Dunno if this is the exact thread to post in, But it has Heartless Summoning so I guess it's a variant. I'm making a Jund Pod deck with Heartless Summoning. hope is that both work well together, plus still work well if you only draw one, plus it creates a lot of threats for decks packing hate. This is the list so far:
Okay, so I've been following this thread for a little while, but I haven't been posting. I tested the "aggro" type lists quite a bit, where you drop your Heartless on turn 2 and then try to build the board up as fast as possible. I didn't really like this way of playing the card, it felt too easy to get rolled over. I'd consistently get hit with a DoJ and then be out of steam completely. I decided to go more Mid-Range Control and so far I like it, it just needs some tweaking!
Grand Architect is in for two reasons. One if you draw it and haven't played a Heartless Summoning, it can cast Myr Superion for you. Second it lets Frost Titan come into play as a 6/6 so that it dodges Dismember. Myr Superion is in, because essentially we're looking at a deck that has the ability to play a free Tarmogoyf in standard. I'm playing Titan over Wurmcoil because it immediately effects the board, goes along with the control body of the deck, and is resilient to removal. My main concern with other builds of this deck is that you power out creatures and they roll over to spot removal, and then you can't bounce back. This deck can win when you drop a Frost Titan on turn 4, and then drop a Gideon Jura on turn 5. Usually equals game over, especially when you're also playing free Myr Superions.
The sideboard is a work in progress, and is a little bit goofy right now. But the main point of it is to switch up the gameplan VS aggro. Instead of trying to power out a Frost Titan, I put in Wurmcoil Engines, take out Heartless Summoning all together and replace it with Timely Reinforcements. Without Heartless Summoning, Myr Superion can go in favor of DoJ. It basically changes itself to a UWb control deck VS aggro. Grand Architect stays in, and maybe I'll put a third one in the sideboard, so that we can still cast a Wurmcoil on turn 4.
"I observe the slights and degradations cast by arrogant persons upon
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
Even tho' heartless chucks creatures into dismember range, it doesn't change the fact that with Heartless out, all of our creatures will completly outclass all others that can come down on the same turn, costing the same mana...
Last time I checked a 5/5 Lifelink/Deatouch Creature, that is somewhat immune to wrath, is insanely epic and out performs every other creature an opponent could put down at 4 mana....(Unless you're playing the Mirror O_o)
Being precisely the reason you and I are building around Heartless Summoning.
Dismember is everywhere..it eats vault skirges, Hero's etc, it doesn't stop these creatures being played...So it's annoying when ppl say, oh, but it puts your chaps into dismember range....So what, Hero is always in Dismember range, it's still a legimate threat, an Insane threat if left alone...and it's not even versatile, meaning, you're not really going to be blocking with it....
Big Whoop if a turn 4 sphinx or wurm is in danger of dismember, they stick, and they wreck the opponent...Again, they are a better clase of creature than what the opponent has access to at this point in the game...
It isn't pointless to talk about dismember, because the advantage of plopping a Titan on the board is (amongst other things) Dismember doesn't hit it. If I'm going to essentially build my deck around ramping into cost-effective fatties, I'd at least like to ensure that my creatures are as resilient as possible to removal - especially colorless removal that sees at least 2 slots in every deck in standard. I'm not saying you shouldn't play it on turn 4 and have it come down as a 5/5, what I said was that it's nice to be able to have it land as a 6/6 on turn 4.And also force your opponent to pay an additional 2 mana to target it (hence Frost Titan over anything else).
All being sad, I like the direction you've taken you deck..Unburial Rites is nuts CA, and will usually put you over the top against control decks without it....
Your choice of Frosty is pretty cool, he's hard to deal with that early in the game and can really get to work locking the opponent out...
I do feel you want some amount of Concecrated Sphinx's here in this type of build especially...
Not really seeing the point to Sphinx in my build. I'm running blue for card draw already, and already have 4 dedicated slots to Bloodgift Demon. Not to mention clones on the Sphinx (Phantasmal Image is everywhere) is just annoying. This deck already relies too heavily on landing a Heartless Summoning (what with Leak if you're on the draw, O-ring and Beast Within in the format) that I don't even want to go higher than 6 CMC.
This might just be in my head, but i think you might struggle against other similar styles of play, as your top end threat density isn't quite on par with the likes of Solar Flare...
You may be right. I've only tested to similar strategies a handful of times. It was mostly even the entire game though, but I ended up losing it in the long run. This definitely warrants some thought.
