Pod without the pods to me is a bad ramp deck. Yes, the deck can still win (although it's not as good at being a ramp deck as Wolf Run). But it's an inferior version of another deck. That was why I was saying it's bad.
This is exactly what I was saying. Current lists are just bad ramp decks with pod thrown in with the assumption that it somehow makes the deck playable. It doesn't. You will only get to use the pod in about half your games. That means that in the other half you are playing a bad ramp deck. Even good ramp decks are only marginally viable in the current meta. What chance does a bad ramp deck have.
Running Reassembling Skelton and Mirran Crusader in the same deck does NOT seem to me to be building a good deck that can curve out and win without pod in play...
I was making no claims about a deck. I was only pointing out that there are several exchanges at the 1-3 mana slot that are worth the mana costs. This is a strawman. Although there is probably not a BW deck that can use pod to mash skeletons into M.crusaders I would bet there is a GW deck that can mash geists into crusaders.
I also think that Gravecrawler is totally unnecessary as a Phantasmal Image enabler, since 'good' versions of Pod should be running 7+ 1 mana accelerants, which are easily expended to search up an image.
"Good" versions? You mean those versions that you earlier admitted were bad? Sorry the ramp version is bad. It relies too heavily on pod. Half the games it will not have access to pod. It just is not competitive with the top decks in the environment. 7+ mana accelerators is not the gold standard.
Here are the possibilities for a "good" pod deck:
Mostly black aggro/rock: The main pod interaction is turning messenger into more messengers via metamorphs.
BG infect: Turn skeletons into crusaders and corrupters.
MGA: Turn geists into big hexproof monsters.
UG tempo: Turn undying creatures into more undying creatures with evasion.
I am sure there are more, but I haven't taken the time to run through the whole card pool. This is just what I can see off the top of my head.
This is exactly what I was saying. Current lists are just bad ramp decks with pod thrown in with the assumption that it somehow makes the deck playable. It doesn't. You will only get to use the pod in about half your games. That means that in the other half you are playing a bad ramp deck. Even good ramp decks are only marginally viable in the current meta. What chance does a bad ramp deck have.
I was making no claims about a deck. I was only pointing out that there are several exchanges at the 1-3 mana slot that are worth the mana costs. This is a strawman. Although there is probably not a BW deck that can use pod to mash skeletons into M.crusaders I would bet there is a GW deck that can mash geists into crusaders.
"Good" versions? You mean those versions that you earlier admitted were bad? Sorry the ramp version is bad. It relies too heavily on pod. Half the games it will not have access to pod. It just is not competitive with the top decks in the environment. 7+ mana accelerators is not the gold standard.
Here are the possibilities for a "good" pod deck:
Mostly black aggro/rock: The main pod interaction is turning messenger into more messengers via metamorphs.
BG infect: Turn skeletons into crusaders and corrupters.
MGA: Turn geists into big hexproof monsters.
UG tempo: Turn undying creatures into more undying creatures with evasion.
I am sure there are more, but I haven't taken the time to run through the whole card pool. This is just what I can see off the top of my head.
Ok, let's look at some pod lists that did well at the Pro Tour. I notice that all but one has 7+ mana accelerants. I also notice that there were 14 pod lists at the Pro Tour, 8 had winning records, 1 made top 8, and overall they had a roughly 60% winning percentage, the highest of any deck with a significant number of matches. That doesn't sound like a 'bad deck'.
So what happened according to you? Were their opponents all bad? Seems unlikely. Or did they just miss an even stronger version of the deck, that could have gone 65% or even 70% against the field, which would be practically unheard of at a Pro Tour?
I'm sure there is significant work to be done on these lists, and significant improvements to be made. And there may be a strong and completely different approach out there that hasn't been discovered yet. I know I'll be looking at a few options over the next few days as DKA is released online at last. Some of those options are even on your proposed list of 'good' pod decks. But to dismiss a very strongly performing deck as just plain bad....is just plain bad. We need to use the information from the (few) results we have if we are to get anywhere.
