Considering most of the games i saw him win were aggro based, with elesh norn only really pulling one game out of his ass, i'd say good for him but wouldn't recommend it.
I know that i saw a couple ackward hands he kept he got stupid lucky to pull out of them (it seemed every one land hand he kept, he got there...) and Elesh Norn did make him lose one game i believe.
I think its fine but after trying it i wont be playing it...yet. If the meta continues to grow in green decks ill play a version similar to this due to the fact that Elesh Norn is like a Bonfire vs. Green Decks
But if u see the coverage he got extremely lucky at times, pulling his one of as his one out
I know it isn't technically a variant, but I wanted to see some discussion about the non-Kibler Pod version of Naya Pod.
Innovations:
1. Elvish Visionary -- huge, and I think this should be adopted by a number of Pod decks. Between Elvish Visionary cantrips and Borderland Ranger land searching, Pod finally has some library manipulation aside from Pod itself.
2. 3 Birthing Pod -- I guess if you are going to rely on Elesh Norn, you really should play the full set, but the Elvish Visionary might allow you to only run three.
3. 1 of Removal suite. I don't really understand how you draw it to get there....
Innovations:
1. Elvish Visionary -- huge, and I think this should be adopted by a number of Pod decks. Between Elvish Visionary cantrips and Borderland Ranger land searching, Pod finally has some library manipulation aside from Pod itself.
I've been running Elvish Visionary as a 4-of in my own Pod deck since it was spoiled in m13 and IMO it is, by far, the best 2 drop I've ever tested in the deck.
Private Mod Note
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
redthirst is redthirst, fifth Horseman of the Apocalypse. He was the leader of the Fires of Salvation, the only clan I'm aware of to get modded off the forums so hard they made their own forums.
Degenerate? Sure. Loudmouth? You bet. Law abiding? No ****ing way.
Yeah cause it draws cards.. That is the kind of advantage you want of pod if you aren't going for the creature combo kill. It's the reason Sea Gate Oracle was by far the best deck in old Pod lists, and it's the primary reason why I think 4 pods has been wrong since rotation. You need pod to be a CA engine for it to really have it's worth. Otherwise it's a repeatable GSZ. If you are using it to expand your board presence you are partially cannibalizing it at the same time. This became especially noticeable with Restoration Angel which made having the ETB's in play even better than podding them away.
What visionary does is make bigger pod more playable again. Pod has a tendency to strip threats out of your deck and not lands. While it is going you tend to do good things but draw a lot of garbage. You need the velocity to both find pod and keep creatures coming. I'm not sure Visionary is strong enough alone to do this as a 2 mana 1/1 but it's a huge shot in the arm for people who want to play dedicated Pod decks. I guess maybe 3 Pods becomes the number due to it. I don't particularly like value town but I won't deny it could be a strategy.
My biggest problem is I don't think the top end of the chain is all that relevant when the 5's are really the best cards in the format. But people will try and probably do alright despite this.
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Current Decks: GWUKnightfall Modern UWTempo Legacy UGRBurning Wish Cobra Vintage
I agree with Ryan. Everyone seems to think Podding a Thragtusk or a Monk into Inferno titan or Wurmcoil, and that into Elesh norn is big game...but why pod into a Titan when i have Sweeper resistance. Or i can just play Silverheart...which is bigger than a titan...
I've never gone above 5 drops since dropping to 2 Pods...actually thats not true. I tried Inferno Titan and i quickly swapped to silverheart as it was just better.
Elesh Norn and the 6 drops do win games at times yes, but they also lose u games when they sit in your hand due to lack of double red or lack of 6 lands (the last happening more often than u think.) in this deck going turn 1 dork turn 2 dork still makes a turn 4 titan...but it makes a turn 3 Silverheart. As long as that possibility exists, stick to the 5 drops people. Right now 5 is the new 6, and we can take SICK advantage of it
@ryansolid
I completely agree about Elvish Visionary as a 2-4x in Pod right now, either the Kibler or Durward version. This is one of the cards that Pod has been missing. The ability to Pod from 1cc mana dork into Elvish Visionary (draw 1) into Borderland Ranger (draw a land) is a tremendous amount of card advantage that Pod has not had since the old RUG Pod days of Sea Gate Oracle.
