I get that side by side, VS comes out on top because it causes your opponant to lose a life. But since VS became so popular, it just seems to me that people act like it's some kind of new tech...as if Unsummon hadn't been around since forever ago.
Was Unsummon not seeing play before VS was printed? Is it the fact that it causes the loss of life that makes it oh so special? Is it the enviroment that it's in? If VS wasn't printed, would Unsummon be as popular right now?
Just curious.
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Honestly, that one life adds up. Unsummon has seen play before, but using the "one mana/card is two damage" rule, Vapor Snag is 1.5x as good as Unsummon. When flashed back with Snappy, it becomes a free Shock. That 2-4 damage over the course of a game is hugely relevant to helping Delver finish games out.
I get that side by side, VS comes out on top because it causes your opponant to lose a life. But since VS became so popular, it just seems to me that people act like it's some kind of new tech...as if Unsummon hadn't been around since forever ago.
Was Unsummon not seeing play before VS was printed? Is it the fact that it causes the loss of life that makes it oh so special? Is it the enviroment that it's in? If VS wasn't printed, would Unsummon be as popular right now?
Just curious.
It is not about the 1 life loss. It is simply because Snapcaster Mage made cheap bounce spells so much better. Without Snapcaster Mage, no one really played bounce spells that didn't replace itself one way or another (Boomerang and Eye of Nowhere were exception since they acted as mana denial in a deck that packed Stone Rain and Molten Rain). Previously, the only bounce spells that saw play were Cryptic Command, Into the Roil, Venser, Shaper Savant, Fire//Ice, Capsize, all of which replaced itself.
It's still not colorless, and has no color. That's a paradox. So either you're a Zen master or an idiot, I'll assume the Zen master for sake of argument. This card will have no paradoxes because it has a clear paradox. Deep stuff man.
It's just the interaction with snapcaster and being able to get geist of st through or save its life when needed. Once it rotates, it is possible that unsummon sees some play, but we need to see what's .in ravnica first.
Honestly, that one life adds up. Unsummon has seen play before, but using the "one mana/card is two damage" rule, Vapor Snag is 1.5x as good as Unsummon. When flashed back with Snappy, it becomes a free Shock. That 2-4 damage over the course of a game is hugely relevant to helping Delver finish games out.
Agreed.
That's why some people call Delver decks, "Mono Blue Burn" because along with the incredible tempo you get, you also burn your opponent.
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People are going to play it during Return to Ravnica, though. Delver, as a deck, probably won't be going anywhere, so they'll just replace their rotated cards with similar cards and carry on. Will those cards be strong enough to keep the deck alive? Only time will tell. But Unsummon certainly is a downgrade from Vapor Snag for all of the aforementioned reasons.
Unsummon might be run when Vapor Snag rotates because part of the reason Vapor Snag is run is because Delver decks are very swingy and be able to bounce the an attacker or blocker can move the game in the bouncer's favor.
There are many factors at play in making Vapor Snag as playable as it is. The extra damage adds up. Coupled with Snapcaster Mage it's a cheap, reusable tempo play. The extreme efficiency of Delver of Secrets, Geist of Saint Traft etc. makes unsummoning their dude unusually lethal. There are also almost no decks that is isn't live against. In a meta with non-creature-based combo and control decks running around, having four dead spells would be bad. Also as mentioned above, unsummon effects have seen lots of play, just not in Unsummon.
...not only is the total number of players expanding very quickly, but at the same time a greater and greater number of those players are being pushed to only desire a small subset of the available cards. These combined forces drastically increase demand for those cards and cause the values of just those specific cards to often balloon out of proportion.
Personally, I think that unless Delver gets a better option for one-mana removal, Unsummon will probably be played until Snapcaster rotates.
I think that the combination of Snapcaster and most decks being creature heavy is what made Vapor Snag so favorable in the meta, not just the 1 life. If control manages to become stronger, then Unsummon could become even better with possible Snapcaster shenanigans.
unsummon was not popular before, no. neither was vapor snag until Snapcaster Mage was printed though. Snapcaster was printed after Vapor Snag though so there was never a period of time when people had to consider playing a different card besides Vapor Snag to use with Snapcaster.
in other words, its not that Vapor Snag is so much better then Unsummon. its not. its only a little better. its that Unsummon (or Vapor Snag) is awesome with Snapcaster Mage, so given that you want to play that combo you obviously pick the slightly better unsummon effect.
It's the deck it's in that makes it shine. Aggro bounce tempo...whatever you want to call it, it isn't what's typical for Blue: control. Control loves the long game. Bounce cards don't typically work well in long games because they leave your opponent's hand full. This isn't the biggest issue in quick 4-6 turn games.
Delver pushes for a quick victory from turn one. Given the mechanics of the deck, and the help of the aforementioned Snappy, Vapor Snag can disrupt a player's game and leave him or her nearly helpless against a sword-bearing insect, or a pike-stabbing geist who attacks with an angel. The extra damage from VS is icing on the cake...deadly icing!!! muhahaha!!! Unsummon could fill that role depending on what RTR brings. Heads up, VS is better than Unsummon. But neither would see much play if it weren't for the aggro/tempo style that Delver plays.
