No it wasn't directed at anyone specifically but we had a few really solid guys posting lists, testing and running good results and great feed back on their lists and difference quirks and so on. We posted a lot of testing and tournament results but now we have a lot of people preaching some in my opinion no better than poor beliefs and decks.
I think it's simple Zombies is an extremely aggressive deck, it's supposed to curve extremely tight and be very explosive and never lose his head start and momentum because of it's resiliency and tempo. The slow cards aren't even optional if we are talking "competitive".
I built this deck from the ground up myself, I first focused on the 12 card Zombie package that seemed so good which is Geralf's Messenger , Gravecrawler and Diregraf Ghoul From there I tried every considerable approach. I tried Blue Black and Red Black, even Mono Black. I tried Mortapods, Mana Leaks, Skinrenders, Snapcaster Mages, Swords, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Brimstone Volley, Tragic Slip, Black Sun's Zenith, Liliana, Lashwrithe, Adaptive Automaton, Arc Trails, Gut Shots, Galvanic Blasts, you name it.
I really feel like I have my list chiseled out of stone at this point, I do expect to keep up it's an incredible results for me and I am so excited for the Zombies the next set may bring, hopefully a nice 2drop
Have you changed your list at all after this weekend or done anymore testing online? I admit I ask because your list is buried pages ago and I don't want to go looking for it. I'm hoping to get a better build going for this Friday.
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I don't fear the man who has played 10,000 decks once. I fear the man who played one deck 10,000 times.
Hey guys, I was wondering If I could get your thoughts on my R/U/B Zombie List. I'm trying to run an aggressive build with a Graveyard-fixing angle to give me access to Headless Skaab and Stitched Drake. Anyway, here's the list. Note that this list is not optimized, as in I'm still missing some cards, Nonbasic Lands primarily.
Like I said, the manabase in particular and the deck in general are very much a work in progress. Now, let me explain some of my card choices and outline some of the concerns I have.
GRAVEYARD-FIXING PACKAGE:
This is one of the unique points of the deck, and does a few different things here. It allows for easier use of Headless Skaab and Stitched Drake (although Headless Skaab's position is precarious right now). It helps dig through the deck to find Gravecrawlers, which I think is one of the best points of this engine. It also gets creatures for Havengul Lich. While we're on that topic...
HAVENGUL LICH:
I'm not sure how I feel about this guy. He's expensive, slow, and dies to removal. But his effect is really badass. It's possible I'm too attached to him. I'd like some opinions on his place in the deck.
[CARD]
HELLRIDER[/CARD]:
He probably seems like an odd choice, but I like him for one main reason: he can pull wins from places your opponent wasn't expecting. He's great at exploiting short-term openings in your opponent's defense.
CHANGES IN PROGRESS:
Need to increase Gravecrawler count and Fix mana base.
I think a list without 4 gravecrawler and zero geralf's messenger shouldn't be taken seriously. Also you have way too many Skaab's which is going to screw you up with Gravecrawler. Too many creatures that are conditional to bring out. Not to be mean but your list seems all over the place.
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I don't fear the man who has played 10,000 decks once. I fear the man who played one deck 10,000 times.
No no, that's exactly the sort of criticism I need. And I agree that the list lacks focus right now. I'm just not quite sure how to fix that. Also, the main reason I'm not running Messenger is because It feels really untenable to have BBB early enough for him to be useful in a three-color deck.
That is just the thing though. Three Color Zombies isn't viable because the Messenger is just so key right now. It's essentially either splash blue, splash red, or I have even seen a pretty cool green splash that looked pretty cool.
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Currently Playing:
Standard: GWBSomething dont really care any more.
Legacy: GWBNic Fit WBDeadguy Ale
EDH: GWB Karador, Ghost Chieftain RUGRiku, of the Twin Reflections UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
Just an FYI, testing I did over the weekend shows that mortarpod might be the card to break this deck. Here is what it does:
1. Shoots unflipped delver, tokenless stromkirk noble, Snapcaster, grim lavamancer, and mana dorks.
2. Is three mana per point of damage with gravecrawler.
3. The above combo also takes a life when you have diregraf captain out.
4. Combos with captain to kill anything (just fire it off during a combat so you get the deathtouch).
5. Combos with messenger to make it bigger and get a free use.
6. Tragic slip is a super tragic -13/-13 when you fire a critter off the pod first.
7. Fits in that nice 2 drop void.
While I am sticking U/B for now (since Havengul Lich has won a long game or two recycling awesome guys, and diregraf captain is the best lord right now) B/R has some alure from the burn.
