I'm running a RG Werewolves and dragons deck atm, and I haven't gotten to really test it at a FNM yet. I was wondering if it could be possibly competitive. See, my meta is somewhat creature heavy, it just left the whole lame repetitive counter your opponents creatures, pick a Titan and Phantasmal Image it SolarFlare phase, and has moved on into Black mortarpod zombies, Naya Pod, the rare WolfRunRamp and the like. Anyways, I know that the old werewolf decks evolved into the Wolfrun Ramp Decks. But Anyways, The point is, can they be competitive in this type of meta? Most of the decks I see seem to be netdecked from top tier decks, minus Delver(Delver decks never made it into my meta). Pikes are rare too. A few of the decks are honest, made for the fun of the game decks though. But, can a midrange RG Werewolf deck be competitive in this type of meta?
TBH the only werewolf really worth playing is huntmaster of the fells. A lot of these decks can play 2 spells and flip your guys over, where they are subpar...
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True, but cards like Mayor of Avabruck boost more than just werewolves, and then there's Immurwolf too, that prevent flipping back into human state, though he's a removal magnet. Even if you play 2 spells yourself in main phase 1, you can still get to attack and gain the benefits of those spells and get in an all out attack, if opportune. There are a lot of werewolf lords, or at least for the human and wolf sides combined, anyway. Besides, I'm not talking about a full werewolf deck, just mostly themed that way. Besides, the meta has forgotten werewolves right? Huntmaster is great because you get something good whenever you flip him, but idk of I could afford him to play him. Thanks for your input bro.
True, but cards like Mayor of Avabruck boost more than just werewolves, and then there's Immurwolf too, that prevent flipping back into human state, though he's a removal magnet. Even if you play 2 spells yourself in main phase 1, you can still get to attack and gain the benefits of those spells and get in an all out attack, if opportune. There are a lot of werewolf lords, or at least for the human and wolf sides combined, anyway. Besides, I'm not talking about a full werewolf deck, just mostly themed that way. Besides, the meta has forgotten werewolves right? Huntmaster is great because you get something good whenever you flip him, but idk of I could afford him to play him. Thanks for your input bro.
I guess, but huntmaster would be the centerpiece of the deck, he does so much good work
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I guess, but huntmaster would be the centerpiece of the deck, he does so much good work
I imagine that in a true werewolves deck you would want to focus less on huntmaster and more on an aggressive curve with tribal support. Something like t1 Young Wolf / Wolfbitten Captive, t2 Mayor of Avabruck / Gatstaf Howler, and t3 Immerwolf / Full Moon Rise. That's not to say Huntmaster isn't a great finisher but I think a werewolves deck could win without him.
You just described the worst possible meta for a werewolf deck. Delver infested metas, as well as control infested metas are the two best places to play a werewolf deck.
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There's a werewolf player at my LGS. He's got all the right cards. Huntmaster, Gatstaf, Immerwolf, Mayor, Moonmist, Full Moon's Rise, Hanweir Watchkeep. He rarely finishes 2-2, usually 1-3. My meta is full of RG Aggro, Zombie and Naya Pod, a few Tier 1 inspired decks (if not outright netdecks) and a few janky decks. It's just not competitive enough. He has a lot of fun playing it, though.
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I had a pretty good record when I played my werewolves for 3 weeks during Dark Ascension I think willing nine matches and only losing 3 in sanction play (going 3 and 1 every week). Once dark ascension came through though the deck was nowhere near as efective mainly because of the rise in Restoration Angel and Blade splicer.
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Well I wish to be enthusiastic about this being a werewolf player ever since i started playing the game. I think it could, its just got to be REALLY aggresive with a back up plan as well as protection. You're right werewolf decks can win without huntmaster as I have proven myself on this notion. Ideally you're gonna want to run stuff that gets you to hit the ground running. R/G has some removal and artifact hate like Oxxada guy and Naturilze, so POD and Mortapod shouldnt be a problem. If you're not looking for a clean cut werewolf deck then i'd suggest getting in some Strangleroot Geist and Acidic Slime. Maybe some essence of the green side of wolf run could get some really cool stuff out. Also micing in some good red human stuff like Thatchers revolt and Zealous Conscripts. Maybe have a way to easily combat out of having your werewolves turned back into humans. Like running a G/W or G/W/R human shell type of thing. The old one that used good ol' Hamlet Captain. Board wipes like Blasphemous Act and Bonfire looks good. Maybe some land destruction with Acidic Slime. These are the things in my head when I really want to try and win at my FNM with werewolves. Dont forget the Wolfirs! They both work really well! I also like the idea of Soulbond werewolves. Like the pump up ones. And as a good card to "Replace" the mighty Huntmaster, I dont mind using Instigator Gang as a four of! Just saying. Post back any response! This tweaked my interest!
