i can see some synergy with hellrider
or just having acces to a 4/4 here and there
yay?
nay?
I would say it's worth playing a couple of copies. Sure, ideally you should win before it ever matters but in the games where that doesn't happen you'll be happy to have the extra reach it gives you. In the games where you do win quickly it's unlikely that you'll significantly hurt your deck by drawing 1 or 2 colorless lands. It's also a good card to help you win through flooding since it's not taking up spell slots.
The idea of one or two isn't actually horrible. I've seen it ran in rogue RDR and goblins where I play, and it does work, maybe not a game changer, but at most running two of won't injure the deck.
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Really, it comes down to two questions you need to ask yourself: Will running crucible hurt the mana development of my deck? Am I likely to get more benefit from crucible than ghost quarter (or any other land)?
In my experience with burn, it rarely hurts your deck, but it also doesn't help much either. Still, I can imagine games where it will make a difference.
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I'd play 2. Although you might not think that 6 mana for a 4/4 is a good deal, the cost is divided up amongst multiple turns and it doesn't cost you any cards to push out.
If you're creature based, it's pretty good. If you're spell based, it's not as good but still gives reach.
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I dunno.....the more i think about it, the risk of not having red mana early kinda scares me....
Running two of them will only very rarely make that a problem. And if you do get screwed on colored mana that's why mulligans exist - if your hand is crucible, crucible and 5 goblins/burn spells then you obviously ship it. In a 20-21 land deck though that should not happen very often.
I run 2 of cavern of the soul and can get screwed out of a spell early sometimes. I dont think the cost of eating up turns pumping him is worth it. By the time hes useful, you have not done much but pump him. By then they probably have a decent creature, or a way to kill your land. For the most part, The only time this is useful is when you pump it, and they totally forget and make bad decisions.
I still don't understand why people are acknowledging this card when Spikeshot Elder still exists. I mean seriously guys, Spikeshot does everything that you would want Hellion Crucible to do, except it does it more than just once, and gets bigger as your field does.
I still don't understand why people are acknowledging this card when Spikeshot Elder still exists. I mean seriously guys, Spikeshot does everything that you would want Hellion Crucible to do, except it does it more than just once, and gets bigger as your field does.
And why exactly are they mutually exclusive? Is there some unwritten rule I've missed that says you can't have Hellion Crucible and Spikeshot Elder in the same deck?
And why exactly are they mutually exclusive? Is there some unwritten rule I've missed that says you can't have Hellion Crucible and Spikeshot Elder in the same deck?
Because you are already running 4 Spikeshots because they synergize with the rest of your deck? Hellion Crucible doesn't do...anything that Spikeshot doesn't already do better.
Because you are already running 4 Spikeshots because they synergize with the rest of your deck? Hellion Crucible doesn't do...anything that Spikeshot doesn't already do better.
You don't seem to understand that Hellion Crucible is a land. It is NOT taking away spell slots from other cards. Your comparison with Spikeshot Elder is 100% irrelevant to whether running Hellion Crucible in a goblins deck is correct or not because Hellion Crucible is not competing for the same slots. I don't know how to make that any more clear to you.
The real arguments as to whether you should run it or not would be that you will occasionally get color screwed (though only in very rare cases) and also whether there are better lands that you could run (Kessig Wolf Run may be better for a Goblins deck if they want a colorless land though that forces them to run R/G duals and deal with lands occasionally entering tapped).
This isn't a contest between mana sinks. Spikeshot is better, you're right about that. The question, though, is why this is worse than a mountain or two. There will be times when you have spare mana and no spikeshot elder. It doesn't hurt the deck to run this, so what reason do you have not to?
It totally IS a contest between mana sinks, because having FOUR of a better mana sink in your deck is going to be pretty much exactly the same as having six, if not arguably better just because you don't need that many sinks anyway.
If you run four Spikeshots you will see them with plenty of regularity. There's no reason to run Hellion Crucible because it's going to blow when you draw them with a Spikeshot already out. At least seeing Spikeshots in multiples gives you another dude.
It totally IS a contest between mana sinks, because having FOUR of a better mana sink in your deck is going to be pretty much exactly the same as having six, if not arguably better just because you don't need that many sinks anyway.
Because Spikeshot Elder is totally going to live forever with his 1 toughness :rolleyes:. I think you'll be pretty happy to have Hellion Crucible (or Wolf Run, or whatever) to sink your mana into when your Spikeshots inevitably die to Gut Shot, Tragic Slip, Mortarpod, Bonfire, Whipflare, or whatever other removal people are slinging around. Expecting to always have a Spikeshot Elder to use your mana on is pretty wishful thinking. I mean, I'd like to curve out into Gravecrawler-Double Gravecrawler-Geralf's Messenger every game when I play B/R Zombies but unfortunately I live in reality where that's only going to happen a small percentage of the time. There's just way too many variables to expect to have a Spikeshot Elder active every time you flood out and running additional mana sinks as insurance for when your Spikeshot doesn't survive (or when you don't draw it) is not a bad idea at all, especially when those manasinks are nearly free to run.