I dunno, I would like to be a little more aggressive, and generally apply insanse amounts of pressure and board pressence...While still maintaining the ability to foil your opponents plans and keep up with the CA you'd face from other control decks...
Haha, yeah man, we would all like that. But I think turning the deck into a mid-range creature deck isn't going to accomplish any of that. How do you foil your opponents plans when all you're doing is dropping big dummies every turn? I think at least the creature based decks (correct if they're already doing this) should be running Swords and finding things that can carry them.
You'll also want to kp up with aggro decks....Extra aggression also works here, as like I said, your creatures will outclass theirs on each respective turn...
I'm dropping the same creatures on the same turns as any other Heartless deck. But, aggro is going to be a problem for any of us because Tempered Steel can just drop creatures infinitely faster and make them huge. This is why my sideboard is built around this weak spot.
Solemn Sim should be here...Works great with both Heartless and Architect, fixes your mana, which being in 3 colours is invaluable...Chumps and draws, wonderful value...It'll also helps you get there should you engines prove somewhat elusive...
I absolutely agree, I'd like to find a slot for him. But at the same time, he costs 4 mana and if there isn't already a Heartless on board then he isn't cost-efficient.
Ratchet Bomb in the SB, Tokens decks will be popular for a bit...They have lots of support and have just done very will in Indy at the SCG open..Cast it for free with Architect too ^^
I'm not sure exactly what token deck you mean, but Gideon Jura is the champ when it comes to this in testing so far. Force them all to swing at him, and then get through with Wurmcoil Engine.
I absolutely appreciate your response to my list. I'm trying to find something more consistent, too. I just want my list to be able to stand up even if Heartless isn't out. Hence the Architect to support Superion (and Wurmcoil g2).
"I observe the slights and degradations cast by arrogant persons upon
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
So I have been playing BG Heartless Summoning and I think its the color variant that excels in an artifact or enchantment based meta (Tempered Steel, Birthing Pod, Mirror Match, Tezz Control) But I think BR Summoning may be a tad stronger. What does everyone think? How has the two color variants tested? How is UB Summoning?
So I have been playing BG Heartless Summoning and I think its the color variant that excels in an artifact or enchantment based meta (Tempered Steel, Birthing Pod, Mirror Match, Tezz Control) But I think BR Summoning may be a tad stronger. What does everyone think? How has the two color variants tested? How is UB Summoning?
I like red best because Urabrask Priest becomes a red Dark Ritual. It also has access to Urabrask to give your beatsticks haste.
So I have been playing BG Heartless Summoning and I think its the color variant that excels in an artifact or enchantment based meta (Tempered Steel, Birthing Pod, Mirror Match, Tezz Control) But I think BR Summoning may be a tad stronger. What does everyone think? How has the two color variants tested? How is UB Summoning?
Im really debating on changing my Birthing Pod List from Bant to Jund. Why do I post this in the Heartless Summoning thread? Because heartless would go in for Pod on Game 2 when my opponent sides in all that Pod hate.
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Quote from ebcubs03 »
so if i am that player do i get to sleep with his girlfriend ?
Hey there, I posted this deck earlier in the thread but I kinda' went away from it for a few days. Here is my new deck-list and I'd love for you to critique it. This deck was made using a control-shell rather than the standard ramp deck that many Heartless Summoning decks are building around right now. I feel that it would be better to control your opponent in games that you don't have immediate access to Heartless Summoning. Anyway, without further adieu, here is my deck-list:
I think a lot of people are making the mistake of building their entire deck around having a Heartless Summoning on board, when at the same time you're not running any cards to dig for it/tutor it up, or anything to protect it on top of that.
"I observe the slights and degradations cast by arrogant persons upon
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
I just wanted for it to be known that I edited my deck slightly by adding in Phyrexian Rager and changing my mana base around a bit. I must say that commentary on my spell selection, the quantity of said spells I'm using, and my mana base would be greatly appreciated:
It depends on whether you want your heartless summoning deck to be Valakut or RUG, using last season analogies. Valakut, in that we just fight through the hate, or RUG, in that you build a mana advantage and then play the control game.
Yeah, I know how you feel, I get the same indication whenever I see an article about Heartless..
The decks they build do not do enough without them....
It's tricky to find the correct balance or direction to take the deck...
I think Solar Flare has such a strangle hold on anything else that wants to play control, that unless you're doing something insanely unfair, which granted is capable or indeed conceivable with Heartless, you're not really going to stand a chance going into the late game..