Well I wish to be enthusiastic about this being a werewolf player ever since i started playing the game. I think it could, its just got to be REALLY aggresive with a back up plan as well as protection. You're right werewolf decks can win without huntmaster as I have proven myself on this notion. Ideally you're gonna want to run stuff that gets you to hit the ground running. R/G has some removal and artifact hate like Oxxada guy and Naturilze, so POD and Mortapod shouldnt be a problem. If you're not looking for a clean cut werewolf deck then i'd suggest getting in some Strangleroot Geist and Acidic Slime. Maybe some essence of the green side of wolf run could get some really cool stuff out. Also micing in some good red human stuff like Thatchers revolt and Zealous Conscripts. Maybe have a way to easily combat out of having your werewolves turned back into humans. Like running a G/W or G/W/R human shell type of thing. The old one that used good ol' Hamlet Captain. Board wipes like Blasphemous Act and Bonfire looks good. Maybe some land destruction with Acidic Slime. These are the things in my head when I really want to try and win at my FNM with werewolves. Dont forget the Wolfirs! They both work really well! I also like the idea of Soulbond werewolves. Like the pump up ones. And as a good card to "Replace" the mighty Huntmaster, I dont mind using Instigator Gang as a four of! Just saying. Post back any response! This tweaked my interest!
Simply put, the meta you described of Naya Pod, Naya Aggro GR Aggro, WRR is essentially game over for any attempt at running Werewolves.
I don't mean to dissuade you from brewing and playing your own deck, but I would be doing you a disservice if I pretended you weren't trying to take a tier 3 aggro deck into a meta of tier 1 and 2 aggro decks.
It's not just Werewolves that faces this problem, but all Tribal deck types in Standard. "Humans" lists are the closest to true tribal, but even they have to pull in a few additional creature types (namely everyone's favorite Angel) to actually be competitive.
Werewolves can be fun, and it can steal games. I've lost against it in the past while piloting a T1 deck because of a quick start and Moonmist putting me way behind. Unfortuantely, from what I've seen (we have a werewolves player at our LGS as well) if you don't hit Moonmist, or catch any early disruption, you're just dead to more efficient, more effective decks.
GR Aggro does exactly what you want (beat face) but does so faster and more efficiently. Naya Aggro and Naya Pod simply go a step bigger than you and are answering you with MUCH higher Card Quality. WRR simply goes over the top of you after Ramp>Sweeper>Ramp>Titan.
Keep brewing and testing though. It's always more fun to play your own creation than running some stock list. Just be aware of your archetype, your decks strengths and weaknesses, and don't run it into a field that has a huge advantage over you.
Nit Pick - Wolf Run Ramp didn't evolve from Werewolves. It evolved from Valakut and the green-based ramp decks of the past. It just happens to get the best use out of Kessig's namesake land.
Keep brewing and testing though. It's always more fun to play your own creation than running some stock list.
That's just opinion, and I tend to disagree. Playing stocklists is the best way to learn what real power is, gives you insight in the mind of a great deckbuilder, and wins you games. Those all help in improving your decks in the future.
The best way to learn how weak a card is, is to crunch them underfoot.
I imagine that in a true werewolves deck you would want to focus less on huntmaster and more on an aggressive curve with tribal support. Something like t1 Young Wolf / Wolfbitten Captive, t2 Mayor of Avabruck / Gatstaf Howler, and t3 Immerwolf / Full Moon Rise. That's not to say Huntmaster isn't a great finisher but I think a werewolves deck could win without him.