Still, zombies backed by a few cheap counters (mana leak, negate, ect.) rolls a lot of decks, being delver like tempo, with awesome resilience. Biggest issue is if cage starts to get played, but you might be able to stop it with mental misstep or steel sabotage.
Just an FYI, testing I did over the weekend shows that mortarpod might be the card to break this deck. Here is what it does:
1. Shoots unflipped delver, tokenless stromkirk noble, Snapcaster, grim lavamancer, and mana dorks.
2. Is three mana per point of damage with gravecrawler.
3. The above combo also takes a life when you have diregraf captain out.
4. Combos with captain to kill anything (just fire it off during a combat so you get the deathtouch).
5. Combos with messenger to make it bigger and get a free use.
6. Tragic slip is a super tragic -13/-13 when you fire a critter off the pod first.
7. Fits in that nice 2 drop void.
While I am sticking U/B for now (since Havengul Lich has won a long game or two recycling awesome guys, and diregraf captain is the best lord right now) B/R has some alure from the burn.
Still, zombies backed by a few cheap counters (mana leak, negate, ect.) rolls a lot of decks, being delver like tempo, with awesome resilience. Biggest issue is if cage starts to get played, but you might be able to stop it with mental misstep or steel sabotage.
Attaboy, I knew someone other than me would come around on this card
Ran this at FNM, went 3-1 but that includes a 2nd round bye. It's been a few days so details are fading a bit.
Round 1: my literal nightmare for this deck was Mirran Crusader. Game 1, I steamroll him though he did eventually get Angelic Destiny on a Loyal Cathar. Game 2, t3 Crusader, t4 Crusader. Game 3, Crusader, I answer with Legionnaire, he O rings it and plays another Crusader, Messenger and Obliterator in my hand and I don't draw a 3rd land until the turn I die (with 2 lands opening hand). Whatever.
Round 2: bye.
Round 3: Delver/Stalker/Geist/Swords with I think the only new stuff being Lingering Souls. It was a little off from the mainstream decks but it went to 3 games. Messenger was a champ, he undied, I BSZ for 2 to wipe his board and get rid of the +1/+1 counter, then he undies again on a block. Final game I had 2 Messengers, attacked for lethal, he had to Vapor Snag both, so I replayed and then used Ratchet Bomb to kill them, killing him.
Round 4: GR Wolf Run, ran Strangleroot Geist. Game 1, blow him out before he gets to 6 mana. Game 2, get him to 13 and he drops t4 Inferno Titan. I cast Act of Aggression and kill him.
Pretty happy overall. It probably looks pretty janky, I tested a lot of the 1-ofs just to see how I liked them and/or for versatility. Only 3 real matches, but the fact that I only lost to multiple Mirran Crusaders is nice.
I'm pretty committed to Mono right now, I want to use Obliterator and Lashwrithe. Any questions or suggestions?
Messenger, nice body & efects for BBB cost, u know its good
Gravecrawler, 2/1 x B, and u can play him from graveyard
Skirge, it work as 1 or 2 turn creature, flying plus lifelink its a good combo
Phyrexian crusader, first strike, infect, prot from W & R, u want more?
Obliterator, cost BBBB, but its a powerfull Threat on the field
Ghets veredict, instant sac effect
Lashwrithe, a big bad germ, and attached to a Obliterator or crusader or Skirge its a powerfull equip
Gambits, draw cards and you can proliferate, poison and a Messenger with a +1/+1 counter on it
Distress, BASIC hand control (missing new B cmc hand removal)
GftT & DB, BASIC spot removal
Now im rather new to zombie tribal (i play zombie tokens) i want to make zombie tribal for my FNM but some ideas i see here i dont understand
i may get flamed for asking here but
1. why is there so much emphasis on 4 gerlafs messenger? i can understand 1 or 2 but doesnt gravecrawler do a better job?
2.wouldnt we want to run 2 or 3 reapers with 2 or 3 captians?
3. why not use wake dancer?
4. if we are trying to fill our graveyard why not zombie infestation, moan of the unhallowed army of the damned (expensive but wins games) or zombie apacolpyse?
5.right now im using an engine (kind of) that sacks 1 droppers (diregraf, gravecrawler) and others like black cat with altars reap to draw than use zombie infestation to maintain a field presnece and kind of use flashback
You want the 4 messengers because yes they are that awesome. The Captains are a better lord than the Reapers. Gravecrawler is awesome and you want one in your opening hand 100% of the time but the messenger is just stupid good as well.