Now the first Innistrad Tourney is over, Solar Flare now as a rough idea on the meta and can now tune their decks accordingly...
Which is why I firmly believe we need to be aggressive with Heartless and overwhelm in the early game with an insane amount of pressure from undercosted beat sticks...I'm not sure the CA is available to us to compete late with it...You'll need something that rivals Unburial Rites bringing back stupid good threats...
Quicksilver amulet comes to mind.....It does offer a new dimension...Big threats that we can cast early with Hearltess can be flashed in as well, getting round counter magic, providing combat tricks etc...
I certainly agree with you on a lot of points, but I don't think that Solar Flare is so strong that no one else should be able to play control in the same format. We can give ourselves access to a lot of the same cards that Solar Flare implements, alongside with Heartless to drop our similar big threats a little earlier. I don't see any reason not to play Unburial Rites as at least a 2-of in Heartless Summoning builds. I'm sticking to BUW right now, using blue to dig (and ditch to the graveyard for recursion) and white to maintain board control. We're looking at an enchantment that is cheap, allows for an insane turn 2 play (Heartless Summoning -> Myr Superion...) that puts your opponent immediately on the clock, and can have us curve off at 4. With such a lot curve *possible* when you land it, the deck can also allow us to dig/counterspell/burn/whatever you want to do on the side. I think this deck works best as mid-range, and I think too many people are making the mistake of trying to fit 4x 5 CMC, 4x 6 CMC, 4x 4 CMC, etc. and then hoping to land that summoning every single time.
I just wanted for it to be known that I edited my deck slightly by adding in Phyrexian Rager and changing my mana base around a bit. I must say that commentary on my spell selection, the quantity of said spells I'm using, and my mana base would be greatly appreciated:
I don't mean to make an example of you, but this is exactly what I mean. This list doesn't make any sense without a Heartless Summoning on board. One enchantment in our deck shouldn't change the essential rules to building a deck by ignoring the curve completely. itz9001, my suggestion would be to drop your removal to a smaller package, maybe 2x Dismember and 2x Go For The Throat. I like Urabrask because it opens up a space to swing in to your opponent. If you want to focus on red, I'd suggest adding 3x Priest of Urabrask, which will then allow you to have two engines (Priest and Heartless Summoning) to fit Myr Superion in. Drop Inferno Titan to 3-of, there isn't any reason to try to fit 4 Titans in. With your remaining spaces open, if you don't want to add blue (which I would suggest) use black to fit some discard spells or some form of disruption in there.
"I observe the slights and degradations cast by arrogant persons upon
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
I honestly think Architecht is the way to go. You are able to cast plenty of threats quickly, and using your creatures for mana is absolutely wonderful since you have your mana open for anything else you could need. I am not sold on Chapin's build, but with some tweaking I think it's the way to run Heartless.
I honestly think Architecht is the way to go. You are able to cast plenty of threats quickly, and using your creatures for mana is absolutely wonderful since you have your mana open for anything else you could need. I am not sold on Chapin's build, but with some tweaking I think it's the way to run Heartless.
Still of the same opinion, although I'm now just looking at is as an Architect deck that happens to feature Heartless Summoning. The "Heartless Summoning decks" tend to be too narrow, and are just mediocre if they don't draw the summoning.
Although I said the same thing about Birthing Pod in the previous standard, and was proven wrong (eventually).
For heartless I like the g/b idea for using creatures as spells, I think that would be a ton of fun. For competitive though I really think Grixis is the way to go. Frost Titan, Inferno Titan, Bloodgift Demon. I don't think Grave Titan is as good in this deck, but Wurmcoil is great. To smooth things out I would recommend Palladium Myr since he can double colorless easily enough.
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For a 3 color deck, the manabase is surprisingly consistent, and I feel like Grixis colors give the best capability to range from aggro to control easily. The deck plays like a UB control deck for the turns until you find HS, as well as being able to beat down with a T3 Myr Superion off of Priest. If you get to the late game, Bloodgift Demon is hard to match for card advantage and Inferno Titan just wins the game.
The only slots I wasn't sure what to do with are the 6 slots I spent on black removal. I feel at least 3 of those slots are correct, but I wasn't sure if I should fill the others with card draw, discard, burn, or any of the other utilities in my colors.
