The thing I'm seeing is that so many of these decks look almost exactly like pod decks. Anyone consider running 3 Heartless and 3 Pod? Maybe a mash between the two strategy?
@AlCon... love the build and the fact you're testing Unburial Rites.
I've looked at Pod builds, and they seem to contradict each other. Pod tries to cheat out creatures, whereas Summoning decks focus on hardcasting them cheaper. If you Pod Skinrender -> Acidic Slime -> Titan, Summoning will just be hindering your creatures. You could run maybe 1 or 2 tech Pods in a normal Summoning deck, as a backup plan in case your Summoning gets Memoricided or Surgical Extracted.
That's what I was thinking. That and Pod decks make sure that their builds are playable without Pods. So Slimes -> are good... but Slimes alone are usually just as relevant. Either way, both decks want Slimes on turn 3-4... so you see where I'm drawing the conclusion. The only difference is that you Pod out the Slime as opposed to let him do his dirty work on the field. while you're dropping another threat at two mana cheaper.
That and Pod decks aren't as aggressive early game. They usually DON'T run creatures like Superion because it kills the chain. This would give the best of both worlds running 2 Pods in the Side against more controling build. It's a way to avoid running into counters.
What do you guys think is the strongest, most consistent overall build for this deck? I think Jund, because they have access to lots of mana fixing, and they get Priest of Urabrask, Inferno Titan, Viridian Emissary, Skinrender, Bloodgift Demon, Glissa, Acidic Slime, etc. However, three color builds can be inconsistent.
Wanted to weigh in on this topic as Heartless Summoning stands out to me as one of the true power cards of the set and can lead to some broken plays. While I don't have a workable decklist I'm experimenting with the following cards:
Myr Superion: A 4/5 for free isn't a bad deal especially if you drop more than one at a time. Sure, it does make it vulnerable to Dismember but what (besides Titans) isn't these days?
Chancellor of the Tangle: Allows for a turn one Heartless and potential turn one Superion drop or if two are in hand, can drop a Myr on it's own.
Priest of Urabrask: Heartless basically turns this into a sorcery speed dark ritual. While you lose the Priest with the Summoning out, you still can actually net mana gain from this and cast 7cc creatures as early as turn 3, namely...
Sheoldred, Whispering One: A game changer. Allows for reanimating Chancellors and Superions without having to rely on creature mana while affecting your opponents side of the Board as well.
Perilous Myr: A colorless Shock for free. Recurrable with Sheoldred.
Brimstone Volley: Castable off a dead priest or Perilous Myr.
Palladium Myr: Jury still out on this, but it stays in play with Heartless Summoning out. Almost like having a Sol Ring on a stick (almost) and back-up plan for Superions.
Seems like some good synergies available and the makings for competitive deck but some questions remain, like how I might discard a Chancellor after the first turn if I don't want to incorporate green into the mana base and what other cards would make the deck optimal.
Questions/comments welcomed.
Chancellor of the Tangle actually has no compatibility with casting Myr Superion. I strongly dislike Superion in my initial assessment of how this deck can look. If it proves to be good, I'll happily eat my words, but inconsistent card is inconsistent.
Jace bounce was a -1. He could do it 3 times before he would die. Liliana can only do it once before having to do her +1. Overall very disappointed with her unless we get Madness.
Crap, you're right, she's not as good as one of the single most overpowered cards ever printed. Unplayable!
I would only run myr superion if I was also running grand architect. That way you have up to 8 cards to cheat him into play making sure that hes never a dead card.
I really like how it plays mid to late game (without Heartless) but it's the first couple of turns that are difficult to manage. However, the creature package is varied enough to gain advantages either in measurable hand size or more tempo-related, which makes it difficult for linear strategies to overcome. Any and all suggestions are welcome, just please include reasons for suggestions, lol.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
April is the cruelest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Dull roots with spring rain.
So yeah, this is a deck-list I made whilst trying to build around Heartless Summoning. Unlike other decks I've ran into utilizing the card, this one is built around a control shell rather than ramp. So yeah, I think I need help with my land-base the most. It seems inconsistent for some reason. But yeah, any other suggestions you all could give me would be greatly appreciated. Anyway, here's the deck-list:
IMO in a HS deck there must be solem simulacrum alsoi f you play black where is the bloodgift demon the card draw and liliana ??
Playing Solemn Simulacrum in the deck would take space away from my removal spells. I'm also not very interested in Bloodgift Demon or Liliana. I apologize if any of that sounded harsh.
I diddnt have time to read the entire thread(great activity for so young a thread) but I figred I'd post my take on Heartless as I've been doing very well in playtesting and it seems different from any of the lists on the first page.
