If you would always be casting it to search for Karn, why not just run more Karns? That would save you a turn
The point of Increasing Ambition is to search for answers, not just for Karn. If you're running it to only search for Karn, you're doing it wrong.
@ bjorn222 - I think it's clear that there are many different ways to build MBC. Some are having success focusing on creatures like Nighthawk, Wurmcoil, Griselbrand, etc., some are having success with a more controlling, less creatures build, and others are managing to win with a heavy discard style deck. A primer would have to include all of the above, as there is no "right way" based on the success stories people have posted.
The good thing about this is it shows there are some strong cards for MBC right now, and if FNM is your end game, you can probably do well with whatever style of build as long as you practice and adjust to your meta.
For pro play, we have yet to see what MBC will finally settle into. Perhaps then a primer will emerge. I believe early on it will be the creature focus (such as decks with Nighthawks and others), and will turn into a more controlling build as the meta develops.
Below is my current deck list for MBC with all of my reasoning for card selections. It has gone through some small amount of testing, and plenty of fishbowl. I will set up a gauntlet for it soon, but I do know it performs very well against Delver.
Vampire Nighthawk is a great control card that looks like an great aggro card. He helps you stabilize very early on, he has evasion, and he can be a removal spell of his own when left on defense.
Bloodline Keeper is the finisher of choice. This guy is insane. In my experience, he either eats removal immediately or kills your opponent. Playing one after another is brutal, and he has synergy with Vampire Nighthawk. He is a card advantage machine, and is always at least a 1-1, usually much more. (Originally I had Vampire Nocturnus here, but I feel he is better suited to an aggro deck, so he was cut completely. He fared poorly in testing.)
Bloodgift Demon is better than I originally thought for this deck. He offers an evasive 4-turn clock and grants you a Phyrexian Arena for as long as he sticks around. I am considering replacing one with a single maindeck Curse of Death's Hold, but I will test more before making a decision.
Duress and Tragic Slip are my 1 drops. Both are fantastic against the meta at the moment, where duress is never dead against delver and Slip is good against almost every deck out there. In games where I am playing second, I will normally board out 1 duress for 1 tragic Slip, for more reactive early disruption.
Sign in Blood is a 4 of, period. Even against aggro. If you run out of removal, what are you going to do with your extra 2-4 life? Maybe have one more frustrating draw step, more times than not.
Perhaps the most interesting choice in my list is Staff of Nin. This card is the nuts. The pinging is relevant as removal (or a sloooow clock). It is especially good when I have Curse of Death's Hold out already. But the draw is really what we need most. We have answers to just about everything, but much of the time we can't find the right ones at the right times. This card helps a lot. Seriously, test it. I would rather cast this than Grave Titan almost all of the time.
Mutilate is better than damnation in mono-black, and great against the field, so it is a 4-of. Always happy to see one in the opening hand. Sorin's Vengeance can win games out of nowhere, and is this decks Corrupt variant. Markov is here to finish the job against aggro, and is a persistent threat to control. Liliana is Liliana. I have found you don't need to have GY cards to get ahead with her. Once you lock the board up, you can turn every card in your hand into a 0-mana discard spell. Karn is good against permanents. And the sideboard is and will be incomplete until the cards are legal and The format shifts.
I omitted Obliterator and Lashwrithe for an important reason: they are not control cards. They are fantastic Mono-Black aggro cards, but I don't think they are what we are looking for here.
This deck can be fast and brutal, with discard and removal clearing the way for a vampire army, or is can be slow and grindy that crushes opponents under raw card advantage. I would love some feedback, and I wanted to share what I thought was the direction we should all be moving.
Now for some constructive critisicm(spelled wrong or something whatever)
Staff of Nin Works wonders!
Casting it with board presence you can get those x/1's and if you dont have any creatures on the board, neither should they. And my god does 2 cards a turn Rock or what.
This list is headed in the right direction but I feel it needs more control.
Garroth, any suggestions?
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I dont claim to know all about mbc or how to win. But i have been watching this thread for many weeks. It cycles from random deck lists that arent responded, to arguements over bad discard like ravenous rats or black cat or artifacts which never really leads to any changes as the following wave of decks that dont recieve answers arent any different.Meaningless discussion. This would be much different if we had a primer which would provide a solid base and direction.
If you think the discussion is meaningless then that's your loss. Last I checked, the whole purpose of a forum is to exchange ideas and give and receive input. There is a lot of collective wisdom here if you are willing to listen.
The fact is- there are so many good cards to choose from for a MBC list right now, that there is NOT a consistent base that should be universal for all builds. There are several variants: ramp (mana baubles, simulacrum, fatties/vengeance), midrange disruption (rats/nighthawks/lashwrithes/bloodgifts), and more aggro oriented builds with obliterator and/or messenger. All of which are worth discussing in this thread, and are considerably different from one another.
Also- not to beat a dead horse, but why is ravenous rats "bad discard"? I see people saying that here and there, stating their opinions as though they were facts. Guess you missed the post earlier today where the guy won 5 straight rounds in a FNM against tier 1 decks with 4x "bad discard" mainboard. I've been playing online with them a ton too. They work well in so many situations. But its not my loss if anyone wants to write them off without even testing them. They are good in this deck. Start calling it "good discard".
My opinion on the rats: they're a decent chump blocker and at worst, they're a 1 for 1. Even if your opponent only discards a land, that's still card advantage because you get a creature on the board. A rat can prevent 3 damage from a Champion on turn 2 which can be a game changer.
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MBC is a control deck that likes to grind card advantage and creatures (Into fresh meat.). You also don't play any of those fancy blue lands. Just pure, evil incarnate.
How do I build it?
There are a few different routes one could theoretically go to build a MBC deck, as there are currently an abundance of choices in standard. It depends on your metagame and your particular playstyle
Why should I play it?
Control without islands is fun. You can also wreck traditional control decks. In fact, you wreck anything if your maindeck and sideboard are put together correctly. A maindeck full of removal wrecks aggro, and can transform into a control destroyer by siding in a lot of discard spells.