I've been running a modified version of Ashton Dragon's list, which you can look at here. (Main changes were cutting hellkite/blightsteel and adding Bloodgift Demons; also found room for Consecrated Sphinxes and adapted the board to my local meta.)
The ability to consistently drop Wurmcoil Engine on turn 4 (and several times on turn 3) won me almost all of my games. Dropping Superions on turn 2 until I could stick a bigger threat was also a game-changer.
I only ran into one problem, and that was control. Was thinking about testing out Frost Titans (the main problem I ran into was Snapcaster and Dismember just stalling for ages.) Has anyone had great success with them? Or does anyone have other advice for facing control? Obviously Mindslaver is spectacular, especially with the ability to recur it, but besides that.
How are people feeling about Solemn? I thought he'd be amazing, but most of the time he was just okay. If I had Summoning or Architect, he was unnecessary. If I didn't have either, he sort of helped me play the control game, but with the redundancy of Summoning, Architect, and Ponder, I didn't really have that problem more than once. He just felt like filler, and I'm thinking about cutting him for Phyrexian Rager.
I also think we need a certain small amount of interactivity. 6-8 cards feels about right (which in my colors means Mana Leaks and Doom Blade/GFtT/Dismember) with more options in the board. I'm also looking around for answers to noncreature permanents - I had a White Weenie deck drop Nevermore naming Wurmcoil, which cut me down to trying to win with my 2 sphinxes/2 bloodgifts. Ratchet Bomb out of the side is okay (and hilarious if you have problems with the humans deck - flipped cards have CMC 0) but it left quite a bit to be desired.
The green splash is looking better and better - acidic slimes, emissaries, and some solid board options. I'll have to give it a shot at my next FNM.
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Counter spells stop everything. It's the condom Trojan dreams of making. But like condoms, if you don't have one, you still keep on playing and take the risk. Most of us wouldn't be here if this wasn't a fact.
The green splash is looking better and better - acidic slimes, emissaries, and some solid board options. I'll have to give it a shot at my next FNM.
There is some validity in turning to green as a splash. Against control, you could side in Thrunn and of course Beast Within answers anything. As for everyone saying Architect is the way to go, I like a lot of what is happening with Architect versus the other mediocre creature slapping builds. I'd like to test with some of that as well and see how it goes.
"I observe the slights and degradations cast by arrogant persons upon
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
I certainly agree with you on a lot of points, but I don't think that Solar Flare is so strong that no one else should be able to play control in the same format. We can give ourselves access to a lot of the same cards that Solar Flare implements, alongside with Heartless to drop our similar big threats a little earlier. I don't see any reason not to play Unburial Rites as at least a 2-of in Heartless Summoning builds. I'm sticking to BUW right now, using blue to dig (and ditch to the graveyard for recursion) and white to maintain board control. We're looking at an enchantment that is cheap, allows for an insane turn 2 play (Heartless Summoning -> Myr Superion...) that puts your opponent immediately on the clock, and can have us curve off at 4. With such a lot curve *possible* when you land it, the deck can also allow us to dig/counterspell/burn/whatever you want to do on the side. I think this deck works best as mid-range, and I think too many people are making the mistake of trying to fit 4x 5 CMC, 4x 6 CMC, 4x 4 CMC, etc. and then hoping to land that summoning every single time.
I don't mean to make an example of you, but this is exactly what I mean. This list doesn't make any sense without a Heartless Summoning on board. One enchantment in our deck shouldn't change the essential rules to building a deck by ignoring the curve completely. itz9001, my suggestion would be to drop your removal to a smaller package, maybe 2x Dismember and 2x Go For The Throat. I like Urabrask because it opens up a space to swing in to your opponent. If you want to focus on red, I'd suggest adding 3x Priest of Urabrask, which will then allow you to have two engines (Priest and Heartless Summoning) to fit Myr Superion in. Drop Inferno Titan to 3-of, there isn't any reason to try to fit 4 Titans in. With your remaining spaces open, if you don't want to add blue (which I would suggest) use black to fit some discard spells or some form of disruption in there.
Yeah, I fell into this trap as well, trying to focus in on building the deck around Heartless Summoning. I think you have to regard Heartless along the lines of a Dark Ritual/Grim Monolith/Mana Vault, something that speeds your game up. But the deck shouldn't be reliant on it. Whatever sort of deck it fits into should have enough power on it's own but explodes IF you get HS into play.
