acidic Slime
2 Ray of Revelation
2 One-Eyed Scarecrow
2 Memory's Journey
2 Gnaw to the Bone
My transformational sideboard from Pod to Dredge worked pretty well, let's see what happens when I try to turn Dredge into Pod
I'm going to give One-Eyed Scarecrow a chance. I figure with 3 Buried Ruin it can't be that bad
The Wurmcoil is there to give some additional resilience to sweepers. Between Mulch and the mana dorks I can usually hit 6 mana. I like it more than Cagebreakers because of Buried Ruin
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
Thank you, I just searched Legacy but that is a really good example.
Let me point out again the one consistent theme: Draw/Discard.
It's huge for Dredge.
I think we really should have Faithless Looting, run dual lands and birds, and we should really explore the options of Undying because it is technically the Standard version of Dredge that is non-conditional.
Geralf's Mindcrusher - When rotation hits.
Stormbound Geist - Not a bad flying option.
Strangleroot Geist - Honestly there should not be a reason to not play this card.
Vorapede - GGG is a big commitment, and this deck lacks the land base, but 5/4 with Vigilance and Trample AND Undying? It should be our Titan.
Young Wolf - G, 1/1, comes back as 2/2. For G. Cost efficiency at its finest? (other than Solemn)
I'm not saying we should load our decks full of Undying creatures but for example 6 creatures total being Undying doesn't sound too terrible to me.
Sample Decklist:
2 Ghoultree
1 Boneyard Wurm
1 Voropede
2 Strangleroot Geist
3 Dungeon Geists
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Armored Skaab
2 Screeching Skaab
3 Mulch
3 Faithless Looting
2 Gnaw to the Bone
4 Hinterland Harbor
3 Rootbound Crag
7 Forest
6 Island
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Daybreak Ranger
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Gnaw to the Bone
Just threw it together real quick. If we had life lands again we could easily make this deck 3/4 colors and have G/U/R/B.
Under almost any circumstances, I would prefer to topdeck Boneyard Wurm instead of Stranleroot Geists. I see no place for him. He's small late game and if our fatties can't swing he will also not be able to. I more fattie can make a diffrence but 1 more tiny-could-be-a-beater won't. I don't like geists at all, not their deck imo.
Maybe not Geists but the Undying Fatties should be here. Since we really should have something that is an WHAT IF our Graveyard is gone. Ancient Grudge is nice but it won't always save us.
The problem with undying is we want creatures in our graveyard. Undying creatures tend to not goto the grave easily. When it comes to Faithless Looting it's a great card in this deck, the problem is that red doesn't really offer much else other than the flip side of Daybreak Ranger and Grim Lavamancer. We've got ways to play around spellbomb such as Skaab Ruinator and Ghoultree, neither of which die when the GY is wiped out. As for the card suggestions:
Mindcrusher isn't going to get better when rotation hits. We've got a lot of mana acceleration for this deck right now and it's pretty unlikely we're going to get more, meaning the amount of mana we have to work with right now is all we're going to have. 6 mana just isn't reliable for this deck and that fact isn't going to change.
Stormbound Geist is double blue at 3 mana. When sticking to just green/blue it can be difficult to have double blue on turn 4 for a Dungeon Geist, double blue on turn 3 is even more difficult. It's also nothing but a chump blocker against a sword or pike equipped delver. At best it trades with a sworded spirit.
Strangleroot Geist actually has 3 reasons to not play it in this deck. The first is the double green on turn 2 is unreliable. We want to be spending our turn 2 mana on some acceleration and milling (or birthing pod in that version of the deck). And we want creatures in the graveyard, geist takes awhile to hit the grave.
Vorapede suffers from the same problem as Mindcrusher.
Young Wolf is the worth considering, but I would only consider it as a sideboard card against humans.
Kibler tried the version of the deck you're suggesting. He ended up going the route of R/G aggro with lots of the standard aggro creatures for that, and then threw in a couple splinterfrights and ghoultrees. In his own opinion it wasn't a very good deck.
The way I think everyone is looking at Undying is this: It comes back from the grave, it's bad.
When it's really more like: Oh my creature died? Well it has another chance to be useful, perhaps as a chump block or to be seen a threat for a doom blade or maybe force a DoJ.
4 of Undying shouldn't be terrible. Since Undying simply means they get a 2nd chance, not they will never see the graveyard ever.
About the whole 6 mana thing. If you get 1 or 2 birds in your hand to start, you can usually keep more than just 6 mana. Especially with Mulch.
Since I'm already experimenting with Snapcaster, I think I might give hunter's instinct a shot. If it pulls through, I'd surely expect massive card draw.
Youtube Channel
I'd stick with UG and just find some answers to their hate.
Best answers to GY hate are:
Ghoultree, Bonehoard (opponent's graveyard counts), Skaab Ruinator and for a lesser amount, Cagebreakers (they don't die and work towards our board position with even a single creature in GY). That's the focus. About aggro. Just side in Gnaws instead of something less usefull and be sure to throw in a quick and sizeable blocker. For me it buys enought time unless there are fliers around.
And, last thing. I'm thinking about adding another Dungeon Geists, I currently run 3 and I think 1 more wouldn't hurt. Another reason not to splash red.
It just seems that Undying is hated because it would take an extra turn to go to the grave, the other thing is it only counts if it was already played. If it was milled it stays there. (If only Undying brought cards from the grave no matter where they came from)
@Azurie - Are you sure 4 4cmc double blue creatures is a good idea? I know that we make great use with them by shutting down cards but that seems like a lot.