My thought process was if Cavern of souls is basically going to shut down our Mana Leak / Snapcaster Mage engine we will have to do something to control their creatures while they are on the battlefield. Hence why I thought Dungeon Giest and Tumble magnet may have been a good idea since they are control type cards.
By no means should we remove our bread an butter spells (Ponder, Vapor Snag etc) but if we cant stop a turn 4 titan from hitting the table at least we can do is stop him from swinging at us.
I really dont see that card being that big of a problem against a deck that runs it *namely ramp* you just counter the ramp spells. Its all a game of playing smarter not harder
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
@Cev:Cavern of Souls does not belong in this deck. You are running a total of 5 devils and 7 humans, all of which cost 2 or less. That is 12 creatures total. Mana leak is the most played counterspell in standard and with such cheap creatures, if you really cared so much you could play around it. Hellrider also is pretty poor in a deck with so few creatures. This is all besides the point that you are running 24 spells that cavern will be next to useless in aiding to cast. Of these 24 spells souls will never help you with 10 of them. You might as well run 19 lands and more low cost threats.
@Topper: I have tried thought scour multiple times and I don't like it. It always mills me something important and than I draw a land lol. Its always a tie between FL and TT, although FL is better because it helps me dump my excess lands. And I guess the Images could go in the side...I dk...I've playtested them in the main and it works fine, just as long as its not in my opening hand. And why only play with 3 pikes? u/w Delver runs 4?
Not a big fan of Stormblood Berserker in UR tempo. You're not always burning your opponent out, and you need mana open for the counter/bounce that takes place in a tempo game.
Also, I realize FL has its strengths, but try Thought Scour first. It does the same thing FL does, but at instant speed, and you don't have to make what can be very risky choices. Cut one Pike and put in another Incinerate (4 Pikes is too much for a deck that doesn't run many creatures). Cut one Image for another Snapcaster.
but attacking with delver?
delver will activate the bloodthirst, not always burn.
You played JESUS?!?! I heard none of his guys stay in the graveyard, and once you think you have him beat he ALWAYS comes back to win within three turns. I like...WORSHIP him.
You can use looter and lighthouse for ...well... looting. This deck makes use of those discarded cards with Grim Lavamancer : )
Is 24 lands to many? How about Reforge The Soul? Temporal Mastery?
Brimstone Volley
Incinerate
Pillar of Flame
2/3 Dangerous Wager
Phantasmals to copy opposing Geists and ramped titans as well as copying Devil, Snapcaster, Delver
Just a thought could also swap out the Phantasmal for Grim Lavamancer
but attacking with delver?
delver will activate the bloodthirst, not always burn.
There are too many potential scenarios in which SB is a dead card. Maybe you're about to swing with Delver, with SB in your hand, and Delver gets killed. Or maybe Delver does swing, and you get your SB, but next turn your opponent drops down a more imposing threat. Maybe you don't have burn with SB in your hand. Or maybe you do, but you need to pass the turn because Mana Leak is in your hand.
The point of this reverse goldfishing is that SB requires a specific play when he's in your hand. There's an upside to that. A 3/3 that's hard to block is quite good. But it's also restrictive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
are people just missing that they can go a more u/r humans route for this deck with caverns for humans and you get Zealous Conscripts for the ramp/control matchups..
Delve wouldn't fly in the above human deck. Just throw cavern of souls out the window. Its not that good and in UR it is even worse. Delve needs a high spell count while caverns needs a high tribal creature count. Two polar opposite ends of the spectrum.
Thus far the deck has performed relatively well, even against Esper Walkers and U/W Delver. I feel the burn arsenal gives us a lot of reach and allows us to win games we ususally couldn't win. Here is the rational around a few of my card choices.
Pillar of Flames: I feel no matter what, we need a 1 mana burn spell. Against a Delver Mirror Gut shot and Galvanic blast are better but against Zombies & any deck that runs Havengul Lich Pillar is superior. Also being able to exile a strangleroot qiest is huge as well, and with R/G Aggro's consistent rise in popularity and its good finishes at events I feel this card is worthy of a main deck spot. I am by no means saying Galvanic Blast is bad, but when exiling the creature is needed, nothing else will do and I am willing to cast the spell at sorcery speed to do it. A full set of incinerates is my instant speed burn. However SBing Gutshot is likely a good idea against a Delver mirror, or any deck that makes really significant 1cc drops.