I agree, but what do I know, I only play rogue decks based on my fave cards balefire dragon, Blood artist... Basically dragons and Johnny cards. Never win, but I do always play semi complete decks :/
That's just opinion, and I tend to disagree. Playing stocklists is the best way to learn what real power is, gives you insight in the mind of a great deckbuilder, and wins you games. Those all help in improving your decks in the future.
The best way to learn how weak a card is, is to crunch them underfoot.
I disagree, though I can see where your opinion would come from: winning is always fun, but I disagree with net decking: it takes zero skill to copy someone else's deck, So Zero creativity, Zero deck building skill, and nearly zero skill period; your copying another guys strategy. However, of you make the deck toe own, through improvement and whatnot, it can take some skill, especially to change how t plays and still be competitive. I strongly dislike Spike
There's a werewolf player at my LGS. He's got all the right cards. Huntmaster, Gatstaf, Immerwolf, Mayor, Moonmist, Full Moon's Rise, Hanweir Watchkeep. He rarely finishes 2-2, usually 1-3. My meta is full of RG Aggro, Zombie and Naya Pod, a few Tier 1 inspired decks (if not outright netdecks) and a few janky decks. It's just not competitive enough. He has a lot of fun playing it, though.
Actually, you just described a bunch of bad cards in that deck.
I played Werewolves at a Grand Prix, started 4-2, losing both game 3s closely on top deck wars (1 to WolfrunRamp, the other to Mono Red which is a good matchup, just drew too many lands).
I eventually lost a round due to improperly shuffling my deck. Somehow, one of cards in my deck was facing up, instead of down (im not talking about an improperly flipped card, I mean when I went to draw a card, the card underneath it was staring back at me face up). Dont know how that happened.....
I played 4 BoP and 4 Wolfbitten Captive. Llanowar Elves MIGHT be better, but the red fix is helpful.
The deck doesnt have a lot of good two drops, so eschewing that to get to the plethora of 3 drops is key. The werewolf archer and the first striker are good. Instigator Gang is absolutely nutty if it flips, and isnt that bad when it doesnt, it still buffs your team a decent amount. Immerwolf is amazing, as is Mayor.
The problem with the deck is, a Ratchet Bomb wipes out your team if they are flipped. Two mana Plague Winds are hard to beat. If your meta doesnt see many of them, or you just get lucky enough to avoid it, Werewolf aggro decks are competitive, and have one of the better matchups against Delver, I personally went 3-0 against it, even winning a game on a mull to 4.
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This guy, would either eat up several turns worth of mana to get a slow permanent that relies on your already have some board presence (after wasting said mana), or dies without generating any advantage.
There's a werewolf player at my LGS. He's got all the right cards. Huntmaster, Gatstaf, Immerwolf, Mayor, Moonmist, Full Moon's Rise, Hanweir Watchkeep. He rarely finishes 2-2, usually 1-3. My meta is full of RG Aggro, Zombie and Naya Pod, a few Tier 1 inspired decks (if not outright netdecks) and a few janky decks. It's just not competitive enough. He has a lot of fun playing it, though.
Gastaf and Watchkeep? Those are far from the "right" cards.
I imagine that in a true werewolves deck you would want to focus less on huntmaster and more on an aggressive curve with tribal support. Something like t1 Young Wolf / Wolfbitten Captive, t2 Mayor of Avabruck / Gatstaf Howler, and t3 Immerwolf / Full Moon Rise. That's not to say Huntmaster isn't a great finisher but I think a werewolves deck could win without him.
I've long been in love with this archetype and have done a lot of testing. Going full blown aggro with werewolves is a bad idea and is the initial reason most of us realized we needed to be G/R not R/G. A primarily G, mid-rangey list is in the end is the most optimal one. Is is competitive by definition but obviously not top tier. Huntmaster is extremely necessary as well.
Well, moonmist is a very powerful card that gives werewolves an instant speed trick to dodge removal, force bad blocks, or just fog the opponents, so I've always felt there could be something there. The main issue before was having to skip your turn to flip your werewolves was such a brutal tempo loss that if your opponent flipped them back, it was over. I actually think werewolves got a neat new tool though to at least try out that I haven't seen mentioned here: Yeva.