@DXI-Edge
I really like the idea of possibly playing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite since you get to remove flipped Delver of Secrets, mana dorks, Strangleroot Geist et al., but I agree with you about it getting stranded in your hand. I lost a lot of games playing the old Pod versions with high cc cards in hand, but I also didn't have Elvish Visionary OR Borderland Ranger in the old Pod versions. It bears testing at least.
Wolfir Silverheart is a Titan, but it struggles more against Vapor Snag than any other card in the deck (or any Titan for that matter).
I have to say that I have been testing this deck since I saw the list. It is very close to orginal pod builds so I have a lot of experience with it already. Here are the changes I made. Compared to the kiebler pod or aggro pod.
-3 thalia:
Moved to side. I just never liked her main. Pod is really our best tool in the deck. The deck is even designed to abuse it. She does not mesh well with pod at all.
-2 boarderland ranger:
I'll explain later
-1 Solemn, -1 Geist-Honored Monk, -1 Thragtusk:
Don't need solemn at all. I know it seems like a good pod target but most of the time I am looking for a huntmaster for life and a chump or an angel for blink. Monk just isn't what I'm looking for in my 5 drops. You really shouldn't have any issue with fliers. Resto angel holds down the fort vs any flier in standard. Thragtusk is a huge failure. I have not found any match up that is windmill slam. Your opponent cloning him is so bad for you. He is good vs bonfire decks though.
+1 Elvish Visionary:
This guy has just sent my game win% into cawblade levels. Strangleroot cannot get through splicer tokens or thalia and is horrible on our mana base. Visionary does the same job as ranger but instead of always drawing a land you draw an actual card. With my old pod build the issue was that you could stall out after turn 4 with not much action. If you drew 2-3 lands after turn 4 probably game over. You need to keep playing creatures so you can chain through with pod or keep pressure to end the game with overwhelming numbers. One of the best plays against us is kill our mana dorks just like any other deck through out history with turn 1 mana producers. This guy let me keep all kinds of hands I would have mulligan. Its about 50/50 you draw a land. So with your draw step and visionary you have a very good chance one of those cards will be a land and almost guaranteed a land with your next turn draw. The last point about it is he will pod into blade splicers. Podding ranger was never a very good play. Your only choices are a huntmaster, which is situational, and the wolf isn't impressive at all by turn 4+ or an angel you cannot get any value out of. Spamming bladesplicers while you don't lose a card in hand is usually enough to beat most decks right now.
+1 Silverheart:
Fills the same role as Geist honor monk but better. The spirit tokens aren't going to buy you enough time and Thundermaw Hellkite does exist. Silverheart usually ends the game quickly no matter what deck you are facing.
+2 Dismember:
There is still plenty of reasons you should be running this. One removal main is not an option ever. You have one game plan of spamming the board full of tokens and creatures. Board wipes make you cry and bonfire is a complete blow out for you. There is no reason not to run more removal to ensure that your opponent is on the back foot all game long.
+1 Sun Titan:
One 6 drop just isn't enough. Wurmcoil and Sun Titan have very big targets on their heads and will get shot sometimes shutting off your access to norn. I don't think either is better than the other but they are so close in effect without the same weaknesses. I like having flexible threats.
+1 Acidic Slime:
Too much value and flexible. Often enough to deter anything on the ground from attacking while you pod it away into a 6 drop. He can also deal with hexproof or a silver heart.
+1 Sublime Angel:
This guy will completely wreck some match ups. This is my go to 4 drop for pod targts. I don't always want a huntmaster or resto angel. You usually want those on turn 5-6. Angel can be played at any time and completely change the game.
