I think that there are a full competitive forum named U/w Tempo where all Delver archetypes are discussed. Finkel list is a clear Delver type variation, of course is powerful, but please, go there to discuss it. We are trying to do something different here.
Finkel's list is basically what an ideal UW spirits list would look like. The fact is, decks like Spirits, Illusions, and Delver are all roughly the same, or they should be, if they're playing optimal cards.
I mean, the differences you seem to have from Finkel's list is that you're not playing the best spirit (Dungeon Geists), you're playing a mediocre card just for synergy (Midnight Haunting / Doomed Traveler), you're playing too many anthems, and you're not playing some good cards.
Even with the anthems, Delver of Secrets will be a better card than Doomed Traveler most of the time, with the 20+ instants most are running.
All three of the cards you complain about only make Snapcaster Mage marginally worse. It's still really good in all of those situations. If someone is playing Grafdigger's Cage against your Snapcasters, I think you're in a really good position.
Despite not seeming as good, I can respect the anthems plan. It sort of leaves you open to a blowout from Ray of Relevation (or, Equivalently, Snapcaster + Enchantment Removal), which is a common enough sideboard card.
Please understand this is not meant as a bashing of this or that deck. I am just defending what I think is best.
I rewrote this message a couple of times because of my anger towards everyone now leaning towards Finkle's list. I do not agree with everyone about this deck. If it works for you, then run it, but just know that it isnt a Spirit deck but more along the lines of a Delver/Control style deck.
Finkel's list is probably near ideal. There are a few things worth noting: it's pre- side-boarded against certain matchups. Going up to 4 mana leaks in the main would be reasonable if your meta is full of wolf run. Finkel said Dungeon Geists was a card he always sided it in. Going to 3+ in the main seems reasonable.
Delver of Secrets is a flying 3/2 for 1. It is better than a spirit token when you have less than two anthems out, which is most of the time. I'd much rather have him than Doomed Traveler. Snapcaster is ridiculously good in any deck that can play him. "the meta is soooo diferent" is not an excuse to run Snapcaster. Indeed, Snapcaster is best in a wide open meta. You might only be able to put a few sideboard slots to a certain matchup. Doubling that number with Snapcaster is ridiculous.
Mathochism's deck is THE Spirit deck. The deck that he made, and most of us have contributed to, will probably do pretty good (top 4 without effort) in any tournament. I played more games over the weekend and my first tourny will be this coming Friday (17 Feb) with this deck. With over 20 games played, I only lost 3 times because I played a hand that I shouldnt have played due to overconfidence. My best hand was one Captain and two Images out, then top decked another Captain for a win. That isnt including the number of Spirits I had out too.
So, if you want to go play with what Finkle played with during the PT Honolulu, go right ahead. It isnt a spirit deck like the others in this thread. It is more a Delver/Human Control style.
Denegar, I am thinking about the whole 3/3 HotP/IV. I still like the 2/2 option, but I will give yours a try before this coming Friday. Also, your SB seems pretty solid.
Raygun, the whole purpose of Doomed Traveler is to do pity damage to a player until it either gets blocked for a Spirit token, or ramped up with Honor of the Pure, making it a threat. Delver is good in it's own right, but it is not meant for this deck.
As Denegar has mentioned, the deck that Finkle used is a Delver variant, which isnt what our deck is about. I will agree with you that Dungeon Geists is a great card and should be in our deck, but I believe it is a side board card. I say this because if you play with the deck that Denegar posted earlier without changing anything, you will see how powerful it can be and maybe understand why Dungeon Geists are in the SB and not in the main deck.
Svede, I forgot to mention you too. Our T2 does seem weak, but there is a reason for that. We are U/W humans or anything, so we dont necessarily need a T2 card. That is what HotP/Intangible Virtue/Mana Leak is all about. It should look like this, idealy:
T1 - Land -> Doomed Traveler or Vapor Snag on opponents turn
T2 - Land -> Honor of the Pure/Intangible Virtue or (Mana Leak during opponents turn)
T3 - Land -> Drogskol Captain/Lingering Souls or (Midnight Haunting at end of opponents turn)
T4 - Land -> Drogskol Captain/Phantasmal Image/Lingering Souls or Lingering Souls as Flashback
This is just an example of what I do, but there isnt a whole lot needed for T2 as you are setting yourself up for a major gain on T3 and T4. All situational of course.
I don't think you'll ever be winning a large tournament with Mathochism's list. Do you think it's a coincidence that every deck containing Drogskol Captain that has placed in the top sixteen at an SCG open / PT has run 4 Delver of Secrets and 0 Doomed Traveler? With three events since the release (two SCGs and a PT), nobody has made a deck containing Intangible Virtue get top 8. It's fairly obvious that Finkel's version of the deck- although it is slightly disingenuous to credit to Finkel for the list- is a better deck, at least for the current meta. While I understand that some of you just want a decent FNM deck, some of us just want to win.
Also, cards aren't sideboard cards if they're good against every single deck. The thing is, with such a creature dominated metagame, a card like Dungeon Geist, which would regularly be put as a sideboard card goes maindeck. You pre-sideboard against the meta. I mean, if you knew your meta was 90% Burning Vengeance, you'd play enchantment removal mainboard.
Finkels list was worked on by Sam Black then Tuned by GerryT. Two of the most proficent with these kind of decks. It is already being labeled Spirits every where else and Dungeon Giests is the real deal. All these Anthem effects are just better in BW Tokens.
Finkels list was worked on by Sam Black then Tuned by GerryT. Two of the most proficent with these kind of decks. It is already being labeled Spirits every where else and Dungeon Giests is the real deal. All these Anthem effects are just better in BW Tokens.
I don't think BW tokens is actually a deck. The anthem effects aren't really good anywhere right now.
First of all, I don't understand why all of you Finkels' deck lovers are here bashing our idea.
Finkel deck is awesome? yes
Snapcaster and Delver are awesome? yes
Is his deck better than our? probably, yes (at least in the PT meta)
Does we deserve that bashing? no, are you trying to convince us about something? I know how and what I want to play, and with the base already, I could buy another Snapcaster and grab some Ponder, Gitaxian Probes and Delvers and make the deck, but I want another archetype, I want to play different, even if I can't achieve a PT top8.
Hell, I like Geist of Saint Traft, why cant I play him?
