I really like the idea of trolling people with this deck, but I think the best shell for it is actually Turbo-Fog. You need a way to win that isn't a concession, and just milling them out with a Jace + Rites of Flourishing actually makes a lot of sense once you get the lock down.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
I really like the idea of trolling people with this deck, but I think the best shell for it is actually Turbo-Fog. You need a way to win that isn't a concession, and just milling them out with a Jace + Rites of Flourishing actually makes a lot of sense once you get the lock down.
Pristine Talisman may have a home in the deck over Moonmist, and of course Timely Reinforcements goes into the board.
There are a lot of much less demanding ways to win than milling your opponent in this shell. Milling and fogging takes up way too much slots in your deck, and without having the lock is never going to get there. If you want to mill your opponent, youd be better play straight mill than combo-mill, as the combo is a straight win without milling... These are very opposite directions for your deck to be taking.
**edit.... Milling also lets them get closer to the only outs they can possibly have for the combo, which is a flashbacked grudge or ray of revelation.
milling ten cards a turn when they have been locked down for 1-2 doesn't worry me too much about losing my lock.
Honestly i would be much more worried about wolfrun winning due to infect damage over them possibly using grudge and still only able to play one spell a turn.
even with the ability to do iether of those, Iam still able to fog to the win via snap caster and actually playing fogs.
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Standard RWGNaya AggroGWR UBZombiesUB BBBFNM Mono-Black ControlBBB
Unfortunately, the perfect curve in :symw::symu::symb: tutors for the combo in the wrong order, and just a bit late. Shame, if the two creatures were flipped on the curve, the combo would practically assemble itself.
Sounds like a solid lock for stnadard. I would go ahead with a UBW Curse shell, already banked on the Exhaustion as a notch on the noose after a Curse of Misfortunes. Sphere of the Suns seems like it needs to be included for the turn three BSZ for 2 or DoJ.
As far as win cons I would just have two Drownyards as a mill option and let the rest be Curse of Thirst and let the damage pile up over 7 or so turns.
Good idea and thanks, though I feel aweful for giving away my Foil Knowledge Pool now, at least I know it was something that owuld be loved.
Sideboard will have Timely, of course. I feel the mana base is a bit weak, but I wanted a good wincon in the mana base in case by some bizarre event you get locked out, or they deal with your creature threats. Sun Titan can bring back any downed lands. Quarters are a necessary evil against the ramp decks, unfortunately.
Wishing had better reports but a buddy of mine with my deck list has played a total of 18you games in the last 24 hours with it and not a single match the shell is the wgu turbo fog shell.
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Standard RWGNaya AggroGWR UBZombiesUB BBBFNM Mono-Black ControlBBB
Wishing had better reports but a buddy of mine with my deck list has played a total of 18you games in the last 24 hours with it and not a single match the shell is the wgu turbo fog shell.
What does that even mean? Speak english man!
That said, I think this combo is interesting. The curse is a fine card on it's own in a W(x)(x) control shell, however the pool is not. If you play Treasure mage, then you can play pool as a 1-of, and play other 6+ mana cost artifact, namely Wurmcoil engine(vs. aggro and Steel Hellkite(vs. control). Then fill other slots with counter magic and sweepers and card draw, and you have a deck. Splashing black for tutors seems ok, but may not be necessary.
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Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
Here are a couple of observations about the testing I have done.
First and foremost, this deck is very flexible. What I mean by that is that you can tune it for game 1 based on the meta prediction. I have been running both a control version and a turbo fog version.
The control version is slow but consistently controls the board and game state until the lock can bee assembled. The plus here is that you can drop the curse early to keep the spells your opponent can play to a minimum. I highly recommend Pristine Talisman and BSZ. I have been running an esper shell with the only white cards, main deck, being 3 o-ring and 3 CoE.
The Fof version is really fun but is meant for an aggro infested meta. It is easy to keep a creature oriented deck under control with 10 fogs and 3 snapcasters. The rite of flourishings allow you to ramp to 10-15 mana no problem and drop the CoE and KP in the same turn post day of judgement. You win with Jace or attacking but Jace mostly. The biggest issues with fog style is RDW, they can burn you out really fast with the draws that rite gives them. Control is an issue for obvious reasons, there are 10 dead cards game 1.
Overall, this combo is extremely viable and should not be taken lightly. I would stick with the control version since I think it is a a little more flexible post board and has better matchups game 1. Once I refine my lists a little more I will post.
PS - Stay away from treasure mage and other tutoring. They are not needed. You will get the lock eventually through drawing and dragging the game out.
PS - Stay away from treasure mage and other tutoring. They are not needed. You will get the lock eventually through drawing and dragging the game out.