Cavern of Souls: Lets all be honest with ourselves, at best our manabase is kinda mediocre. On turn 1 this deck wants to either ponder, or drop a delver. Seeing that Snap, Delver and Grim are all humans I didn't see a downside to running Cavern of Souls. It by no means is a second dual land, hence why I only run 2. I tried three and if I ever came across 2 in a game it really messed things up. So in order to balance my manabase, this build ups the average Island count dropping a few mountains and adding a pair of caverns. I feel they don't get in the way and in general. Also, not allowing them to counter your turn 3 or later delver is nice too. I also like it for the next card I will talk about.
Zealous Conscripts: I have 5 words for you, "gain control of target permanent." With cavern of souls coming out, I feel a lot...and I mean tons of decks will be running it. So we need an answer to the creatures we cannot counter. Also, its great stealing planeswalkers and using them on your turn, or gaining control of a sword so you can burn the creature it was attached to, or equip the sword yourself. I wish Zealous Conscripts didn't cost 5, but it can quickly change the board state for that turn. However, I am still wondering is Dungeon Giest or Hellrider is a better choice due to their lower mana cost. Or maybe a Tammiyo or perhaps batterskull?... I am not sure yet. I do like how he is a human and thus cavern of souls can help you as well.
Thunderous Wrath: To quote the immortal Corbin Dallas..."Big Badda Boom." I tried to run 4 but in your opening hand they are dead cards. However 2 feels like to few. But, setting them up with ponder has been very effective and being able to ding 25% of your oppenents life with 1 card is pretty game changing. Turn 1 Delver, followed by flipping the delver on Turn 2 and casting ponder to setup a turn 3 Thunderous wrath is huge.Getting the opponent below 10 so quickly makes finishing them with your other burn so nice. Right now I am treating this card as a Brimstone volley replacement, which I am not sure is completely correct. Maybe 2 Volleys, and 3 wraths is the way to go. Either way I feel we need these high damage spells to really keep pressure on our opponent or just out right win, incinerates and galvanic blasts wont do everything for us. Could you imagine if we had Char right now?
Thought Scour: I prefer thought scour since ponder is relatively common, and its nice to mess up the opponents library setup with it. However, Gitaxian probe is nice also, but in general I dont need to see the opponents hand to know I basically need to counter spell any 4+ mana cost spell they cast post turn 3. But, could this be replaced with faithless looting?
Side thoughts:
I had very little success with vexing devil. When you want him to stick, they take the 4 damage and late game they would let him stick and simply remove or bounce him. Has anyone had better success in there testing? I thought you could treat him like a demi-burn spell but since they dont take the damage late game and you cant flash him back with Snapcaster, he really isn't a burn spell.
Reforge the soul seems bad for us since you want to keep the card advantage to yourself.
I am up in the air about Dangerous Wager, I feel this deck doesn't ussually have fewer then 3 cards in hand, and most of the time they are all usefull.
Is Thunderbolt a SB option?
I hate lingering souls so much...is Bonfire of the Damn a possible option?
@Cev:Cavern of Souls does not belong in this deck. You are running a total of 5 devils and 7 humans, all of which cost 2 or less. That is 12 creatures total. Mana leak is the most played counterspell in standard and with such cheap creatures, if you really cared so much you could play around it. Hellrider also is pretty poor in a deck with so few creatures. This is all besides the point that you are running 24 spells that cavern will be next to useless in aiding to cast. Of these 24 spells souls will never help you with 10 of them. You might as well run 19 lands and more low cost threats.
How will the cavern be useless for 24 spells?
I mean, I can see it not aiding with Ponder or Vapor Snag, but that's only 7 spells out of my list, and those require only a blue source to begin with.
Might consider dropping the count down to 2 and adding an Island though.
I mean, I can see it not aiding with Ponder or Vapor Snag, but that's only 7 spells out of my list, and those require only a blue source to begin with.
Might consider dropping the count down to 2 and adding an Island though.
This is what I did in my above build and it seemed to work well.
Pedro,
That was similar to what I'd been brewing.
The only changes I had were a few evolving wilds (which also fuel the lavamancers) and a few Stitched Drakes.
My sideboard at the moment consists of ratchet bombs, act of aggressions, dungeon geists, phantasmal images and some negates and whipflares.
the meta for this weekend's SCG tournament here in RI will prolly be Ramp, Delver designed to beat Ramp, R/G aggro and maybe some leftover tokens strategies.
u/r delver seems to sit somewhere in the middle, as I've been doing will vs u/w delver and against g/r aggro and can burn out Ramp occassionaly or steal their titans and KO them with conscripts pre board. Post board, the Geists and Acts ruin them (as mana leaks come out).
What About Temporal Mastery, Has anyone run it and actually had it help them? I am debating running it as a 1 of but I am worried it would add inconsistency.
SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
Question about this deck. Is it completely useless without Snapcaster Mage?
Currently I don't have the resources to get my hands on them. I have some cards with trade value from the new set, but I'd like to try running almost all of them in this deck (Vexing Devil, Tamiyo, Bonfire, Cavern). I do pretty well with my deck the way it is, but it's sort of in a state of flux where I'm not really sure what it's supposed to be doing.
The hard thing is figuring out how much burn I want and how much I should focus on countermagic. The rumblings are that Cavern of Souls is going to make Mana Leak drop from an instant 4-of to a situation 2 or 3. You're not going to be making everything uncounterable, but negates might do better in the future.
Brimstone Volley obviously does well with Vexing Devil if you've got the mana, so I might toss those in. I'd like to run Desolate Lighthouse, but without Snapcasters there's really nothing I'd be willing to discard besides dead miracles. I wish Pillar of Flame was instant, but as it is I'll probably keep it in my board against Strangleroot Geists and the like.
And beyond all this is this question: What am I trying to do? UR Delver is in a very weird place between burn, control, and aggro. Is that okay? Maybe, maybe not. Suggestions and feedback are not only welcomed, I'm desperate for them
This is my current build on UR Delver Pike....seems to run pretty strong, surprisingly I'm testing the cutting of leaks in favor of faithless looting due to cavern of souls being everywhere.
This deck can have either early starts w delver or come outta nowhere and just win with a stalker+pike. I've tested the berserker, noble, grim lavamancer, and even some soulbound stuff like the lookout and the trample guy. Haven't tested the Hexproof soul bound guy yet. But this list is pretty solid...still working the kinks in the board, might drop something for negate main but who knows...any feedback is appreciated thanks
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
Type 2
B/WR Dega Midrange B Mono B Devotion
Modern RBG Jund RG Tron
Great site below of a buddy of mine, if you love video game humor
Question about this deck. Is it completely useless without Snapcaster Mage?
I wouldn't say COMPLETELY useless. But Snapcaster does allow you to start throwing up burn spells, like 6 damage EoT with Incinerate, Snapcaster + Incinerate, next turn swing then blast for 5 with a Brimstone Volley, then pop a shrine if you have one out.
Just allows for more consistency. Personally, I say run 3 minimum.
Tamiyo's Emblem looks absolutely brutal with this deck. I learned how harsh it could be when I used it in conjunction with Righteous Blow in my sealed pool. That was the only card left in my hand, it was the only one I needed. 5 white open = Your crap is all going to die when you swing, or if you block.
Utilizing that with, oh I dunno, ANY BURN SPELL AT ALL, is gross.
Tami's emblem is pretty much a win if you pull it off, but that's not going to happen on a regular basis. You could try running Tezzeret's Gambit and Volt Charge to help get there, perhaps, but I'm not so sure that's actually a good idea.
As far as it goes with out snapcaster here is my view. When I originally started playing this deck and was thinking of how to make it *I made it before finding this forum* I thought to myself that i was to play RDW but I also really like Delver but honestly dont like playing tier one decks its just not my thing I like to be outside of the box. So my very first though was what one thing can I do to instantly make RDW better. Add snapcaster. Then i thought what other can i add to it. Thats how i got started. Will the deck play with out snapcaster sure but snapcaster WILL 100% make the deck better.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
sideboard is still at works and will largely depend on the current meta but I may add more sweep for tokens
I really love having a first hand that has at least:
Mountain
Vexing Devil
Noxious Revival
You may ask why there are no Mana Leak's but when I was testing the list with Leaks I found them to be dead most of the time and I'm losing tempo and pressure
I would rather have Burns and Threats than Counterspell.
Originally I have 4 Leaks in exchange of Phantasmal Image and Surgical Extraction but with the rise of animators I think Phantasmal Image and Surgical Extraction is a better call.
The biggest WTF is no mana leak. Not only is caravan of souls a card, but this type of deck just doesn’t have time to cast a mana leak. The basic premise is to set up miracles with noxious revival and faithless looting so you can use Thunderous Wrath as many times as possible. Vexing devil gets a lot of hate because it gives your opponent a choice, but the choices it provides are powerful in the early game. Bonfire of the damned is a house either way its casted, as most times I’ll just be using it to get rid of lingering souls tokens.
Looking at Gerry Thompson's list, it seems like a more burn oriented approach is the way to go, so ditching Mana Leaks is understandable. Not sure we're talking 'tempo' at this point, however.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I really dont see that card being that big of a problem against a deck that runs it *namely ramp* you just counter the ramp spells. Its all a game of playing smarter not harder
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
but attacking with delver?
delver will activate the bloodthirst, not always burn.