She isn't a werewolf herself, but she allows you to pass the turn w/o wasting your mana, and once she's in play you can ALWAYS skip casting anything on your turn to ensure your werewolves are always flipped on your opponent's turn. They won't be able to cast two spells to flip them back indefinitely, and forcing them to do so in and of itself is pretty nice especially when there's no cost to do so. Lastly, she enables some pretty broken surprise plays, like flashing instigator gang EOT and moonmisting on yours. The problem with instigator gang before was he's so explosive flipped (you basically win if you attack w/him) that no one would ever let you do so. Being able to flash him in allows you to do so. Similarly, flashing in immerwolf EOT after your opponent has tapped out casting two spells to flip your werewolves is pretty sweet, or even mid-combat to surprise pump your team.
I don't think Yeva makes it a Tier 1 deck, but when you consider all of the above interactions I think she's pretty much an auto-include. I wouldn't be embarassed to run her as a 3-4 of despite the legend rule because once your opponents realize what she does for the deck, she'll eat their removal so having a backup isn't the worst. If you have an extra in hand and they aren't killing her, then you're probably winning anyway. Alternatively, you could run her as a 1-2 of along with green sun's zenith, but tutoring her with green sun's is a lot worse since you can't pass to flip your wolves then cast her.
I've long been in love with this archetype and have done a lot of testing. Going full blown aggro with werewolves is a bad idea and is the initial reason most of us realized we needed to be G/R not R/G. A primarily G, mid-rangey list is in the end is the most optimal one. Is is competitive by definition but obviously not top tier. Huntmaster is extremely necessary as well.
I have been testing this tribe, and trying to find what exactly they do best, and when testing aggro variants, I found it much stronger than mid range lists. The trick is to extend as quickly as possible, forcing the opponent to either extend as quickly as the werewolf player, or fall behind. If they keep up, they run out of cards and the werewolves flip. If they conserve, the werewolf player is ahead in board position, and doesn't have much to worry about. I go between 2-2 and 3-1 with this tactic so it must have something right.
One of the stronger tribal cards for Werewolves is full moon's rise. Completely negating ratchet bomb, as well as bonfire of the damned. Not an insignificant effect. Sure, a lot of the creatures are mediocre at best, but at least they don't die to anything relevant. Then again, huntmaster of the fells, daybreak ranger and mayor of Avabruck are hardly mediocre.
But optimization is not the topic of this thread, and I am sorry, but the deck can not compete in the meta described in the OP. That is one rough meta, and and my sympathies go out to you.
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Ummm thought Yeva's effect was only for green creatures and instigator gang is red.
yeah I brainfarted, for some reason I remembered Yeva affecting all creatures. Makes my suggestion quite a bit worse, though still should be taken under consideration since you can flash in huntmaster, immerwolf, mayor, etc.
Unfortuantely, from what I've seen (we have a werewolves player at our LGS as well) if you don't hit Moonmist, or catch any early disruption, you're just dead to more efficient, more effective decks.
Honestly this can be said for a lot of Tier one decks I hope you know. Not just werewolves... A LOT! lol I've played against Tier one and two decks with my own werewolf deck. If you can get damage in early with all those one drops or ramp up you're in decent shape. Even without disruption because in case you haven't noticed. A dedicated R/G WW doesnt have much removal unless you put it in!
Even though this is a very competitive format, there are a ton of decks that still have a place in this race. We face tidal waves of Delver, and control. But that shouldn't stop anyone from wanting to play different and creative builds in this world of grey! Be the one random color!
Honestly this can be said for a lot of Tier one decks I hope you know. Not just werewolves... A LOT! lol I've played against Tier one and two decks with my own werewolf deck. If you can get damage in early with all those one drops or ramp up you're in decent shape. Even without disruption because in case you haven't noticed. A dedicated R/G WW doesnt have much removal unless you put it in!
Even though this is a very competitive format, there are a ton of decks that still have a place in this race. We face tidal waves of Delver, and control. But that shouldn't stop anyone from wanting to play different and creative builds in this world of grey! Be the one random color!
The difference between competitive decks and the rest of the field of really fun, niche decks, is that they don't have to hit a SPECIFIC card to win consistently. Naya Aggro for instance, my list plays out a number of different ways depending on what cards I see, and while the overall strategy never really changes, I don't auto-lost to not seeing a Huntmaster, or a Blade Splicer, or any 1 card in particular. Moonmist is that card for Werewolves.
