As the title suggestions... Bonfire of the Damned wins almost every game it's played off the top. It's a one sided Wrath of God. Is it too powerful for standard?
When casted from miracle at the proper time, it is incredibly powerful. However when hard-casted, it is under par to other sweepers and spells (regardless of it being a one-sided sweeper). It has become acustom that if you want to consitently see it hit the board, you need to play a 4-set. it's an extremely risky spell to play with, as alot of the time it becomes a dead card in hand never to be played, especially in aggro where the mana curves out at around 5. But these are the risks you take as a red mage. The last blocks of standard have not been doing much for red, the spell is needed for red mages.
I personally hate being bonfired, but I love casting it, as does anyone. I do not think it is overpowered, it just feels that way since competitive meta's are filled with them. I think after rotation when the meta changes, we may see some less of the bonfires.
I feel like a card is only overpowered if there is no easy way to deal with it.
bonfire of the damned is strong, but it is after all just a spell, which can be countered. Hell, it is a $30 dollar burn spell that can be fizzled by a penny common (outwit)
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(O_o) .....the face I made the moment I realized that deep down.... I am a mill deck player.
When casted from miracle at the proper time, it is incredibly powerful. However when hard-casted, it is under par to other sweepers and spells (regardless of it being a one-sided sweeper). It has become acustom that if you want to consitently see it hit the board, you need to play a 4-set. it's an extremely risky spell to play with, as alot of the time it becomes a dead card in hand never to be played, especially in aggro where the mana curves out at around 5. But these are the risks you take as a red mage. The last blocks of standard have not been doing much for red, the spell is needed for red mages.
I personally hate being bonfired, but I love casting it, as does anyone. I do not think it is overpowered, it just feels that way since competitive meta's are filled with them. I think after rotation when the meta changes, we may see some less of the bonfires.
I highlighted exactly why I don't think this card isn't OP. The decks it truly shines in (aggro) inherits the most risk when playing it. There will be many times where an aggro deck can't or wont want to cast the miracle and end up being stuck with essentially a dead card in hand because the CC is just too high. This coupled with the fact that red is by and far the weakest color currently leads me to believe it's indeed not OP. Even if, for instance, red gets a boost in RTR, the game will more than likely have slowed down by then (how could it get faster?) making Bonfire less useful. The card is fine and nowhere near Jace power level as some would lead you to believe.
Miracle is infurating, and Bonfire is the best example of why. The card is good even when you're hardcasting it, but it sickeningly degenerate when it is being cast as a Miracle.
Fortunately, it is in a color that is practically unplayed in Standard. Now we just have to hope that red continues to be awful for the next year, because people will hate Standard more than they ever have if we start seeing Bonfire in every other deck.
B/R zombies is losing virtually nothing in rotation, and is gaining an entire block of possible cards to draw from. If that sets the standard for speed, I don't see the meta slowing down.
I seriously have to wonder how many people posting in this thread have played with Bonfire, or played against 60% of the current Standard Tournament meta.
The card is absolutely busted. Personally, I feel it is incredibly unhealthy for Standard, and wish it didn't exist. Being that it does, you simply run 4 copies and hope to be luckier than your opponent.
The problem with Bonfire, moreso than the other Miracles, is that when Miracled, the game ends on the spot. G/R and Naya Aggro/Pod lists are your current "Aggro" decks (though Naya leans more Midrange), with a splash of BR Zombie.
In the Green based aggro decks, top decking this card at any point after turn 4, ends the game if you have a red source and any creature presense on board. It's not so much that the effect is overpowered, though a 1 sided Fireball + Wrath is... well.. yeah, a little much. It's that the decks it fits best in, typically end the game the moment it's cast.
Unlike the other Miracles, having a Bonfire in your opening hand is not that bad. The decks which are running it run 8 mana dorks, meaning Turn 4 Hardcast Bonfire for 2 is a very relevant thing. Two toughness happens to be a very key stat in the current meta.
Naya, GR, and now UWR Midrange (Hi Max) matchups come down almost primarily to ONE question. Who hit Bonfire? If the answer is no one, then you get a decent game of Magic out of it. However, if one turns up, the entire rest of the game matters almost none, as it's going to be Side A with Creatures, ready to Alpha, side B with no defense and having just taken a shot to the face.