Why should I listen to FuxAlt? He's like, never won anything?!
No good answer to this one. Play swamps
Below is my current deck list for MBC with all of my reasoning for card selections. It has gone through some small amount of testing, and plenty of fishbowl. I will set up a gauntlet for it soon, but I do know it performs very well against Delver.
Vampire Nighthawk is a great control card that looks like an great aggro card. He helps you stabilize very early on, he has evasion, and he can be a removal spell of his own when left on defense.
Bloodline Keeper is the finisher of choice. This guy is insane. In my experience, he either eats removal immediately or kills your opponent. Playing one after another is brutal, and he has synergy with Vampire Nighthawk. He is a card advantage machine, and is always at least a 1-1, usually much more. (Originally I had Vampire Nocturnus here, but I feel he is better suited to an aggro deck, so he was cut completely. He fared poorly in testing.)
Bloodgift Demon is better than I originally thought for this deck. He offers an evasive 4-turn clock and grants you a Phyrexian Arena for as long as he sticks around. I am considering replacing one with a single maindeck Curse of Death's Hold, but I will test more before making a decision.
Duress and Tragic Slip are my 1 drops. Both are fantastic against the meta at the moment, where duress is never dead against delver and Slip is good against almost every deck out there. In games where I am playing second, I will normally board out 1 duress for 1 tragic Slip, for more reactive early disruption.
Sign in Blood is a 4 of, period. Even against aggro. If you run out of removal, what are you going to do with your extra 2-4 life? Maybe have one more frustrating draw step, more times than not.
Perhaps the most interesting choice in my list is Staff of Nin. This card is the nuts. The pinging is relevant as removal (or a sloooow clock). It is especially good when I have Curse of Death's Hold out already. But the draw is really what we need most. We have answers to just about everything, but much of the time we can't find the right ones at the right times. This card helps a lot. Seriously, test it. I would rather cast this than Grave Titan almost all of the time.
Mutilate is better than damnation in mono-black, and great against the field, so it is a 4-of. Always happy to see one in the opening hand. Sorin's Vengeance can win games out of nowhere, and is this decks Corrupt variant. Markov is here to finish the job against aggro, and is a persistent threat to control. Liliana is Liliana. I have found you don't need to have GY cards to get ahead with her. Once you lock the board up, you can turn every card in your hand into a 0-mana discard spell. Karn is good against permanents. And the sideboard is and will be incomplete until the cards are legal and The format shifts.
I omitted Obliterator and Lashwrithe for an important reason: they are not control cards. They are fantastic Mono-Black aggro cards, but I don't think they are what we are looking for here.
This deck can be fast and brutal, with discard and removal clearing the way for a vampire army, or is can be slow and grindy that crushes opponents under raw card advantage. I would love some feedback, and I wanted to share what I thought was the direction we should all be moving.
For reference when building a MBC deck:
Discard Choices:
Duress - It hits noncreature, nonlands cards. Maindeck this if you're playing against a lot of combo and control, otherwise it is a fine sideboard slot.
Despise - This hits creatures and planeswalkers. If you're in an aggro-dominated meta, this is the right choice maindeck. If superfriends is giving you fits, give this a try.
Appetite for Brains - This is a good one to board in against WRR. Hits a card with mana cost 4 or greater. You can grab their Solemn Simulacrum, Huntmaster of the Fells, Primeval Titan...Yeah...If you're seeing a lot of WRR, having Despise main and this as a psuedo-Despise in your sideboard as 1-2 of might not be bad.
Smallpox - Each player sacrifices a creature, sacrifices a land, discards a card, and loses 1 life. Wow. Pretty good for two mana, but I wouldn't invest in a playset as this will set you back more than it will most opponents early on in the game.
Distress - For two mana you can hit any nonland card. For two mana, you can also just draw two cards or kill a threat. I'm not a fan, YMMV.
Mind Rot - Too bad the last half of that doesn't say 'Sludge' instead. As it is, it isn't a half bad card to side in against control to keep their CA in check, or to take the last bit of gas out of fast aggro.
Ravenous Rats - Great card in an aggro-dominated meta. You take some of their gas and put a speed bump in the way. I know. I just said Ravenous Rats was a great card. Sue me.
Sweepers:
Killing Wave - We have better sweepers. This one is just too conditional. If you're feeling brave, go for it.
Ratchet Bomb - Tokens hate seeing this. It also gives you a way to deal with problematic enchantments and artifacts (Looking at you, swords.)
Black Sun's Zenith - More expensive than Mutilate, but it can also come down a turn earlier to wipe a token hoard and it shuffles back in to be seen again later. I suggest a split between this and Mutilate.
Cower in Fear - Three mana instant speed half of an Infest. I don't like it, but if you're playing against a lot of weenie decks, you might consider it. Also consider the fact that a Black Sun's Zenith for 1 does the same and costs the same. You trade the instant speed, but BSZ shuffles back in.
Barter in Blood - Why play this when you could drop a Mutilate instead? Might be alright if you max out on Geth's Verdict and Tribute to Hunger, but you have better options.
Mutilate - One of the best black sweepers ever printed. Period. 3-4 of, or you should consider playing another deck. I personally like 4 of these and 2 Black Sun's Zenith.
Life's Finale - This one may still make its way into a list as a 1-2 of. It is a bit high on the curve, but getting to yank cards from your opponents library is gravy.
Massacre Wurm - A sweeper attached to a win condition. If your entire meta is weenie aggro, you want this guy.
Removal:
Tragic Slip - Kills unflipped Delver of Secrets, Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, and any other one toughness creature. When you have Morbid, it kills anything relevant in standard for the low cost of
Consume Spirit - Removal that can go to the head if need be. It also gains you some life.
Geth's Verdict - Instant speed and can get around shroud and protection from black, provided that they have no other creatures. At its worst, it is a minor speed bump for the opponent. At its best, you just saved yourself from something gnarly.
Doom Blade - Destroy target nonblack creature. Great removal spell. Whether you play this, Dismember, or Go for the Throat depends on your meta.