I don't think that this discussion is getting us anywhere, and I would avoid being warned by a Moderator, because the thread was going well before that Finkel vs Kibler, and should go well after the match.
And yes, Dungeon Geists is awesome, I bought a playset for 3eur and I'm proud of it, but I don't want to tap an Elesh Norn, a Consecrated Sphinx, or even a Huntmaster of the Fells. And we can argue all day long, but Dungeon Geists isn't ALWAYS a mainboard card in every board of every MTG shop.
I don't think BW tokens is actually a deck. The anthem effects aren't really good anywhere right now.
Why not? god... we are not in the competitive section, not even in the developing competitive one. Chill out dude... is a deck if is playable, isn't it?
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All that being said, I have to agree with the anthem effects being underwhelming. I added two more to my deck, and at some times I've been with a lot of cards in hand that do nothing when hitting the board. Sure they are awesome because our spirits hit like a truck, but abusing of that HotP and IV makes our deck a little loaded. I, personally, I don't want to hit with a 4/4 Traft, because is going to be blocked (and probably killed) anyway, I want him to go through blockers, and with 6 (o even 8) anthems, I can't put the needed cards in the deck to assure that.
An occasionally pump to the tokens it's ok, but with the Captains and 4 anthems (I stick with 4 HotP) I think that is more than enough.
Please understand this is not meant as a bashing of this or that deck. I am just defending what I think is best.
I rewrote this message a couple of times because of my anger towards everyone now leaning towards Finkle's list. I do not agree with everyone about this deck. If it works for you, then run it, but just know that it isnt a Spirit deck but more along the lines of a Delver/Control style deck.
Mathochism's deck is THE Spirit deck. The deck that he made, and most of us have contributed to, will probably do pretty good (top 4 without effort) in any tournament. I played more games over the weekend and my first tourny will be this coming Friday (17 Feb) with this deck. With over 20 games played, I only lost 3 times because I played a hand that I shouldnt have played due to overconfidence. My best hand was one Captain and two Images out, then top decked another Captain for a win. That isnt including the number of Spirits I had out too.
So, if you want to go play with what Finkle played with during the PT Honolulu, go right ahead. It isnt a spirit deck like the others in this thread. It is more a Delver/Human Control style.
Denegar, I am thinking about the whole 3/3 HotP/IV. I still like the 2/2 option, but I will give yours a try before this coming Friday. Also, your SB seems pretty solid.
No offense, Rev, but you really don't understand what Finkel was going for. He himself called the deck a "Delver deck" so that people wouldn't know that he was playing a Spirit tribal deck, so clearly stated in his decklist. He's got 4 Lingering souls, 4 captains, 2 dungeon geists, which he boards more into in most matchups, and he has 3 images.
If that's not a "spirit deck," I don't know what is.
Not to mention, the people on this forum are pushing for these anthem effects so hard, when they're dead draws if you draw multiples and you don't have any spirits to cast. Captain is an anthem, and a broken anthem at that, and that's really all you need. You don't need gimmicks like giving your tokens +3/+3 when you've got three anthems out and no creatures to cast.
First of all, I don't understand why all of you Finkels' deck lovers are here bashing our idea.
Finkel deck is awesome? yes
Snapcaster and Delver are awesome? yes
Is his deck better than our? probably, yes (at least in the PT meta)
Does we deserve that bashing? no, are you trying to convince us about something? I know how and what I want to play, and with the base already, I could buy another Snapcaster and grab some Ponder, Gitaxian Probes and Delvers and make the deck, but I want another archetype, I want to play different, even if I can't achieve a PT top8.
Hell, I like Geist of Saint Traft, why cant I play him?
I don't think that this discussion is getting us anywhere, and I would avoid being warned by a Moderator, because the thread was going well before that Finkel vs Kibler, and should go well after the match.
And yes, Dungeon Geists is awesome, I bought a playset for 3eur and I'm proud of it, but I don't want to tap an Elesh Norn, a Consecrated Sphinx, or even a Huntmaster of the Fells. And we can argue all day long, but Dungeon Geists isn't ALWAYS a mainboard card in every board of every MTG shop.
Why not? god... we are not in the competitive section, not even in the developing competitive one. Chill out dude... is a deck if is playable, isn't it?
I dont think that he played against the deck to understand its power. Whatever. I will continue to own with my spirits and prove to others that we are the next threat to competitions around!
@Holo You are probably right. Maybe I dont know. But I do know that whoever posted that Finkle deck idea into this thread ruined what was good discussion. As if the vibe was ruined.
Nothing is ruined! But I don't think here is the best spot to discuss that PT deck Just resume our chat and whoever can give us a good advice is more than welcome!
In my testing yes, more than 4 anthems is bad. This evening, facing decks that don't want us to have creatures on board, I realized that... more than one time with 1+ anthem and no creatures is a bad thing, and even more if you have another anthem in hand I'll buy a Captain over an Intangible Virtue 100% of the time.
I'm cutting Midnight Haunting to 3, I don't want to have 2+ of those in hand waiting for an EOT, when you can cast it, you already can cast the Lingering Souls flashback, and at EOT you can put a spirit anyway with Moorland Haunt. Probably adding some spot removal mainboard, or even the Dungeon Geists, still testing.
Nothing is ruined! But I don't think here is the best spot to discuss that PT deck Just resume our chat and whoever can give us a good advice is more than welcome!
In my testing yes, more than 4 anthems is bad. This evening, facing decks that don't want us to have creatures on board, I realized that... more than one time with 1+ anthem and no creatures is a bad thing, and even more if you have another anthem in hand I'll buy a Captain over an Intangible Virtue 100% of the time.
I'm cutting Midnight Haunting to 3, I don't want to have 2+ of those in hand waiting for an EOT, when you can cast it, you already can cast the Lingering Souls flashback, and at EOT you can put a spirit anyway with Moorland Haunt. Probably adding some spot removal mainboard, or even the Dungeon Geists, still testing.
What exactly did you not like about the anthems - just not having enough creatures to use them? having 6 anthems has won me games, so that is why I am wondering. I also went down to 2 hauntings - something I hate to do, but that I felt was necessary to make room for other cards. I have been playing more with dungeon geists, too, but I still don't like them in most situations.