I'm aware this sounds like little more than an angry rant, and for that I appologize. My intent was honestly to post an intelligent response outlining the major concerns with the card, but I get a little frustrated.
Miracle Bonfire ends the game much the same way Miracle Entreat does, except much more easily splashed (not to mention in a color that aggro decks are already happily splashing for Zealous Conscripts) and able to be hardcast on Turn 4 for a VERY relevant effect. Essentially, there's no downside to the card. Hardcast for 2 will set almost any Aggro/Midrange deck WAY behind.
I understand WoTC wanted the Miracle mechanic to create tension, and I think they did a fine job with some of them. Terminus feels correctly costed, and the effect is powerful, but Linear (though advantage can be gained through Planeswalkers). Entreat is costly and a near dead card if not Miracled, but ends the game if unchecked for 1 turn. Revenge is powerful, but unless it hits a Hexproof creature, insert "Dies to Removal" argument here. Temporal Mastery is solid for Miracle, and at 7 mana hard cast, feels fair in the decks that support it.
Bonfire is just plain too good. If you are playing Aggro/Midrange and not running them, you are wrong. It's the most powerful spell in the game right now, and when your opponent has the ability to top deck an instant win and you do not, you're going to have a much tougher time keeping parity.
Don't know about you guys - i been running mono green. Seen about 4 miracled bod's this month. Didn't do anything but sweep dorks. By turn 6 or 7, im set, don't need dorks by then. Geists pop back up. Bod rules and is huge. But far from broken. In standard its a fast game, so early bonfires arent that horrible....i think its a heck of a game changer. But again, far from broken.
It's not too hard to counter. If you are playing someone you know has BoD and you are a aggro deck don't play your entire hand at once. Save a creature or two in case they BoD. They need cards like that to keep Aggro decks from ruling.
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Much like with Jace, I bet the only people defending this absolute BS card are those who have a set.
If this was printed as a card without miracle, it would have seen play in standard. The miracle is what makes it degenerate to the extreme. Entreat is total BS also but at least that one isn't splashable. What a "coincidence" that the most BS miracles are the ones that are mythic.
I despise lucksack mechanics like miracle and cascade. We are paying hundreds dollars for cardboard, can we get a game of skill? If I wanted to play a game of who can topdeck the right card at the right time, I can go buy a pack of playing cards for like a dollar and go play old maid or something. Wish I never got into Magic.
I am absolutely not shaking hands with anyone who beats me with this card, ever.
I played a Tezz deck for game day with 1 wurmcoil and 3 metmorphs (so, really no creatures). In one game my opponent miracle Bonfired me for 7, but I survived (going down to like 11). A turn or two later he taps 7 mana to hard cast another one. As I had no creatures in play he effectively lightning bolted me. But instead of paying R, he paid 6R and effectively timewalked himself.
I'll pay 3 life any day (abet late game) to have my opponent skip their turn.:tongue:
Its only a "lucksack" component to those who don't use strategy.
Playing green? Keep a fog in your hand for fatal damage.
Playing blue? Keep a negate in your hand for a miracle card.
Playing white? Keep a safe passage in your hand.
Playing black? Keep a Go for the throat in your hand or undying on the field.
What you want isn't "skill" You just want to play every card in your hand and want it to always win unless an opponent plays every card in his hand and its superior to the every card you played in your hand.
I never play as red and I have encountered plenty of miracle'd terminus, entreat and bonfires and still won.
If you want to play as skill, play control, but seeing as you seem to lack it you will probably lose a lot and complain "control is too weak"
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So placing top 8 in every FNM I've ever done as mono black control is fairly weak huh? Mimic Vat -> Mutilate is just as effective as Bonfire of the Damned
Not to mention a black discard deck placed top 8 in PTQ
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As a standalone card, I think bonfire is slightly to powerful for it's cost. It being overly splashable is my main qualm with the card.