That said, the Black/Red version definitely has some power. Chancellor of the Tangle, I've found, is not necessary as your using accel to power out more accel and would be better suited as something else. Palladium Myr is strong though and Priest of Urabrask is ok. I don't see playsets of each being needed though, maybe some split between the two.
This list does great against aggro with the whole Pharaoh and Smallpox combo. And against control, the card draw and threat density has been playing real well. The ability to completely shut down an opponent who keeps a 2 or 3 land hand is very powerful. I do need to test this against a Solar Flare pilot who is actually competent though. Hopefully I get paired against one on Friday.
Still working on a sideboard, but I think some amount of Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction, and Negate will be in there. Also, I'm feeling that Peace Strider should be in as well. Probably some number of Dismember and Ratchet Bomb too.
I've also started working on a Jund version utilizing Ancient Grudge as well. But I really don't even need it against Tempered Steel, but maybe against Swords.dec.
I don't mean to make an example of you, but this is exactly what I mean. This list doesn't make any sense without a Heartless Summoning on board. One enchantment in our deck shouldn't change the essential rules to building a deck by ignoring the curve completely. itz9001, my suggestion would be to drop your removal to a smaller package, maybe 2x Dismember and 2x Go For The Throat. I like Urabrask because it opens up a space to swing in to your opponent. If you want to focus on red, I'd suggest adding 3x Priest of Urabrask, which will then allow you to have two engines (Priest and Heartless Summoning) to fit Myr Superion in. Drop Inferno Titan to 3-of, there isn't any reason to try to fit 4 Titans in. With your remaining spaces open, if you don't want to add blue (which I would suggest) use black to fit some discard spells or some form of disruption in there.
Well, I think we're both coming from two different positions when looking at how to build this deck. My hypothesis on how to play this deck well even without a Heartless Summoning on the field is by controlling the field. It should be quite obvious by most of the mana curves of this deck archetype that this deck runs slow. So, in order to compensate for this fault I feel that it's correct to put in the deck a lot of ways to control the opponent's field to keep both players on a equal playing field more or less. This deck could probably run perfectly fine on its own without Heartless Summoning as a sort of control deck. However, with Heartless Summoning out one is able to threaten the opponent much faster. Really, I feel that Heartless Summoning is merely an augment to the control aspect of the deck.
And, because of this, I don't feel that it's in my best interest to scale back the control aspects of this deck. I also feel that Inferno Titan being a four-of is perfectly fine because I personally feel that Inferno is a better card than Wurmcoil in this archetype. I do, however, like the suggestion of adding some discard in the deck. I have added in three Despise to my deck. Here's how my deck is looking now:
Seeing people talk Chancellor of the Tangle just made me see turn 1 chancellor in hand drop a swamp or b/r or b/u dual and t1 heartless into superion(s) on turn 1.... EWW.
On another note, im going to be building some sort of Heartless deck, most likely b/r or b/g, but the Grixis versions look to be more devastating, with both inferno and frost titans.
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First tournament top 8 11/4/12 at the SCG IQ in Santa Cruz!
Seeing people talk Chancellor of the Tangle just made me see turn 1 chancellor in hand drop a swamp or b/r or b/u dual and t1 heartless into superion(s) on turn 1.... EWW.
On another note, im going to be building some sort of Heartless deck, most likely b/r or b/g, but the Grixis versions look to be more devastating, with both inferno and frost titans.
Chancellor doesn't add much to the deck. In 100 goldfishes, Chancellor into Heartless Summoning occurred less than 20 times in testing.
I played a few games against my friend's Bant Pod deck. The deck did pretty well, but I adjusted it and went up to 25 lands, going to 3 Think Twice.
It plays a pretty good game in that it can attack at all angles, allowing you to play cheap bombs to just steal the game, as well as reanimate them even after they have died. Still unsure if the Metamorphs belong in the main, but I am unsure what they should be otherwise.
Skinrender has done a lot of work, making things smaller, killing Phantasmal Images, etc. I would recommend using him. Spellskites are good, and so are the Solemns. I never got my Frost Titan out, so I'm unsure if he's that great; he might be better as another bomb, but I just don't know what right now.
Counters and removal are alright. I before had 2 Oblivion Rings in the deck, but found they were pretty unspectacular, and against Pod, they can Slime/Sylvok Replica it and it just sucks, so I tried to go with more permanent removal.
The counters were alright. They obviously lose their touch later on, but I feel you kinda of need the Leeks since they are kind of a catch-all for the early game.