As you can see this list uses Smallpox and Acidic Slime to pursue a policy of mana denial and prevent the enemy from fighting back until they are already very far behind. I'm usually able to ensure that they have less than 4 mana until turn 5 or so (assuming a lack of mana ramp on their part). I still haven't fit the Wurmcoils in which I know I should do but I'm not sure where.
Comment and advice more than welcome.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs." -Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
Some things to point out with the build l00ke00...
Tribute To Hunger is interesting, but the opponant will ALWAYS choose the worst option if they have multiple creatures. I'd say the life gain just isn't worth it, and you should run Doom Blade or GFTT.
How has Moldgraf been testing? It's a neat trick, but since the return is random, there is always the chance that you'll get two Glissas back or something you really don't want at the time.
Chancellor of the Tangle actually has no compatibility with casting Myr Superion. I strongly dislike Superion in my initial assessment of how this deck can look. If it proves to be good, I'll happily eat my words, but inconsistent card is inconsistent.
My bad. Should've looked at the interactions between the cards and saw that. However Chancellor into Heartless first turn is still a pretty powerful play especially if you can drop multiple Superions on the first turn. Even without HS, Priest into Superion turn 3 is still ahead of the curve. Plus I use Palladium Myr as backup. Here's a rough idea of my build so far:
Not Sure about the three open slots yet. I would like something here that allows me to pitch Mid to Late Game Chancellors for Sheoldred recur but am wondering if going that route is even necessary? I like the possibility of getting a jump with CotT accel but is it truly needed?
Like someone said though, it's all about getting sticking a Heartless in play. Without it there should be some sort of ramp for the JIC. You could certainly add Solemn Similacrum for added draw and ramp but in a more controllish Meta CotT could help slip HS under Mana Leaks. Anyway, there's good ideas here, key now is just finding a consensus on what works and identifying the decks weaknesses to tune it. Anyone have a list of what they feel are the core cards?
I'll start with
Heartless Summoning
Inferno Titan
Priest of Urabrask
The main reason to play blue is Grand Architect. I really wanted to play 4 Myr Superion, but needed another way to play him besides Heartless Summoning. I thought about Palladium Myr, but I wanted to play the Myr Superion on turn 3, which I can only do with Grand Architect, since he gets around summuning sickness. I *think* that outweighs him only being able to ramp artifact spells, but I could be wrong.
Spellskite seems really good in the dual role of staving off early damage, and also soaking up removal spells to protect your big creatures.
Phantasmal Image is also a dual role card, either copying your opponents' early creatures to trade, or else copying a bomb in the late game. I don't think the sac when targeted matters much, as most removal would kill it anyways. An added plus is that he can actually kill Geist
Frost Titan: Not sure if he's the right fatty, but since all our titans are going to be smaller, I figured it must be best to play the one that locks down theirs. Plus, at states I figure to mise a few plays in the early rounds from opponents who forget to pay two extra
U/B is also nice, in that it has 8 on color dual lands, so less need to worry about color issues. It may be correct to add white so we can run Sun Titan along with the Phantasmal Images, but I don't want to lose games to my mana base.
Treasure Mage has been doing pretty great things for me, tutoring for Wurmcoil/Steel Hellkite/Blightsteel Colossus while also helping pay for their costs if an architect is around. I also run Metamorph over Phantasmal Image, but that's mostly because I wanted to raise my artifact count due to a couple Tezzerets being in the deck. If I end up cutting Tezzeret, I might switch to the image instead, since it's better as long as I'm not playing it with the architect.
Though this is far from a finished decklist, I like a lot of the interactions. Obviously Gliss + Perilous Myr has been talked to death, but here's a few more:
Heartless summoning works great with Clone Shell, making it cost 3 instead of 5 and making it easier to kill. Prey Upon just gives you more opportunities to kill it, in case your opponent isn't cooperating.
As mentioned, Clone Shell is awesome in the deck. At worst, your getting a Perilous Myr, which might suck (although your opponent will have to act against it quickly, which allows you some 'mental magic' opportunities). Best case scenario, your Shelling a Blightsteel Colossus on turn 3. And even if you don't shell a BSC, shelling a Wurmcoil, Glissa, or Superion is not bad either.
My decklist here will very likely change to accommodate Grand Architect, just in case.
I foresee so many different variations on Heartless. BUG could easily be built around Liliana + Graveyard shenanigans, or it could be built around Tezzeret to cycle through to your wurmcoils, etc. quickly.
The only bad thing about Prey Upon is that the damage is dealt to the creature, so if you attack with something that just took 2 damage, a 1/1 can kill it.
The only bad thing about Prey Upon is that the damage is dealt to the creature, so if you attack with something that just took 2 damage, a 1/1 can kill it.
But yeah, that's a nice trick!
