There's no real incentive to splash, honestly. I mean, what could I throw into the deck that I can't already get in red?
Oblivion Ring, Huntmaster, Thragtusk, Remember the Fallen, Dispatch.. I just see no reason to go monored if you don't have to. Splashing is easy.
My issue with going the Tezz route, which IMO is one the few other viable ways of going about this, is the lack of early game sweepers. Being able to play Whipflare and Slagstorm earlier than Turn 4 is what made me go red in the first place.
The splash can be pretty painless. Solemn, Sphere and Prism all make sense in the deck, and you can drop the Inkmoths for some duals. Tezzeret doesn't have to be a turn 4 play.
patlienemann: Geosurge helps cast everything but the burn, which is very castable already.
So I've noticed in the little testing that this deck has a very large capability just to do nothing. You can dig and recur and ramp and block and sweep as much as you'd like, but the deck may just end up doing absolutely nothing.
Maybe I'm playing it wrong, maybe the list I'm using is worse, but more often than not, I lose because of inertness.
The actual threat count might need to be upped, then. Perhaps some more Batterskulls or Kuldotha Phoenixes?
I think you almost have too many win conditions. I played with an RB metalcraft deck earlier in the season and I was a midrange deck with way fewer win-cons and still did fine. I would suggest cutting it down to:
That does pretty much everything. You have lifegain, card advantage, metalcraft enabler and the phoenix for eating planeswalkers. If you need more life-gain or win conditions, then that is what sideboarding is for; these incremental advantage decks want to go extremely long, so being able to buy back threats and slowly grind them out will work best. You won't beat a proper control deck, but right now, you don't have to.
I really like the wellspring package. From what Michael Jacob has been running in his WB version of the deck, 4 ichor + 2 mycosynth seems to be ideal, supported by pristine taismans. Buried ruins to get back threats is a big game. Trading Post should help here a lot.
The only other thing I would look at adding is a devil's play (additional win-con) and a splash for either certain removal (black) or recurring artifact destruction (green). Neither requires a heavy comittment due to the wellsprings.
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I think shrine of burning rage is a must have for this deck. While you're sitting around it continuously gets bigger, and can also give metalcraft. Additionally it can hit pro-red cards, and is another win con. If not in the main, at least in the side board.
Solemn isn't necessarily a threat, but Engine and Metamorph are, each in their own different way (I dropped Batterskull for personal reasons; I too am interested in building this, and would need to be able to get the cards), so that leaves 7 threats, which is a decent amount considering the dig we have. But I'm doing nothing but durdling for half a game sometimes.
I consider threats to typically be the Wuurmcoil Engines, Batterskulls, and Inkmoth Nexuses. Metamorph is also a threat depending on the matchup. That 9 to 11 threats in the deck which means you should on average see one in your starting hand. However, it's entirely possible that there need to be more.
I'm actually a big fan of Kuldotha Phoenix in this build. Not only does it recur itself without much trickery, it circumvents counterspells. That's big.
the ideal is to make it where you don't just have one way to win but have many other way to win and put the pressure on the Opp.
Using perilous myr and trading post 3 ability to sac a creature and put a artifact back to you hand is really good. block with perilous myr then sac it hit your opp or hit a creature your not blocking and kill it.
spellskite is in to make every spell to go to it. like O-Ring and revoke existence.
i found while testing my deck hellion crucible was really good after i cleared the board of any pesky monster's other then my stuffy doll with blasphemous act.
also a batter skull on a stuffy doll is really really scary to deal with. because if you block stuffy doll you lose life and you lose a creature. while i gain life. and if someone doe's kill stuffy doll or batter skull you can just put it back to your hand from trading post.
that's all i can think of why i put these cards all in the deck.
the ideal is to make it where you don't just have one way to win but have many other way to win and put the pressure on the Opp.