Sideboard is still a work in progress, but has tools for almost every match-up.
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In the B/R version she can come down on turn 3 with a Priest of Urabrask.
Turn 2 Heartless Summoning
Turn 3 Tap 2 black, 1 red play Priest into Sheoldred.
And pray they don't Dismember or O-Ring...
Yes youre right that about Primordial Hydra so you can technically cast him for the GG and he'll have 2 counters.
4x Bloodgift Demon
3 Myr Superion
3x Frost Titan
2x Grand Architect
Enchantment
4x Heartless Summoning
Instant
4x Think Twice
4x Forbidden Alchemy
4x Mana Leak
2x Dismember
2x Go For The Throat
3x Gideon Jura
Sorcery
2x Unburial Rites
Land
4x Drowned Catacomb
5x Island
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Seachrome Coast
6x Swamp
3x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Doom Blade
4x Day of Judgment
4x Timely Reinforcements
Grand Architect is in for two reasons. One if you draw it and haven't played a Heartless Summoning, it can cast Myr Superion for you. Second it lets Frost Titan come into play as a 6/6 so that it dodges Dismember. Myr Superion is in, because essentially we're looking at a deck that has the ability to play a free Tarmogoyf in standard. I'm playing Titan over Wurmcoil because it immediately effects the board, goes along with the control body of the deck, and is resilient to removal. My main concern with other builds of this deck is that you power out creatures and they roll over to spot removal, and then you can't bounce back. This deck can win when you drop a Frost Titan on turn 4, and then drop a Gideon Jura on turn 5. Usually equals game over, especially when you're also playing free Myr Superions.
The sideboard is a work in progress, and is a little bit goofy right now. But the main point of it is to switch up the gameplan VS aggro. Instead of trying to power out a Frost Titan, I put in Wurmcoil Engines, take out Heartless Summoning all together and replace it with Timely Reinforcements. Without Heartless Summoning, Myr Superion can go in favor of DoJ. It basically changes itself to a UWb control deck VS aggro. Grand Architect stays in, and maybe I'll put a third one in the sideboard, so that we can still cast a Wurmcoil on turn 4.
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
BR B/r Vampires (Standard)
GWU Angus Mackenzie(EDH)
UW Venser Control (Legacy)
I absolutely appreciate your response to my list. I'm trying to find something more consistent, too. I just want my list to be able to stand up even if Heartless isn't out. Hence the Architect to support Superion (and Wurmcoil g2).
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
BR B/r Vampires (Standard)
GWU Angus Mackenzie(EDH)
UW Venser Control (Legacy)
BUR Thraximundar
RBGMy Trades!UWX
I like red best because Urabrask Priest becomes a red Dark Ritual. It also has access to Urabrask to give your beatsticks haste.
Im really debating on changing my Birthing Pod List from Bant to Jund. Why do I post this in the Heartless Summoning thread? Because heartless would go in for Pod on Game 2 when my opponent sides in all that Pod hate.
About Mindslaver rulings:
4 Inferno Titan
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Bloodgift Demon
3 Urabrask the Hidden
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Heartless Summoning
Instants (16):
4 Dismember
4 Doom Blade
4 Go for the Throat
4 Incinerate
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Dragonskull Summit
7 Mountain
9 Swamp
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
BR B/r Vampires (Standard)
GWU Angus Mackenzie(EDH)
UW Venser Control (Legacy)
4 Inferno Titan
4 Phyrexian Rager
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Bloodgift Demon
3 Urabrask the Hidden
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Heartless Summoning
Instants (16):
4 Dismember
4 Doom Blade
4 Go for the Throat
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Dragonskull Summit
5 Mountain
11 Swamp
I certainly agree with you on a lot of points, but I don't think that Solar Flare is so strong that no one else should be able to play control in the same format. We can give ourselves access to a lot of the same cards that Solar Flare implements, alongside with Heartless to drop our similar big threats a little earlier. I don't see any reason not to play Unburial Rites as at least a 2-of in Heartless Summoning builds. I'm sticking to BUW right now, using blue to dig (and ditch to the graveyard for recursion) and white to maintain board control. We're looking at an enchantment that is cheap, allows for an insane turn 2 play (Heartless Summoning -> Myr Superion...) that puts your opponent immediately on the clock, and can have us curve off at 4. With such a lot curve *possible* when you land it, the deck can also allow us to dig/counterspell/burn/whatever you want to do on the side. I think this deck works best as mid-range, and I think too many people are making the mistake of trying to fit 4x 5 CMC, 4x 6 CMC, 4x 4 CMC, etc. and then hoping to land that summoning every single time.