Exactly. But that's the idea... these cards use Prey Upon to the fullest effect (ie wanting to kill your Clone Shell)
Treasure Mage has been doing pretty great things for me, tutoring for Wurmcoil/Steel Hellkite/Blightsteel Colossus while also helping pay for their costs if an architect is around. I also run Metamorph over Phantasmal Image, but that's mostly because I wanted to raise my artifact count due to a couple Tezzerets being in the deck. If I end up cutting Tezzeret, I might switch to the image instead, since it's better as long as I'm not playing it with the architect.
Thanks for the insight. I had missed Tezzeret, he seems really good as a 2-of to keep the gas coming in the late game. I might have to try switching my deck around.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
@AlCon... love the build and the fact you're testing Unburial Rites.
That and Pod decks aren't as aggressive early game. They usually DON'T run creatures like Superion because it kills the chain. This would give the best of both worlds running 2 Pods in the Side against more controling build. It's a way to avoid running into counters.
Chancellor of the Tangle actually has no compatibility with casting Myr Superion. I strongly dislike Superion in my initial assessment of how this deck can look. If it proves to be good, I'll happily eat my words, but inconsistent card is inconsistent.
Level 2 Judge since 12/01/2012
-On Liliana of the Veil
3x Bloodgift Demon
3x Molten-Tail Masticore
2x Entomber Exarch
4x Phyrexian Rager
2x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
3x Solemn Simulacrum
2x Skinrender
2x Dismember
2x Go for the Throat
3x Tribute to Hunger
3x Ghost Quarter
20x Swamp
2x Despise
I really like how it plays mid to late game (without Heartless) but it's the first couple of turns that are difficult to manage. However, the creature package is varied enough to gain advantages either in measurable hand size or more tempo-related, which makes it difficult for linear strategies to overcome. Any and all suggestions are welcome, just please include reasons for suggestions, lol.
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Dull roots with spring rain.
-TS Eliot, The Waste Land
T2 Summoning
T3 Urabrask
T4 Inferno Titan tends to do the trick.
Would you mind sharing your deck list? I'm interested in seeing it.
You have to cast the creature from your hand for Heartless summoning to have an effect. It doesn't help Genesis Wave or GSZ.
4 Inferno Titan
4 Priest of Urabrask
3 Myr Superion
3 Urabrask the Hidden
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Heartless Summoning
Instants (16):
4 Dismember
4 Doom Blade
4 Go for the Throat
4 Incinerate
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Dragonskull Summit
8 Mountain
8 Swamp
Playing Solemn Simulacrum in the deck would take space away from my removal spells. I'm also not very interested in Bloodgift Demon or Liliana. I apologize if any of that sounded harsh.
8x Forest
9x Swamp
4x Woodland Cemetery
Instant (4)
2x Beast Within
2x Tribute to Hunger
Enchantment (4)
4x Heartless Summoning
3x Smallpox
3x Caravan Vigil
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil
Creature (24)
3x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Phyrexian Rager
4x Acidic Slime
4x Perilous Myr
3x Glissa, the Traitor
1x Sheoldred, Whispering One
2x Myr Superion
2x Bloodgift Demon
1x Moldgraf Monstrosity
As you can see this list uses Smallpox and Acidic Slime to pursue a policy of mana denial and prevent the enemy from fighting back until they are already very far behind. I'm usually able to ensure that they have less than 4 mana until turn 5 or so (assuming a lack of mana ramp on their part). I still haven't fit the Wurmcoils in which I know I should do but I'm not sure where.
Comment and advice more than welcome.
I'm a proud member of the Online Campaign for Real English. If you believe in capital letters, correct spelling, and good sentence structure, then copy this into your signature.
"People with needs have trivial purchasing power while people with purchasing power have trivial needs."
-Steve Randy Waldman, Interfludity
Tribute To Hunger is interesting, but the opponant will ALWAYS choose the worst option if they have multiple creatures. I'd say the life gain just isn't worth it, and you should run Doom Blade or GFTT.
How has Moldgraf been testing? It's a neat trick, but since the return is random, there is always the chance that you'll get two Glissas back or something you really don't want at the time.
My bad. Should've looked at the interactions between the cards and saw that. However Chancellor into Heartless first turn is still a pretty powerful play especially if you can drop multiple Superions on the first turn. Even without HS, Priest into Superion turn 3 is still ahead of the curve. Plus I use Palladium Myr as backup. Here's a rough idea of my build so far:
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
3 Sheoldred, Whispering One
3 Inferno Titan
4 Priest of Urabrask
3 Palladium Myr
4 Myr Superion
4 Perilous Myr
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Brimstone Volley
3 (Small Pox, Zombie Infestation, More Burn, Mass Removal???)