+1 Daybreak Ranger:
This guy is still very good in my book. Now being easier to pod into because of more 2 drops in the deck I like him even more.
My sideboard is based on my meta and simply a fine tuning of removal and 5 drops. Dismember is really good but when its bad its worse than a dead card. A dead card doesn't cost my 4 life. 5 drops are tuned for certain match ups. I tried to balance out the deck so it isn't just pod chain or lose to board wipes. You have removal to punch through your guys. You have a tool box creature suit. The deck can really play an aggro game, mid range, or late game. Visionary is the real key it keeps my hand full, smooths out my land draws (too many times I lost games because of flood), and provides a pod fodder that is relevant.
Here's my two cents on the differences between Pod builds currently...
Kibler's list is built to be dominant in a metagame littered with Delver decks, because KiblerPod is a very tough matchup for Delver. Kibler Pod is more consistent than this deck, but it is a very mid-game grindy deck that tends to have a hard time against any bigger strategies (anything with Titans).
This list seems to be better in a more balanced metagame, because it still has a strong game against Delver but has the capacity to go over the top of many other creature decks (GR Aggro, Naya/GW Humans) with Elesh and Wurmcoil, and those cards can at least match up to the Titan decks that still pop up occasionally.
I'll be playing similar to this list at FNM tomorrow... I'm not sure if I want to play the O-Ring as Caleb did or switch it out for Dismember, though.
I have a few questions about this list. The first, is it possible to move up to 3 Bonfire of the Damned. I really think 3 is the right number because it is too good clearing the way for your golems and stealing games in addition to putting your opponent back a few turns if they drop more than one mana dork. What would get the cut to get these in?
Also, how necessary are the visionaries? What is the right number here?
And finally, what does everyone think of the naya rancor builds as they compare to pod variants. What are the strengths and weaknesses, and at this point would it be advisable to go naya rancor with SoFaF if you feel your meta will be a few Wizard Delvers and a lot of Green aggro variants?
And finally, what does everyone think of the naya rancor builds as they compare to pod variants. What are the strengths and weaknesses, and at this point would it be advisable to go naya rancor with SoFaF if you feel your meta will be a few Wizard Delvers and a lot of Green aggro variants?
I don't think rancor is playable at all until rotation. Since I have been playing pod for a good 6 months now I wanted to know immediately if I had a bad match up vs rancor. Blade Splicer runs all over rancor decks.
I had been playing mono green for a long time in my local meta as a switch out to pod every now and then. I get a lot hate from sideboards no matter what deck I pick. People are out to beat me every week. We have that kind of group though where you have a few strong players and then every one else.
I did a lot of testing mono green rancor vs naya pod. Pod has such an overwhelming match up to the deck. I was very surprised. The only way you lose is if they rip a Revenge of the Hunted turn 3 or after.
I have a few questions about this list. The first, is it possible to move up to 3 Bonfire of the Damned. I really think 3 is the right number because it is too good clearing the way for your golems and stealing games in addition to putting your opponent back a few turns if they drop more than one mana dork. What would get the cut to get these in?
Also, how necessary are the visionaries? What is the right number here?
And finally, what does everyone think of the naya rancor builds as they compare to pod variants. What are the strengths and weaknesses, and at this point would it be advisable to go naya rancor with SoFaF if you feel your meta will be a few Wizard Delvers and a lot of Green aggro variants?
I've recently switched to 3x Bonfire main in the Kibler variant and I feel it's completely reasonable to consider this for most any Pod build. I felt the two-of removal spells in the MB were a little awkward, so I switched over to Bonfire and upped it to three by pulling a single Thalia to the side for less creature dense match ups.
Visionary seems like the needed replacement for Strangelroot Geist. 2-3 is what everyone is revolving around ATM.
Rancor is underwhelming and completely unnecessary is our mid-range builds IMO. I've played games against it and it feels very low impact. Aggressive cards like Rancor and SoFaF (and more so SoWaP) are more effective in an aggressive build like R/G. Though, I'm not sure I would even want Rancor in my R/G.