Go for the Throat - Destroy target nonartifact creature. Great removal spell. Whether you play this, Dismember, or Doom Blade depends on your meta.
Dismember - For one mana and 4 life, target creature gets -5/-5. For two mana and 2 life, target creature gets -5/-5. For three mana, target creature gets -5/-5. Options. I love them. I also love that this is unconditional. It just kills stuff. Whether you play this, Doom Blade, or Go for the Throat depends on your meta. I personally like a split.
Murder - Three mana. Destroy target creature. We have better things right now, but this may end up getting included.
Tribute to Hunger - Pretty good stuff here. Makes your opponent sacrifice a creature and gains you some life to boot. If you're staring down a lot of aggro decks, considering packing some of these.
Sever the Bloodline - Exile target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that creature. Suck it, Spirit tokens.
Card Advanatage:
Sign In Blood - For two mana and two life, you get two cards. A fair cost for card advantage.
Tezzeret's Gambit - For three mana and two life, you get two cards and can proliferate. If you have a machine subtheme or play Inkmoth Nexus this might be worth considering.
Disciple of Bolas - At first glance, I wasn't impressed. After winning my first M13 draft on the back of this + Chronomaton I fell in love with it. The bigger your creatures the better this is, so run it with Lashwrithe for maximum power.
Bloodgift Demon - Phyrexian Arena attached to an evasive win condition. I highly recommend him, but you may have other diabolical schemes.
Staff of Nin - A one-sided Howling Mine that pings away at your opponent or their creatures. I love this card, most people think I'm crazy. Until they lose to it.
Griselbrand - RTFC and tell me why you wouldn't run at least one copy of this guy. I think he's an auto 1-2 of, and the best win condition we have available in addition to being a big black draw spell.
Win Conditions:
Consume Spirit - Removal that can go to the head if need be. It also gains you some life. This is a great win condition alongside Liliana of the Dark Realms.
Vampire Nighthawk One of the most effecient three drops ever printed. 2/3 evasive body with Lifelink and Deathtouch. He can single-handedly keep you in the game against aggro. If you put a Lashwrithe on him, he is downright scary.
Lashwrithe - Living weapon that costs as much as Korlash, is as big as Korlash, and turns another creature into Korlash (Minus the regeneration, but, meh.) for the cost of 4 life or two black mana. Amazing.
Phyrexian Obliterator - I nearly had to change my underpants when this guy was spoiled. He is a very fine choice for any black deck.
Bloodline Keeper - Not much to say here. I think there are better options, but if he works for you by all means. It isn't terrible.
Bloodgift Demon - My favorite. Phyrexian Arena attached to a 5/4 evasive body. For five mana. Added bonus - you can force your opponent to draw and lose a life.
Batterskull - 4/4. Vigilance. Lifelink. You can save it from removal and play it again and again. Great choice here.
Staff of Nin - NIN! NIN! NIN I SAY! STAFF OF NIN! It draws cards and pings away. Much better and much worse choices, but I love this card to death for some reason.
Grave Titan - 6 mana. Ten power. Three bodies. It only gets worse with each swing. This has been one of the go-to finishers for a lot of black-based decks during its lifetime in standard. It is, after all, a titan.
Massacre Wurm - One of the best win conditions in an aggro-dominated meta. Big body with an infest attached. Oh, and you nail them for two for each weenie it takes down. Yes, please.
Wurmcoil Engine - One of the best win conditions in an aggro-dominated meta. The lifegain from this guy is great.
Reaper from the Abyss - Titan stats at titan mana. If you're running a lot of removal, this guy effectively doubles it.
Sheoldred, Whispering One - This one is still a very fine choice, even more so if you're playing a lot of creatures. (Or your opponent is.) Diabolic Edict and Zombify on a stick.
Rune-Scarred Demon - A tutor attached to an evasive body. There are both better and worse choices. If you're on a budget he isn't bad.
Griselbrand - Oh my yes. He costs 8 mana, but he is worth every spent. 7/7 Flying, Lifelink with Pay 7 life: Draw 7 cards? WHAT?
Army of the Damned - If they don't sweep the board, you likely win the turn after casting this. It is a bit high on the curve, but things that single-handedly win the game usually are.
Planeswalkers:
Liliana of the Veil - It has everything a black deck loves. Discard, removal, and...well, I don't know what to call that last ability other than ow.
Liliana of the Dark Realms - Card advantage, removal, and massive amounts of mana should you ultimate it. Combine this with Exsanguinate and you've got yourself a win condition.
Sorin Markov - Not bad, not good. If you run it alongside Sorin's Vengeance, you have yourself a two card combo that can win the game.
Karn Liberated - This guy can deal with just about anything, and AFAIK is the only card black has access to in standard to remove enchantments.
Tutors
Praetor's Grasp - If you know they're using something you can make better use of... otherwise keep it in the junk rare binder.
Diabolic Tutor - Slow, sure, but it can find your silver-bullet card in a pinch.
Diabolic Revelation -I'm still not sure what to think of this one. Anyone who has tried it LMK.
Increasing Ambition - It tutors, then when you cast it again it tutors twice. This thing is NOT to be underestimated, as it can find exactly what you need to seal the game and brings a load of card advantage with it.
Rune-Scarred Demon - Evasive, powerful body attached to a tutor. I like this, as it is CA, Tutor, and Win-condition all in one.
Utility
Nihil Spellbomb - It draws you a card and gets rid of a graveyard. Great stuff.
Surgical Extraction - Yes, please. Neuters combo, zombies recursion shenanigans and gets rid of problematic cards following a discard spell.
Druidic Satchel - This reminds me of Scrying Sheets, in a way. There's some good CA to come from this, but I see it working best in a land heavy build.
Mimic Vat - Its like Isochron Scepter, except for creatures. Works best when you put something with an ETB or a LTB ability under here.
I've gathered every useful card I could find. If I missed something, let me know and I'll get it added. (Still a work in progress) (Feel free to steal this and add to it.)
Trading Post - Turn something you don't want into something more useful. Worst case scenario you sacrifice it to itself draw a card.