Lands:
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
6 Mountain
6 Swamp
4 Buried Ruin
Not Sure about the three open slots yet. I would like something here that allows me to pitch Mid to Late Game Chancellors for Sheoldred recur but am wondering if going that route is even necessary? I like the possibility of getting a jump with CotT accel but is it truly needed?
Like someone said though, it's all about getting sticking a Heartless in play. Without it there should be some sort of ramp for the JIC. You could certainly add Solemn Similacrum for added draw and ramp but in a more controllish Meta CotT could help slip HS under Mana Leaks. Anyway, there's good ideas here, key now is just finding a consensus on what works and identifying the decks weaknesses to tune it. Anyone have a list of what they feel are the core cards?
I'll start with
Heartless Summoning
Inferno Titan
Priest of Urabrask
All auto-includes IMHO.
Discuss.
24 swamp
Creatures
4 spellskite
4 solemn simulacrum
4 bloodgift demon
4 grave titan
1 rune-scared demon
4 liliana of the veil
Enchantments
4 heartless summoning
Spells
4 despise
4 dismember
3 black sun's zenith
spellskite - serves as an early blocker and protects your bombs
solemn simulacrum - provides CA and ramp
3 Spellskite
4 Myr Superion
4 Phantasmal Image
2 Bloodgift Demon
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Frost Titan
2 Sheoldred, Whispering One
24 lands
The main reason to play blue is Grand Architect. I really wanted to play 4 Myr Superion, but needed another way to play him besides Heartless Summoning. I thought about Palladium Myr, but I wanted to play the Myr Superion on turn 3, which I can only do with Grand Architect, since he gets around summuning sickness. I *think* that outweighs him only being able to ramp artifact spells, but I could be wrong.
Spellskite seems really good in the dual role of staving off early damage, and also soaking up removal spells to protect your big creatures.
Phantasmal Image is also a dual role card, either copying your opponents' early creatures to trade, or else copying a bomb in the late game. I don't think the sac when targeted matters much, as most removal would kill it anyways. An added plus is that he can actually kill Geist
Frost Titan: Not sure if he's the right fatty, but since all our titans are going to be smaller, I figured it must be best to play the one that locks down theirs. Plus, at states I figure to mise a few plays in the early rounds from opponents who forget to pay two extra
U/B is also nice, in that it has 8 on color dual lands, so less need to worry about color issues. It may be correct to add white so we can run Sun Titan along with the Phantasmal Images, but I don't want to lose games to my mana base.
Other cards I was considering:
I plan on a BUG build, something like this:
Heartless Summoning x4
Ponder x4
Mana Leak x3
Prey Upon x3
Myr Superion x4
Wurmcoil Engine x3
Bloodgift Demon x3
Glissa, the Traitor x3
Perilous Myr x4
Clone Shell x3
Blightsteel Colossus x2
Sideboard:
Dissipate x3
Acidic Slime x3
Thrun, the last Troll x2
Consecrated Sphinx x2
Skinrender x3
Spellskite x2
Fill in the blanks with the right lands suite.
Though this is far from a finished decklist, I like a lot of the interactions. Obviously Gliss + Perilous Myr has been talked to death, but here's a few more:
Prey Upon + Glissa the Traitor or Wurmcoil Engine
If fight works the way I'm given to understand it does, this serves as pretty decent removal for a lot of things. And it's cheap to boot.
Prey Upon + [card]Clone Shell[card]
Heartless summoning works great with Clone Shell, making it cost 3 instead of 5 and making it easier to kill. Prey Upon just gives you more opportunities to kill it, in case your opponent isn't cooperating.
Clone Shell + Any creature in your deck
As mentioned, Clone Shell is awesome in the deck. At worst, your getting a Perilous Myr, which might suck (although your opponent will have to act against it quickly, which allows you some 'mental magic' opportunities). Best case scenario, your Shelling a Blightsteel Colossus on turn 3. And even if you don't shell a BSC, shelling a Wurmcoil, Glissa, or Superion is not bad either.
My decklist here will very likely change to accommodate Grand Architect, just in case.
I foresee so many different variations on Heartless. BUG could easily be built around Liliana + Graveyard shenanigans, or it could be built around Tezzeret to cycle through to your wurmcoils, etc. quickly.
Either way, this is going to be a FUN deck.
My custom sets:
Caeia Block (Released - Beta)
Generals of Dareth (In Design)
But yeah, that's a nice trick!
Exactly. But that's the idea... these cards use Prey Upon to the fullest effect (ie wanting to kill your Clone Shell)
My custom sets:
Caeia Block (Released - Beta)
Generals of Dareth (In Design)
Thanks for the insight. I had missed Tezzeret, he seems really good as a 2-of to keep the gas coming in the late game. I might have to try switching my deck around.