I don't mean to make an example of you, but this is exactly what I mean. This list doesn't make any sense without a Heartless Summoning on board. One enchantment in our deck shouldn't change the essential rules to building a deck by ignoring the curve completely. itz9001, my suggestion would be to drop your removal to a smaller package, maybe 2x Dismember and 2x Go For The Throat. I like Urabrask because it opens up a space to swing in to your opponent. If you want to focus on red, I'd suggest adding 3x Priest of Urabrask, which will then allow you to have two engines (Priest and Heartless Summoning) to fit Myr Superion in. Drop Inferno Titan to 3-of, there isn't any reason to try to fit 4 Titans in. With your remaining spaces open, if you don't want to add blue (which I would suggest) use black to fit some discard spells or some form of disruption in there.
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
BR B/r Vampires (Standard)
GWU Angus Mackenzie(EDH)
UW Venser Control (Legacy)
Still of the same opinion, although I'm now just looking at is as an Architect deck that happens to feature Heartless Summoning. The "Heartless Summoning decks" tend to be too narrow, and are just mediocre if they don't draw the summoning.
Although I said the same thing about Birthing Pod in the previous standard, and was proven wrong (eventually).
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
4 Ponder
4 Mana Leak
3 Dismember
3 Doom Blade
4 Phyrexian Rager
4 Priest of Urabrask
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Myr Superion
3 Inferno Titan
2 Bloodgift Demon
3 Island
2 Mountain
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Drowned Catacomb
For a 3 color deck, the manabase is surprisingly consistent, and I feel like Grixis colors give the best capability to range from aggro to control easily. The deck plays like a UB control deck for the turns until you find HS, as well as being able to beat down with a T3 Myr Superion off of Priest. If you get to the late game, Bloodgift Demon is hard to match for card advantage and Inferno Titan just wins the game.
The only slots I wasn't sure what to do with are the 6 slots I spent on black removal. I feel at least 3 of those slots are correct, but I wasn't sure if I should fill the others with card draw, discard, burn, or any of the other utilities in my colors.
The ability to consistently drop Wurmcoil Engine on turn 4 (and several times on turn 3) won me almost all of my games. Dropping Superions on turn 2 until I could stick a bigger threat was also a game-changer.
I only ran into one problem, and that was control. Was thinking about testing out Frost Titans (the main problem I ran into was Snapcaster and Dismember just stalling for ages.) Has anyone had great success with them? Or does anyone have other advice for facing control? Obviously Mindslaver is spectacular, especially with the ability to recur it, but besides that.
How are people feeling about Solemn? I thought he'd be amazing, but most of the time he was just okay. If I had Summoning or Architect, he was unnecessary. If I didn't have either, he sort of helped me play the control game, but with the redundancy of Summoning, Architect, and Ponder, I didn't really have that problem more than once. He just felt like filler, and I'm thinking about cutting him for Phyrexian Rager.
I also think we need a certain small amount of interactivity. 6-8 cards feels about right (which in my colors means Mana Leaks and Doom Blade/GFtT/Dismember) with more options in the board. I'm also looking around for answers to noncreature permanents - I had a White Weenie deck drop Nevermore naming Wurmcoil, which cut me down to trying to win with my 2 sphinxes/2 bloodgifts. Ratchet Bomb out of the side is okay (and hilarious if you have problems with the humans deck - flipped cards have CMC 0) but it left quite a bit to be desired.
The green splash is looking better and better - acidic slimes, emissaries, and some solid board options. I'll have to give it a shot at my next FNM.
My Trade Thread!
There is some validity in turning to green as a splash. Against control, you could side in Thrunn and of course Beast Within answers anything. As for everyone saying Architect is the way to go, I like a lot of what is happening with Architect versus the other mediocre creature slapping builds. I'd like to test with some of that as well and see how it goes.
laborers, the poor, and upon negroes, and the like;
All these--all the meanness and agony without end I sitting look out upon,
See, hear, and am silent."
BR B/r Vampires (Standard)
GWU Angus Mackenzie(EDH)
UW Venser Control (Legacy)
Yeah, I fell into this trap as well, trying to focus in on building the deck around Heartless Summoning. I think you have to regard Heartless along the lines of a Dark Ritual/Grim Monolith/Mana Vault, something that speeds your game up. But the deck shouldn't be reliant on it. Whatever sort of deck it fits into should have enough power on it's own but explodes IF you get HS into play.