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I don't fear the man who has played 10,000 decks once. I fear the man who played one deck 10,000 times.
I'm wondering if there isn't a way to get the Captain in the deck along with the brimstone volleys and still have enough untapped black on turn 1 for our one drops, and 3 untapped black on turn 3 for our messengers. Not a true three color deck - black with a touch of blue and a touch of red.
I don't know if this would perform as well as the B/u or B/r lists, but I would want to try something mono-black. The idea behind this deck is tempo, removal and resource depletion.
Now im rather new to zombie tribal (i play zombie tokens) i want to make zombie tribal for my FNM but some ideas i see here i dont understand
i may get flamed for asking here but
1. why is there so much emphasis on 4 gerlafs messenger? i can understand 1 or 2 but doesnt gravecrawler do a better job?
2.wouldnt we want to run 2 or 3 reapers with 2 or 3 captians?
3. why not use wake dancer?
4. if we are trying to fill our graveyard why not zombie infestation, moan of the unhallowed army of the damned (expensive but wins games) or zombie apacolpyse?
5.right now im using an engine (kind of) that sacks 1 droppers (diregraf, gravecrawler) and others like black cat with altars reap to draw than use zombie infestation to maintain a field presnece and kind of use flashback
1. Geralf's Messanger is potentially the most mana efficient creature in standard.
No wait I lie. Geist of Saint traft is, by a long shot.
But at Geralf's full potential, he is 4 life loss and a 3 power and 4 power creature.
For a 3 mana investment, thats, insane.
2. Captains are a gajillion times better then Reaper. Reaper is the worst lord in standard.
3. Wakedancer with 100% morbid is worse then Blade splicer. Think about that, then get back to me.
4. We arent.
5. I can see why you dont understand your own strategy, its unfocused.
It is trying to force synergy and interaction with a bunch of sub par cards.
I'm wondering if there isn't a way to get the Captain in the deck along with the brimstone volleys and still have enough untapped black on turn 1 for our one drops, and 3 untapped black on turn 3 for our messengers. Not a true three color deck - black with a touch of blue and a touch of red.
Well there are 8 duals for both blue and red.
Plus 8 swamps is 24. (around the ammount of lands you want)
how crucial are 4x darkslick shores in u/b version? kinda pricy
Not essential, my deck since I am planning on trying to be cheap with my tax return and buy a pair of Darkslicks I have 13 Swamp, 4 Drowned, 3 Darkslick and 3 island and so far in the bit of testing I have started doing the mana base is smooth as butta. Just see if you could trade for them before you buy them, they will only go up more after this.
Oh and Gravecrawler...I LOVE them using Gut Shot to kill when I declare, then recast before end of turn. "Wait, he died?" "uh, I can recast long as I have other zombies."
Also, got the Lich/Heartless/PriestUrabrask/PerilousMyr combo used on me...ugh..
im kind of trying to build a nice deck with the fun sinergy between gravecrawler and burning vengeance.... want to use as a 2 drop "dross hoper"... i know is an horrible card, but is the cheapest sacrifice outlet.... wanted to use falkenrath torturer but is kind of the same for 1 more..... idk tell me what you think, make me change my mind
I don't know if this would perform as well as the B/u or B/r lists, but I would want to try something mono-black. The idea behind this deck is tempo, removal and resource
I'm running mono black as well and enjoying the consistency as well as the advantages of lashwrithe.
It has been pretty consistent for me and does well against the usual delver, wolfrun, rdw etc. Major problem i am facing is mirran crusader with angelic destiny, but a timely verdict helps.
3 Cemetery Reaper
3 Diregraf Captain
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Gravecrawler
2 Hex Parasite
2 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
4 Mana Leak
4 Tragic Slip
4 Vapor Snag
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Island
12 Swamp
3 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Dissipate
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Hex Parasite
3 Unbreathing Horde
Have you changed your list at all after this weekend or done anymore testing online? I admit I ask because your list is buried pages ago and I don't want to go looking for it. I'm hoping to get a better build going for this Friday.
3 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
3 Screeching Skaab
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Diregraf Captian
3 Headless Skaab
3 Stitched Drake
2 Hellrider
2 Havengul Lich
4 Faithless Looting
3 Mana Leak
2 Doom Blade
3 Forbidden Alchemy
Lands: 23
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Drowned Catacombs
6 Island
5 Swamp
5 Mountain
Like I said, the manabase in particular and the deck in general are very much a work in progress. Now, let me explain some of my card choices and outline some of the concerns I have.