Contextually, I like bonfire in standard. It's often a blowout, but I don't find it more of a deck constraint as ponder and vapor snag put on standard. I don't even mind bonfire blowouts in Green mirrors because unless it's turn 3 killing all the mana dorks, I don't find it much different then a giant Trump.
Also, not shaking hands with someone due to a bad beat makes you a child.
Edit: I top 8'd FNM with a Grixis tezz deck that I litteraly built before the tournament and the sideboard was...suboptimal. There where 50 people, and lots of good players there. What's the point of this? Anyone can top 8 FNM because you're inevitably going to play garbage players/decks for half the rounds so your FNM experience has no bearing on what's likely to perform at premiere competitive events.
LP, I'm checking your article out as well. Behind all of your swag is the brain of one of the most intelligent Magic players I've ever known. I guess that's one more thing for you to add to the wall of ego that is your Sally sig.
I can go with that. LK, you are the Mace Windu of red mages...cool, tempered logic in deliberation, but capable of just flat kicking tail when the situation warrants it.
Here's a question. If Bonfire of the Damned is a instant win how come there is never even a single one in any tournament decks? Not even decks with Index/Ponder and other library rearranging cards. Oh. Thats right. Because good players prepare for it when facing red.
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btw, you cannot comment on the general meta of the standard format based upon what your local FNM meat looks like. Look at some major events if you want to determine what truly are the strongest decks in the format... Report back to me, with the amount of MBC decks you find up there.
Oh I'm sorry how many of those decks use Bonfire of the damned? I'm pretty sure I found 1 mono black control deck. I haven't seen a single deck or sideboard using bonfire.
Sideboard Witchbane orb. Use Negate. Safe Passage. Fog.
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When casted from miracle at the proper time, it is incredibly powerful. However when hard-casted, it is under par to other sweepers and spells (regardless of it being a one-sided sweeper). It has become acustom that if you want to consitently see it hit the board, you need to play a 4-set. it's an extremely risky spell to play with, as alot of the time it becomes a dead card in hand never to be played, especially in aggro where the mana curves out at around 5. But these are the risks you take as a red mage. The last blocks of standard have not been doing much for red, the spell is needed for red mages.
I personally hate being bonfired, but I love casting it, as does anyone. I do not think it is overpowered, it just feels that way since competitive meta's are filled with them. I think after rotation when the meta changes, we may see some less of the bonfires.
why do you love casting it? I sincerely doubt you planned to miracle a bonfire. there are very few decks that run ponder with it. In reality you get lucky when you draw it later in the game. While I do realize and consider the miracle cards their miracle cmc you can't really plan around an insta-gib like that. Everytime I miracle RotH i feel ****ty but take my win anyways. Miracle Bonfire is even more of a blowout.
Cards like these are not good for a healthy format. The miracle effect is a horrible idea imo and I almost exclusively play brainstorm/ponder decks where they are best.
I wouldn't be suprised if bonfire is the first standard red banned card ever (or at least for the last decade). I also think that it should be banned.
Much like with Jace, I bet the only people defending this absolute BS card are those who have a set.
If this was printed as a card without miracle, it would have seen play in standard. The miracle is what makes it degenerate to the extreme. Entreat is total BS also but at least that one isn't splashable. What a "coincidence" that the most BS miracles are the ones that are mythic.
I despise lucksack mechanics like miracle and cascade. We are paying hundreds dollars for cardboard, can we get a game of skill? If I wanted to play a game of who can topdeck the right card at the right time, I can go buy a pack of playing cards for like a dollar and go play old maid or something. Wish I never got into Magic.
I am absolutely not shaking hands with anyone who beats me with this card, ever.
I have 3 Bonfires and I agree that it's a completely busted card. I mean come on, spalashable in any deck, good when hardcast, and an absolute blowout game-changer when miracled? I hear people all the time defend this card saying "you can always topdeck something good." BS. Show me a card that comes even close to saving your ass to this extent when your situation would otherwise be completely hopeless.