The truth is, when you look at the Tier 1 decks, Delver, Naya, GR, and MAYBE Zombies (1.5?) they are either VERY resilient, or in the case of Delver, overwhelming card filtering/advantage to the point where they aren't missing any key cards.
Yes, Werewolves can win games at FNM. It can beat lesser players running Tier 1 decks. Are you going to be able to Day 2 a GP with it? Not without the stars aligning, Angels parting the sky, and... well, you get the point.
Another side note... Immerwolf, one of the most liked lords of Werewolves, Negatively affects Huntmaster, the undeniably best Werewolf.
Simply put, it's a Tribal deck that doesn't have the card quality throughout to be competitive outside of some FNM wins. If you're just trying to go 3-1 at FNM, have a blast with it. I mean... the game is supposed to be fun, especially at the FNM level. But to be competitive at major tournaments, well.. that's why GR Aggro and Naya exist, they took the colors and filled decks with high card quality instead of forcing sub-par cards that happen to fit the theme.
One thing we thoroughly agree on is being creative and brewing new decks and trying new things. During Delver's more oppressive reign (which people should realize by now is over... it's a good deck but it's not dominating anything now), my only real frustration with the deck was that I couldn't seem to get paired up against it at tournaments.
Caw Blade may have been the exemption, but typically when one deck is sitting on top in standard for any length of time, it's simply because people have become lazy and stopped trying new ideas. As soon as AVR came out, Naya Humans was what I wanted to build. It wasn't very good at first, and as time went on it saw less attention because I was trying out other strategies... but then, my love for Naya made me come back around and abandon the "humans" theory and just focus on individual cards that were good along the curve. Sure... still ended up with a bunch of humans since well... there's a lot of good ones lol.
SCG had an article recently that really summed up what I've been saying... Something to the tune of not being afriad to try your ideas, but also not being afraid to let go of them when it's not able to work. I've played both with and against Werewolves, and decided it was time to move on.
Mind you... doesn't help that WOTC isn't printing new Werewolves either, so you are forced to play an out of date creature base, ignoring better cards, or moving away from the tribal theme.
The truth is, when you look at the Tier 1 decks, Delver, Naya, GR, and MAYBE Zombies (1.5?) they are either VERY resilient, or in the case of Delver, overwhelming card filtering/advantage to the point where they aren't missing any key cards.
How many tournaments does zombies have to win before people start respecting it as a Tier 1 deck? There seems to be this irrational disdain for tribal strategies among Spikes that leads to a deck like Zombies not getting respect despite having taken down dozens of massive tournaments. I would understand the 1.5 rating if it simply showed up in a lot of Top 8's but never placed 1st, but that just isn't the case, especially in recent weeks as lists continue to be tuned.
How many tournaments does zombies have to win before people start respecting it as a Tier 1 deck? There seems to be this irrational disdain for tribal strategies among Spikes that leads to a deck like Zombies not getting respect despite having taken down dozens of massive tournaments. I would understand the 1.5 rating if it simply showed up in a lot of Top 8's but never placed 1st, but that just isn't the case, especially in recent weeks as lists continue to be tuned.
The 1.5 is simply because Zombies is actually pretty easy to hate out with relatively common Sideboard Cards like O Ring and Purge. It's on the edge for me. Reason being, it shows up, wins an event, then doesn't top 8 the next 3-4 events, gets overlooked, wins an event, doesn't top 8 a few, gets overlooked, etc.
Make no mistake. I'm a fan of the Zombies deck. Ran UB Zombies for about a month and loved it. A little inconsistent at times, but powerful and almost unstoppable on it's nut draws. When it misses... oh boy does it miss.
While it has put up a number of good finishes and taken down some tournaments, it doesn't do so consistently. It takes one, misses a couple, takes one. Delver, Naya, GR are basically in every top 8 in some variation.
It's not hate, it's just setting the bar a bit high for what is Tier 1. I wouldn't blink if someone told me they were sleeving up Zombies for a GP or PTQ. It's a good archetype (interstingly enough, made playable by non-zombies lol).