Memoricide - Like Surgical Extraction, but you don't have to wait for the card to hit the graveyard. Just name it, and they're gone.
Witchbane Orb - Good card against burn decks and anything that wins by pointing a spell at your head (combo).
Curse of Death's Hold - Anything running creatures hates seeing this, especially tokens and Delver. Try it, it works.
Round 1 against naya pod 1-1-1
game 1 i controlled the board and dropped griselbrand which earned a scoop.
game 2 i got stuck on 2 lands for about 10 draws and scooped
game 3 went forever...i couldnt draw a threat or a way to find one so we went to time
Round 2 home brew R/G aggro 0-2(this made me mad)
game 1 i couldnt draw a board wipe for the life of me
game 2 i mulled to six with 2 obliterators, surgical, depise, 2 lands...drew a land first draw...didnt see another the rest of the game...
round 3 G/W humans 2-0
game 1 board wipes, drop griselbrand win
game 2 curse, board wipe, ratchet bomb, massacre wurm
round 4 Bant blink 2-1
game 1 grave titan, karn, sorin
game 2 couldnt draw any answers
game 3...was nuts i had 0 board presence. he had Tamiyo, Venser, blade splicer 2 golems. i drop solemn...then onbliterator...black sun for 4...search for Karn...wait for 7th land to play Karn...finally drop Karn and found a grave titan. He drew 7 lands in a row the last 7 draws.
round 5 naya aggro(i think) 2-1
game 1 griselbrand, karn wins
game 2 i misplayed and ticked my ratchet bomb up to 1 the turn hero of bladehold dropped
game 3 had to kill a witchbane orb with ratchet bomb to kill him with Sorin 6 turns later.
round 6 UW Delver 1-2 this was my win and in
game 1 Geist is annoying
game 2 i dont really remember but i surgical'd his mana leaks and i won
game 3 got to the late game but consistently drew lands instead of answers.
overall, im overly confident that this deck has no bad matchup at all. my only losses came from too much land draw late game or no land draw at all...
so with that...i am taking out a sign in blood and surgical for 2 druidic satchels.
this will get me that elusive 4th land and it will sift through my land late game.
@ FuxAlt - Good start to that. Other additions are Wurmcoil Engine, Karn Liberated, Ravenous Rats, Bloodline Keeper, Sorin's Vengeance, Cower in Fear, and Sever the Bloodline. I also agree with Jt Pooface with the removal of cards that aren't constructed playable. And like he said, Nighthawk and Lashwrithe should be there somewhere.
I think a description of each card and its uses is the next step to that primer.
I cant remember my sideboard for the life of me but this deck made it to top 4 where we split the packs. Let me know what you guys think.
Changes I would make would fit the 4th tailsman in there. Probably take out the vengence for it. I would also like to fit 1 maybe 2 karns in the main but I have no idea what I would take out. To be honest I love the way it played, very smooth and always having an answer. The only loss I had was against a miracle deck. I had 6-8 dead cards in my hand game 1.
4x Sign in Blood
4x Despise
3x Mutilate
2x Doom Blade
2x Go for the Throat
2x Geth's Verdict
1x Tribute to Hunger
2x Demonic Rising
3x Inkmoth Nexus
21x Swamp
Sideboard:
4x Phyrexian Crusader
2x Lashwrithe
3x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Sever the Bloodline
1x Mutilate
Put this together and did a little testing. It loses to Delver too often IMO. I did read your description, and it seemed like they didn't have all the answers that the Delver decks I was playing had. How do you sideboard against Delver?
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Against Delver I sided in 2 Surgical and 1 Mutilate. Took out one Karn, Lashwrithe, and a Raveonous Rats. The matchup should be super easy. I never once felt out of control against the delver matchup. The creatures hitting the board shouldn't stay there for long. Especially if you drop a liliana. They have a lot of filter cards but they waste turns filtering instead of dropping cards. In that time you're seeing their hand and keeping what does hit the board clear. The one card that gives the deck a fit is Blade Splicer. It makes sacrifice effects poor but you can tell what they have in hand by it (Sac golem they have Resto, sac dude they have tempo spells.) Mutilate just crushes them and Moorland gives us some fits with equipment.
Obviously I'm a little more mid range than most in here. I just don't like the possibility of multiple 6 and 7 drops in my opening hand vs delver. Way too slow. Stripping their hand with targeted discard and then dropping significant threats they must answer starting turn 3 is a better plan IMO.
Plus Nighthawk and Obliterator are just too good to not play.
Against Delver I sided in 2 Surgical and 1 Mutilate. Took out one Karn, Lashwrithe, and a Raveonous Rats. The matchup should be super easy. I never once felt out of control against the delver matchup. The creatures hitting the board shouldn't stay there for long. Especially if you drop a liliana. They have a lot of filter cards but they waste turns filtering instead of dropping cards. In that time you're seeing their hand and keeping what does hit the board clear. The one card that gives the deck a fit is Blade Splicer. It makes sacrifice effects poor but you can tell what they have in hand by it (Sac golem they have Resto, sac dude they have tempo spells.) Mutilate just crushes them and Moorland gives us some fits with equipment.
Yeah, I played against 2 Delver decks. I lost 1-2 to each one. The first Delver deck played Moorland Haunts with Swords, and I just couldn't keep the board clear. They dropped a Sword of Feast and Famine and it was gg when they Mana Leaked my Mutilate twice in a row due to Snapcaster. I sided much the same way you did, although I took out a Nighthawk instead of a Rats.
Second Delver deck was a RUW using Runechanter's Pikes. I lost the first game just due to tempo. Second game a Bloodgift hit and stuck, and the card advantage gave me the win. Third game it was close, got him down to 3 life before he landed a Resto Angel with a +13 Pike out, and I had just used my last answer to get rid of his Geist of Saint Traft. Vapor Snagging his own Geist made me waste two Mutilates.
I think the answer to both of these decks might have been Nihil Spellbomb. The Snapcaster reuse was killer to me in both matchups. Sword of Feast and Famine hurt a little, and since I couldn't land a big threat due to Mana Leaks, I couldn't outrace him once a Sword hit.