I think something that people need to remember is that just because a pro player does something, doesn't mean it is the best. Sure, they are better players and all, but we need to be able to think for ourselves, not sheep jumping on a bandwagon - that would take a lot of fun out of mtg. The people who are throwing around all these cards the pro players use were not in this thread until the pro players started using our captain and lingering souls. But that deck is still not a spirit deck like this thread is supposed to be about. That discussion belongs more in a delver deck thread IMHO. I am open to discussing using delver/snappy, but I don't want this thread to become a discussion on delver decks just because they share some of our key cards. Let's discuss WHY cards are good - without the reasoning that a pro is playing them (unless meat is added onto the bone to explain why the pro player likes it). I want this deck to become the best it can become, but to stay spirits.
I played this deck last weekend and ended 3-1.
Some thoughts:
1. 4 HotP is enough, I don't use Intangible Virtue and I think it's a right choice.
2. 2cc is really weak. I think Suture Priest may be a good choice.
3. I lost to mono green. Ratchet Bomb and Sword of War and Peace troubled me a lot. I will add Sword of Feast and Famine sideboard.
4. I used 3 5cc spell including Elspeth Tirel, Gideon Jura and Geist-Honored Monk. I am not sure whether they are really useful.
5. Perhaps I will add Dungeon Geists next time.
I played this deck last weekend and ended 3-1.
Some thoughts:
1. 4 HotP is enough, I don't use Intangible Virtue and I think it's a right choice.
2. 2cc is really weak. I think Suture Priest may be a good choice.
3. I lost to mono green. Ratchet Bomb and Sword of War and Peace troubled me a lot. I will add Sword of Feast and Famine sideboard.
4. I used 3 5cc spell including Elspeth Tirel, Gideon Jura and Geist-Honored Monk. I am not sure whether they are really useful.
5. Perhaps I will add Dungeon Geists next time.
Intangible Virtue is a great card with this deck. +1/+1 to all creature tokens AND vigilance? Lets fly over for 2+ damage and then soak up some damage from someone's attack. Its great in this deck, but I still think no more than 2.
The Plainswalkers I do not see very helpful in this deck. Elspeth is good for life gain and permament wipe, but....thats about it. Gideon is ok, but not more useful than Elspeth.
Lose one or two Islands and put them in as Swamps. If someone destroyed your Isolated Chapel's or Darkslick Shores, you have no way of flashing back any Lingering souls. You need to have at least one swamp in your deck in case someone does do that. You never know until it happens.
The monk can be a good card, but at 5 CMC, I would rather play a 3 CMC and an Image or some other 2 CMC card. That's just my take, but it may work for you. If so, more power to ya.
i've made adjustments to my list. removed 2 nibbles the urn and put in 2 phantasmal images main board. aside from that, i'm very happy with what i had initially brewed up. i really don't see the need for > 4cc creatures at all, unless its sun titan to get back our stuff. the deck can easily have > 9 power on the field turn 4. intangible virtue, while good, isn't necessary. most decks won't have lethal on the board by the time we power ours up, so the need to block is a lot less. i would rather not block, and take an extra 3 or 4 damage, than block and lose out on 3 or 4 more damage my next turn when i drop another captain or honor.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I played this deck last weekend and ended 3-1.
Some thoughts:
1. 4 HotP is enough, I don't use Intangible Virtue and I think it's a right choice.
2. 2cc is really weak. I think Suture Priest may be a good choice.
3. I lost to mono green. Ratchet Bomb and Sword of War and Peace troubled me a lot. I will add Sword of Feast and Famine sideboard.
4. I used 3 5cc spell including Elspeth Tirel, Gideon Jura and Geist-Honored Monk. I am not sure whether they are really useful.
5. Perhaps I will add Dungeon Geists next time.
Maybe Stony Silence to shut down Ratchet Bombs in advance? Or is that even less reliable than hoping you have counterspells for them?
Stony Silence does shut down Ratchet recursion with Sun Titan, I think, so there's also that.
Okay, since Finkel's entire list was shot down, I am going to just point out that if you aren't playing Lingering Souls, you are doing it wrong. Esper is a really easy color structure to maintain, particularly with B only being a splash. Let's face it, Souls is a strictly better Midnight Haunting (especially here in a tapout strategy).
Now, with Finkel's words of advice on Moorland... you should be running 2 max, because you never want to see multiples.
(still trying to figure out why Delver and Snapcaster are out of bounds if you aren't playing a "Delver" deck. A good card is a good card. Sure, if your deck is creature heavy then they don't fit, but all I'm seeing is arguments about theme dilution etc. etc. Even 1 or 2 Snapcasters can be the right decision, but any list that has a reasonable number of instants and sorceries (midnight haunting, vapor snag (btw, major tempo card), leak etc.) is going to be inherently worse without Snapcasters.)
Okay, since Finkel's entire list was shot down, I am going to just point out that if you aren't playing Lingering Souls, you are doing it wrong. Esper is a really easy color structure to maintain, particularly with B only being a splash. Let's face it, Souls is a strictly better Midnight Haunting (especially here in a tapout strategy).
Now, with Finkel's words of advice on Moorland... you should be running 2 max, because you never want to see multiples.
(still trying to figure out why Delver and Snapcaster are out of bounds if you aren't playing a "Delver" deck. A good card is a good card. Sure, if your deck is creature heavy then they don't fit, but all I'm seeing is arguments about theme dilution etc. etc. Even 1 or 2 Snapcasters can be the right decision, but any list that has a reasonable number of instants and sorceries (midnight haunting, vapor snag (btw, major tempo card), leak etc.) is going to be inherently worse without Snapcasters.)
Just to be clear, I have no issue with running delver or snappie in this deck - I just want better arguments than that it was in finkel's deck - a deck which was admittedly a different (though similar) archetype than this deck is meant to be. Additionally, he obviously has a strong deck, but it is a delver deck, not a spirit deck so telling us we must change to his deck seems out of place - why not tell other decks to do the same? In any case, please understand we are not trying to just shoot stuff down, but to think through everything reasonably without just jumping on bandwagons. I have tested with delver/snappie and just dont like the synergy of them in this deck. Snappie does best in decks with low CMC instants/sorceries, but we have a lot of 3 CMC ones (in my deck half of them are 3 CMC, used to be an even higher %). In a meta where faster aggro decks already do a lot to us, playing snappie on a 3 CMC spell means we need to be at 5 CMC at which time I would rather play a bomb or something - or at least something that has more power. With the addition of vapor snags by a lot of people, snappie does become more powerful in our deck, but I am still not convinced.