But optimization is not the topic of this thread, and I am sorry, but the deck can not compete in the meta described in the OP. That is one rough meta, and and my sympathies go out to you.
You ain't kidding bro, it's hard as heck, and every once in a while, we get ex PTer's. But anyway, the reg/big players are tough because they have access to all of the cards needed for their decks to run optimal, unlike the newbs, noobs, intermediate, andjust for fun players. A good few are net decked, but not all however. Anyway, anyone know what decks rank the top 2-3 tiers are anyway?
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I guess, but huntmaster would be the centerpiece of the deck, he does so much good work
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I imagine that in a true werewolves deck you would want to focus less on huntmaster and more on an aggressive curve with tribal support. Something like t1 Young Wolf / Wolfbitten Captive, t2 Mayor of Avabruck / Gatstaf Howler, and t3 Immerwolf / Full Moon Rise. That's not to say Huntmaster isn't a great finisher but I think a werewolves deck could win without him.
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Simply put, the meta you described of Naya Pod, Naya Aggro GR Aggro, WRR is essentially game over for any attempt at running Werewolves.
I don't mean to dissuade you from brewing and playing your own deck, but I would be doing you a disservice if I pretended you weren't trying to take a tier 3 aggro deck into a meta of tier 1 and 2 aggro decks.
It's not just Werewolves that faces this problem, but all Tribal deck types in Standard. "Humans" lists are the closest to true tribal, but even they have to pull in a few additional creature types (namely everyone's favorite Angel) to actually be competitive.
Werewolves can be fun, and it can steal games. I've lost against it in the past while piloting a T1 deck because of a quick start and Moonmist putting me way behind. Unfortuantely, from what I've seen (we have a werewolves player at our LGS as well) if you don't hit Moonmist, or catch any early disruption, you're just dead to more efficient, more effective decks.
GR Aggro does exactly what you want (beat face) but does so faster and more efficiently. Naya Aggro and Naya Pod simply go a step bigger than you and are answering you with MUCH higher Card Quality. WRR simply goes over the top of you after Ramp>Sweeper>Ramp>Titan.
Keep brewing and testing though. It's always more fun to play your own creation than running some stock list. Just be aware of your archetype, your decks strengths and weaknesses, and don't run it into a field that has a huge advantage over you.
Nit Pick - Wolf Run Ramp didn't evolve from Werewolves. It evolved from Valakut and the green-based ramp decks of the past. It just happens to get the best use out of Kessig's namesake land.
That's just opinion, and I tend to disagree. Playing stocklists is the best way to learn what real power is, gives you insight in the mind of a great deckbuilder, and wins you games. Those all help in improving your decks in the future.
The best way to learn how weak a card is, is to crunch them underfoot.
I agree, but what do I know, I only play rogue decks based on my fave cards balefire dragon, Blood artist... Basically dragons and Johnny cards. Never win, but I do always play semi complete decks :/
I disagree, though I can see where your opinion would come from: winning is always fun, but I disagree with net decking: it takes zero skill to copy someone else's deck, So Zero creativity, Zero deck building skill, and nearly zero skill period; your copying another guys strategy. However, of you make the deck toe own, through improvement and whatnot, it can take some skill, especially to change how t plays and still be competitive. I strongly dislike Spike
Actually, you just described a bunch of bad cards in that deck.
I played Werewolves at a Grand Prix, started 4-2, losing both game 3s closely on top deck wars (1 to WolfrunRamp, the other to Mono Red which is a good matchup, just drew too many lands).
I eventually lost a round due to improperly shuffling my deck. Somehow, one of cards in my deck was facing up, instead of down (im not talking about an improperly flipped card, I mean when I went to draw a card, the card underneath it was staring back at me face up). Dont know how that happened.....
I played 4 BoP and 4 Wolfbitten Captive. Llanowar Elves MIGHT be better, but the red fix is helpful.
The deck doesnt have a lot of good two drops, so eschewing that to get to the plethora of 3 drops is key. The werewolf archer and the first striker are good. Instigator Gang is absolutely nutty if it flips, and isnt that bad when it doesnt, it still buffs your team a decent amount. Immerwolf is amazing, as is Mayor.