The bottomline is that there's little wrong with running additional mana sinks in your land slots and in fact it's typically a good idea to do so. At worst you'll have to make the choice between putting a counter on Crucible or poking someone with Spikeshot but it's rarely ever a bad thing to give yourself more options in the game of Magic. Even in that scenario Hellion Crucible still taps for mana to help you use your Spikeshot Elder. When your Spikeshot Elders fail you, or you flood out, or whatever, Crucible gives you something to do and all it's costing you is two land slots and a very minor loss in color consistency (assuming you're only running 1-2).
If Spikeshot Elder's ability was RRR, I wouldn't play Hellion Crucible in Goblins. But seeing as it is 1RR, you could get away with 1-2 for reach. Also, Hellion Crucible is much better in regular RDW, which most of us know is a "dead" deck right now.
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hellion crucible
i can see some synergy with hellrider
or just having acces to a 4/4 here and there
yay?
nay?
I would say it's worth playing a couple of copies. Sure, ideally you should win before it ever matters but in the games where that doesn't happen you'll be happy to have the extra reach it gives you. In the games where you do win quickly it's unlikely that you'll significantly hurt your deck by drawing 1 or 2 colorless lands. It's also a good card to help you win through flooding since it's not taking up spell slots.
It's a land that doesn't slow you down that you might be able to cash in later for a creature that's immune to sorcery speed removal...
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Run two of the hellion lands.
In my experience with burn, it rarely hurts your deck, but it also doesn't help much either. Still, I can imagine games where it will make a difference.
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Running two of them will only very rarely make that a problem. And if you do get screwed on colored mana that's why mulligans exist - if your hand is crucible, crucible and 5 goblins/burn spells then you obviously ship it. In a 20-21 land deck though that should not happen very often.
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And why exactly are they mutually exclusive? Is there some unwritten rule I've missed that says you can't have Hellion Crucible and Spikeshot Elder in the same deck?
Because you are already running 4 Spikeshots because they synergize with the rest of your deck? Hellion Crucible doesn't do...anything that Spikeshot doesn't already do better.
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You don't seem to understand that Hellion Crucible is a land. It is NOT taking away spell slots from other cards. Your comparison with Spikeshot Elder is 100% irrelevant to whether running Hellion Crucible in a goblins deck is correct or not because Hellion Crucible is not competing for the same slots. I don't know how to make that any more clear to you.
The real arguments as to whether you should run it or not would be that you will occasionally get color screwed (though only in very rare cases) and also whether there are better lands that you could run (Kessig Wolf Run may be better for a Goblins deck if they want a colorless land though that forces them to run R/G duals and deal with lands occasionally entering tapped).
btw, why would someone want to play 4 spikeshot elder??... it would be nice to see you pinging with both in 1 turn...
in rdw is better than in goblins... volt charge can be a real blow out with a noble+ berserker+ hellion crucible/shrine
Chile!
It totally IS a contest between mana sinks, because having FOUR of a better mana sink in your deck is going to be pretty much exactly the same as having six, if not arguably better just because you don't need that many sinks anyway.
If you run four Spikeshots you will see them with plenty of regularity. There's no reason to run Hellion Crucible because it's going to blow when you draw them with a Spikeshot already out. At least seeing Spikeshots in multiples gives you another dude.
Because we care about facts.
Because Spikeshot Elder is totally going to live forever with his 1 toughness :rolleyes:. I think you'll be pretty happy to have Hellion Crucible (or Wolf Run, or whatever) to sink your mana into when your Spikeshots inevitably die to Gut Shot, Tragic Slip, Mortarpod, Bonfire, Whipflare, or whatever other removal people are slinging around. Expecting to always have a Spikeshot Elder to use your mana on is pretty wishful thinking. I mean, I'd like to curve out into Gravecrawler-Double Gravecrawler-Geralf's Messenger every game when I play B/R Zombies but unfortunately I live in reality where that's only going to happen a small percentage of the time. There's just way too many variables to expect to have a Spikeshot Elder active every time you flood out and running additional mana sinks as insurance for when your Spikeshot doesn't survive (or when you don't draw it) is not a bad idea at all, especially when those manasinks are nearly free to run.
The bottomline is that there's little wrong with running additional mana sinks in your land slots and in fact it's typically a good idea to do so. At worst you'll have to make the choice between putting a counter on Crucible or poking someone with Spikeshot but it's rarely ever a bad thing to give yourself more options in the game of Magic. Even in that scenario Hellion Crucible still taps for mana to help you use your Spikeshot Elder. When your Spikeshot Elders fail you, or you flood out, or whatever, Crucible gives you something to do and all it's costing you is two land slots and a very minor loss in color consistency (assuming you're only running 1-2).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)