GRAVEYARD-FIXING PACKAGE:
This is one of the unique points of the deck, and does a few different things here. It allows for easier use of Headless Skaab and Stitched Drake (although Headless Skaab's position is precarious right now). It helps dig through the deck to find Gravecrawlers, which I think is one of the best points of this engine. It also gets creatures for Havengul Lich. While we're on that topic...
HAVENGUL LICH:
I'm not sure how I feel about this guy. He's expensive, slow, and dies to removal. But his effect is really badass. It's possible I'm too attached to him. I'd like some opinions on his place in the deck.
[CARD]
HELLRIDER[/CARD]:
He probably seems like an odd choice, but I like him for one main reason: he can pull wins from places your opponent wasn't expecting. He's great at exploiting short-term openings in your opponent's defense.
CHANGES IN PROGRESS:
Need to increase Gravecrawler count and Fix mana base.
So, what do you guys think? Any opinions?
Standard:
GWBSomething dont really care any more.
Legacy:
GWBNic Fit
WBDeadguy Ale
EDH:
GWB Karador, Ghost Chieftain
RUGRiku, of the Twin Reflections
UR Melek, Izzet Paragon
Artwork by Bornnover of Hakai Studios
That's what Magic is about, after all. A game of poker. With dragons.
Trade Thread http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8732945#post8732945
1. Shoots unflipped delver, tokenless stromkirk noble, Snapcaster, grim lavamancer, and mana dorks.
2. Is three mana per point of damage with gravecrawler.
3. The above combo also takes a life when you have diregraf captain out.
4. Combos with captain to kill anything (just fire it off during a combat so you get the deathtouch).
5. Combos with messenger to make it bigger and get a free use.
6. Tragic slip is a super tragic -13/-13 when you fire a critter off the pod first.
7. Fits in that nice 2 drop void.
While I am sticking U/B for now (since Havengul Lich has won a long game or two recycling awesome guys, and diregraf captain is the best lord right now) B/R has some alure from the burn.
Still, zombies backed by a few cheap counters (mana leak, negate, ect.) rolls a lot of decks, being delver like tempo, with awesome resilience. Biggest issue is if cage starts to get played, but you might be able to stop it with mental misstep or steel sabotage.
Attaboy, I knew someone other than me would come around on this card
2 card combo... that needs a third in play to work...
Invests 3 mana at sorcery speed to do 1 damage.
DAMN.
THATS BROKEN.
Youd only need like... 60 mana to kill someone.
Thats some efficiency.
Unless you have a lord out...
Then it only takes 30 mana!
Holy god thats crazy!
Sorry to burst your bubble chap, but that is only some decent synergy.
Nothing there to break anything.
Dont get me wrong.
A ton of good synergy put together can make a good deck.
Thats what most tribal decks are.
But broken? Hardly.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Vault Skirge
1 Porcelain Legionnaire
1 Highborn Ghoul
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Metamporh
1 Cemetery Reaper
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Sorin's Thirst
1 Go For The Throat
1 Tragic Slip
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Lashwrithe
Lands: 24
24 Swamp
2 Act of Aggression
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Corrosive Gale
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Mortarpod
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Doom Blade
2 Mimic Vat
2 Porcelain Legionnaire
Ran this at FNM, went 3-1 but that includes a 2nd round bye. It's been a few days so details are fading a bit.
Round 1: my literal nightmare for this deck was Mirran Crusader. Game 1, I steamroll him though he did eventually get Angelic Destiny on a Loyal Cathar. Game 2, t3 Crusader, t4 Crusader. Game 3, Crusader, I answer with Legionnaire, he O rings it and plays another Crusader, Messenger and Obliterator in my hand and I don't draw a 3rd land until the turn I die (with 2 lands opening hand). Whatever.
Round 2: bye.
Round 3: Delver/Stalker/Geist/Swords with I think the only new stuff being Lingering Souls. It was a little off from the mainstream decks but it went to 3 games. Messenger was a champ, he undied, I BSZ for 2 to wipe his board and get rid of the +1/+1 counter, then he undies again on a block. Final game I had 2 Messengers, attacked for lethal, he had to Vapor Snag both, so I replayed and then used Ratchet Bomb to kill them, killing him.