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You can leave their CPurges in their deck, if you can hit leaks hit them first as target #1. You can leave Snapcaster in their deck. Theyre not going to win the game with a 2/1 swinging and vapor snagging. They'll win the game snapcaster mana leaking. That's what despise is supposed to be for, to stop ETB effect creatures like him. If he's vapor snagging his own angels/Geists I'd be super happy. They end up going back a turn. I don't know. I loved my delver matchup a ton. I never felt threatened by Delver.
People were excited about monoblack because of Mutilate reprint, but I think that Lashwrithe is drawing me in. Disciple of Bolas eating an equipped guy draws so many cards. Lash on a Nighthawk is impossible to race. Does that make it Mono Black Aggro/midrange instead of Mono Black Control? Probably.
To be honest, midrange strategies are still control oriented. Despise/Duress, card advantage, and board control are all prevalent. When you go the aggro route, you are not controlling at all. Zombies is not MBC. I think I get upset the most at when people label MBC to anything mono black.
@FuxAlt - I applaud you for putting together a Primer. It's clear you put a lot of work into it, and that should be recognized.
With that said, there are a few areas that need to be worked on. First, there needs to be other sample lists, with possible descriptions of the different ways MBC can be built. Lists from BuishGreen, ViciousBoston, and PJ should definitely be included as they have results to back it up. Also, regarding the sample list there, has there been any testing with it? It's seems suspect, and if it doesn't have results (doesnt have to be a pro tour; FNM or even good online testing is fine) I don't think it should be there as an example, regardless if it is your list or not.
Second, you're missing some important cards for people to consider, such as:
Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger, Ratchet Bomb, Increasing Ambition, Curse of Death's Hold, Mimic Vat, Batterskull, Memoricide, Surgical Extraction, Consume Spirit, Witchbane Orb, Druidic Satchel, And Trading Post.
There's no reason to play Exsanguinate when Consume Spirit is a card in MBC.
Finally, why on earth is Caress of Phyrexia on the list?..
@FuxAlt - I applaud you for putting together a Primer. It's clear you put a lot of work into it, and that should be recognized.
With that said, there are a few areas that need to be worked on. First, there needs to be other sample lists, with possible descriptions of the different ways MBC can be built. Lists from BuishGreen, ViciousBoston, and PJ should definitely be included as they have results to back it up. Also, regarding the sample list there, has there been any testing with it? It's seems suspect, and if it doesn't have results (doesnt have to be a pro tour; FNM or even good online testing is fine) I don't think it should be there as an example, regardless if it is your list or not.
Second, you're missing some important cards for people to consider, such as:
Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger, Ratchet Bomb, Increasing Ambition, Curse of Death's Hold, Mimic Vat, Batterskull, Memoricide, Surgical Extraction, Consume Spirit, Witchbane Orb, Druidic Satchel, And Trading Post.
There's no reason to play Exsanguinate when Consume Spirit is a card in MBC.
Finally, why on earth is Caress of Phyrexia on the list?..
Caress of Phyreexia: Because, poison counters, man. I was just looking for all of the options for CA. I admit, it sucks.
Decklists:
Can you link me to their most recent lists, or, guys, can you get me your lists so I can add them to the primer?
The list I placed in the primer is a pile of jank placed there as a placeholder. For the love of God, don't play that thing.
The point of Increasing Ambition is to search for answers, not just for Karn. If you're running it to only search for Karn, you're doing it wrong.
@ bjorn222 - I think it's clear that there are many different ways to build MBC. Some are having success focusing on creatures like Nighthawk, Wurmcoil, Griselbrand, etc., some are having success with a more controlling, less creatures build, and others are managing to win with a heavy discard style deck. A primer would have to include all of the above, as there is no "right way" based on the success stories people have posted.
The good thing about this is it shows there are some strong cards for MBC right now, and if FNM is your end game, you can probably do well with whatever style of build as long as you practice and adjust to your meta.
For pro play, we have yet to see what MBC will finally settle into. Perhaps then a primer will emerge. I believe early on it will be the creature focus (such as decks with Nighthawks and others), and will turn into a more controlling build as the meta develops.
Now for some constructive critisicm(spelled wrong or something whatever)
Staff of Nin Works wonders!
Casting it with board presence you can get those x/1's and if you dont have any creatures on the board, neither should they. And my god does 2 cards a turn Rock or what.
This list is headed in the right direction but I feel it needs more control.
Garroth, any suggestions?
Credit to Five-Handed Lizard Shop for the amazing Sig.
Link
Standard: MBC
EDH:
Kaalia
If you think the discussion is meaningless then that's your loss. Last I checked, the whole purpose of a forum is to exchange ideas and give and receive input. There is a lot of collective wisdom here if you are willing to listen.
The fact is- there are so many good cards to choose from for a MBC list right now, that there is NOT a consistent base that should be universal for all builds. There are several variants: ramp (mana baubles, simulacrum, fatties/vengeance), midrange disruption (rats/nighthawks/lashwrithes/bloodgifts), and more aggro oriented builds with obliterator and/or messenger. All of which are worth discussing in this thread, and are considerably different from one another.
Also- not to beat a dead horse, but why is ravenous rats "bad discard"? I see people saying that here and there, stating their opinions as though they were facts. Guess you missed the post earlier today where the guy won 5 straight rounds in a FNM against tier 1 decks with 4x "bad discard" mainboard. I've been playing online with them a ton too. They work well in so many situations. But its not my loss if anyone wants to write them off without even testing them. They are good in this deck. Start calling it "good discard".
Fires :symr:f Salvation
What is MBC?
MBC is a control deck that likes to grind card advantage and creatures (Into fresh meat.). You also don't play any of those fancy blue lands. Just pure, evil incarnate.
How do I build it?
There are a few different routes one could theoretically go to build a MBC deck, as there are currently an abundance of choices in standard. It depends on your metagame and your particular playstyle
Why should I play it?