Using perilous myr and trading post 3 ability to sac a creature and put a artifact back to you hand is really good. block with perilous myr then sac it hit your opp or hit a creature your not blocking and kill it.
spellskite is in to make every spell to go to it. like O-Ring and revoke existence.
i found while testing my deck hellion crucible was really good after i cleared the board of any pesky monster's other then my stuffy doll with blasphemous act.
also a batter skull on a stuffy doll is really really scary to deal with. because if you block stuffy doll you lose life and you lose a creature. while i gain life. and if someone doe's kill stuffy doll or batter skull you can just put it back to your hand from trading post.
that's all i can think of why i put these cards all in the deck.
now thats what i'm talking about. very good list you should try it at fnm. whats your sideboard?
Stuffy Doll, Blasphemous Act, and Perilous Myr are some really interesting choices that I'm tempted to use myself now. Totally forgot about all of those cards.
And I still want to get Kuldotha Phoenix in here somewhere.
I really like this deck and I REALLY want to play Trading post, but I've seen success in everything but red and green. U/B Tezz Decks, U/W Decks, Mono U and Mono B.
I'd be really curious to see results, though I may play this friday anyway.
I LOVE Kphoenix builds, I used to play that card like CRAZY with a RG Metalcraft deck. Once it hit's board it's really hard for your Opp to get rid of it. Two on Board? GG.
I do like stuffy doll though also, but I wouldn't run 4 of.
Maybe something like...
This is a list put together in litterally 5 minutes so tear it apart or help it out Mimic Vat though seems to be a nice stop to undying, and I would gladly put some in SB also.
edit: now see if I take out the stuffy dolls that means I take out BActs and that would make room for spellskites or more phoenix, etc...
second edit: would faithless looting help us at all?
I really like this deck and I REALLY want to play Trading post, but I've seen success in everything but red and green. U/B Tezz Decks, U/W Decks, Mono U and Mono B.
I'd be really curious to see results, though I may play this friday anyway.
I LOVE Kphoenix builds, I used to play that card like CRAZY with a RG Metalcraft deck. Once it hit's board it's really hard for your Opp to get rid of it. Two on Board? GG.
I do like stuffy doll though also, but I wouldn't run 4 of.
Maybe something like...
This is a list put together in litterally 5 minutes so tear it apart or help it out Mimic Vat though seems to be a nice stop to undying, and I would gladly put some in SB also.
edit: now see if I take out the stuffy dolls that means I take out BActs and that would make room for spellskites or more phoenix, etc...
second edit: would faithless looting help us at all?
faithless looting might be really good in your deck. you should try it and see how it works for you.
I don't think everyone should discount semblance anvil so quickly. It's card "disadvantage" but only when it sticks, which is really really good for us. Tumble magnet as 3-4 of is a must for me. Gives us a great way to stop fatties which we have a hard time doing otherwise. Wolf run will right run over us, quite literally. Here's my list.
Semblance post
4 ichor wellspring
4 mycosynth wellspring
4 tumble magnet
4 semblance anvil
4 trading post
1 batterskull
2 wurmcoil engine
2 Mindslaver
1 myr battlesphere
2 spine of Ish sah
Sideboard is in flux - you definitely need ways to deal with guys with big buts, like Consecrated Sphinx and any creature attached to Wolfir Silverheart. Wurmcoil does a pretty good job, but if you jam too many finishers in the deck it gets WAY too clunky. Chandra doubling up your burn actually helps with this a ton and her inclusion is almost uniquely for the access to her second ability. The ping isn't terrible - but it isn't great either. The numbers for everything should be about correct, although it might be right to cut a spot removal spell or two to have another Devil's play + Karn. It seems poor though. Pillar of Flame makes sure Strangleroot Geist doesn't outright murder you, and the access to a Blasphemous Act at all means this deck can deal with large creatures eventually. Bonfire is absurd against all of the creature decks popping up - these are the decks that this Trading Post style deck is supposed to prey upon, so the match-up should be stacked as much in your favor as possible. I would play no less than 4 Bonfires. You definitely need access to all the clones in the world and then some (post-board_, because the Wolf Run match-up is abysmal, and the deck is quite well positioned in the meta. Trading Post + Wurmcoil Engine helps you win the endgame, but the turn or two after they stick the first titan is very tough to live through, especially if you don't have an answer. Similarly, control match-ups are pretty bad too, but sometimes they'll let you set up a recurring Wurmcoil - Dissipate is understandably our least favorite card . Would not play this deck unless you were expecting to face creature decks up the wazoo and/or Delver decks start phasing out dissipates in your area. If those conditions are met it is an excellent meta deck.