On a more theorycrafting note, those mana accelerants are what make you less reliant on pod. In the event that you don't draw a pod, you use them to hit your big drops anyway. Running fewer accelerants does not help your consistency in this deck; quite the opposite.
Magicmerl commented that Pod decks fall into two main archtypes:
1. Midrange-Control
2. Midrange-Aggro
I agree with this - to a point, but I believe that the real dividing line in build theory is:
1. Consitent Pod, or
2. Toolbox Pod
With Midrange-Control or Aggro being subtypes of those two.
Pretty much all debates in the old G/X Birthing Pod thread boiled down to Consistent-vs-Toolbox and, IMO, it'd be a mistake to not address that in the Primer.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
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redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
I will definitely touch on that on a future update, providing examples from PT DKA decklists. I was trying to avoid decklists here just because there is a thread dedicated to that, but I think it would be valuable for the purpose of illustrating these two approaches to Birthing Pod.
Does toolbox pod really deserve mention in the primer? we haven't seen lists like that yield results in months..
Maybe not, but it's still a very popular way to build and play Pod. Is it good? I certainly don't think so. Right now roughly 1/2 the builds in the deck section are pretty extreme Toolboxes, though, so it should be included.
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Magicmerl commented that Pod decks fall into two main archtypes:
1. Midrange-Control
2. Midrange-Aggro
I agree with this - to a point, but I believe that the real dividing line in build theory is:
1. Consitent Pod, or
2. Toolbox Pod
With Midrange-Control or Aggro being subtypes of those two.
Pretty much all debates in the old G/X Birthing Pod thread boiled down to Consistent-vs-Toolbox and, IMO, it'd be a mistake to not address that in the Primer.
Thankyou.
I actually think that every pod deck is somewhere on the consistent-toolbox spectrum. Every Pod list I've seen runs Acidic Slime. How is that an aggro card? It's not.
I think that most people in the old threads had evolved their lists to be consistent at the 1-3 drops. And pretty much Everybody still ran Elesh Norn, titans and slimes. So every list was a mix of consistent early plays and a toolbox late game.
Pre-Huntmaster, the 4 slot was where people started with the singletons. Now, the 4 slot is the dividing line. The 'consistent' people run 4 Huntmasters. The 'toolbox' people run things like Metamorph. Yes?
This is exactly what I was saying. Current lists are just bad ramp decks with pod thrown in with the assumption that it somehow makes the deck playable. It doesn't. You will only get to use the pod in about half your games. That means that in the other half you are playing a bad ramp deck. Even good ramp decks are only marginally viable in the current meta. What chance does a bad ramp deck have.
You appear to be ignorant of the results of the most recent PT. Pod was the deck of the tournament in terms of record once you get past the decks that only had a handful of pilots. Whether you like it or not, Pod is a solidly Tier 2 deck at worst in the current metagame.
Even the 'consistent' versions of Pod are still bad ramp decks, which is still enough to get you there some of the time.
And please, enough of the hyperbole. "Even good ramp decks are only marginally viable in the current meta" Really? Wolf Run is one of the pillars of the current metagame, if not the best deck. It just won the last two PTs. It's hard to take you seriously when you say things like this.
I was making no claims about a deck. I was only pointing out that there are several exchanges at the 1-3 mana slot that are worth the mana costs. This is a strawman. Although there is probably not a BW deck that can use pod to mash skeletons into M.crusaders I would bet there is a GW deck that can mash geists into crusaders.
"Good" versions? You mean those versions that you earlier admitted were bad? Sorry the ramp version is bad. It relies too heavily on pod. Half the games it will not have access to pod. It just is not competitive with the top decks in the environment. 7+ mana accelerators is not the gold standard.