My 180 Modern Bordered Only Cube
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
3 Merfolk Looter
4 Delver Of Secrets
INSTANT/SORCERY (18)
2 Vapor Snag
4 Thunderous Wrath
2 Mana Leak
1 Vanishment
2 Bonfire Of The Damned
4 Incinerate
3 Ponder
4 Shrine Of Burning Rage
LANDS (24)
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Desolate Lighthouse
10 Mountain
8 Island
You can use looter and lighthouse for ...well... looting. This deck makes use of those discarded cards with Grim Lavamancer : )
Is 24 lands to many? How about Reforge The Soul? Temporal Mastery?
RADAMARO, FIRST TO DESIRER
UKEFNET THE MINDFULU
GSASAYA, OROCHI ASCENDANTG
MODERN
RMONO-RED ELDRAZIR
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
4 Vexing Devil
4 Phantasmal Image
No mana leaks all burn and some vapor snags
Brimstone Volley
Incinerate
Pillar of Flame
2/3 Dangerous Wager
Phantasmals to copy opposing Geists and ramped titans as well as copying Devil, Snapcaster, Delver
Just a thought could also swap out the Phantasmal for Grim Lavamancer
There are too many potential scenarios in which SB is a dead card. Maybe you're about to swing with Delver, with SB in your hand, and Delver gets killed. Or maybe Delver does swing, and you get your SB, but next turn your opponent drops down a more imposing threat. Maybe you don't have burn with SB in your hand. Or maybe you do, but you need to pass the turn because Mana Leak is in your hand.
The point of this reverse goldfishing is that SB requires a specific play when he's in your hand. There's an upside to that. A 3/3 that's hard to block is quite good. But it's also restrictive.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
humans:
delver
snapcaster
lavamancer
bserker
hero of oxid
lightening mauler
wing crafter
mass appeal for card draw
obv more of a creature deck than tempo, but...
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Zeolous Conscripts
4 Incinerate
4 Mana Leak
3 Thought Scour
3 Thunderous Wrath
4 Vapor Snag
4 Ponder
2 Cavern of Souls
10 Island
6 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
Thus far the deck has performed relatively well, even against Esper Walkers and U/W Delver. I feel the burn arsenal gives us a lot of reach and allows us to win games we ususally couldn't win. Here is the rational around a few of my card choices.
How will the cavern be useless for 24 spells?
I mean, I can see it not aiding with Ponder or Vapor Snag, but that's only 7 spells out of my list, and those require only a blue source to begin with.
Might consider dropping the count down to 2 and adding an Island though.
This is what I did in my above build and it seemed to work well.
That was similar to what I'd been brewing.
The only changes I had were a few evolving wilds (which also fuel the lavamancers) and a few Stitched Drakes.
My sideboard at the moment consists of ratchet bombs, act of aggressions, dungeon geists, phantasmal images and some negates and whipflares.
the meta for this weekend's SCG tournament here in RI will prolly be Ramp, Delver designed to beat Ramp, R/G aggro and maybe some leftover tokens strategies.
u/r delver seems to sit somewhere in the middle, as I've been doing will vs u/w delver and against g/r aggro and can burn out Ramp occassionaly or steal their titans and KO them with conscripts pre board. Post board, the Geists and Acts ruin them (as mana leaks come out).
should be an interesting tournament this weekend.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vexing Devil
3 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Ponder
4 Mana Leak
3 Vapor Snag
1 Disperse
4 Desperate Ravings
3 Incinerate
3 Brimstone Volley
3 Thunderous Wrath
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Ghost Quarter
5 Mountain
8 Island
4 Negate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flashfreeze
1 Vaporsnag
3 Revoke Existence
3 Bonfire of the Damned
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
I really prefer Steel Sabotage over Torch Fiend since you can snap it back with snap caster.
Currently I don't have the resources to get my hands on them. I have some cards with trade value from the new set, but I'd like to try running almost all of them in this deck (Vexing Devil, Tamiyo, Bonfire, Cavern). I do pretty well with my deck the way it is, but it's sort of in a state of flux where I'm not really sure what it's supposed to be doing.
I'm running:
2 Vexing Devil
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Stromkirk Nobles
3 Invisible Stalker
1 Sword of War and Peace
3 Runechanter's Pike
4 Mana Leak
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Galvanic Blast
4 Ponder
2 Thunderous Wrath
1 Dissipate
The hard thing is figuring out how much burn I want and how much I should focus on countermagic. The rumblings are that Cavern of Souls is going to make Mana Leak drop from an instant 4-of to a situation 2 or 3. You're not going to be making everything uncounterable, but negates might do better in the future.