At a tournament I went to yesterday, a younger kid was doing quite well with a interesting, budget homebrew and facing an experienced store regular for the 8th position in the top 8. He was at 11 life with 3 or 4 creatures on the board, opponent was at 3 life with a 3/2 or 3/3 on the board (don't remember exactly.) Well, what do you know, just as the opponent is about to lose, the he miracles a Bonfire for 8, and swings with his creature to win it. I don't know how someone can feel satisfied winning in such a way.
Here's a question. If Bonfire of the Damned is a instant win how come there is never even a single one in any tournament decks? Not even decks with Index/Ponder and other library rearranging cards. Oh. Thats right. Because good players prepare for it when facing red.
Every top deck that has red in it uses Bonfire(s).
You are mentioning cards like Index, Fog, and Safe Passage in your argument, you HAVE to be a troll. 8/10 for making me respond.
Here's a question. If Bonfire of the Damned is a instant win how come there is never even a single one in any tournament decks? Not even decks with Index/Ponder and other library rearranging cards. Oh. Thats right. Because good players prepare for it when facing red.
Index is unplayable and you are using your success at FNM with mono black as some sort of argumentative point. Also, almost every card you listed as a foil to Bonfire is total garbage in constructed and also pretty bad in limited.
As for winning deck lists, I'd recommend looking harder.
Bonfire cast for five from the hand is a really powerful play in this meta. The Miracle cost is just absurd.
In the end it's still just an X-burn spell though, so it's by no means busted. Just good. And lord knows red needs the good spells.
Get used to the "I-Win" cards, they're going to be printing more. Last season, I lost too many matches to a top-deck Primeval Titan, or more than 1 summoning trap in hand. Bonfire certainly isn't as potent as JTMS, or at least can't really be compared because they have such different effects. Some people don't realise, maybe because blue is a little more subtle, but untapping with JTMS ends a game most of the time.
The real problem is that although god knows that red needs some love (we all know - i hate the color, bur still it sux atm): Bonfire doesn't go in red decks. It goes in ALL decks. Decks that play nothing but creatures and lands will have 2-4 BoD in their 75 cards. The card is being played in pretty much all top 8 decks, and the reason why TMS was banned was due to too many top 8 decks running it. If rotation will bring a meta where BoD is at least as effective as it is right now --> then a ban may not be unrealistic. (i know, wizards don't do bans unless the format is extremely unhealthy like in the caw blade days).
I feel like we can't have this discussion until Delver is splashing red for Bonfire.
If you look at the last two weeks 42% are aggro, 50% control and 8% other.
The top three aggro decks are
UW Delver - No Bonfire
Zombies - No bonfire
GW/Naya Pod - No bonfire
The top 4 Control decks are
Tezz control - No bonfire
Birthing Pod - Few bonfire, not all
Mono Black Control - No bonfire
UWx Midrange - No bonfire
Interesting. Only one type of deck, two if you count the one zombie deck that had bonfire in its sideboard runs bonfire of the damned and yet people STILL win without it. If its as common as you say apparently they went up against it.
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I personally hate being bonfired, but I love casting it, as does anyone. I do not think it is overpowered, it just feels that way since competitive meta's are filled with them. I think after rotation when the meta changes, we may see some less of the bonfires.
WR Boros Burn WR
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bonfire of the damned is strong, but it is after all just a spell, which can be countered. Hell, it is a $30 dollar burn spell that can be fizzled by a penny common (outwit)
I highlighted exactly why I don't think this card isn't OP. The decks it truly shines in (aggro) inherits the most risk when playing it. There will be many times where an aggro deck can't or wont want to cast the miracle and end up being stuck with essentially a dead card in hand because the CC is just too high. This coupled with the fact that red is by and far the weakest color currently leads me to believe it's indeed not OP. Even if, for instance, red gets a boost in RTR, the game will more than likely have slowed down by then (how could it get faster?) making Bonfire less useful. The card is fine and nowhere near Jace power level as some would lead you to believe.
Fortunately, it is in a color that is practically unplayed in Standard. Now we just have to hope that red continues to be awful for the next year, because people will hate Standard more than they ever have if we start seeing Bonfire in every other deck.
The card is absolutely busted. Personally, I feel it is incredibly unhealthy for Standard, and wish it didn't exist. Being that it does, you simply run 4 copies and hope to be luckier than your opponent.