As for only 2 moorlands, I have considered doing the same to solidify my mana base a bit. I went up to 3 originally because I was not always getting a moorland and I think it is key to our strategy. Maybe I should go back to 2 however. Finkel's mana base, though his deck is much more blue than mine, is definitely something I am toying around with to see if I can use any of it to my benefit.
As for only 2 moorlands, I have considered doing the same to solidify my mana base a bit. I went up to 3 originally because I was not always getting a moorland and I think it is key to our strategy. Maybe I should go back to 2 however. Finkel's mana base, though his deck is much more blue than mine, is definitely something I am toying around with to see if I can use any of it to my benefit.
Something i was wondering was what should be our 1st drops and after i saw Finkel deck I thought that they were completely useless if you want to have more than 17 creatures into your deck. I mean, why ponder while you can drop a more resilient creature like Doomed and/or mana correction that survives and holds control and aggressive decks. So i agree when people say that Delver don't have a place on this deck.
Doomed Traveler is a great card if it dies. Most people realize this and now start to let it go through, it is just 1 damage a turn. While once the Delver is flipped, it becomes a 3/2 Flyer that makes sure your opponent have to deal with it. So while the Traveler doesn't have to be dealt with until your opponent wants to, the Delver is something your opponent has to take care of.
Also as a 2nd drop you should consider Shrine of Loyal Legions, that seems a good option for us after a sweeper and could hold a whipflare easily. Or maybe a Sun to correct our manabase and accelerates a 4th drop or a snap leak.
This isn't bad, actually the Sun is your best option if you want to go that route. But the best thing to do is play multiple Travelers or Delvers. Or use it to counter their Thalia.
And finally about dungeon i agree he deserves at least 2 on main but i am also wondering if we should not switch it for Tower Geist it is a 2/2 flying spirit body that makes you draw 2!!! cards and drop one. If you have the snap on hands this could mean you draw 2 cards sometimes. But I'm afraid we don't have more space for it on our decks.
If you are playing the Ponders and the Probes, you don't need the extra drawability. But a 3/3 that taps a dude till they get rid of your creature is nice. Say I tap your Geist of Saint Traft, you can't play another until it becomes untapped. That hinders so many people.
Just to be clear, I have no issue with running delver or snappie in this deck - I just want better arguments than that it was in finkel's deck - a deck which was admittedly a different (though similar) archetype than this deck is meant to be. Additionally, he obviously has a strong deck, but it is a delver deck, not a spirit deck so telling us we must change to his deck seems out of place - why not tell other decks to do the same? In any case, please understand we are not trying to just shoot stuff down, but to think through everything reasonably without just jumping on bandwagons. I have tested with delver/snappie and just dont like the synergy of them in this deck. Snappie does best in decks with low CMC instants/sorceries, but we have a lot of 3 CMC ones (in my deck half of them are 3 CMC, used to be an even higher %). In a meta where faster aggro decks already do a lot to us, playing snappie on a 3 CMC spell means we need to be at 5 CMC at which time I would rather play a bomb or something - or at least something that has more power. With the addition of vapor snags by a lot of people, snappie does become more powerful in our deck, but I am still not convinced.
Thanks!
Well, the reason people are visiting this forum and comparing the deck to Finkel's, is because he managed to pilot spirits to a top 8 finish at the Pro Tour. The usual delver decks are traditional control builds, while the spirits deck he used was more tap-out. His deck doesn't really fit exactly well with the Delver label. The thing is, there are a few labels now for this sort of deck. There's Illusions, Runechanter's Pike, Spirits, etc, and they all play sort of differently. The spirits lists here feel closer in style to Finkel's list than some Runechanter's Pike builds do.
In truth, I don't think the reason to go into the Delver / Snapcaster build is because they're good. The reason to go into that build is because the Honor of the Pure / Intangible Virtue plan is worse. This is the real question when building a list. I can't see any reason to not go into a Finkel type list unless you're on this plan. You should either be running six anthems, or running Finkel's list. It's really what the decision boils down to.
I don't like the anthems plan. I know that anybody that can play Ray of Revelation in the sideboard does, and anybody who has Snapcaster can go Disenchant -> Snapcaster -> Disenchant. I feel too open to a blowout against a prepared opponent. And because it means I don't have Snapcaster, I don't have the versatility that Snapcaster Mage brings along. Against a player with enough counterspells, they just let the Anthems resolve and counter the real threats.
There's also the issue that the anthems plan makes you a deck that really plays too many three drops. I'm honestly astounded that people don't consistently run 4 Ponder in this thread. If your only one drop is Doomed Traveler, you wont be doing anything on turn 1 the majority of the time.
The reason to switch to a Finkel like list is to take the good elements of Spirits- the strength of Drogskol Captain and Lingering Souls, ditch the mediocre elements, and make a better deck.
This is the exact same thing that happened to Illusions. The weak elements of that deck were taken out- which ended up being the Lord of Illusions, mostly, and better cards were put in its place. The people on that forum reacted the exact same way people here are reacting to the changes to Spirits that are happening right now. They rejected the changes and said the new deck "wasn't Illusions". In the end, the changes ended up being the right way to go.
You try to make a deck out of a under normal circumstances hopeless archetype and then you get the great gift of it actually proving to be viable and at the forefront of the meta and then you refuse to play it...
lol?
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"Creatures are the worst part of magic, if you want to play creatures, play pokemon."
You try to make a deck out of a under normal circumstances hopeless archetype and then you get the great gift of it actually proving to be viable and at the forefront of the meta and then you refuse to play it...
lol?
A gift? The idea of playing Snapcaster and Delver with the Spirits isn't a idea of Finkels' team. It has been discussed in these forums since DKA came out, Finkel is a great (one of the best) player, but he isn't a Messiah, he didn't create anything by himself, so that PT didn't open our eyes in front of something new, it only proved that is viable and probably one of the best archetypes right now.
That being said, no one is refusing that deck, hell that deck is awesome, and I'm probably gonna play it too, but that isn't what we are discussing here. This thread is about a more tokenish version of Spirits, I don't know what do you guys don't understand...
Esper Spirits, or Esper Delver, or Delver Spirits or WHATEVER is discussed in another thread of mtgsalvation, in the Competitive section. Give us alone with our underwhelming deck and go there to discuss Finkels' list.
