I wasn't playing when original Ravnica was in standard, so i have following question:
How many shocklands did control play at that time when it was 3 - colored control? Full amount or less?
I am thinking of building Grixis control in new standard, and cant decide how many shocklands i should run. Ideal would be 8 before 2nd expansion, but wont it hurt me too much - Grixis tends to play a lot of low-costed answers/draws, thats why i loved scars duals.
Relying on the shocklands for a stable manabase isn't necessarily smart. The shockland/duals work well in modern/legacy largely because of the fetchlands allowing you to find the relevant lands for the cards in your hand. If you do not need dual mana, then you can just find a basic instead of a shockland. If you need both, then you find one of the 2-3 shocklands that you have in your deck.
In short- modern manabase is not reliant on shockland. It makes their deck much more consistent, but really it's the fetches that give them the consistency.
You don't have fetchlands in standard, and so every shockland you play has to be played with the knowledge that it will zap you hard and that you may or may not get the mana you need if you play a deck that plays more than 2 colors.
Honestly, I wouldn't see the need to run anymore than 2-3 of any given shockland in lieu of the basic you would normally run. The shocklands make the M10 duals even more consistent, and I'd rely on them cause they don't shock you.
Relying on the shocklands for a stable manabase isn't necessarily smart. The shockland/duals work well in modern/legacy largely because of the fetchlands allowing you to find the relevant lands for the cards in your hand. If you do not need dual mana, then you can just find a basic instead of a shockland. If you need both, then you find one of the 2-3 shocklands that you have in your deck.
In short- modern manabase is not reliant on shockland. It makes their deck much more consistent, but really it's the fetches that give them the consistency.
You don't have fetchlands in standard, and so every shockland you play has to be played with the knowledge that it will zap you hard and that you may or may not get the mana you need if you play a deck that plays more than 2 colors.
Honestly, I wouldn't see the need to run anymore than 2-3 of any given shockland in lieu of the basic you would normally run. The shocklands make the M10 duals even more consistent, and I'd rely on them cause they don't shock you.
They will be run as a 4-of in any dual colored deck. Last time they were in standard, all 2 color deck manabases started with 4 shocks and 4 painlands.
Fetchlands make these lands very good, but they are not the only reason why people run them. Also, why are you bringing up fetchlands anyhow? This is a standard forum.
Relying on the shocklands for a stable manabase isn't necessarily smart. The shockland/duals work well in modern/legacy largely because of the fetchlands allowing you to find the relevant lands for the cards in your hand. If you do not need dual mana, then you can just find a basic instead of a shockland. If you need both, then you find one of the 2-3 shocklands that you have in your deck.
In short- modern manabase is not reliant on shockland. It makes their deck much more consistent, but really it's the fetches that give them the consistency.
You don't have fetchlands in standard, and so every shockland you play has to be played with the knowledge that it will zap you hard and that you may or may not get the mana you need if you play a deck that plays more than 2 colors.
Honestly, I wouldn't see the need to run anymore than 2-3 of any given shockland in lieu of the basic you would normally run. The shocklands make the M10 duals even more consistent, and I'd rely on them cause they don't shock you.
They activate all of the M10 lands and INN lands. For example, Steam Vents in RUG activates my Hinterlands, Sulfur Falls, and Rootbound Crags. Seems to be a worthy 3-4 of.
One thing to keep in mind is that a control deck doesn't mind having its lands come into play tapped as much as a more aggressive one. A lot of your best cards are likely to be at the two mana mark -- Dreadbore, Izzet Charm, Essence Scatter, Desperate Ravings -- and so you can sequence your plays like this:
Turn 1 tapped shockland
Turn 2 non-shock land (two mana open)
Turn 3 tapped shockland (two mana open)
Turn 4 non-shock land (four mana open for Snapcasting one of those two-drops)
And you end up having the mana you need without ever needing to pay the 2 life. Obviously sometimes you'll draw the all-shock hand and you'll need to take some damage (and the fact that you have that option makes them better than simple taplands), or maybe you've got a turn 1 or turn 3 play and you have to do it a bit differently but you can often avoid a lot of pain with smart play, even with a 50% shockland manabase.
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One thing to keep in mind is that a control deck doesn't mind having its lands come into play tapped as much as a more aggressive one.
Exactly. Playing a turn 1 shockland tapped really isn't a big deal for most control decks as they most likely wouldn't be making a play anyways. Similarly on later turns where they aren't expecting to need access to all of their mana they can play them tapped as well. If you're an aggro deck on the otherhand you pretty much will always play the first couple of shocks untapped so you can curve out.
Ok so after RtR i will get UR and RB shocklands to play in my Grixis Control.
What do you guys think, after release price will go up or down? Is it worth to get those shocklands now?
They are likely to go up briefly right at release and then begin to decline substantially.
An absolute TON of this set is going to be opened, and with shocks at Rare, there will be tons more in circulation.
Specifically, expect Hallowed Fountain, Blood Crypt, and Breeding Pool (GTC) to come down the most, since those are the ones of which the fewest were opened the first time around.