Slagstorms for the aggro in my meta, smelt for swords, mindslaver for control, spellskite for infect rancor and other removal, mimic vat for zombie pod and undying, Elixir of Immortality and Molten Psyche for turbofog (people play it in my meta, i donno why), zealous conscripts for pod and WRR. I feel like thats not permanent though.
Okay so, Kuldotha Phoenix is crazy in this deck. Discard it with Trading Post, bring it back around counterspells next turn and be swinging for 4, for an 8 point life swing.
Perilous Myr does equally insane things with Trading Post. It essentially becomes: "1, Sacrifice ~: Deal two damage. Draw a card." Which is card advantage at its best. With two, you can loop them, and it can all be done at instant speed.
I'm going to find a way to 3of both of them, and probably shift my major bomb from Wurmcoil to Phoenix.
One of the things this deck teaches, though, is patience. If you have a sweeper in your initial hand, you can hold out for quite a while to use it, especially with as much lifegain as this deck has. And once you hit the magical 6 mana, watch out.
I did notice a few problems with a Frites deck I played against, but that was just because I didn't have metalcraft due to aggressive card draw/saccing Wellsprings. This deck takes a bit of getting used to. Still, I'll put more testing in later tonight, and especially tomorrow.
Okay so, Kuldotha Phoenix is crazy in this deck. Discard it with Trading Post, bring it back around counterspells next turn and be swinging for 4, for an 8 point life swing.
Perilous Myr does equally insane things with Trading Post. It essentially becomes: "1, Sacrifice ~: Deal two damage. Draw a card." Which is card advantage at its best. With two, you can loop them, and it can all be done at instant speed.
I'm going to find a way to 3of both of them, and probably shift my major bomb from Wurmcoil to Phoenix.
you could try the phoenix main board and have the wurm coil as a side board card for aggro deck's.
Has anyone considered/tested Faithless Looting in this deck? It seems like the recursive elements would be able to benefit from the discard, and having the added bonus of filtering to key cards and/or answers gives the deck even better selection. It's cheap, in color, and has solid synergy.
Oblivion Ring, Huntmaster, Thragtusk, Remember the Fallen, Dispatch.. I just see no reason to go monored if you don't have to. Splashing is easy.
The splash can be pretty painless. Solemn, Sphere and Prism all make sense in the deck, and you can drop the Inkmoths for some duals. Tezzeret doesn't have to be a turn 4 play.
patlienemann: Geosurge helps cast everything but the burn, which is very castable already.
4th place at CCC&G Pro Tour
Chances of bad hands (<2 or >4 land):
21: 28.9%
22: 27.5%
23: 26.3%
24: 25.5%
25: 25.1%
26: 25.3%
The actual threat count might need to be upped, then. Perhaps some more Batterskulls or Kuldotha Phoenixes?
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
- 4 solemn simulacrum
- 2 batterskull
- 1 kudlotha phoenix
- 1 precursor golem
- 1 phyrexian metamorph
That does pretty much everything. You have lifegain, card advantage, metalcraft enabler and the phoenix for eating planeswalkers. If you need more life-gain or win conditions, then that is what sideboarding is for; these incremental advantage decks want to go extremely long, so being able to buy back threats and slowly grind them out will work best. You won't beat a proper control deck, but right now, you don't have to.
I really like the wellspring package. From what Michael Jacob has been running in his WB version of the deck, 4 ichor + 2 mycosynth seems to be ideal, supported by pristine taismans. Buried ruins to get back threats is a big game. Trading Post should help here a lot.