2 guys at FNM went 4-0-1 with the deck tonight. I chose to Audible to UW Talrand and went 3-2. Deck was fine but..ya.
I audibled due to seeing 4 Mono-Black Control decks, and i was getting wrecked by them. The 2 guys collectively played 1 MBC deck, and i played one with delver, crushing it.
I always do this and next week I'm probably just gonna play Naya. I SHOULD play Naya...
Got to have ways of dealing with blood artist. Seems like as long as I can kill BA I will not lose that match. Post board you have to draw really bad to lose. Purge and streamline removal should be enough. Huntmaster and daybreak ranger are very good in that match up.
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the relevation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft
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4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Blade Splicer
2 Borderland Ranger
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Restoration Angel
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Geist-Honored Monk
1 Thragtusk
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Gavony Township
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Mortarpod
1 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Acidic Slime
2 Hero of Bladehold
1 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Act of Aggression
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Celestial Purge
1 Crushing Vines
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
That is one spicy list, complete with the full 7cc curve and 3 Birthing Pods!
I am currently reading coverage, since I could not watch the event live while playing!
EDIT: Caleb mentions how Melira was useless!
How well does this deck stack up against the metagame?
I know that i saw a couple ackward hands he kept he got stupid lucky to pull out of them (it seemed every one land hand he kept, he got there...) and Elesh Norn did make him lose one game i believe.
I think its fine but after trying it i wont be playing it...yet. If the meta continues to grow in green decks ill play a version similar to this due to the fact that Elesh Norn is like a Bonfire vs. Green Decks
But if u see the coverage he got extremely lucky at times, pulling his one of as his one out
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
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xRxAffinityxRx
He said his friends talked him into it.
I wouldn't call this a variant, it's just the old 7cc chain style. I can't say I watched much of the stream though.
... If I only had a nickel
she doesn't stop literaly half the cards you listed...
mutilate and tragic slip do not give creatures -1/-1 counters and the effect will still kill the creatures.
RWGNaya AggroGWR
UBZombiesUB
BBBFNM Mono-Black ControlBBB
Innovations:
1. Elvish Visionary -- huge, and I think this should be adopted by a number of Pod decks. Between Elvish Visionary cantrips and Borderland Ranger land searching, Pod finally has some library manipulation aside from Pod itself.
2. 3 Birthing Pod -- I guess if you are going to rely on Elesh Norn, you really should play the full set, but the Elvish Visionary might allow you to only run three.
3. 1 of Removal suite. I don't really understand how you draw it to get there....
I would like to test this list a little more....
I've been running Elvish Visionary as a 4-of in my own Pod deck since it was spoiled in m13 and IMO it is, by far, the best 2 drop I've ever tested in the deck.
—Jaya Ballard, task mage
What visionary does is make bigger pod more playable again. Pod has a tendency to strip threats out of your deck and not lands. While it is going you tend to do good things but draw a lot of garbage. You need the velocity to both find pod and keep creatures coming. I'm not sure Visionary is strong enough alone to do this as a 2 mana 1/1 but it's a huge shot in the arm for people who want to play dedicated Pod decks. I guess maybe 3 Pods becomes the number due to it. I don't particularly like value town but I won't deny it could be a strategy.
My biggest problem is I don't think the top end of the chain is all that relevant when the 5's are really the best cards in the format. But people will try and probably do alright despite this.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I've never gone above 5 drops since dropping to 2 Pods...actually thats not true. I tried Inferno Titan and i quickly swapped to silverheart as it was just better.