I disagree with staying away from it entirely, especially in Architect variants and more aggro/tempo-oriented builds. That said, I understand that your post also indicated that the builds you had been testing were control and turbofog. I just wasn't sure whether you meant staying away from the mage entirely or just for those builds. In the cases of those specific builds you mentioned, I agree with your points.
Also, I'm going to add the decklists of others into the primer. I'll be taking off bant midrange and tempered steel from the archetypes list, as those decks seem less viable the more I think about it, as well as the fact that nobody is discussing it. They'll be up soon.
I dislike Auramancer in this list. Its not that its ability isn't useful, its just a pretty suboptimal card in general. With the lock out, the CoE will never hit the graveyard (unless they fb Ray of Revelation), and the decks that Curse of Death's Hold is good against often have no answer, aside from the occasional bounce or Beast Within.
Also, the primer's been updated with a bunch of decklists. Check it out!
If you could make a version that could ramp to 9 mana by turn 5 or 6, sure. Well, ramp that high and not die. Then just Gwave for 6 and hope to get lucky I guess
Anybody get any good testing in yet? I wanna know how some of these lists, particularly the U/W control lists are matching up against B/W tokens and U/W tempo.
As an aside, how about calling the Deck "Pool of Hard Locks"... haha.
Was testing the tempo oriented build today. I have to say, it does feel a little clunky in those decks with such a low land count. I think that tweaks made to that version will involve the removal of some number of treasure mage, but not all. As for the control lists, I'll be making my own take and testing it sometime this weekend, as im swamped with schooling and stuff during the week
I also like the turbo-fog variant of this deck. I have played a few games, and so far it seems like it is doing pretty well.
With undying and other recurring threats like flashback and zombies from the graveyard, I feel like stalling out people with fogs is working.
The only real problem I can foresee myself is spell decks like RDW or Burning vengeance. Also control seems like a bad mirror matchup for the turbo fog.
I also like the turbo-fog variant of this deck. I have played a few games, and so far it seems like it is doing pretty well.
With undying and other recurring threats like flashback and zombies from the graveyard, I feel like stalling out people with fogs is working.
The only real problem I can foresee myself is spell decks like RDW or Burning vengeance. Also control seems like a bad mirror matchup for the turbo fog.
Perhaps a sideboard full of stuff for control?
Nothing is worse for this deck then another deck that runs the lock. Turn 4 Curse, followed by your opponent cursing you turn 4, and then it feels like a Consecrated sphinx war.
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Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
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Yea, those are MTG Bars. What can I say, I am a dork
Here is what I have been testing. A few things to note:
1. No treasure mage. He is not needed as this is a late game lock and he only has one target.
2. This is actually a UB control shell splashing white for o-ring, CoE, Day of judgement and a single WSZ. WSZ is amazing and is a win condition or an early game delay against faster creature decks. I am not sold on the o-rings yet as they are good answers to problems or Sorin's that slip through but instant speed spot removal may be better, still testing.
3. In my other UB control list I run 2x Curse of Deaths Hold. The card is so good against a majority of the field, I wish I could squeeze it in this deck but am unsure how. I have tried the Curse of thirst package but waiting a turn to fetch usually ends in disaster.
4. Pristine talisman fills our ramp role and some life gain against the super aggressive decks. The card is so good for us all around I may go to 4.
5. The DoJ and The BSZ split is mainly for the fact that I sometimes want a sweeper in my GY to target with Snapcaster.
Other than that, this deck runs fairly smooth and is pretty well tuned for the upcoming known decks. The sideboard is still being worked on but, 3 Grand Abolishers, 3 Nihil spell bombs, 2 Steel Sabotage, 2 Batterskulls, 2 Tribute to Hunger, 3 Grafdigger's Cage. That is what I have been using.
We may want some discard in the main and split it with the counters that we run. Being proactive with this deck is not out of the question yet and drawing a late game "look at target opponents hand" to make sure the cost is clear when you are at 6-9 mana seems pretty good.
My final thought is this, the combo just may not be needed. The reason I say this is that Grand Abolisher and Exhaustion are so good together that you may not need to get to 6 mana to cast KP. When you do get to the hard lock it feels good but also feels win more. Just a small observation that may not mean much but the reason I bring it up is that in my UB list I run Sorin's Vengeance and it usually wins the game on the spot.
Just realized that you can run Totem-Guide Hartebeest to tutor the curse. Definitely going to re-evaluate my list now. Currently working on three shells, depending on the metagame: Bant Turbofog, Esper Control, and Bant Birthing Pod (idea being to run Venser + Stonehorn Dignitary as a secondary lock and Pod + 187s to ensure the lock sticks).