Control without islands is fun. You can also wreck traditional control decks. In fact, you wreck anything if your maindeck and sideboard are put together correctly. A maindeck full of removal wrecks aggro, and can transform into a control destroyer by siding in a lot of discard spells.
Why should I listen to FuxAlt? He's like, never won anything?!
No good answer to this one. Play swamps
Sample Lists:
ViciousBoston
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Bloodgift Demon
4x Ravenous Rats
4x Vampire Nighthawk
1x Lashwrithe
4x Sign in Blood
4x Despise
3x Mutilate
2x Doom Blade
2x Go for the Throat
2x Geth's Verdict
1x Tribute to Hunger
2x Demonic Rising
21x Swamp
4x Phyrexian Crusader
2x Lashwrithe
3x Duress
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Sever the Bloodline
1x Mutilate
BluishGreen1.8T
1x Nefarox
1x grave titan
1x wurmcoil
1x griselbrand
4x duress
1x elixer of immortality
2x distress
3x sign in blood
3x pristine talisman
2x druidic satchel
4x mutilate
2x black sun zenith
2x dismember
2x go for the throat
2x increasing ambition
2x curse of deaths hold
1x sorin markov
1x karn
1x karn
3x surgical
2x ratchet bomb
2x phyrexian obliterator
2x doom blade
1x sorins vengeance
1x massacre wurm
2x nihil spellbomb
1x grave titan
PJ I
4 sign in blood
4 duress
4 mutilate
4 vampire nighthawk
3 pristine tailsman
2 go for the throat
2 doom blade
2 black sun's zenith
2 sorin markov
2 lilianna of the veil
2 grave titan
1 batterskull
1 sorin's vengence
1 curse of death's hold
SpreadLikeJerms
MonoBlack Control
By: GeronimusPrime
Type II
Archive: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1026352
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Sorin Markov
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Duress
2 Go for the Throat
4 Ichor Wellspring
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
4 Pristine Talisman
4 Sorin's Vengeance
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Throne of Geth
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Phyrexia's Core
17 Swamp
2 Barter in Blood
3 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Diabolic Revelation
2 Doom Blade
2 Duress
2 Mutilate
2 Tormod's Crypt
DirtyFishhook's MBC
For reference when building a MBC deck:
Discard Choices:
Despise - This hits creatures and planeswalkers. If you're in an aggro-dominated meta, this is the right choice maindeck. If superfriends is giving you fits, give this a try.
Appetite for Brains - This is a good one to board in against WRR. Hits a card with mana cost 4 or greater. You can grab their Solemn Simulacrum, Huntmaster of the Fells, Primeval Titan...Yeah...If you're seeing a lot of WRR, having Despise main and this as a psuedo-Despise in your sideboard as 1-2 of might not be bad.
Smallpox - Each player sacrifices a creature, sacrifices a land, discards a card, and loses 1 life. Wow. Pretty good for two mana, but I wouldn't invest in a playset as this will set you back more than it will most opponents early on in the game.
Distress - For two mana you can hit any nonland card. For two mana, you can also just draw two cards or kill a threat. I'm not a fan, YMMV.
Mind Rot - Too bad the last half of that doesn't say 'Sludge' instead. As it is, it isn't a half bad card to side in against control to keep their CA in check, or to take the last bit of gas out of fast aggro.
Ravenous Rats - Great card in an aggro-dominated meta. You take some of their gas and put a speed bump in the way. I know. I just said Ravenous Rats was a great card. Sue me.
Sweepers:
Killing Wave - We have better sweepers. This one is just too conditional. If you're feeling brave, go for it.
Ratchet Bomb - Tokens hate seeing this. It also gives you a way to deal with problematic enchantments and artifacts (Looking at you, swords.)
Black Sun's Zenith - More expensive than Mutilate, but it can also come down a turn earlier to wipe a token hoard and it shuffles back in to be seen again later. I suggest a split between this and Mutilate.
Cower in Fear - Three mana instant speed half of an Infest. I don't like it, but if you're playing against a lot of weenie decks, you might consider it. Also consider the fact that a Black Sun's Zenith for 1 does the same and costs the same. You trade the instant speed, but BSZ shuffles back in.
Barter in Blood - Why play this when you could drop a Mutilate instead? Might be alright if you max out on Geth's Verdict and Tribute to Hunger, but you have better options.
Mutilate - One of the best black sweepers ever printed. Period. 3-4 of, or you should consider playing another deck. I personally like 4 of these and 2 Black Sun's Zenith.
Life's Finale - This one may still make its way into a list as a 1-2 of. It is a bit high on the curve, but getting to yank cards from your opponents library is gravy.
Massacre Wurm - A sweeper attached to a win condition. If your entire meta is weenie aggro, you want this guy.
Removal:
Consume Spirit - Removal that can go to the head if need be. It also gains you some life.
Geth's Verdict - Instant speed and can get around shroud and protection from black, provided that they have no other creatures. At its worst, it is a minor speed bump for the opponent. At its best, you just saved yourself from something gnarly.
Doom Blade - Destroy target nonblack creature. Great removal spell. Whether you play this, Dismember, or Go for the Throat depends on your meta.
Go for the Throat - Destroy target nonartifact creature. Great removal spell. Whether you play this, Dismember, or Doom Blade depends on your meta.
Dismember - For one mana and 4 life, target creature gets -5/-5. For two mana and 2 life, target creature gets -5/-5. For three mana, target creature gets -5/-5. Options. I love them. I also love that this is unconditional. It just kills stuff. Whether you play this, Doom Blade, or Go for the Throat depends on your meta. I personally like a split.
Murder - Three mana. Destroy target creature. We have better things right now, but this may end up getting included.
Tribute to Hunger - Pretty good stuff here. Makes your opponent sacrifice a creature and gains you some life to boot. If you're staring down a lot of aggro decks, considering packing some of these.
Sever the Bloodline - Exile target creature and all other creatures with the same name as that creature. Suck it, Spirit tokens.
Card Advanatage:
Tezzeret's Gambit - For three mana and two life, you get two cards and can proliferate. If you have a machine subtheme or play Inkmoth Nexus this might be worth considering.