That said, the Black/Red version definitely has some power. Chancellor of the Tangle, I've found, is not necessary as your using accel to power out more accel and would be better suited as something else. Palladium Myr is strong though and Priest of Urabrask is ok. I don't see playsets of each being needed though, maybe some split between the two.
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
8x Swamp
8x Island
Enchantments: 4
4x Heartless Summoning
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Vengeful Pharaoh
2x Bloodgift Demon
2x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Frost Titan
3x Ponder
4x Think Twice
4x Mana Leak
4x Smallpox
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
This list does great against aggro with the whole Pharaoh and Smallpox combo. And against control, the card draw and threat density has been playing real well. The ability to completely shut down an opponent who keeps a 2 or 3 land hand is very powerful. I do need to test this against a Solar Flare pilot who is actually competent though. Hopefully I get paired against one on Friday.
Still working on a sideboard, but I think some amount of Spellbomb, Surgical Extraction, and Negate will be in there. Also, I'm feeling that Peace Strider should be in as well. Probably some number of Dismember and Ratchet Bomb too.
I've also started working on a Jund version utilizing Ancient Grudge as well. But I really don't even need it against Tempered Steel, but maybe against Swords.dec.
Well, I think we're both coming from two different positions when looking at how to build this deck. My hypothesis on how to play this deck well even without a Heartless Summoning on the field is by controlling the field. It should be quite obvious by most of the mana curves of this deck archetype that this deck runs slow. So, in order to compensate for this fault I feel that it's correct to put in the deck a lot of ways to control the opponent's field to keep both players on a equal playing field more or less. This deck could probably run perfectly fine on its own without Heartless Summoning as a sort of control deck. However, with Heartless Summoning out one is able to threaten the opponent much faster. Really, I feel that Heartless Summoning is merely an augment to the control aspect of the deck.
And, because of this, I don't feel that it's in my best interest to scale back the control aspects of this deck. I also feel that Inferno Titan being a four-of is perfectly fine because I personally feel that Inferno is a better card than Wurmcoil in this archetype. I do, however, like the suggestion of adding some discard in the deck. I have added in three Despise to my deck. Here's how my deck is looking now:
4 Inferno Titan
4 Phyrexian Rager
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Bloodgift Demon
3 Urabrask the Hidden
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Heartless Summoning
Instants (9):
3 Dismember
3 Doom Blade
3 Go for the Throat
Sorceries (3):
3 Despise
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Dragonskull Summit
5 Mountain
11 Swamp
On another note, im going to be building some sort of Heartless deck, most likely b/r or b/g, but the Grixis versions look to be more devastating, with both inferno and frost titans.
My decks
Top 4 (4th) SCG IQ 11/4/12
Chancellor doesn't add much to the deck. In 100 goldfishes, Chancellor into Heartless Summoning occurred less than 20 times in testing.
2 Spellskite
2 Skinrender
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Frost Titan
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
Noncreatures: 19
1 Day of Judgment
2 Unburial Rites
3 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
2 Doom Blade
3 Go for the Throat
4 Heartless Summoning
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
3 Islands
3 Swamp
2 Entomber Exarch
3 Peace Strider
2 Revoke Existence
2 Day of Judgment
2 Negate
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ratchet Bomb
I played a few games against my friend's Bant Pod deck. The deck did pretty well, but I adjusted it and went up to 25 lands, going to 3 Think Twice.
It plays a pretty good game in that it can attack at all angles, allowing you to play cheap bombs to just steal the game, as well as reanimate them even after they have died. Still unsure if the Metamorphs belong in the main, but I am unsure what they should be otherwise.
Skinrender has done a lot of work, making things smaller, killing Phantasmal Images, etc. I would recommend using him. Spellskites are good, and so are the Solemns. I never got my Frost Titan out, so I'm unsure if he's that great; he might be better as another bomb, but I just don't know what right now.
Counters and removal are alright. I before had 2 Oblivion Rings in the deck, but found they were pretty unspectacular, and against Pod, they can Slime/Sylvok Replica it and it just sucks, so I tried to go with more permanent removal.
The counters were alright. They obviously lose their touch later on, but I feel you kinda of need the Leeks since they are kind of a catch-all for the early game.
Sideboard is still a work in progress, but has tools for almost every match-up.