All of that said, I wouldn't anticipate them going too far under $8-10. As always, the blue ones will probably be the most expensive.
I think that depends heavily on what's good in Standard. Blue doesn't really dominate Modern right now, and Legacy doesn't care about shocks.
For the most part you're right here. I guess I'm just leaning on historical precedence and my memories of the first time around on that statement about the blue lands.
I think i"ll play 12 checklands and 10 shocklands in my grixis control. then honestly i might even throw in one of each gate just because. But probably not. I'll see how fast the grixis needs to be. If there is some lifegain in black that is noteable then shocklands won't be that bad. Red and blue will never really have good lifegain.
I think i"ll play 12 checklands and 10 shocklands in my grixis control. then honestly i might even throw in one of each gate just because. But probably not. I'll see how fast the grixis needs to be. If there is some lifegain in black that is noteable then shocklands won't be that bad. Red and blue will never really have good lifegain.
Shocklands are just better than the gates currently. There is no reason to play a gate over a shockland unless they print somthing alot better than Gatecreeper Vine.
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Currently Playing:
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I've been playing control with nothing at the 1 CMC slot in the last season assuming I do something similar it could be very common to play the first turn shock tapped to set up later plays, but there will be times when one has to pay, because you need the mana that turn, and then having a lot of shocks will hurt...
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
I've been playing control with nothing at the 1 CMC slot in the last season assuming I do something similar it could be very common to play the first turn shock tapped to set up later plays, but there will be times when one has to pay, because you need the mana that turn, and then having a lot of shocks will hurt...
You're approaching this thought process wrong, though.
While yes, the life loss can add up, it rarely hurts more than playing a cipt land when you need mana does. There is nothing more disheartening than being one mana short of a critical spell for a turn and only having a tapped land. The fact that they are mega-enablers for the check land is just gravy on top.
Keep in mind that back during CHK/RAV we also had things like Sakura Tribe-Elder... so in many 3-4 color decks it was a pretty heavy Green base so we could hit those guys and Kodama's Reach. So it wasn't uncommon to splash BASICS more than you would shocklands for stuff like Gifts control. In fact, I seem to remember at one point running one island just for Gifts so I could fetch it early instead of hoping I'd draw a U based shockland. RAV/TSP I didn't play Standard, so I don't remember how we handled things then.
You're approaching this thought process wrong, though.
While yes, the life loss can add up, it rarely hurts more than playing a cipt land when you need mana does. There is nothing more disheartening than being one mana short of a critical spell for a turn and only having a tapped land. The fact that they are mega-enablers for the check land is just gravy on top.
My point about shocks hurting is that you'd probably play more shocks than you would have played scars lands, you'll squeeze your basic numbers for them because they can always come in untapped and they enable the checks, this means that when you need an untapped land late game, when before you had basics now you have shocks...
(I'm think here specifcially about a 3 colour control deck, where previously you would probably have played 12 checks and probably at least 9 basics to enable them leaving room for only 4 or 5 scars lands, now you may play 12 checks, 8 shocks and 5 or 6 basics... Post Gatecrash you'll be tempted to play 12 Shocks... The pain level of this will seriously add up and if you're against something like Black aggro this could be a serious issue)
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I'm a control player, because I like to reserve the right to say no.
So, is there any chance that Liliana of the Dark Realms goes nutty in a 4 to 5 color control deck? Utilizing all of the different swamp duals along with her to make a stable mana base? Seems like it could be interesting.
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Standard Decks:
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
So, is there any chance that Liliana of the Dark Realms goes nutty in a 4 to 5 color control deck? Utilizing all of the different swamp duals along with her to make a stable mana base? Seems like it could be interesting.
I don't really see a deck being built around a planeswalker's +1 ability is the thing. And if you just go with a generic B/xxx 4 color control deck and play Liliana... the only ability worth it on her is her +1. At that point you are probably better playing mana accel like Farseek or that new Chromatic artifact that fixes mana.
Edit: What I do see potentially happening is maybe 2-3 color control where you splash the other two colors... with black being the main color. Think mono black control right now... but with like a red and/or green splash for a few cards and you just play the 8 shocks and use Liliana to help mana fix in that regard.
Shocklands are good in control because they give you options options is very very viable. A large portion of your shocklands will come into play tapped dependent upon the deck your playing against/mana needed. I highly doubt i want to run all possible shocks but the sheer fact that 1 shock for grixis in play can mean the entire dual land package from Inn/m13 etb untapped is completely worth it. But if you overload on shocks you will pay for it and most likely lose a subsequent amount of matches to aggro because of it.
Onto liliana of the dark realms im not so sure shes gonna be all that and a bag of chips with chromatic latern being printed. Its just much better at fixing in all possible forms and will probably not have MD hate as broad in comparison(with dreadbore being printed large populace, myself included, will be running that to test asap.) it accelerates/fixes/comes down a whole turn earlier just seems very reliable but can't be completely dependent upon either when building a deck.
Im actually interested to see if anyone has thought of doing a 4-5 cc deck with latern and mutilate as its main wipe and looking at their lists idk if its gonna be possible until GTC for the other duals though. Wrong thread most likely but idk where else to post really.