TL;DR: Finkels' deck is THE BOMB, but please, discuss it in the appropriate part of the forums, thank you. If not, probably the mods are going to warn us for getting out of context. Please.
This thread is about a more tokenish version of Spirits, I don't know what do you guys don't understand...
Well the thread is called "[Primer] U/W Spirits"
so it just seemed to us that this would be the thread to discuss the deck which is U/W Spirits.. but if this is actually [Primer] MY "token spirits" DECK then ok we will find a different thread.
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"Creatures are the worst part of magic, if you want to play creatures, play pokemon."
Doomed Traveler is a great card if it dies. Most people realize this and now start to let it go through, it is just 1 damage a turn. While once the Delver is flipped, it becomes a 3/2 Flyer that makes sure your opponent have to deal with it. So while the Traveler doesn't have to be dealt with until your opponent wants to, the Delver is something your opponent has to take care of.
This isn't bad, actually the Sun is your best option if you want to go that route. But the best thing to do is play multiple Travelers or Delvers. Or use it to counter their Thalia.
If you are playing the Ponders and the Probes, you don't need the extra drawability. But a 3/3 that taps a dude till they get rid of your creature is nice. Say I tap your Geist of Saint Traft, you can't play another until it becomes untapped. That hinders so many people.
Thank you for the thought and explanation put into your post. This helps a lot more in considering other cards rather than just suggesting that we should play it because a pro player does. I agree that doomed can be easily ignored and delver has huge bonus on that. However, with HotP doomed can become 2/2 or 3/3 (sans flying) and force them to do something about him - he's not always just a ping. Also, one of my favorite reasons for him is because board wipes hurt this deck and he is one of the most resilient aspects to it - they will know that wiping the deck he comes back with flying and whatever buffs he had from anthems. I do think you points are very valid, however, for considering delver and I might test around with it to see where it goes. I still think that geist should be included in the deck as he is a powerhouse bomb at 3 CMC that must be answered or it is GG. Also, he has hexproof so you can't tap him. However, I am trying 2 dungeon geists in my deck again. Didn't work so well when I first tried it, but my deck has evolved a bit so maybe now it will work better.
Well, the reason people are visiting this forum and comparing the deck to Finkel's, is because he managed to pilot spirits to a top 8 finish at the Pro Tour. The usual delver decks are traditional control builds, while the spirits deck he used was more tap-out. His deck doesn't really fit exactly well with the Delver label. The thing is, there are a few labels now for this sort of deck. There's Illusions, Runechanter's Pike, Spirits, etc, and they all play sort of differently. The spirits lists here feel closer in style to Finkel's list than some Runechanter's Pike builds do.
In truth, I don't think the reason to go into the Delver / Snapcaster build is because they're good. The reason to go into that build is because the Honor of the Pure / Intangible Virtue plan is worse. This is the real question when building a list. I can't see any reason to not go into a Finkel type list unless you're on this plan. You should either be running six anthems, or running Finkel's list. It's really what the decision boils down to.
I don't like the anthems plan. I know that anybody that can play Ray of Revelation in the sideboard does, and anybody who has Snapcaster can go Disenchant -> Snapcaster -> Disenchant. I feel too open to a blowout against a prepared opponent. And because it means I don't have Snapcaster, I don't have the versatility that Snapcaster Mage brings along. Against a player with enough counterspells, they just let the Anthems resolve and counter the real threats.
There's also the issue that the anthems plan makes you a deck that really plays too many three drops. I'm honestly astounded that people don't consistently run 4 Ponder in this thread. If your only one drop is Doomed Traveler, you wont be doing anything on turn 1 the majority of the time.
The reason to switch to a Finkel like list is to take the good elements of Spirits- the strength of Drogskol Captain and Lingering Souls, ditch the mediocre elements, and make a better deck.
This is the exact same thing that happened to Illusions. The weak elements of that deck were taken out- which ended up being the Lord of Illusions, mostly, and better cards were put in its place. The people on that forum reacted the exact same way people here are reacting to the changes to Spirits that are happening right now. They rejected the changes and said the new deck "wasn't Illusions". In the end, the changes ended up being the right way to go.
I understand how they are similar and really do appreciate your lengthy and reasoned post. I just think a lot of us wanted to keep the unique flavor of spirits/tokens in this thread. That being said, I am very open to many of Finkel's additions - I just want to know the why. I want to think before I do. If I don't know why, then I wont be able to play the deck correctly anyways and I am better off sticking with what I know.
I am curious, though, have you actually played with anthems? Anthems wreck so many decks and are a big boost to the way this deck wins. I admit that anti-enchantment can hurt us a lot, but if they are running that they probably have less other stuff to counter us (i.e., board wipes, etc) so we still win. I love 6 anthems because it ensures 1 and possibly 2, but it can sometimes clog - fully agree on that point. I am trying going back to just 4 HotP and 1 intangible in the SB, so that I can mainboard dungeon geists. I am also testing snappie again (earlier in this thread you might have noticed that a number of us had already tested him and he didn't work out great, but since then we have started running vapor snag so now might be the time), but only as a 2-of.
A gift? The idea of playing Snapcaster and Delver with the Spirits isn't a idea of Finkels' team. It has been discussed in these forums since DKA came out, Finkel is a great (one of the best) player, but he isn't a Messiah, he didn't create anything by himself, so that PT didn't open our eyes in front of something new, it only proved that is viable and probably one of the best archetypes right now.
That being said, no one is refusing that deck, hell that deck is awesome, and I'm probably gonna play it too, but that isn't what we are discussing here. This thread is about a more tokenish version of Spirits, I don't know what do you guys don't understand...
Esper Spirits, or Esper Delver, or Delver Spirits or WHATEVER is discussed in another thread of mtgsalvation, in the Competitive section. Give us alone with our underwhelming deck and go there to discuss Finkels' list.
TL;DR: Finkels' deck is THE BOMB, but please, discuss it in the appropriate part of the forums, thank you. If not, probably the mods are going to warn us for getting out of context. Please.
Completely agreed. I often see pros with a card in their deck that other pros of the same archetype don't have. So who then is right and who is wrong? The answer is nobody. Obviously, the cards he added are powerful, but it also changes the dynamics of the deck to a style different from the one we are doing. Perhaps that is the right way to go, but 1 PT doesn't solidify it. We need to use our brains and assess all changes.