Elesh Norn and the 6 drops do win games at times yes, but they also lose u games when they sit in your hand due to lack of double red or lack of 6 lands (the last happening more often than u think.) in this deck going turn 1 dork turn 2 dork still makes a turn 4 titan...but it makes a turn 3 Silverheart. As long as that possibility exists, stick to the 5 drops people. Right now 5 is the new 6, and we can take SICK advantage of it
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
I completely agree about Elvish Visionary as a 2-4x in Pod right now, either the Kibler or Durward version. This is one of the cards that Pod has been missing. The ability to Pod from 1cc mana dork into Elvish Visionary (draw 1) into Borderland Ranger (draw a land) is a tremendous amount of card advantage that Pod has not had since the old RUG Pod days of Sea Gate Oracle.
@DXI-Edge
I really like the idea of possibly playing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite since you get to remove flipped Delver of Secrets, mana dorks, Strangleroot Geist et al., but I agree with you about it getting stranded in your hand. I lost a lot of games playing the old Pod versions with high cc cards in hand, but I also didn't have Elvish Visionary OR Borderland Ranger in the old Pod versions. It bears testing at least.
Wolfir Silverheart is a Titan, but it struggles more against Vapor Snag than any other card in the deck (or any Titan for that matter).
Nope, it was just stupid good all weekend. Only match I lost in standard was to the guy with Bant Pod (who also ran elesh norn).
How was the list for you throughout the weekend? any changes?
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
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xRxAffinityxRx
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Is Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite so good that you think Kibler's version of Pod is inherently worse than your own?
I am definitely interested in hearing your opinion on the matter....
-3 thalia:
Moved to side. I just never liked her main. Pod is really our best tool in the deck. The deck is even designed to abuse it. She does not mesh well with pod at all.
-2 boarderland ranger:
I'll explain later
-1 Solemn, -1 Geist-Honored Monk, -1 Thragtusk:
Don't need solemn at all. I know it seems like a good pod target but most of the time I am looking for a huntmaster for life and a chump or an angel for blink. Monk just isn't what I'm looking for in my 5 drops. You really shouldn't have any issue with fliers. Resto angel holds down the fort vs any flier in standard. Thragtusk is a huge failure. I have not found any match up that is windmill slam. Your opponent cloning him is so bad for you. He is good vs bonfire decks though.
+1 Elvish Visionary:
This guy has just sent my game win% into cawblade levels. Strangleroot cannot get through splicer tokens or thalia and is horrible on our mana base. Visionary does the same job as ranger but instead of always drawing a land you draw an actual card. With my old pod build the issue was that you could stall out after turn 4 with not much action. If you drew 2-3 lands after turn 4 probably game over. You need to keep playing creatures so you can chain through with pod or keep pressure to end the game with overwhelming numbers. One of the best plays against us is kill our mana dorks just like any other deck through out history with turn 1 mana producers. This guy let me keep all kinds of hands I would have mulligan. Its about 50/50 you draw a land. So with your draw step and visionary you have a very good chance one of those cards will be a land and almost guaranteed a land with your next turn draw. The last point about it is he will pod into blade splicers. Podding ranger was never a very good play. Your only choices are a huntmaster, which is situational, and the wolf isn't impressive at all by turn 4+ or an angel you cannot get any value out of. Spamming bladesplicers while you don't lose a card in hand is usually enough to beat most decks right now.
+1 Silverheart:
Fills the same role as Geist honor monk but better. The spirit tokens aren't going to buy you enough time and Thundermaw Hellkite does exist. Silverheart usually ends the game quickly no matter what deck you are facing.
+2 Dismember:
There is still plenty of reasons you should be running this. One removal main is not an option ever. You have one game plan of spamming the board full of tokens and creatures. Board wipes make you cry and bonfire is a complete blow out for you. There is no reason not to run more removal to ensure that your opponent is on the back foot all game long.
+1 Sun Titan:
One 6 drop just isn't enough. Wurmcoil and Sun Titan have very big targets on their heads and will get shot sometimes shutting off your access to norn. I don't think either is better than the other but they are so close in effect without the same weaknesses. I like having flexible threats.