Again, did you SEE the Pro Tour? EVERY winning Pod list ran 7+ mana bugs. EVERY. SINGLE. LIST. The 'consistent' Naya build ran 8.
Mostly black aggro/rock: The main pod interaction is turning messenger into more messengers via metamorphs.
BG infect: Turn skeletons into crusaders and corrupters.
MGA: Turn geists into big hexproof monsters.
UG tempo: Turn undying creatures into more undying creatures with evasion.
I am sure there are more, but I haven't taken the time to run through the whole card pool. This is just what I can see off the top of my head.
I only see one possibility for a 'good' Pod deck (using your vocabulary where 'consistent' = 'good'): Naya.
That's because only Naya has a good 4 drop, to complement Blade Splicer and Strangleroot Geist.
It's also the Pod deck that made the top 8 of the PT, so it's the one that everybody is going to bandwagon on to. We'll soon know whether Pod was a decent metagame deck or whether it has the staying power to continue it's results in the coming weeks.
I only see one possibility for a 'good' Pod deck (using your vocabulary where 'consistent' = 'good'): Naya.
That's because only Naya has a good 4 drop, to complement Blade Splicer and Strangleroot Geist.
But that 4 drop is really only 'good' because the meta for this month is delver....once another decks pops around that deals with him, huntmaster will be yet another 'bad' 4 drop.
I agreed with most of what you were saying until
But that 4 drop is really only 'good' because the meta for this month is delver....once another decks pops around that deals with him, huntmaster will be yet another 'bad' 4 drop.
I disagree. For the sake of this discussion, let's ignore the fact Delver is a top-tier deck.
Upon closer inspection, I started to see Huntmaster in a different light:
-He is a poor Vapor Snag target. The life gain and Wolf token are both relevant deterrent
-He forces the opponent to play a spell on his turn when he doesn't want to, lest he flip and cause more havoc.
-Huntmaster still does something when he can't attack. If the opponent has four power on the board, Hero of Bladehold is often held back. Huntmaster grants you incremental advantage as long as you keep him on the board and flipping.
-Huntmaster interacts amazingly well with spell lands and other ways to spend mana without casting a spell.
-It doesn't die to Phantasmal Image. Thrun, the Last Troll was previously Green's best four-drop. It's hard to imagine a situation where your vanilla 2/2 being more durable than a 4/4 Hexproof Regenerate, but Phantasmal Image is seeing a lot of play in a wide assortment of decks.
Within the context of Birthing Pod decks:
-At worst, Huntmaster can be sacrificed to move up the Pod chain, while still gaining value (2/2 Wolf and 2 life)
-You can Pod away a three drop to fetch Huntmaster of the Fells, and still not play a spell that turn to flip him immediately.
-It turns your late game mana dork top-decks into a way to casting two spells on your turn and flip him back to Human side. Your unneeded Llanowar Elves effectively become a Wolf Token, a Shock and a four point life swing.
I played Naya Pod at a Standard tournament today, went 4-1. Huntmaster was my MVP. Even over Birthing Pod. He was just simply amazing.
@bokchoy I understand that huntmaster is a great card.....but better than phantasmal???
What you need to decide is blue or red. Blue IMO is better; It allows for a broader spectrum of combos, both toolbox and aggressive, especially utilizing phantasmal image and venser.
While I understand red is powerful, I'm just not that inclined toward inferno titan over sun titan....and naya doesn't run enough 3 drops to justify sun titan.
This is why I said that Naya Pod will probably die out a little, eventually the meta will switch and the 'anti-meta pod' will no longer affect the current meta, rendering it's build mute....this may not happen but I don't want to swap out my entire deck just because the meta dictates I do so.
@bokchoy I understand that huntmaster is a great card.....but better than phantasmal???
What you need to decide is blue or red. Blue IMO is better; It allows for a broader spectrum of combos, both toolbox and aggressive, especially utilizing phantasmal image and venser.