You try to make a deck out of a under normal circumstances hopeless archetype and then you get the great gift of it actually proving to be viable and at the forefront of the meta and then you refuse to play it...
lol?
Really? i didnt see or hear about drogskol captain being in a tier 1 deck before we saw it at that pt..
Well the thread is called "[Primer] U/W Spirits"
so it just seemed to us that this would be the thread to discuss the deck which is U/W Spirits.. but if this is actually [Primer] MY "token spirits" DECK then ok we will find a different thread.
I'd really like to keep this thread civil. Let's stay on topic and add thoughtful reasoning and not flaming comments before mods have to do something please.
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Finkel's list is basically what an ideal UW spirits list would look like. The fact is, decks like Spirits, Illusions, and Delver are all roughly the same, or they should be, if they're playing optimal cards.
I mean, the differences you seem to have from Finkel's list is that you're not playing the best spirit (Dungeon Geists), you're playing a mediocre card just for synergy (Midnight Haunting / Doomed Traveler), you're playing too many anthems, and you're not playing some good cards.
Even with the anthems, Delver of Secrets will be a better card than Doomed Traveler most of the time, with the 20+ instants most are running.
All three of the cards you complain about only make Snapcaster Mage marginally worse. It's still really good in all of those situations. If someone is playing Grafdigger's Cage against your Snapcasters, I think you're in a really good position.
Despite not seeming as good, I can respect the anthems plan. It sort of leaves you open to a blowout from Ray of Relevation (or, Equivalently, Snapcaster + Enchantment Removal), which is a common enough sideboard card.
I rewrote this message a couple of times because of my anger towards everyone now leaning towards Finkle's list. I do not agree with everyone about this deck. If it works for you, then run it, but just know that it isnt a Spirit deck but more along the lines of a Delver/Control style deck.
Mathochism's deck is THE Spirit deck. The deck that he made, and most of us have contributed to, will probably do pretty good (top 4 without effort) in any tournament. I played more games over the weekend and my first tourny will be this coming Friday (17 Feb) with this deck. With over 20 games played, I only lost 3 times because I played a hand that I shouldnt have played due to overconfidence. My best hand was one Captain and two Images out, then top decked another Captain for a win. That isnt including the number of Spirits I had out too.
So, if you want to go play with what Finkle played with during the PT Honolulu, go right ahead. It isnt a spirit deck like the others in this thread. It is more a Delver/Human Control style.
Denegar, I am thinking about the whole 3/3 HotP/IV. I still like the 2/2 option, but I will give yours a try before this coming Friday. Also, your SB seems pretty solid.
As Denegar has mentioned, the deck that Finkle used is a Delver variant, which isnt what our deck is about. I will agree with you that Dungeon Geists is a great card and should be in our deck, but I believe it is a side board card. I say this because if you play with the deck that Denegar posted earlier without changing anything, you will see how powerful it can be and maybe understand why Dungeon Geists are in the SB and not in the main deck.
Svede, I forgot to mention you too. Our T2 does seem weak, but there is a reason for that. We are U/W humans or anything, so we dont necessarily need a T2 card. That is what HotP/Intangible Virtue/Mana Leak is all about. It should look like this, idealy:
T1 - Land -> Doomed Traveler or Vapor Snag on opponents turn
T2 - Land -> Honor of the Pure/Intangible Virtue or (Mana Leak during opponents turn)
T3 - Land -> Drogskol Captain/Lingering Souls or (Midnight Haunting at end of opponents turn)
T4 - Land -> Drogskol Captain/Phantasmal Image/Lingering Souls or Lingering Souls as Flashback
This is just an example of what I do, but there isnt a whole lot needed for T2 as you are setting yourself up for a major gain on T3 and T4. All situational of course.
Also, cards aren't sideboard cards if they're good against every single deck. The thing is, with such a creature dominated metagame, a card like Dungeon Geist, which would regularly be put as a sideboard card goes maindeck. You pre-sideboard against the meta. I mean, if you knew your meta was 90% Burning Vengeance, you'd play enchantment removal mainboard.
Daretti
Ezuri
Captain Sisay (In work)
I don't think BW tokens is actually a deck. The anthem effects aren't really good anywhere right now.
Finkel deck is awesome? yes
Snapcaster and Delver are awesome? yes
Is his deck better than our? probably, yes (at least in the PT meta)
Does we deserve that bashing? no, are you trying to convince us about something? I know how and what I want to play, and with the base already, I could buy another Snapcaster and grab some Ponder, Gitaxian Probes and Delvers and make the deck, but I want another archetype, I want to play different, even if I can't achieve a PT top8.
Hell, I like Geist of Saint Traft, why cant I play him?
I don't think that this discussion is getting us anywhere, and I would avoid being warned by a Moderator, because the thread was going well before that Finkel vs Kibler, and should go well after the match.
And yes, Dungeon Geists is awesome, I bought a playset for 3eur and I'm proud of it, but I don't want to tap an Elesh Norn, a Consecrated Sphinx, or even a Huntmaster of the Fells. And we can argue all day long, but Dungeon Geists isn't ALWAYS a mainboard card in every board of every MTG shop.
Why not? god... we are not in the competitive section, not even in the developing competitive one. Chill out dude... is a deck if is playable, isn't it?
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All that being said, I have to agree with the anthem effects being underwhelming. I added two more to my deck, and at some times I've been with a lot of cards in hand that do nothing when hitting the board. Sure they are awesome because our spirits hit like a truck, but abusing of that HotP and IV makes our deck a little loaded. I, personally, I don't want to hit with a 4/4 Traft, because is going to be blocked (and probably killed) anyway, I want him to go through blockers, and with 6 (o even 8) anthems, I can't put the needed cards in the deck to assure that.
An occasionally pump to the tokens it's ok, but with the Captains and 4 anthems (I stick with 4 HotP) I think that is more than enough.
No offense, Rev, but you really don't understand what Finkel was going for. He himself called the deck a "Delver deck" so that people wouldn't know that he was playing a Spirit tribal deck, so clearly stated in his decklist. He's got 4 Lingering souls, 4 captains, 2 dungeon geists, which he boards more into in most matchups, and he has 3 images.
If that's not a "spirit deck," I don't know what is.
Not to mention, the people on this forum are pushing for these anthem effects so hard, when they're dead draws if you draw multiples and you don't have any spirits to cast. Captain is an anthem, and a broken anthem at that, and that's really all you need. You don't need gimmicks like giving your tokens +3/+3 when you've got three anthems out and no creatures to cast.