The problem with the deck is, a Ratchet Bomb wipes out your team if they are flipped. Two mana Plague Winds are hard to beat. If your meta doesnt see many of them, or you just get lucky enough to avoid it, Werewolf aggro decks are competitive, and have one of the better matchups against Delver, I personally went 3-0 against it, even winning a game on a mull to 4.
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Regarding Stoneforge Mystic
Gastaf and Watchkeep? Those are far from the "right" cards.
I've long been in love with this archetype and have done a lot of testing. Going full blown aggro with werewolves is a bad idea and is the initial reason most of us realized we needed to be G/R not R/G. A primarily G, mid-rangey list is in the end is the most optimal one. Is is competitive by definition but obviously not top tier. Huntmaster is extremely necessary as well.
She isn't a werewolf herself, but she allows you to pass the turn w/o wasting your mana, and once she's in play you can ALWAYS skip casting anything on your turn to ensure your werewolves are always flipped on your opponent's turn. They won't be able to cast two spells to flip them back indefinitely, and forcing them to do so in and of itself is pretty nice especially when there's no cost to do so. Lastly, she enables some pretty broken surprise plays, like flashing instigator gang EOT and moonmisting on yours. The problem with instigator gang before was he's so explosive flipped (you basically win if you attack w/him) that no one would ever let you do so. Being able to flash him in allows you to do so. Similarly, flashing in immerwolf EOT after your opponent has tapped out casting two spells to flip your werewolves is pretty sweet, or even mid-combat to surprise pump your team.
I don't think Yeva makes it a Tier 1 deck, but when you consider all of the above interactions I think she's pretty much an auto-include. I wouldn't be embarassed to run her as a 3-4 of despite the legend rule because once your opponents realize what she does for the deck, she'll eat their removal so having a backup isn't the worst. If you have an extra in hand and they aren't killing her, then you're probably winning anyway. Alternatively, you could run her as a 1-2 of along with green sun's zenith, but tutoring her with green sun's is a lot worse since you can't pass to flip your wolves then cast her.
you are correct sir
although flashy huntmasters seems kind of sweet
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I have been testing this tribe, and trying to find what exactly they do best, and when testing aggro variants, I found it much stronger than mid range lists. The trick is to extend as quickly as possible, forcing the opponent to either extend as quickly as the werewolf player, or fall behind. If they keep up, they run out of cards and the werewolves flip. If they conserve, the werewolf player is ahead in board position, and doesn't have much to worry about. I go between 2-2 and 3-1 with this tactic so it must have something right.
One of the stronger tribal cards for Werewolves is full moon's rise. Completely negating ratchet bomb, as well as bonfire of the damned. Not an insignificant effect. Sure, a lot of the creatures are mediocre at best, but at least they don't die to anything relevant. Then again, huntmaster of the fells, daybreak ranger and mayor of Avabruck are hardly mediocre.
But optimization is not the topic of this thread, and I am sorry, but the deck can not compete in the meta described in the OP. That is one rough meta, and and my sympathies go out to you.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
yeah I brainfarted, for some reason I remembered Yeva affecting all creatures. Makes my suggestion quite a bit worse, though still should be taken under consideration since you can flash in huntmaster, immerwolf, mayor, etc.
Honestly this can be said for a lot of Tier one decks I hope you know. Not just werewolves... A LOT! lol I've played against Tier one and two decks with my own werewolf deck. If you can get damage in early with all those one drops or ramp up you're in decent shape. Even without disruption because in case you haven't noticed. A dedicated R/G WW doesnt have much removal unless you put it in!
Even though this is a very competitive format, there are a ton of decks that still have a place in this race. We face tidal waves of Delver, and control. But that shouldn't stop anyone from wanting to play different and creative builds in this world of grey! Be the one random color!
Like the Sig??!! I do! Check more out at:http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=329663 DONE BY, RIVENOR
Decks:
WURBGMaze's EndWURBG
GRBig Guild FeudGR
RUWeird ControlRU
BBWWOrzhov Black ExtortBBWW
GWSelesnya's WeenieGW
RRRGooblins!RRR
UWQuest For Tempered SteelUW
GWBGhave, Guru of SporesGWB
BBBDrana, The BeatstickBBB
GGGGEzuri aka E-Z-E Elf SwarmGGGG
WBTeysa, The Orzhov ScionWB
RWBrion StiffarmRW
The difference between competitive decks and the rest of the field of really fun, niche decks, is that they don't have to hit a SPECIFIC card to win consistently. Naya Aggro for instance, my list plays out a number of different ways depending on what cards I see, and while the overall strategy never really changes, I don't auto-lost to not seeing a Huntmaster, or a Blade Splicer, or any 1 card in particular. Moonmist is that card for Werewolves.