While I understand red is powerful, I'm just not that inclined toward inferno titan over sun titan....and naya doesn't run enough 3 drops to justify sun titan.
This is why I said that Naya Pod will probably die out a little, eventually the meta will switch and the 'anti-meta pod' will no longer affect the current meta, rendering it's build mute....this may not happen but I don't want to swap out my entire deck just because the meta dictates I do so.
My bad. I was responding to your comment about Huntmaster of the Fells being "another bad 4 drop".
However, I don't think it's fair to say that Naya Pod is successful only because it's well positioned against the meta. It's a genuinely well-built aggro deck with Birthing Pod as its engine for inevitability and an engine for a win condition.
I haven't tested out Bant Pod enough to determine which one I think is stronger, but like you said, Naya Pod is best for fighting Delver, which is undoubtedly our worst matchup right now. Ancient Grudge out of the board is also obviously very good. Arc Trail too.
There was a deck that played GWRU. Blue for Phantasmal Image, Red for Huntmaster of the Fells, but only one copy of each and otherwise heavy into GW.
Upcoming updates...
-Sideboard options: Which cards, why, and against what?
-Expanding on color combinations, advantages/disadvantages
-Additions of card suggestions on existing sections.
This won't be done overnight but I'll try my best.
Feel free to offer suggestions and insight.
These updates are still coming. I've been busy with work and had a Standard event last night (Naya Pod, 4-1). Stay tuned.
But that 4 drop is really only 'good' because the meta for this month is delver....once another decks pops around that deals with him, huntmaster will be yet another 'bad' 4 drop.
I agree with you here. Huntmaster is beautifully positioned against the metagame at present because every good deck has targets for his 'shock' ability, and he's the world's worst Vapor Snag target.
He is almost the quintissential midrange card. I wouldn't expect the metagame to stay in a state where a midrange card is arguably the best. That to me is a metagame that is ripe for a control or combo deck to arise.
All it takes is for Delver to die off a little, and the 'best' deck to evolve to be a control/combo deck, and Huntmaster (and Naya) will again be a bad choice.
I've added a Birthing Pod Variants section to the OP, describing and giving a description and brief guideline of the different variants that are seeing competitive play. I've thought about it and I personally don't necessarily agree with consistent/toolbox as the best way to differentiate between Birthing Pod variation. This is mainly because this thread is in the "Developing Competitive" section and I think that truly good Birthing Pod decks are much more thought out and building one is a much more intricate process than simply deciding where on the spectrum you want to be. Instead, I used Naya (Mid-range aggro), Bant (Phantasmal Image/Sun Titan), BG (Glissa/Undying). As more competitive Birthing Pod variants are developed/discovered, I will add them to the primer. I realize this is a bit of an executive decision on my part, but I hope it's agreeable by you guys. If not, I'm open to changing it or adding to it.
Next updates:
-Completing and posting the Sideboard section. I'll probably do it within the next few days.
-Revision of spells that are listed as recommendations. The way I have it now, I've included a bunch of spells that CAN be used with Birthing Pod but aren't very good. I figure since we're trying to keep this topic within the context of competitive versions of the deck, it would mean limiting the suggestions on the primer to actually competitive choices.
I am always open to suggestions for additions/improvements for the Primer. Please feel free to give any suggestions and feedback.
You should mention Grand Architect. He works so beautifully in Pod. Underrated. I hope the list sees some more play. I will be posting some tourney results that I hope will sway your minds.
Great write up! I'm not sure if it was mentioned before, but it may be worth considering a section for match up strategy. I've been playing pod on MTGO lately, and I have to agree that its not as easy at it seems. I was in a game against esper and it may have just been my luck, but their inevitability got me in the long run, I ran out of gas and ripped lands off the top for like 7 turns.
You should mention Grand Architect. He works so beautifully in Pod. Underrated. I hope the list sees some more play. I will be posting some tourney results that I hope will sway your minds.