The problem with Bonfire, moreso than the other Miracles, is that when Miracled, the game ends on the spot. G/R and Naya Aggro/Pod lists are your current "Aggro" decks (though Naya leans more Midrange), with a splash of BR Zombie.
In the Green based aggro decks, top decking this card at any point after turn 4, ends the game if you have a red source and any creature presense on board. It's not so much that the effect is overpowered, though a 1 sided Fireball + Wrath is... well.. yeah, a little much. It's that the decks it fits best in, typically end the game the moment it's cast.
Unlike the other Miracles, having a Bonfire in your opening hand is not that bad. The decks which are running it run 8 mana dorks, meaning Turn 4 Hardcast Bonfire for 2 is a very relevant thing. Two toughness happens to be a very key stat in the current meta.
Naya, GR, and now UWR Midrange (Hi Max) matchups come down almost primarily to ONE question. Who hit Bonfire? If the answer is no one, then you get a decent game of Magic out of it. However, if one turns up, the entire rest of the game matters almost none, as it's going to be Side A with Creatures, ready to Alpha, side B with no defense and having just taken a shot to the face.
I'm aware this sounds like little more than an angry rant, and for that I appologize. My intent was honestly to post an intelligent response outlining the major concerns with the card, but I get a little frustrated.
Miracle Bonfire ends the game much the same way Miracle Entreat does, except much more easily splashed (not to mention in a color that aggro decks are already happily splashing for Zealous Conscripts) and able to be hardcast on Turn 4 for a VERY relevant effect. Essentially, there's no downside to the card. Hardcast for 2 will set almost any Aggro/Midrange deck WAY behind.
I understand WoTC wanted the Miracle mechanic to create tension, and I think they did a fine job with some of them. Terminus feels correctly costed, and the effect is powerful, but Linear (though advantage can be gained through Planeswalkers). Entreat is costly and a near dead card if not Miracled, but ends the game if unchecked for 1 turn. Revenge is powerful, but unless it hits a Hexproof creature, insert "Dies to Removal" argument here. Temporal Mastery is solid for Miracle, and at 7 mana hard cast, feels fair in the decks that support it.
Bonfire is just plain too good. If you are playing Aggro/Midrange and not running them, you are wrong. It's the most powerful spell in the game right now, and when your opponent has the ability to top deck an instant win and you do not, you're going to have a much tougher time keeping parity.
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If this was printed as a card without miracle, it would have seen play in standard. The miracle is what makes it degenerate to the extreme. Entreat is total BS also but at least that one isn't splashable. What a "coincidence" that the most BS miracles are the ones that are mythic.
I despise lucksack mechanics like miracle and cascade. We are paying hundreds dollars for cardboard, can we get a game of skill? If I wanted to play a game of who can topdeck the right card at the right time, I can go buy a pack of playing cards for like a dollar and go play old maid or something. Wish I never got into Magic.
I am absolutely not shaking hands with anyone who beats me with this card, ever.
I'll pay 3 life any day (abet late game) to have my opponent skip their turn.:tongue:
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Playing: Designing:
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Playing green? Keep a fog in your hand for fatal damage.
Playing blue? Keep a negate in your hand for a miracle card.
Playing white? Keep a safe passage in your hand.
Playing black? Keep a Go for the throat in your hand or undying on the field.
What you want isn't "skill" You just want to play every card in your hand and want it to always win unless an opponent plays every card in his hand and its superior to the every card you played in your hand.
I never play as red and I have encountered plenty of miracle'd terminus, entreat and bonfires and still won.
If you want to play as skill, play control, but seeing as you seem to lack it you will probably lose a lot and complain "control is too weak"
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Mimic Vat -> Mutilate is just as effective as Bonfire of the Damned
Not to mention a black discard deck placed top 8 in PTQ
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Contextually, I like bonfire in standard. It's often a blowout, but I don't find it more of a deck constraint as ponder and vapor snag put on standard. I don't even mind bonfire blowouts in Green mirrors because unless it's turn 3 killing all the mana dorks, I don't find it much different then a giant Trump.
Also, not shaking hands with someone due to a bad beat makes you a child.