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
White splashing for "just" WW (CoE), WW (Doj), WWW (WSZ)? Splashing may be the wrong term, LOL![/color]
[/COLOR]
Yes by splash I meant 4 different cards. I would like to get it down to just the CoE to ease up on the mana base. GA and Oring are pretty good though...
I'd probably start with something like this:
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Razor Hippogriff
1 Sun Titan
1 Trinket Mage
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Knowledge Pool
3 Curse of Exhaustion
4 Rites of Flourishing
2 Jace, Memory Adept
2 Gideon Jura
2 Moonmist
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Clinging Mists
4 Day of Judgment
Pristine Talisman may have a home in the deck over Moonmist, and of course Timely Reinforcements goes into the board.
There are a lot of much less demanding ways to win than milling your opponent in this shell. Milling and fogging takes up way too much slots in your deck, and without having the lock is never going to get there. If you want to mill your opponent, youd be better play straight mill than combo-mill, as the combo is a straight win without milling... These are very opposite directions for your deck to be taking.
**edit.... Milling also lets them get closer to the only outs they can possibly have for the combo, which is a flashbacked grudge or ray of revelation.
Honestly i would be much more worried about wolfrun winning due to infect damage over them possibly using grudge and still only able to play one spell a turn.
even with the ability to do iether of those, Iam still able to fog to the win via snap caster and actually playing fogs.
RWGNaya AggroGWR
UBZombiesUB
BBBFNM Mono-Black ControlBBB
Turn 3: Treasure Mage (getting Knowledge Pool)
Turn 4: Curse of Exhaustion
Turn 5: Bitterheart Witch (would have tutored for Curse)
Turn 6: Knowledge Pool
"Dies" triggers are harder to manage as well.
Turn 6 Tutor curse of exhaustion, cast knowledge pool
That works, right?
My same thoughts.
Sounds like a solid lock for stnadard. I would go ahead with a UBW Curse shell, already banked on the Exhaustion as a notch on the noose after a Curse of Misfortunes. Sphere of the Suns seems like it needs to be included for the turn three BSZ for 2 or DoJ.
As far as win cons I would just have two Drownyards as a mill option and let the rest be Curse of Thirst and let the damage pile up over 7 or so turns.
Good idea and thanks, though I feel aweful for giving away my Foil Knowledge Pool now, at least I know it was something that owuld be loved.
1 Sun Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
3 Dissipate
4 Day of Judgment
3 Lingering Souls
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Curse of Exhaustion
1 Knowledge Pool
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Drowned Catacomb
4 Island
3 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Nephalia Drownyard
Sideboard will have Timely, of course. I feel the mana base is a bit weak, but I wanted a good wincon in the mana base in case by some bizarre event you get locked out, or they deal with your creature threats. Sun Titan can bring back any downed lands. Quarters are a necessary evil against the ramp decks, unfortunately.
RWGNaya AggroGWR
UBZombiesUB
BBBFNM Mono-Black ControlBBB
What does that even mean? Speak english man!
That said, I think this combo is interesting. The curse is a fine card on it's own in a W(x)(x) control shell, however the pool is not. If you play Treasure mage, then you can play pool as a 1-of, and play other 6+ mana cost artifact, namely Wurmcoil engine(vs. aggro and Steel Hellkite(vs. control). Then fill other slots with counter magic and sweepers and card draw, and you have a deck. Splashing black for tutors seems ok, but may not be necessary.
Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
First and foremost, this deck is very flexible. What I mean by that is that you can tune it for game 1 based on the meta prediction. I have been running both a control version and a turbo fog version.
The control version is slow but consistently controls the board and game state until the lock can bee assembled. The plus here is that you can drop the curse early to keep the spells your opponent can play to a minimum. I highly recommend Pristine Talisman and BSZ. I have been running an esper shell with the only white cards, main deck, being 3 o-ring and 3 CoE.
The Fof version is really fun but is meant for an aggro infested meta. It is easy to keep a creature oriented deck under control with 10 fogs and 3 snapcasters. The rite of flourishings allow you to ramp to 10-15 mana no problem and drop the CoE and KP in the same turn post day of judgement. You win with Jace or attacking but Jace mostly. The biggest issues with fog style is RDW, they can burn you out really fast with the draws that rite gives them. Control is an issue for obvious reasons, there are 10 dead cards game 1.
Overall, this combo is extremely viable and should not be taken lightly. I would stick with the control version since I think it is a a little more flexible post board and has better matchups game 1. Once I refine my lists a little more I will post.
PS - Stay away from treasure mage and other tutoring. They are not needed. You will get the lock eventually through drawing and dragging the game out.
Have fun kids.