Great write up! I'm not sure if it was mentioned before, but it may be worth considering a section for match up strategy. I've been playing pod on MTGO lately, and I have to agree that its not as easy at it seems. I was in a game against esper and it may have just been my luck, but their inevitability got me in the long run, I ran out of gas and ripped lands off the top for like 7 turns.
Thanks, guys!
I'm on the fence on whether I should include all Birthing Pod variants or just the ones that have proven to be the most competitive. I suppose if it's a primer, it should be all-encompassing.
As for match-up and play strategy, I think I'm gonna keep the primer within the contexts of deckbuilding only. A separate thread should be made for match-up and play, which is something we definitely need.
I'm surprised there's no section about junk pod in BGw colors. it's typically a BG list with possibilities of fiend hunger, elesh norn, o ring, rune-scarred demon and unburial rites.
In other news, I played naya pod and podded into a huntmaster tonight and passed the turn. now that's value.
I've added a Birthing Pod Variants section to the OP, describing and giving a description and brief guideline of the different variants that are seeing competitive play. I've thought about it and I personally don't necessarily agree with consistent/toolbox as the best way to differentiate between Birthing Pod variation. This is mainly because this thread is in the "Developing Competitive" section and I think that truly good Birthing Pod decks are much more thought out and building one is a much more intricate process than simply deciding where on the spectrum you want to be. Instead, I used Naya (Mid-range aggro), Bant (Phantasmal Image/Sun Titan), BG (Glissa/Undying). As more competitive Birthing Pod variants are developed/discovered, I will add them to the primer. I realize this is a bit of an executive decision on my part, but I hope it's agreeable by you guys. If not, I'm open to changing it or adding to it.
Next updates:
-Completing and posting the Sideboard section. I'll probably do it within the next few days.
-Revision of spells that are listed as recommendations. The way I have it now, I've included a bunch of spells that CAN be used with Birthing Pod but aren't very good. I figure since we're trying to keep this topic within the context of competitive versions of the deck, it would mean limiting the suggestions on the primer to actually competitive choices.
I am always open to suggestions for additions/improvements for the Primer. Please feel free to give any suggestions and feedback.
PS. How do we get this thing stickied?
I would add elesh norn to the list of key cards for the bant list. As you accurately observe, bant lists tend to be a bit slower and more patient than naya ones. Because of this, I would say they actually rely more on elesh norn than their naya counterparts; you need elesh norn as a game-breaking effect to put you back ahead after you've let your opponent get ahead. I certainly can't image building a bant list without it.
So has anybody else been getting mileage out of Seance? It takes a bit of reading to properly parse what it does, but my experience with it so far is that if I can stick one four-drop against your typical Pile-o-Mana-Leaks control matchup, I almost always want my Seance online before my Pod...
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Oh, you think the losers' bracket is your ally, but you merely adopted the scrub tier. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn’t 4-0 an FNM until I was already a man; by then, it was nothing to me but an extra pack to sell for store credit!
Thank you very much for creating this primer! I recently got the Spiraling Doom Event Deck and was looking for a way to improve upon it. You primer is exactly what I needed!
Hey everyone. I'm looking around for ideas for another Standard deck, and this one caught my eye. Does anyone have opinions of which one is more powerful and/or more fun to play? Right now I'm considering Bant Pod or BUG Pod, since I don't have the Huntmasters that really make Naya Pod tick.
Also, to the OP: I noticed in your BUG Pod section that you talk about Undying and BSZ allowing your undying creatures to live through the sweeper. According to this judge, with a rules quote to back it up, that's not the case and undying creatures with +1/+1 counters on them die to a BSZ > their toughness just like everything else:
When I first learned about "Birthing Pod" I was a bit skeptic, as I am most things. I think that this was a really good post and it helped me learn a few things, about what I should be looking to go up against. I always heard people use the term "Pod" but I was never really sure what it was. I also was considering running Birthing Pod in my Naya Zoo deck.