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How many shocklands did control play at that time when it was 3 - colored control? Full amount or less?
I am thinking of building Grixis control in new standard, and cant decide how many shocklands i should run. Ideal would be 8 before 2nd expansion, but wont it hurt me too much - Grixis tends to play a lot of low-costed answers/draws, thats why i loved scars duals.
Sorry for my english - i am not native speaker.
In short- modern manabase is not reliant on shockland. It makes their deck much more consistent, but really it's the fetches that give them the consistency.
You don't have fetchlands in standard, and so every shockland you play has to be played with the knowledge that it will zap you hard and that you may or may not get the mana you need if you play a deck that plays more than 2 colors.
Honestly, I wouldn't see the need to run anymore than 2-3 of any given shockland in lieu of the basic you would normally run. The shocklands make the M10 duals even more consistent, and I'd rely on them cause they don't shock you.
They will be run as a 4-of in any dual colored deck. Last time they were in standard, all 2 color deck manabases started with 4 shocks and 4 painlands.
Fetchlands make these lands very good, but they are not the only reason why people run them. Also, why are you bringing up fetchlands anyhow? This is a standard forum.
They activate all of the M10 lands and INN lands. For example, Steam Vents in RUG activates my Hinterlands, Sulfur Falls, and Rootbound Crags. Seems to be a worthy 3-4 of.
Turn 1 tapped shockland
Turn 2 non-shock land (two mana open)
Turn 3 tapped shockland (two mana open)
Turn 4 non-shock land (four mana open for Snapcasting one of those two-drops)
And you end up having the mana you need without ever needing to pay the 2 life. Obviously sometimes you'll draw the all-shock hand and you'll need to take some damage (and the fact that you have that option makes them better than simple taplands), or maybe you've got a turn 1 or turn 3 play and you have to do it a bit differently but you can often avoid a lot of pain with smart play, even with a 50% shockland manabase.
What do you guys think, after release price will go up or down? Is it worth to get those shocklands now?
Exactly. Playing a turn 1 shockland tapped really isn't a big deal for most control decks as they most likely wouldn't be making a play anyways. Similarly on later turns where they aren't expecting to need access to all of their mana they can play them tapped as well. If you're an aggro deck on the otherhand you pretty much will always play the first couple of shocks untapped so you can curve out.
They are likely to go up briefly right at release and then begin to decline substantially.
An absolute TON of this set is going to be opened, and with shocks at Rare, there will be tons more in circulation.
Specifically, expect Hallowed Fountain, Blood Crypt, and Breeding Pool (GTC) to come down the most, since those are the ones of which the fewest were opened the first time around.
All of that said, I wouldn't anticipate them going too far under $8-10. As always, the blue ones will probably be the most expensive.
For the most part you're right here. I guess I'm just leaning on historical precedence and my memories of the first time around on that statement about the blue lands.
Shocklands are just better than the gates currently. There is no reason to play a gate over a shockland unless they print somthing alot better than Gatecreeper Vine.
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I miss casting Snapcaster Mage + Rampant Growth
And the aggressive decks don't mind taking two to have an untapped land.
You're approaching this thought process wrong, though.
While yes, the life loss can add up, it rarely hurts more than playing a cipt land when you need mana does. There is nothing more disheartening than being one mana short of a critical spell for a turn and only having a tapped land. The fact that they are mega-enablers for the check land is just gravy on top.
(I'm think here specifcially about a 3 colour control deck, where previously you would probably have played 12 checks and probably at least 9 basics to enable them leaving room for only 4 or 5 scars lands, now you may play 12 checks, 8 shocks and 5 or 6 basics... Post Gatecrash you'll be tempted to play 12 Shocks... The pain level of this will seriously add up and if you're against something like Black aggro this could be a serious issue)
:symw::symw:W/u Humans (No Geist!):symw::symu:
Record: 22-3-0
I don't really see a deck being built around a planeswalker's +1 ability is the thing. And if you just go with a generic B/xxx 4 color control deck and play Liliana... the only ability worth it on her is her +1. At that point you are probably better playing mana accel like Farseek or that new Chromatic artifact that fixes mana.
Edit: What I do see potentially happening is maybe 2-3 color control where you splash the other two colors... with black being the main color. Think mono black control right now... but with like a red and/or green splash for a few cards and you just play the 8 shocks and use Liliana to help mana fix in that regard.
Onto liliana of the dark realms im not so sure shes gonna be all that and a bag of chips with chromatic latern being printed. Its just much better at fixing in all possible forms and will probably not have MD hate as broad in comparison(with dreadbore being printed large populace, myself included, will be running that to test asap.) it accelerates/fixes/comes down a whole turn earlier just seems very reliable but can't be completely dependent upon either when building a deck.
Im actually interested to see if anyone has thought of doing a 4-5 cc deck with latern and mutilate as its main wipe and looking at their lists idk if its gonna be possible until GTC for the other duals though. Wrong thread most likely but idk where else to post really.