Brimstone Volley obviously does well with Vexing Devil if you've got the mana, so I might toss those in. I'd like to run Desolate Lighthouse, but without Snapcasters there's really nothing I'd be willing to discard besides dead miracles. I wish Pillar of Flame was instant, but as it is I'll probably keep it in my board against Strangleroot Geists and the like.
And beyond all this is this question: What am I trying to do? UR Delver is in a very weird place between burn, control, and aggro. Is that okay? Maybe, maybe not. Suggestions and feedback are not only welcomed, I'm desperate for them
2 Desolate Lighthouse
10 Island
6 Mountain
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Invisible Stalker
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Chandra's Pheonix
4 Thought Scour
4 Ponder
3 Faithless Looting
4 Incinerate
3 Pillar of Flame
3 Vapor Snag
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Slagstorm
3 Gut Shot
3 Negate
3 Spellskite
This deck can have either early starts w delver or come outta nowhere and just win with a stalker+pike. I've tested the berserker, noble, grim lavamancer, and even some soulbound stuff like the lookout and the trample guy. Haven't tested the Hexproof soul bound guy yet. But this list is pretty solid...still working the kinks in the board, might drop something for negate main but who knows...any feedback is appreciated thanks
Type 2
B/WR Dega Midrange
B Mono B Devotion
Modern
RBG Jund
RG Tron
Great site below of a buddy of mine, if you love video game humor
http://www.sickosonparade.com
I wouldn't say COMPLETELY useless. But Snapcaster does allow you to start throwing up burn spells, like 6 damage EoT with Incinerate, Snapcaster + Incinerate, next turn swing then blast for 5 with a Brimstone Volley, then pop a shrine if you have one out.
Just allows for more consistency. Personally, I say run 3 minimum.
Tamiyo's Emblem looks absolutely brutal with this deck. I learned how harsh it could be when I used it in conjunction with Righteous Blow in my sealed pool. That was the only card left in my hand, it was the only one I needed. 5 white open = Your crap is all going to die when you swing, or if you block.
Utilizing that with, oh I dunno, ANY BURN SPELL AT ALL, is gross.
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Vexing Devil
2x Phantasmal Image
4x Snapcaster Mage
Instant
4x Noxious Revival
4x Thunderous Wrath
2x Surgical Extraction
4x Incinerate
2x Brimstone Valley
4x Ponder
2x Bonfire of the Damned
Lands
2x Desolate Lighthouse
2x Ghost Quarter
6x Island
6x Mountains
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Phantasmal Image
4x Pillar of Flame
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Sword of War and Peace
2x Manabarbs
sideboard is still at works and will largely depend on the current meta but I may add more sweep for tokens
I really love having a first hand that has at least:
Mountain
Vexing Devil
Noxious Revival
You may ask why there are no Mana Leak's but when I was testing the list with Leaks I found them to be dead most of the time and I'm losing tempo and pressure
I would rather have Burns and Threats than Counterspell.
Originally I have 4 Leaks in exchange of Phantasmal Image and Surgical Extraction but with the rise of animators I think Phantasmal Image and Surgical Extraction is a better call.
Cards being considered:
Try this list and LMK your thoughts
4 thunderous wrath
4 vexing devil
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 delver of secrets
3 Galvanic Blast
4 Noxious Revival
2 brimstone volley
3 Mana Leak
3 Vapor Snag
2 thought scour
2 desolate lighthouse
2 rootbound crag
9 mountain
5 island
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vexing Devil
3 FetterGeist
3 Noxious Revival
3 Thunderous Wrath
4 Ponder
3 Faithless Looting
3 Incinerate
3 Brimstone Valley
2 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Temporal Mastery
1 Devastating Tide
4 Sulfur Falls
8 Islands
6 Mountains
3 Copperline Gorge
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Zealous Constricts
1 Act of Aggression
3 Negate
2 Surgical extraction
1 Bonfire of the Damned
The biggest WTF is no mana leak. Not only is caravan of souls a card, but this type of deck just doesn’t have time to cast a mana leak. The basic premise is to set up miracles with noxious revival and faithless looting so you can use Thunderous Wrath as many times as possible. Vexing devil gets a lot of hate because it gives your opponent a choice, but the choices it provides are powerful in the early game. Bonfire of the damned is a house either way its casted, as most times I’ll just be using it to get rid of lingering souls tokens.
Thoughts and suggestions are encouraged.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New