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This is exactly what I was saying. Current lists are just bad ramp decks with pod thrown in with the assumption that it somehow makes the deck playable. It doesn't. You will only get to use the pod in about half your games. That means that in the other half you are playing a bad ramp deck. Even good ramp decks are only marginally viable in the current meta. What chance does a bad ramp deck have.
I was making no claims about a deck. I was only pointing out that there are several exchanges at the 1-3 mana slot that are worth the mana costs. This is a strawman. Although there is probably not a BW deck that can use pod to mash skeletons into M.crusaders I would bet there is a GW deck that can mash geists into crusaders.
"Good" versions? You mean those versions that you earlier admitted were bad? Sorry the ramp version is bad. It relies too heavily on pod. Half the games it will not have access to pod. It just is not competitive with the top decks in the environment. 7+ mana accelerators is not the gold standard.
Here are the possibilities for a "good" pod deck:
Mostly black aggro/rock: The main pod interaction is turning messenger into more messengers via metamorphs.
BG infect: Turn skeletons into crusaders and corrupters.
MGA: Turn geists into big hexproof monsters.
UG tempo: Turn undying creatures into more undying creatures with evasion.
I am sure there are more, but I haven't taken the time to run through the whole card pool. This is just what I can see off the top of my head.
Ok, let's look at some pod lists that did well at the Pro Tour. I notice that all but one has 7+ mana accelerants. I also notice that there were 14 pod lists at the Pro Tour, 8 had winning records, 1 made top 8, and overall they had a roughly 60% winning percentage, the highest of any deck with a significant number of matches. That doesn't sound like a 'bad deck'.
So what happened according to you? Were their opponents all bad? Seems unlikely. Or did they just miss an even stronger version of the deck, that could have gone 65% or even 70% against the field, which would be practically unheard of at a Pro Tour?
I'm sure there is significant work to be done on these lists, and significant improvements to be made. And there may be a strong and completely different approach out there that hasn't been discovered yet. I know I'll be looking at a few options over the next few days as DKA is released online at last. Some of those options are even on your proposed list of 'good' pod decks. But to dismiss a very strongly performing deck as just plain bad....is just plain bad. We need to use the information from the (few) results we have if we are to get anywhere.
On a more theorycrafting note, those mana accelerants are what make you less reliant on pod. In the event that you don't draw a pod, you use them to hit your big drops anyway. Running fewer accelerants does not help your consistency in this deck; quite the opposite.
Links for reference:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptdka12/stddecks
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptdka12/archetypebreakdown_2
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
1. Midrange-Control
2. Midrange-Aggro
I agree with this - to a point, but I believe that the real dividing line in build theory is:
1. Consitent Pod, or
2. Toolbox Pod
With Midrange-Control or Aggro being subtypes of those two.
Pretty much all debates in the old G/X Birthing Pod thread boiled down to Consistent-vs-Toolbox and, IMO, it'd be a mistake to not address that in the Primer.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Draft My Cube!
Maybe not, but it's still a very popular way to build and play Pod. Is it good? I certainly don't think so. Right now roughly 1/2 the builds in the deck section are pretty extreme Toolboxes, though, so it should be included.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
Thankyou.
I actually think that every pod deck is somewhere on the consistent-toolbox spectrum. Every Pod list I've seen runs Acidic Slime. How is that an aggro card? It's not.
I think that most people in the old threads had evolved their lists to be consistent at the 1-3 drops. And pretty much Everybody still ran Elesh Norn, titans and slimes. So every list was a mix of consistent early plays and a toolbox late game.
Pre-Huntmaster, the 4 slot was where people started with the singletons. Now, the 4 slot is the dividing line. The 'consistent' people run 4 Huntmasters. The 'toolbox' people run things like Metamorph. Yes?
You appear to be ignorant of the results of the most recent PT. Pod was the deck of the tournament in terms of record once you get past the decks that only had a handful of pilots. Whether you like it or not, Pod is a solidly Tier 2 deck at worst in the current metagame.