Disciple of Bolas - At first glance, I wasn't impressed. After winning my first M13 draft on the back of this + Chronomaton I fell in love with it. The bigger your creatures the better this is, so run it with Lashwrithe for maximum power.
Bloodgift Demon - Phyrexian Arena attached to an evasive win condition. I highly recommend him, but you may have other diabolical schemes.
Staff of Nin - A one-sided Howling Mine that pings away at your opponent or their creatures. I love this card, most people think I'm crazy. Until they lose to it.
Griselbrand - RTFC and tell me why you wouldn't run at least one copy of this guy. I think he's an auto 1-2 of, and the best win condition we have available in addition to being a big black draw spell.
Win Conditions:
Consume Spirit - Removal that can go to the head if need be. It also gains you some life. This is a great win condition alongside Liliana of the Dark Realms.
Vampire Nighthawk One of the most effecient three drops ever printed. 2/3 evasive body with Lifelink and Deathtouch. He can single-handedly keep you in the game against aggro. If you put a Lashwrithe on him, he is downright scary.
Lashwrithe - Living weapon that costs as much as Korlash, is as big as Korlash, and turns another creature into Korlash (Minus the regeneration, but, meh.) for the cost of 4 life or two black mana. Amazing.
Phyrexian Obliterator - I nearly had to change my underpants when this guy was spoiled. He is a very fine choice for any black deck.
Bloodline Keeper - Not much to say here. I think there are better options, but if he works for you by all means. It isn't terrible.
Bloodgift Demon - My favorite. Phyrexian Arena attached to a 5/4 evasive body. For five mana. Added bonus - you can force your opponent to draw and lose a life.
Batterskull - 4/4. Vigilance. Lifelink. You can save it from removal and play it again and again. Great choice here.
Staff of Nin - NIN! NIN! NIN I SAY! STAFF OF NIN! It draws cards and pings away. Much better and much worse choices, but I love this card to death for some reason.
Grave Titan - 6 mana. Ten power. Three bodies. It only gets worse with each swing. This has been one of the go-to finishers for a lot of black-based decks during its lifetime in standard. It is, after all, a titan.
Massacre Wurm - One of the best win conditions in an aggro-dominated meta. Big body with an infest attached. Oh, and you nail them for two for each weenie it takes down. Yes, please.
Wurmcoil Engine - One of the best win conditions in an aggro-dominated meta. The lifegain from this guy is great.
Nefarox, Overlord of Grixis - He flies. He hits for 6. He makes your opponent sacrifice a creature.
Reaper from the Abyss - Titan stats at titan mana. If you're running a lot of removal, this guy effectively doubles it.
Sheoldred, Whispering One - This one is still a very fine choice, even more so if you're playing a lot of creatures. (Or your opponent is.) Diabolic Edict and Zombify on a stick.
Rune-Scarred Demon - A tutor attached to an evasive body. There are both better and worse choices. If you're on a budget he isn't bad.
Sorin's Vengeance - Twenty point life swing. Nuff said.
Griselbrand - Oh my yes. He costs 8 mana, but he is worth every spent. 7/7 Flying, Lifelink with Pay 7 life: Draw 7 cards? WHAT?
Army of the Damned - If they don't sweep the board, you likely win the turn after casting this. It is a bit high on the curve, but things that single-handedly win the game usually are.
Planeswalkers:
Liliana of the Dark Realms - Card advantage, removal, and massive amounts of mana should you ultimate it. Combine this with Exsanguinate and you've got yourself a win condition.
Sorin Markov - Not bad, not good. If you run it alongside Sorin's Vengeance, you have yourself a two card combo that can win the game.
Karn Liberated - This guy can deal with just about anything, and AFAIK is the only card black has access to in standard to remove enchantments.
Tutors
Diabolic Tutor - Slow, sure, but it can find your silver-bullet card in a pinch.
Diabolic Revelation -I'm still not sure what to think of this one. Anyone who has tried it LMK.
Increasing Ambition - It tutors, then when you cast it again it tutors twice. This thing is NOT to be underestimated, as it can find exactly what you need to seal the game and brings a load of card advantage with it.
Rune-Scarred Demon - Evasive, powerful body attached to a tutor. I like this, as it is CA, Tutor, and Win-condition all in one.
Utility
Nihil Spellbomb - It draws you a card and gets rid of a graveyard. Great stuff.
Surgical Extraction - Yes, please. Neuters combo, zombies recursion shenanigans and gets rid of problematic cards following a discard spell.
Druidic Satchel - This reminds me of Scrying Sheets, in a way. There's some good CA to come from this, but I see it working best in a land heavy build.
Mimic Vat - Its like Isochron Scepter, except for creatures. Works best when you put something with an ETB or a LTB ability under here.
I've gathered every useful card I could find. If I missed something, let me know and I'll get it added. (Still a work in progress) (Feel free to steal this and add to it.)
Trading Post - Turn something you don't want into something more useful. Worst case scenario you sacrifice it to itself draw a card.
Memoricide - Like Surgical Extraction, but you don't have to wait for the card to hit the graveyard. Just name it, and they're gone.
Witchbane Orb - Good card against burn decks and anything that wins by pointing a spell at your head (combo).
Curse of Death's Hold - Anything running creatures hates seeing this, especially tokens and Delver. Try it, it works.