Round 4: GR Wolf Run, ran Strangleroot Geist. Game 1, blow him out before he gets to 6 mana. Game 2, get him to 13 and he drops t4 Inferno Titan. I cast Act of Aggression and kill him.
Pretty happy overall. It probably looks pretty janky, I tested a lot of the 1-ofs just to see how I liked them and/or for versatility. Only 3 real matches, but the fact that I only lost to multiple Mirran Crusaders is nice.
I'm pretty committed to Mono right now, I want to use Obliterator and Lashwrithe. Any questions or suggestions?
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Gravecrawler
4 Vault Skirge
4 Phyrexian Crusader
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Geth's Verdict
3 Lashwrithe
3 Tezeret's Gambit
3 Distress
2 Go for the Throat
2 Doom Blade
3 Inkmoth Nexus
21 Swamp
Thanks for any advise in MD & SB
Now I have time to explain the deck list
Messenger, nice body & efects for BBB cost, u know its good
Gravecrawler, 2/1 x B, and u can play him from graveyard
Skirge, it work as 1 or 2 turn creature, flying plus lifelink its a good combo
Phyrexian crusader, first strike, infect, prot from W & R, u want more?
Obliterator, cost BBBB, but its a powerfull Threat on the field
Ghets veredict, instant sac effect
Lashwrithe, a big bad germ, and attached to a Obliterator or crusader or Skirge its a powerfull equip
Gambits, draw cards and you can proliferate, poison and a Messenger with a +1/+1 counter on it
Distress, BASIC hand control (missing new B cmc hand removal)
GftT & DB, BASIC spot removal
i may get flamed for asking here but
1. why is there so much emphasis on 4 gerlafs messenger? i can understand 1 or 2 but doesnt gravecrawler do a better job?
2.wouldnt we want to run 2 or 3 reapers with 2 or 3 captians?
3. why not use wake dancer?
4. if we are trying to fill our graveyard why not zombie infestation, moan of the unhallowed army of the damned (expensive but wins games) or zombie apacolpyse?
5.right now im using an engine (kind of) that sacks 1 droppers (diregraf, gravecrawler) and others like black cat with altars reap to draw than use zombie infestation to maintain a field presnece and kind of use flashback
Parallel Lives Abuse
Zombie tokens in action
4 Gravecrawler
2 Black Cat
4 Geralf's Messenger
3 Cemetery Reaper
2 Lashwrithe
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Distress
3 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
3 Tragic Slip
3 Geth's Verdict
1. Geralf's Messanger is potentially the most mana efficient creature in standard.
No wait I lie.
Geist of Saint traft is, by a long shot.
But at Geralf's full potential, he is 4 life loss and a 3 power and 4 power creature.
For a 3 mana investment, thats, insane.
2. Captains are a gajillion times better then Reaper. Reaper is the worst lord in standard.
3. Wakedancer with 100% morbid is worse then Blade splicer. Think about that, then get back to me.
4. We arent.
5. I can see why you dont understand your own strategy, its unfocused.
It is trying to force synergy and interaction with a bunch of sub par cards.
Well there are 8 duals for both blue and red.
Plus 8 swamps is 24. (around the ammount of lands you want)
Sounds risky to me tho.
Double post merged, infraction issued. - Madding
Not essential, my deck since I am planning on trying to be cheap with my tax return and buy a pair of Darkslicks I have 13 Swamp, 4 Drowned, 3 Darkslick and 3 island and so far in the bit of testing I have started doing the mana base is smooth as butta. Just see if you could trade for them before you buy them, they will only go up more after this.
Oh and Gravecrawler...I LOVE them using Gut Shot to kill when I declare, then recast before end of turn. "Wait, he died?" "uh, I can recast long as I have other zombies."
Also, got the Lich/Heartless/PriestUrabrask/PerilousMyr combo used on me...ugh..
Standard
WBGWBGABZAN AGGROWBGWBG
I'm running mono black as well and enjoying the consistency as well as the advantages of lashwrithe.
24 Swamp
Creatures:
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
2 Cemetery Reaper
4 Geralf's Messenger
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tragic Slip
2 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Geth's Verdict
2 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lashwrithe
2 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tumble Magnet
3 Spellskite
3 Nihil Spellbomb
It has been pretty consistent for me and does well against the usual delver, wolfrun, rdw etc. Major problem i am facing is mirran crusader with angelic destiny, but a timely verdict helps.
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Obliterators arent essential.
I think they are amazing, but you can run other things.
If youre going u/b for example: Phyrexian Metamorph.
Clones on Captains and Geralfs are some good.