Even the 'consistent' versions of Pod are still bad ramp decks, which is still enough to get you there some of the time.
And please, enough of the hyperbole. "Even good ramp decks are only marginally viable in the current meta" Really? Wolf Run is one of the pillars of the current metagame, if not the best deck. It just won the last two PTs. It's hard to take you seriously when you say things like this.
Yep, and then follow it up with Huntmaster. Naya.
Again, did you SEE the Pro Tour? EVERY winning Pod list ran 7+ mana bugs. EVERY. SINGLE. LIST. The 'consistent' Naya build ran 8.
I only see one possibility for a 'good' Pod deck (using your vocabulary where 'consistent' = 'good'): Naya.
That's because only Naya has a good 4 drop, to complement Blade Splicer and Strangleroot Geist.
It's also the Pod deck that made the top 8 of the PT, so it's the one that everybody is going to bandwagon on to. We'll soon know whether Pod was a decent metagame deck or whether it has the staying power to continue it's results in the coming weeks.
But that 4 drop is really only 'good' because the meta for this month is delver....once another decks pops around that deals with him, huntmaster will be yet another 'bad' 4 drop.
I disagree. For the sake of this discussion, let's ignore the fact Delver is a top-tier deck.
At first, I had my doubts about Huntmaster of the Fells. It dies to everything. Galvanic Blast, Doom Blade, Go for the Throat, Whipflare, Slagstorm, Black Sun's Zenith for two. Even Dead Weight kills him. For when he doesn't die, I compared him to the most aggressive four-drop in Standard, Hero of Bladehold, and Huntmaster doesn't hold a candle to its destructive force.
Upon closer inspection, I started to see Huntmaster in a different light:
-He is a poor Vapor Snag target. The life gain and Wolf token are both relevant deterrent
-He forces the opponent to play a spell on his turn when he doesn't want to, lest he flip and cause more havoc.
-Huntmaster still does something when he can't attack. If the opponent has four power on the board, Hero of Bladehold is often held back. Huntmaster grants you incremental advantage as long as you keep him on the board and flipping.
-Huntmaster interacts amazingly well with spell lands and other ways to spend mana without casting a spell.
-It doesn't die to Phantasmal Image. Thrun, the Last Troll was previously Green's best four-drop. It's hard to imagine a situation where your vanilla 2/2 being more durable than a 4/4 Hexproof Regenerate, but Phantasmal Image is seeing a lot of play in a wide assortment of decks.
Within the context of Birthing Pod decks:
-At worst, Huntmaster can be sacrificed to move up the Pod chain, while still gaining value (2/2 Wolf and 2 life)
-You can Pod away a three drop to fetch Huntmaster of the Fells, and still not play a spell that turn to flip him immediately.
-It turns your late game mana dork top-decks into a way to casting two spells on your turn and flip him back to Human side. Your unneeded Llanowar Elves effectively become a Wolf Token, a Shock and a four point life swing.
I played Naya Pod at a Standard tournament today, went 4-1. Huntmaster was my MVP. Even over Birthing Pod. He was just simply amazing.
What you need to decide is blue or red. Blue IMO is better; It allows for a broader spectrum of combos, both toolbox and aggressive, especially utilizing phantasmal image and venser.
While I understand red is powerful, I'm just not that inclined toward inferno titan over sun titan....and naya doesn't run enough 3 drops to justify sun titan.
This is why I said that Naya Pod will probably die out a little, eventually the meta will switch and the 'anti-meta pod' will no longer affect the current meta, rendering it's build mute....this may not happen but I don't want to swap out my entire deck just because the meta dictates I do so.
My bad. I was responding to your comment about Huntmaster of the Fells being "another bad 4 drop".
Yeah, the interaction between Phantasmal Image & Strangleroot Geist and Sun Titan is just sick.