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Round 1 against naya pod 1-1-1
game 1 i controlled the board and dropped griselbrand which earned a scoop.
game 2 i got stuck on 2 lands for about 10 draws and scooped
game 3 went forever...i couldnt draw a threat or a way to find one so we went to time
Round 2 home brew R/G aggro 0-2(this made me mad)
game 1 i couldnt draw a board wipe for the life of me
game 2 i mulled to six with 2 obliterators, surgical, depise, 2 lands...drew a land first draw...didnt see another the rest of the game...
round 3 G/W humans 2-0
game 1 board wipes, drop griselbrand win
game 2 curse, board wipe, ratchet bomb, massacre wurm
round 4 Bant blink 2-1
game 1 grave titan, karn, sorin
game 2 couldnt draw any answers
game 3...was nuts i had 0 board presence. he had Tamiyo, Venser, blade splicer 2 golems. i drop solemn...then onbliterator...black sun for 4...search for Karn...wait for 7th land to play Karn...finally drop Karn and found a grave titan. He drew 7 lands in a row the last 7 draws.
round 5 naya aggro(i think) 2-1
game 1 griselbrand, karn wins
game 2 i misplayed and ticked my ratchet bomb up to 1 the turn hero of bladehold dropped
game 3 had to kill a witchbane orb with ratchet bomb to kill him with Sorin 6 turns later.
round 6 UW Delver 1-2 this was my win and in
game 1 Geist is annoying
game 2 i dont really remember but i surgical'd his mana leaks and i won
game 3 got to the late game but consistently drew lands instead of answers.
overall, im overly confident that this deck has no bad matchup at all. my only losses came from too much land draw late game or no land draw at all...
so with that...i am taking out a sign in blood and surgical for 2 druidic satchels.
this will get me that elusive 4th land and it will sift through my land late game.
I think a description of each card and its uses is the next step to that primer.
4 sign in blood
4 duress
4 mutilate
4 vampire nighthawk
3 pristine tailsman
2 go for the throat
2 doom blade
2 black sun's zenith
2 sorin markov
2 lilianna of the veil
2 grave titan
1 batterskull
1 sorin's vengence
1 curse of death's hold
I cant remember my sideboard for the life of me but this deck made it to top 4 where we split the packs. Let me know what you guys think.
Changes I would make would fit the 4th tailsman in there. Probably take out the vengence for it. I would also like to fit 1 maybe 2 karns in the main but I have no idea what I would take out. To be honest I love the way it played, very smooth and always having an answer. The only loss I had was against a miracle deck. I had 6-8 dead cards in my hand game 1.
Thanks to xeno for the sig and avvy!!!
Put this together and did a little testing. It loses to Delver too often IMO. I did read your description, and it seemed like they didn't have all the answers that the Delver decks I was playing had. How do you sideboard against Delver?
Fires :symr:f Salvation
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Duress
4 Sign in Blood
4 Lashwrithe
2 Essence Harvest
4 Mutilate
2 Doom Blade
2 Go for the Throat
Obviously I'm a little more mid range than most in here. I just don't like the possibility of multiple 6 and 7 drops in my opening hand vs delver. Way too slow. Stripping their hand with targeted discard and then dropping significant threats they must answer starting turn 3 is a better plan IMO.
Plus Nighthawk and Obliterator are just too good to not play.
Yeah, I played against 2 Delver decks. I lost 1-2 to each one. The first Delver deck played Moorland Haunts with Swords, and I just couldn't keep the board clear. They dropped a Sword of Feast and Famine and it was gg when they Mana Leaked my Mutilate twice in a row due to Snapcaster. I sided much the same way you did, although I took out a Nighthawk instead of a Rats.
Second Delver deck was a RUW using Runechanter's Pikes. I lost the first game just due to tempo. Second game a Bloodgift hit and stuck, and the card advantage gave me the win. Third game it was close, got him down to 3 life before he landed a Resto Angel with a +13 Pike out, and I had just used my last answer to get rid of his Geist of Saint Traft. Vapor Snagging his own Geist made me waste two Mutilates.
I think the answer to both of these decks might have been Nihil Spellbomb. The Snapcaster reuse was killer to me in both matchups. Sword of Feast and Famine hurt a little, and since I couldn't land a big threat due to Mana Leaks, I couldn't outrace him once a Sword hit.
Fires :symr:f Salvation
You will win the game
Fires :symr:f Salvation
Someone also point me to some MBC decks that have done well so I can add them under sample lists.
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With that said, there are a few areas that need to be worked on. First, there needs to be other sample lists, with possible descriptions of the different ways MBC can be built. Lists from BuishGreen, ViciousBoston, and PJ should definitely be included as they have results to back it up. Also, regarding the sample list there, has there been any testing with it? It's seems suspect, and if it doesn't have results (doesnt have to be a pro tour; FNM or even good online testing is fine) I don't think it should be there as an example, regardless if it is your list or not.
Second, you're missing some important cards for people to consider, such as:
Geth's Verdict, Tribute to Hunger, Ratchet Bomb, Increasing Ambition, Curse of Death's Hold, Mimic Vat, Batterskull, Memoricide, Surgical Extraction, Consume Spirit, Witchbane Orb, Druidic Satchel, And Trading Post.
There's no reason to play Exsanguinate when Consume Spirit is a card in MBC.
Finally, why on earth is Caress of Phyrexia on the list?..
For FuxAlt: links to the three decks mentioned above
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8679786&postcount=908
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8690805&postcount=979
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8693868&postcount=995
And for the Garroth, PJ, ViciousBoston and BluishGreen1.3T
His list may be untested but Staff of Nin really does deserve a place in monoblack control.
try testing it as its worked for me
Credit to Five-Handed Lizard Shop for the amazing Sig.
Link
Standard: MBC
EDH:
Kaalia
Caress of Phyreexia: Because, poison counters, man. I was just looking for all of the options for CA. I admit, it sucks.
Decklists:
Can you link me to their most recent lists, or, guys, can you get me your lists so I can add them to the primer?
The list I placed in the primer is a pile of jank placed there as a placeholder. For the love of God, don't play that thing.
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Credit to Five-Handed Lizard Shop for the amazing Sig.
Link
Standard: MBC
EDH:
Kaalia
1x Nefarox
1x grave titan
1x wurmcoil
1x griselbrand
4x duress
1x elixer of immortality
2x distress
3x sign in blood
3x pristine talisman
2x druidic satchel
4x mutilate
2x black sun zenith
2x dismember
2x go for the throat
2x increasing ambition
2x curse of deaths hold
1x sorin markov
1x karn
1x karn
3x surgical
2x ratchet bomb
2x phyrexian obliterator
2x doom blade
1x sorins vengeance
1x massacre wurm
2x nihil spellbomb
1x grave titan