The only other thing I would look at adding is a devil's play (additional win-con) and a splash for either certain removal (black) or recurring artifact destruction (green). Neither requires a heavy comittment due to the wellsprings.
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I'm not sure what you count for threats, but I made a tweak or two in your list and am running this as a creature base(read: threats).
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Solemn Simulacrum
Solemn isn't necessarily a threat, but Engine and Metamorph are, each in their own different way (I dropped Batterskull for personal reasons; I too am interested in building this, and would need to be able to get the cards), so that leaves 7 threats, which is a decent amount considering the dig we have. But I'm doing nothing but durdling for half a game sometimes.
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
Want to see me in action? Check out my stream! Currently broadcasting Boros Burn in Standard. Full archive available.
Want to play better magic? Come join us at diestoremoval.com
here's my list.
[DECK]
Creature's
4x Solemn Simulacrum
4x perilous Myr
4x Stuffy Doll
2x Spellskite1x wurmcoil engine
Spell's
4x Blasphemous Act
3x slagstorm
2x whip flare
2x magmaquake
artifacts
4x trading post
4x Sphere of the sun
2x Gilded Lotus
2x BatterSkull
lands
4x Hellion Crusible
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Cavern of souls
14x Mountain[DECK]
the ideal is to make it where you don't just have one way to win but have many other way to win and put the pressure on the Opp.
Using perilous myr and trading post 3 ability to sac a creature and put a artifact back to you hand is really good. block with perilous myr then sac it hit your opp or hit a creature your not blocking and kill it.
spellskite is in to make every spell to go to it. like O-Ring and revoke existence.
i found while testing my deck hellion crucible was really good after i cleared the board of any pesky monster's other then my stuffy doll with blasphemous act.
also a batter skull on a stuffy doll is really really scary to deal with. because if you block stuffy doll you lose life and you lose a creature. while i gain life. and if someone doe's kill stuffy doll or batter skull you can just put it back to your hand from trading post.
that's all i can think of why i put these cards all in the deck.
now thats what i'm talking about. very good list you should try it at fnm. whats your sideboard?
still working on it. so far gafediggers cage look's good as a 2 of. but still working on the side board.
And I still want to get Kuldotha Phoenix in here somewhere.
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
I'd be really curious to see results, though I may play this friday anyway.
I LOVE Kphoenix builds, I used to play that card like CRAZY with a RG Metalcraft deck. Once it hit's board it's really hard for your Opp to get rid of it. Two on Board? GG.
I do like stuffy doll though also, but I wouldn't run 4 of.
Maybe something like...
1 Kuldotha Phoenix
3 Perilous Myr
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Trading Post
2 Tumble Magnet
2 Slagstorm
3 Blasphemous Act
4 Galvanic Blast
1 Mindslaver
2 Stuffy Doll
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Buried Ruin
2 Hellion Crucible
3 Ghost Quarter
This is a list put together in litterally 5 minutes so tear it apart or help it out Mimic Vat though seems to be a nice stop to undying, and I would gladly put some in SB also.
edit: now see if I take out the stuffy dolls that means I take out BActs and that would make room for spellskites or more phoenix, etc...
second edit: would faithless looting help us at all?
Currently Playing
UTron
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
faithless looting might be really good in your deck. you should try it and see how it works for you.