However, I don't think it's fair to say that Naya Pod is successful only because it's well positioned against the meta. It's a genuinely well-built aggro deck with Birthing Pod as its engine for inevitability and an engine for a win condition.
I haven't tested out Bant Pod enough to determine which one I think is stronger, but like you said, Naya Pod is best for fighting Delver, which is undoubtedly our worst matchup right now. Ancient Grudge out of the board is also obviously very good. Arc Trail too.
There was a deck that played GWRU. Blue for Phantasmal Image, Red for Huntmaster of the Fells, but only one copy of each and otherwise heavy into GW.
These updates are still coming. I've been busy with work and had a Standard event last night (Naya Pod, 4-1). Stay tuned.
I agree with you here. Huntmaster is beautifully positioned against the metagame at present because every good deck has targets for his 'shock' ability, and he's the world's worst Vapor Snag target.
He is almost the quintissential midrange card. I wouldn't expect the metagame to stay in a state where a midrange card is arguably the best. That to me is a metagame that is ripe for a control or combo deck to arise.
All it takes is for Delver to die off a little, and the 'best' deck to evolve to be a control/combo deck, and Huntmaster (and Naya) will again be a bad choice.
Who know, maybe Pod will be that combo deck?
I've added a Birthing Pod Variants section to the OP, describing and giving a description and brief guideline of the different variants that are seeing competitive play. I've thought about it and I personally don't necessarily agree with consistent/toolbox as the best way to differentiate between Birthing Pod variation. This is mainly because this thread is in the "Developing Competitive" section and I think that truly good Birthing Pod decks are much more thought out and building one is a much more intricate process than simply deciding where on the spectrum you want to be. Instead, I used Naya (Mid-range aggro), Bant (Phantasmal Image/Sun Titan), BG (Glissa/Undying). As more competitive Birthing Pod variants are developed/discovered, I will add them to the primer. I realize this is a bit of an executive decision on my part, but I hope it's agreeable by you guys. If not, I'm open to changing it or adding to it.
Next updates:
-Completing and posting the Sideboard section. I'll probably do it within the next few days.
-Revision of spells that are listed as recommendations. The way I have it now, I've included a bunch of spells that CAN be used with Birthing Pod but aren't very good. I figure since we're trying to keep this topic within the context of competitive versions of the deck, it would mean limiting the suggestions on the primer to actually competitive choices.
I am always open to suggestions for additions/improvements for the Primer. Please feel free to give any suggestions and feedback.
PS. How do we get this thing stickied?
It was a great great read though. Good work!
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Thanks, guys!
I'm on the fence on whether I should include all Birthing Pod variants or just the ones that have proven to be the most competitive. I suppose if it's a primer, it should be all-encompassing.
As for match-up and play strategy, I think I'm gonna keep the primer within the contexts of deckbuilding only. A separate thread should be made for match-up and play, which is something we definitely need.
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In other news, I played naya pod and podded into a huntmaster tonight and passed the turn. now that's value.
I would add elesh norn to the list of key cards for the bant list. As you accurately observe, bant lists tend to be a bit slower and more patient than naya ones. Because of this, I would say they actually rely more on elesh norn than their naya counterparts; you need elesh norn as a game-breaking effect to put you back ahead after you've let your opponent get ahead. I certainly can't image building a bant list without it.
2011-2012:Bantblade, BantPod
2010-2011:Bant Shaman, Naya Shaman, Naya allies + Scars, URG Turboforce
2009-2010:Naya allies, Mono-White Titan Control
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
Also, to the OP: I noticed in your BUG Pod section that you talk about Undying and BSZ allowing your undying creatures to live through the sweeper. According to this judge, with a rules quote to back it up, that's not the case and undying creatures with +1/+1 counters on them die to a BSZ > their toughness just like everything else:
http://blogs.magicjudges.org/rulestips/2012/02/undying-creatures-and-black-suns-zenith/