I dont think that he played against the deck to understand its power. Whatever. I will continue to own with my spirits and prove to others that we are the next threat to competitions around!
@Holo You are probably right. Maybe I dont know. But I do know that whoever posted that Finkle deck idea into this thread ruined what was good discussion. As if the vibe was ruined.
In my testing yes, more than 4 anthems is bad. This evening, facing decks that don't want us to have creatures on board, I realized that... more than one time with 1+ anthem and no creatures is a bad thing, and even more if you have another anthem in hand I'll buy a Captain over an Intangible Virtue 100% of the time.
I'm cutting Midnight Haunting to 3, I don't want to have 2+ of those in hand waiting for an EOT, when you can cast it, you already can cast the Lingering Souls flashback, and at EOT you can put a spirit anyway with Moorland Haunt. Probably adding some spot removal mainboard, or even the Dungeon Geists, still testing.
What exactly did you not like about the anthems - just not having enough creatures to use them? having 6 anthems has won me games, so that is why I am wondering. I also went down to 2 hauntings - something I hate to do, but that I felt was necessary to make room for other cards. I have been playing more with dungeon geists, too, but I still don't like them in most situations.
I think something that people need to remember is that just because a pro player does something, doesn't mean it is the best. Sure, they are better players and all, but we need to be able to think for ourselves, not sheep jumping on a bandwagon - that would take a lot of fun out of mtg. The people who are throwing around all these cards the pro players use were not in this thread until the pro players started using our captain and lingering souls. But that deck is still not a spirit deck like this thread is supposed to be about. That discussion belongs more in a delver deck thread IMHO. I am open to discussing using delver/snappy, but I don't want this thread to become a discussion on delver decks just because they share some of our key cards. Let's discuss WHY cards are good - without the reasoning that a pro is playing them (unless meat is added onto the bone to explain why the pro player likes it). I want this deck to become the best it can become, but to stay spirits.
Also, any thoughts on Suture Priest??
Thanks!
4x Doomed Travler
2x Niblis of the Urn
2x Phantasmal Image
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Drogskol Captain
1x Geist-Honored Monk
Planeswalkers
1x Elspeth Tirel
1x Gideon Jura
Enchantments
4x Honor of the Pure
Instant and Sorcery
1x Steel Sabotage
3x Vapor Snag
4x Mana Leak
4x Ligering Souls
2x Sword of War and Peace
Lands
1x Isolated Chapel
2x Darkslick Shores
3x Moorland Haunt
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Island
6x Plain
1x Mental Misstep
1x Steel Sabotage
1x Divine Offering
1x Flashfreeze
1x Celestial Purge
1x Spectral Rider
2x Dissipate
2x Revoke Existence
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Timely Reinforcements
I played this deck last weekend and ended 3-1.
Some thoughts:
1. 4 HotP is enough, I don't use Intangible Virtue and I think it's a right choice.
2. 2cc is really weak. I think Suture Priest may be a good choice.
3. I lost to mono green. Ratchet Bomb and Sword of War and Peace troubled me a lot. I will add Sword of Feast and Famine sideboard.
4. I used 3 5cc spell including Elspeth Tirel, Gideon Jura and Geist-Honored Monk. I am not sure whether they are really useful.
5. Perhaps I will add Dungeon Geists next time.
Intangible Virtue is a great card with this deck. +1/+1 to all creature tokens AND vigilance? Lets fly over for 2+ damage and then soak up some damage from someone's attack. Its great in this deck, but I still think no more than 2.
The Plainswalkers I do not see very helpful in this deck. Elspeth is good for life gain and permament wipe, but....thats about it. Gideon is ok, but not more useful than Elspeth.
Lose one or two Islands and put them in as Swamps. If someone destroyed your Isolated Chapel's or Darkslick Shores, you have no way of flashing back any Lingering souls. You need to have at least one swamp in your deck in case someone does do that. You never know until it happens.
The monk can be a good card, but at 5 CMC, I would rather play a 3 CMC and an Image or some other 2 CMC card. That's just my take, but it may work for you. If so, more power to ya.
Maybe Stony Silence to shut down Ratchet Bombs in advance? Or is that even less reliable than hoping you have counterspells for them?
Stony Silence does shut down Ratchet recursion with Sun Titan, I think, so there's also that.
Now, with Finkel's words of advice on Moorland... you should be running 2 max, because you never want to see multiples.
(still trying to figure out why Delver and Snapcaster are out of bounds if you aren't playing a "Delver" deck. A good card is a good card. Sure, if your deck is creature heavy then they don't fit, but all I'm seeing is arguments about theme dilution etc. etc. Even 1 or 2 Snapcasters can be the right decision, but any list that has a reasonable number of instants and sorceries (midnight haunting, vapor snag (btw, major tempo card), leak etc.) is going to be inherently worse without Snapcasters.)
Just to be clear, I have no issue with running delver or snappie in this deck - I just want better arguments than that it was in finkel's deck - a deck which was admittedly a different (though similar) archetype than this deck is meant to be. Additionally, he obviously has a strong deck, but it is a delver deck, not a spirit deck so telling us we must change to his deck seems out of place - why not tell other decks to do the same? In any case, please understand we are not trying to just shoot stuff down, but to think through everything reasonably without just jumping on bandwagons. I have tested with delver/snappie and just dont like the synergy of them in this deck. Snappie does best in decks with low CMC instants/sorceries, but we have a lot of 3 CMC ones (in my deck half of them are 3 CMC, used to be an even higher %). In a meta where faster aggro decks already do a lot to us, playing snappie on a 3 CMC spell means we need to be at 5 CMC at which time I would rather play a bomb or something - or at least something that has more power. With the addition of vapor snags by a lot of people, snappie does become more powerful in our deck, but I am still not convinced.
As for only 2 moorlands, I have considered doing the same to solidify my mana base a bit. I went up to 3 originally because I was not always getting a moorland and I think it is key to our strategy. Maybe I should go back to 2 however. Finkel's mana base, though his deck is much more blue than mine, is definitely something I am toying around with to see if I can use any of it to my benefit.
Thanks!
I highly suggest:
2 Moorland Haunt
3 Darkslick Shore
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Isolated Chapel
2 Islands
1 Swamp
5 Plains
It works really well with the cards that we tend to use.