+1 Acidic Slime:
Too much value and flexible. Often enough to deter anything on the ground from attacking while you pod it away into a 6 drop. He can also deal with hexproof or a silver heart.
+1 Sublime Angel:
This guy will completely wreck some match ups. This is my go to 4 drop for pod targts. I don't always want a huntmaster or resto angel. You usually want those on turn 5-6. Angel can be played at any time and completely change the game.
+1 Daybreak Ranger:
This guy is still very good in my book. Now being easier to pod into because of more 2 drops in the deck I like him even more.
My sideboard is based on my meta and simply a fine tuning of removal and 5 drops. Dismember is really good but when its bad its worse than a dead card. A dead card doesn't cost my 4 life. 5 drops are tuned for certain match ups. I tried to balance out the deck so it isn't just pod chain or lose to board wipes. You have removal to punch through your guys. You have a tool box creature suit. The deck can really play an aggro game, mid range, or late game. Visionary is the real key it keeps my hand full, smooths out my land draws (too many times I lost games because of flood), and provides a pod fodder that is relevant.
Kibler's list is built to be dominant in a metagame littered with Delver decks, because KiblerPod is a very tough matchup for Delver. Kibler Pod is more consistent than this deck, but it is a very mid-game grindy deck that tends to have a hard time against any bigger strategies (anything with Titans).
This list seems to be better in a more balanced metagame, because it still has a strong game against Delver but has the capacity to go over the top of many other creature decks (GR Aggro, Naya/GW Humans) with Elesh and Wurmcoil, and those cards can at least match up to the Titan decks that still pop up occasionally.
I'll be playing similar to this list at FNM tomorrow... I'm not sure if I want to play the O-Ring as Caleb did or switch it out for Dismember, though.
Modern:
:symu::symw::symr: UWr Geist :symr::symw::symu:
EDH:
:symb::symb::symr::symr: Rakdos, Lord of Riots :symr::symr::symb::symb:
Also, how necessary are the visionaries? What is the right number here?
And finally, what does everyone think of the naya rancor builds as they compare to pod variants. What are the strengths and weaknesses, and at this point would it be advisable to go naya rancor with SoFaF if you feel your meta will be a few Wizard Delvers and a lot of Green aggro variants?
I don't think rancor is playable at all until rotation. Since I have been playing pod for a good 6 months now I wanted to know immediately if I had a bad match up vs rancor. Blade Splicer runs all over rancor decks.
I had been playing mono green for a long time in my local meta as a switch out to pod every now and then. I get a lot hate from sideboards no matter what deck I pick. People are out to beat me every week. We have that kind of group though where you have a few strong players and then every one else.
I did a lot of testing mono green rancor vs naya pod. Pod has such an overwhelming match up to the deck. I was very surprised. The only way you lose is if they rip a Revenge of the Hunted turn 3 or after.
I've recently switched to 3x Bonfire main in the Kibler variant and I feel it's completely reasonable to consider this for most any Pod build. I felt the two-of removal spells in the MB were a little awkward, so I switched over to Bonfire and upped it to three by pulling a single Thalia to the side for less creature dense match ups.
Visionary seems like the needed replacement for Strangelroot Geist. 2-3 is what everyone is revolving around ATM.
Rancor is underwhelming and completely unnecessary is our mid-range builds IMO. I've played games against it and it feels very low impact. Aggressive cards like Rancor and SoFaF (and more so SoWaP) are more effective in an aggressive build like R/G. Though, I'm not sure I would even want Rancor in my R/G.
Current Decks
Standard:
GWB Junk Midrange BWG
RWB Mardu Midrange BWR
Modern:
GWB Angel Pod BWG
I audibled due to seeing 4 Mono-Black Control decks, and i was getting wrecked by them. The 2 guys collectively played 1 MBC deck, and i played one with delver, crushing it.
I always do this and next week I'm probably just gonna play Naya. I SHOULD play Naya...
we'll see lol
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
"Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality that we shall either go mad from the relevation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age." H.P. Lovecraft