Semblance post
4 ichor wellspring
4 mycosynth wellspring
4 tumble magnet
4 semblance anvil
4 trading post
1 batterskull
2 wurmcoil engine
2 Mindslaver
1 myr battlesphere
2 spine of Ish sah
1 bonfire
1 kuldotha phoenix
4 galvanic blast
4 slagstorm
4 core
2 buried ruin
1 ghost quarter
15 mountain
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Ichor Wellspring
2 Trading Post
2 Mycosynth Wellspring
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Bonfire of the Damned
3 Pillar of Flame
1 Blasphemous Act
2 Arc Trail
2 Slagstorm
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
1 Devil's Play
4 Phyrexia's Core
2 Buried Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Hellion Crucible
15 Mountain
Sideboard is in flux - you definitely need ways to deal with guys with big buts, like Consecrated Sphinx and any creature attached to Wolfir Silverheart. Wurmcoil does a pretty good job, but if you jam too many finishers in the deck it gets WAY too clunky. Chandra doubling up your burn actually helps with this a ton and her inclusion is almost uniquely for the access to her second ability. The ping isn't terrible - but it isn't great either. The numbers for everything should be about correct, although it might be right to cut a spot removal spell or two to have another Devil's play + Karn. It seems poor though. Pillar of Flame makes sure Strangleroot Geist doesn't outright murder you, and the access to a Blasphemous Act at all means this deck can deal with large creatures eventually. Bonfire is absurd against all of the creature decks popping up - these are the decks that this Trading Post style deck is supposed to prey upon, so the match-up should be stacked as much in your favor as possible. I would play no less than 4 Bonfires. You definitely need access to all the clones in the world and then some (post-board_, because the Wolf Run match-up is abysmal, and the deck is quite well positioned in the meta. Trading Post + Wurmcoil Engine helps you win the endgame, but the turn or two after they stick the first titan is very tough to live through, especially if you don't have an answer. Similarly, control match-ups are pretty bad too, but sometimes they'll let you set up a recurring Wurmcoil - Dissipate is understandably our least favorite card . Would not play this deck unless you were expecting to face creature decks up the wazoo and/or Delver decks start phasing out dissipates in your area. If those conditions are met it is an excellent meta deck.
1 Mimic Vat
2 Kuldotha Phoenix
3 Perilous Myr
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull
4 Ichor Wellspring
3 Trading Post
2 Tumble Magnet
2 Slagstorm
4 Galvanic Blast
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Staff of Nin
2 Chandra, the Firebrand
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Buried Ruin
2 Hellion Crucible
3 Ghost Quarter
Updated
Edit:
1 Mindslaver
2 Smelt
3 Spellskite
1 Mimic Vat
2 Elixir of Immortality
2 Molten Psyche
2 Zealous Conscripts
Slagstorms for the aggro in my meta, smelt for swords, mindslaver for control, spellskite for infect rancor and other removal, mimic vat for zombie pod and undying, Elixir of Immortality and Molten Psyche for turbofog (people play it in my meta, i donno why), zealous conscripts for pod and WRR. I feel like thats not permanent though.
Currently Playing
UTron
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
Perilous Myr does equally insane things with Trading Post. It essentially becomes: "1, Sacrifice ~: Deal two damage. Draw a card." Which is card advantage at its best. With two, you can loop them, and it can all be done at instant speed.
I'm going to find a way to 3of both of them, and probably shift my major bomb from Wurmcoil to Phoenix.
Currently Playing
UTron
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
The deck I was running is as follows:
15x Mountain
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Buried Ruin
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Phyrexia's Core
3x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Kuldotha Phoenix
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Spells (11)
4x Galvanic Blast
2x Whipflare
3x Slagstorm
2x Magmaquake
4x Ichor Wellspring
4x Pristine Talisman
2x Tumble Magnet
3x Trading Post
One of the things this deck teaches, though, is patience. If you have a sweeper in your initial hand, you can hold out for quite a while to use it, especially with as much lifegain as this deck has. And once you hit the magical 6 mana, watch out.
I did notice a few problems with a Frites deck I played against, but that was just because I didn't have metalcraft due to aggressive card draw/saccing Wellsprings. This deck takes a bit of getting used to. Still, I'll put more testing in later tonight, and especially tomorrow.
Also, Tumble Magnet is a house.
Currently Working On: Jund Ramp (RTR Block)
GR My Blog RG (Std)
you could try the phoenix main board and have the wurm coil as a side board card for aggro deck's.
3 Phyrexia's Core
3 Buried Ruin
3 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Ichor Wellspring
4 Trading Post
4 Pristine Talisman
2 Tumble Magnet
3 Kuldotha Phoenix
3 Perilous Myr
3 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Galvanic Blast
3 Magmaquake
2 Whipflare