I disagree with staying away from it entirely, especially in Architect variants and more aggro/tempo-oriented builds. That said, I understand that your post also indicated that the builds you had been testing were control and turbofog. I just wasn't sure whether you meant staying away from the mage entirely or just for those builds. In the cases of those specific builds you mentioned, I agree with your points.
Also, I'm going to add the decklists of others into the primer. I'll be taking off bant midrange and tempered steel from the archetypes list, as those decks seem less viable the more I think about it, as well as the fact that nobody is discussing it. They'll be up soon.
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
2 Knowledge Pool
2 Curse of Exhaustion
1 Curse of Misfortunes
Draw-
3 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Think Twice
Counters-
4 Mana Leak
3 Dissipate
Removal-
3 Doom Blade
2 Tribute to Hunger
3 Tragic Slip
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Day of Judgment
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Curse of Death's Hold
Creatures-
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Auramancer
Lands-
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Island
3 Swamp
3 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Buried Ruin
I dislike Auramancer in this list. Its not that its ability isn't useful, its just a pretty suboptimal card in general. With the lock out, the CoE will never hit the graveyard (unless they fb Ray of Revelation), and the decks that Curse of Death's Hold is good against often have no answer, aside from the occasional bounce or Beast Within.
Also, the primer's been updated with a bunch of decklists. Check it out!
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
Modern:
My Trade Thread
As an aside, how about calling the Deck "Pool of Hard Locks"... haha.
Mirror match would suck if both get the curse out before someone casts the Pool... lmao.
Just for this scenario...Elspeth would be good for mirror if you can have her stick prior to the lock.
Modern: U Living End
Standard: UW Approach of the Second Sun
With undying and other recurring threats like flashback and zombies from the graveyard, I feel like stalling out people with fogs is working.
The only real problem I can foresee myself is spell decks like RDW or Burning vengeance. Also control seems like a bad mirror matchup for the turbo fog.
Perhaps a sideboard full of stuff for control?
Nothing is worse for this deck then another deck that runs the lock. Turn 4 Curse, followed by your opponent cursing you turn 4, and then it feels like a Consecrated sphinx war.
Tried to pull away, but now I'm Back At it
Love is Emphatic, cards need to be played
Hailing from the BA, accumulating CA"
That being said, here is what I'm brewing up;
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Buried Ruin
11 Island
4 Plains
1 Knowledge Pool
3 Curse of Exhaustion
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Treasure Mage
3 Grand Architect
4 Mana Leak
4 Dissipate
4 Day of Judgment
4 Think Twice
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ratchet Bomb
1. No treasure mage. He is not needed as this is a late game lock and he only has one target.
2. This is actually a UB control shell splashing white for o-ring, CoE, Day of judgement and a single WSZ. WSZ is amazing and is a win condition or an early game delay against faster creature decks. I am not sold on the o-rings yet as they are good answers to problems or Sorin's that slip through but instant speed spot removal may be better, still testing.
3. In my other UB control list I run 2x Curse of Deaths Hold. The card is so good against a majority of the field, I wish I could squeeze it in this deck but am unsure how. I have tried the Curse of thirst package but waiting a turn to fetch usually ends in disaster.
4. Pristine talisman fills our ramp role and some life gain against the super aggressive decks. The card is so good for us all around I may go to 4.
5. The DoJ and The BSZ split is mainly for the fact that I sometimes want a sweeper in my GY to target with Snapcaster.
Other than that, this deck runs fairly smooth and is pretty well tuned for the upcoming known decks. The sideboard is still being worked on but, 3 Grand Abolishers, 3 Nihil spell bombs, 2 Steel Sabotage, 2 Batterskulls, 2 Tribute to Hunger, 3 Grafdigger's Cage. That is what I have been using.
We may want some discard in the main and split it with the counters that we run. Being proactive with this deck is not out of the question yet and drawing a late game "look at target opponents hand" to make sure the cost is clear when you are at 6-9 mana seems pretty good.
My final thought is this, the combo just may not be needed. The reason I say this is that Grand Abolisher and Exhaustion are so good together that you may not need to get to 6 mana to cast KP. When you do get to the hard lock it feels good but also feels win more. Just a small observation that may not mean much but the reason I bring it up is that in my UB list I run Sorin's Vengeance and it usually wins the game on the spot.
Feedback is appreciated.
Have fun with this list.
White splashing for "just" WW (CoE), WW (Doj), WWW (WSZ)? Splashing may be the wrong term, LOL!
You're thinking modern I presume? Hartebeest is no longer in standard.
EDH:▼
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Playing: Designing:
Retired:
Yes by splash I meant 4 different cards. I would like to get it down to just the CoE to ease up on the mana base. GA and Oring are pretty good though...