Doomed Traveler is a great card if it dies. Most people realize this and now start to let it go through, it is just 1 damage a turn. While once the Delver is flipped, it becomes a 3/2 Flyer that makes sure your opponent have to deal with it. So while the Traveler doesn't have to be dealt with until your opponent wants to, the Delver is something your opponent has to take care of.
This isn't bad, actually the Sun is your best option if you want to go that route. But the best thing to do is play multiple Travelers or Delvers. Or use it to counter their Thalia.
If you are playing the Ponders and the Probes, you don't need the extra drawability. But a 3/3 that taps a dude till they get rid of your creature is nice. Say I tap your Geist of Saint Traft, you can't play another until it becomes untapped. That hinders so many people.
Well, the reason people are visiting this forum and comparing the deck to Finkel's, is because he managed to pilot spirits to a top 8 finish at the Pro Tour. The usual delver decks are traditional control builds, while the spirits deck he used was more tap-out. His deck doesn't really fit exactly well with the Delver label. The thing is, there are a few labels now for this sort of deck. There's Illusions, Runechanter's Pike, Spirits, etc, and they all play sort of differently. The spirits lists here feel closer in style to Finkel's list than some Runechanter's Pike builds do.
In truth, I don't think the reason to go into the Delver / Snapcaster build is because they're good. The reason to go into that build is because the Honor of the Pure / Intangible Virtue plan is worse. This is the real question when building a list. I can't see any reason to not go into a Finkel type list unless you're on this plan. You should either be running six anthems, or running Finkel's list. It's really what the decision boils down to.
I don't like the anthems plan. I know that anybody that can play Ray of Revelation in the sideboard does, and anybody who has Snapcaster can go Disenchant -> Snapcaster -> Disenchant. I feel too open to a blowout against a prepared opponent. And because it means I don't have Snapcaster, I don't have the versatility that Snapcaster Mage brings along. Against a player with enough counterspells, they just let the Anthems resolve and counter the real threats.
There's also the issue that the anthems plan makes you a deck that really plays too many three drops. I'm honestly astounded that people don't consistently run 4 Ponder in this thread. If your only one drop is Doomed Traveler, you wont be doing anything on turn 1 the majority of the time.
The reason to switch to a Finkel like list is to take the good elements of Spirits- the strength of Drogskol Captain and Lingering Souls, ditch the mediocre elements, and make a better deck.
This is the exact same thing that happened to Illusions. The weak elements of that deck were taken out- which ended up being the Lord of Illusions, mostly, and better cards were put in its place. The people on that forum reacted the exact same way people here are reacting to the changes to Spirits that are happening right now. They rejected the changes and said the new deck "wasn't Illusions". In the end, the changes ended up being the right way to go.
Quite hard to tap Geist since he has hexproof...
lol?
A gift? The idea of playing Snapcaster and Delver with the Spirits isn't a idea of Finkels' team. It has been discussed in these forums since DKA came out, Finkel is a great (one of the best) player, but he isn't a Messiah, he didn't create anything by himself, so that PT didn't open our eyes in front of something new, it only proved that is viable and probably one of the best archetypes right now.
That being said, no one is refusing that deck, hell that deck is awesome, and I'm probably gonna play it too, but that isn't what we are discussing here. This thread is about a more tokenish version of Spirits, I don't know what do you guys don't understand...
Esper Spirits, or Esper Delver, or Delver Spirits or WHATEVER is discussed in another thread of mtgsalvation, in the Competitive section. Give us alone with our underwhelming deck and go there to discuss Finkels' list.
TL;DR: Finkels' deck is THE BOMB, but please, discuss it in the appropriate part of the forums, thank you. If not, probably the mods are going to warn us for getting out of context. Please.
Really? i didnt see or hear about drogskol captain being in a tier 1 deck before we saw it at that pt..
Well the thread is called "[Primer] U/W Spirits"
so it just seemed to us that this would be the thread to discuss the deck which is U/W Spirits.. but if this is actually [Primer] MY "token spirits" DECK then ok we will find a different thread.
Thank you for the thought and explanation put into your post. This helps a lot more in considering other cards rather than just suggesting that we should play it because a pro player does. I agree that doomed can be easily ignored and delver has huge bonus on that. However, with HotP doomed can become 2/2 or 3/3 (sans flying) and force them to do something about him - he's not always just a ping. Also, one of my favorite reasons for him is because board wipes hurt this deck and he is one of the most resilient aspects to it - they will know that wiping the deck he comes back with flying and whatever buffs he had from anthems. I do think you points are very valid, however, for considering delver and I might test around with it to see where it goes. I still think that geist should be included in the deck as he is a powerhouse bomb at 3 CMC that must be answered or it is GG. Also, he has hexproof so you can't tap him. However, I am trying 2 dungeon geists in my deck again. Didn't work so well when I first tried it, but my deck has evolved a bit so maybe now it will work better.
I understand how they are similar and really do appreciate your lengthy and reasoned post. I just think a lot of us wanted to keep the unique flavor of spirits/tokens in this thread. That being said, I am very open to many of Finkel's additions - I just want to know the why. I want to think before I do. If I don't know why, then I wont be able to play the deck correctly anyways and I am better off sticking with what I know.
I am curious, though, have you actually played with anthems? Anthems wreck so many decks and are a big boost to the way this deck wins. I admit that anti-enchantment can hurt us a lot, but if they are running that they probably have less other stuff to counter us (i.e., board wipes, etc) so we still win. I love 6 anthems because it ensures 1 and possibly 2, but it can sometimes clog - fully agree on that point. I am trying going back to just 4 HotP and 1 intangible in the SB, so that I can mainboard dungeon geists. I am also testing snappie again (earlier in this thread you might have noticed that a number of us had already tested him and he didn't work out great, but since then we have started running vapor snag so now might be the time), but only as a 2-of.
Completely agreed. I often see pros with a card in their deck that other pros of the same archetype don't have. So who then is right and who is wrong? The answer is nobody. Obviously, the cards he added are powerful, but it also changes the dynamics of the deck to a style different from the one we are doing. Perhaps that is the right way to go, but 1 PT doesn't solidify it. We need to use our brains and assess all changes.
I'd really like to keep this thread civil. Let's stay on topic and add thoughtful reasoning and not flaming comments before mods have to do something please.