Edit: I top 8'd FNM with a Grixis tezz deck that I litteraly built before the tournament and the sideboard was...suboptimal. There where 50 people, and lots of good players there. What's the point of this? Anyone can top 8 FNM because you're inevitably going to play garbage players/decks for half the rounds so your FNM experience has no bearing on what's likely to perform at premiere competitive events.
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Oh I'm sorry how many of those decks use Bonfire of the damned? I'm pretty sure I found 1 mono black control deck. I haven't seen a single deck or sideboard using bonfire.
Sideboard Witchbane orb. Use Negate. Safe Passage. Fog.
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why do you love casting it? I sincerely doubt you planned to miracle a bonfire. there are very few decks that run ponder with it. In reality you get lucky when you draw it later in the game. While I do realize and consider the miracle cards their miracle cmc you can't really plan around an insta-gib like that. Everytime I miracle RotH i feel ****ty but take my win anyways. Miracle Bonfire is even more of a blowout.
Cards like these are not good for a healthy format. The miracle effect is a horrible idea imo and I almost exclusively play brainstorm/ponder decks where they are best.
I wouldn't be suprised if bonfire is the first standard red banned card ever (or at least for the last decade). I also think that it should be banned.
I have 3 Bonfires and I agree that it's a completely busted card. I mean come on, spalashable in any deck, good when hardcast, and an absolute blowout game-changer when miracled? I hear people all the time defend this card saying "you can always topdeck something good." BS. Show me a card that comes even close to saving your ass to this extent when your situation would otherwise be completely hopeless.
At a tournament I went to yesterday, a younger kid was doing quite well with a interesting, budget homebrew and facing an experienced store regular for the 8th position in the top 8. He was at 11 life with 3 or 4 creatures on the board, opponent was at 3 life with a 3/2 or 3/3 on the board (don't remember exactly.) Well, what do you know, just as the opponent is about to lose, the he miracles a Bonfire for 8, and swings with his creature to win it. I don't know how someone can feel satisfied winning in such a way.
Every top deck that has red in it uses Bonfire(s).
You are mentioning cards like Index, Fog, and Safe Passage in your argument, you HAVE to be a troll. 8/10 for making me respond.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=1&start_date=2012-08-05&end_date=2012-08-05&event_ID=19
All four Naya decks running 4 MAINDECK Bonfire.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=1&start_date=2012-07-22&end_date=2012-07-29&city=Buffalo&start_num=25&start_num=0&limit=25
Naya 2 Main, 1 SB, WRR 4 Maindeck.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=1&start_date=2012-07-15&end_date=2012-07-22&city=Las+Vegas&start_num=25&start_num=0&limit=25
BR zombies with 1, Naya 3/1 split, UWR 3 MD, Naya Pod 2 MD, Naya aggro 4 MD, RG aggro 4 MD, Frites, 2 MD, RG aggro 4 MD. 8/16 of the Top 16 decks were running Bonfire.
FIFTY PERCENT OF THE TOP 16.
You are so right; no one is running this obviously terrible card.
P.S. Nath'd but meh, it's clear what's really going on.
Index is unplayable and you are using your success at FNM with mono black as some sort of argumentative point. Also, almost every card you listed as a foil to Bonfire is total garbage in constructed and also pretty bad in limited.
As for winning deck lists, I'd recommend looking harder.
Bonfire cast for five from the hand is a really powerful play in this meta. The Miracle cost is just absurd.
In the end it's still just an X-burn spell though, so it's by no means busted. Just good. And lord knows red needs the good spells.
I feel like we can't have this discussion until Delver is splashing red for Bonfire.
The top three aggro decks are
UW Delver - No Bonfire
Zombies - No bonfire
GW/Naya Pod - No bonfire
The top 4 Control decks are
Tezz control - No bonfire
Birthing Pod - Few bonfire, not all
Mono Black Control - No bonfire
UWx Midrange - No bonfire
Interesting. Only one type of deck, two if you count the one zombie deck that had bonfire in its sideboard runs bonfire of the damned and yet people STILL win without it. If its as common as you say apparently they went up against it.
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