The truth is, when you look at the Tier 1 decks, Delver, Naya, GR, and MAYBE Zombies (1.5?) they are either VERY resilient, or in the case of Delver, overwhelming card filtering/advantage to the point where they aren't missing any key cards.
Yes, Werewolves can win games at FNM. It can beat lesser players running Tier 1 decks. Are you going to be able to Day 2 a GP with it? Not without the stars aligning, Angels parting the sky, and... well, you get the point.
Another side note... Immerwolf, one of the most liked lords of Werewolves, Negatively affects Huntmaster, the undeniably best Werewolf.
Simply put, it's a Tribal deck that doesn't have the card quality throughout to be competitive outside of some FNM wins. If you're just trying to go 3-1 at FNM, have a blast with it. I mean... the game is supposed to be fun, especially at the FNM level. But to be competitive at major tournaments, well.. that's why GR Aggro and Naya exist, they took the colors and filled decks with high card quality instead of forcing sub-par cards that happen to fit the theme.
One thing we thoroughly agree on is being creative and brewing new decks and trying new things. During Delver's more oppressive reign (which people should realize by now is over... it's a good deck but it's not dominating anything now), my only real frustration with the deck was that I couldn't seem to get paired up against it at tournaments.
Caw Blade may have been the exemption, but typically when one deck is sitting on top in standard for any length of time, it's simply because people have become lazy and stopped trying new ideas. As soon as AVR came out, Naya Humans was what I wanted to build. It wasn't very good at first, and as time went on it saw less attention because I was trying out other strategies... but then, my love for Naya made me come back around and abandon the "humans" theory and just focus on individual cards that were good along the curve. Sure... still ended up with a bunch of humans since well... there's a lot of good ones lol.
SCG had an article recently that really summed up what I've been saying... Something to the tune of not being afriad to try your ideas, but also not being afraid to let go of them when it's not able to work. I've played both with and against Werewolves, and decided it was time to move on.
Mind you... doesn't help that WOTC isn't printing new Werewolves either, so you are forced to play an out of date creature base, ignoring better cards, or moving away from the tribal theme.
How many tournaments does zombies have to win before people start respecting it as a Tier 1 deck? There seems to be this irrational disdain for tribal strategies among Spikes that leads to a deck like Zombies not getting respect despite having taken down dozens of massive tournaments. I would understand the 1.5 rating if it simply showed up in a lot of Top 8's but never placed 1st, but that just isn't the case, especially in recent weeks as lists continue to be tuned.
The 1.5 is simply because Zombies is actually pretty easy to hate out with relatively common Sideboard Cards like O Ring and Purge. It's on the edge for me. Reason being, it shows up, wins an event, then doesn't top 8 the next 3-4 events, gets overlooked, wins an event, doesn't top 8 a few, gets overlooked, etc.
Make no mistake. I'm a fan of the Zombies deck. Ran UB Zombies for about a month and loved it. A little inconsistent at times, but powerful and almost unstoppable on it's nut draws. When it misses... oh boy does it miss.
While it has put up a number of good finishes and taken down some tournaments, it doesn't do so consistently. It takes one, misses a couple, takes one. Delver, Naya, GR are basically in every top 8 in some variation.
It's not hate, it's just setting the bar a bit high for what is Tier 1. I wouldn't blink if someone told me they were sleeving up Zombies for a GP or PTQ. It's a good archetype (interstingly enough, made playable by non-zombies lol).
You ain't kidding bro, it's hard as heck, and every once in a while, we get ex PTer's. But anyway, the reg/big players are tough because they have access to all of the cards needed for their decks to run optimal, unlike the newbs, noobs, intermediate, andjust for fun players. A good few are net decked, but not all however. Anyway, anyone know what decks rank the top 2-3 tiers are anyway?