It's the deck it's in that makes it shine. Aggro bounce tempo...whatever you want to call it, it isn't what's typical for Blue: control. Control loves the long game. Bounce cards don't typically work well in long games because they leave your opponent's hand full. This isn't the biggest issue in quick 4-6 turn games.
Delver pushes for a quick victory from turn one. Given the mechanics of the deck, and the help of the aforementioned Snappy, Vapor Snag can disrupt a player's game and leave him or her nearly helpless against a sword-bearing insect, or a pike-stabbing geist who attacks with an angel. The extra damage from VS is icing on the cake...deadly icing!!! muhahaha!!! Unsummon could fill that role depending on what RTR brings. Heads up, VS is better than Unsummon. But neither would see much play if it weren't for the aggro/tempo style that Delver plays.
Nailed it. Its not snapcaster that makes snag good. It's the overall "ponder package" as a whole. Multiple cheap tempo spells with the ability to abuse and exploit their benefits. If snag didnt exist unsummon would be in its place. Snag just does a damage that unsommon doesnt thus it getting the nod. The damage is nice but make no mistake.. its the bounce effect thats important.
I think Unsummon has a role to play with snag rotating. One additional play is that you can use unsummon on your own guys (e.g. snappy) to gain extra value without pinging yourself.
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in other words, its not that Vapor Snag is so much better then Unsummon. its not. its only a little better.
I'd say it's significantly better. A free 1 direct damage really makes a 1 CMC spell more card/mana efficient in aggro, especially when it is flashbacked. If vapor snag was not in standard, it's possible unsummon would not be a mainstay of delver decks.
Its the snapcaster interaction, and the life loss is just gravy on the side. I forget all the details but last week I played a game where I won a close match I should've lost by doing 7 (yes 7) dmg. via snapcaster/snag.
Unsummon type effects have always been nearly playable, the problem was the tempo you generate from the card was never enough to compensate for the card disadvantage you get from casting.
Snapcaster Mage, however, makes it so that the tempo you receive from the bounce spell is worth the card disadvantage.
I get that side by side, VS comes out on top because it causes your opponant to lose a life. But since VS became so popular, it just seems to me that people act like it's some kind of new tech...as if Unsummon hadn't been around since forever ago.
Was Unsummon not seeing play before VS was printed? Is it the fact that it causes the loss of life that makes it oh so special? Is it the enviroment that it's in? If VS wasn't printed, would Unsummon be as popular right now?
Just curious.
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It is not about the 1 life loss. It is simply because Snapcaster Mage made cheap bounce spells so much better. Without Snapcaster Mage, no one really played bounce spells that didn't replace itself one way or another (Boomerang and Eye of Nowhere were exception since they acted as mana denial in a deck that packed Stone Rain and Molten Rain). Previously, the only bounce spells that saw play were Cryptic Command, Into the Roil, Venser, Shaper Savant, Fire//Ice, Capsize, all of which replaced itself.
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Agreed.
That's why some people call Delver decks, "Mono Blue Burn" because along with the incredible tempo you get, you also burn your opponent.
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I think that the combination of Snapcaster and most decks being creature heavy is what made Vapor Snag so favorable in the meta, not just the 1 life. If control manages to become stronger, then Unsummon could become even better with possible Snapcaster shenanigans.
It happened with Duel Masters and blue aggro, and was one of the reason why their "bounce a creature" spell is limited to 1.
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in other words, its not that Vapor Snag is so much better then Unsummon. its not. its only a little better. its that Unsummon (or Vapor Snag) is awesome with Snapcaster Mage, so given that you want to play that combo you obviously pick the slightly better unsummon effect.
Delver pushes for a quick victory from turn one. Given the mechanics of the deck, and the help of the aforementioned Snappy, Vapor Snag can disrupt a player's game and leave him or her nearly helpless against a sword-bearing insect, or a pike-stabbing geist who attacks with an angel. The extra damage from VS is icing on the cake...deadly icing!!! muhahaha!!! Unsummon could fill that role depending on what RTR brings. Heads up, VS is better than Unsummon. But neither would see much play if it weren't for the aggro/tempo style that Delver plays.
I'm referring to UG Madness, for example in the 2003 Worlds incarnation.
Was just about the post this, you have the mongrel avatar though so you deserve
Also wanted throw in aether burst was increadibly popular in all versions of UG madness
Nailed it. Its not snapcaster that makes snag good. It's the overall "ponder package" as a whole. Multiple cheap tempo spells with the ability to abuse and exploit their benefits. If snag didnt exist unsummon would be in its place. Snag just does a damage that unsommon doesnt thus it getting the nod. The damage is nice but make no mistake.. its the bounce effect thats important.
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I'd say it's significantly better. A free 1 direct damage really makes a 1 CMC spell more card/mana efficient in aggro, especially when it is flashbacked. If vapor snag was not in standard, it's possible unsummon would not be a mainstay of delver decks.
You can't compare Vapor Snag to Aether Burst. Aether Burst allows you to bounce more creatures if you have several copies in your graveyard.
Vapor Snag is seeing play because we don't have cards like Path to Exile.
Oh man, imagine all the complaining people would do if Aether Burst was legal instead of Snag?
I know what you mean. This card was a 4 of in Psychatog, 3 in the main, 1 at the side for wish targets.
Of course this card doesn't have good synergy with Snapcaster Mage, but would work well for people who doesn't own snapcasters.
Snapcaster Mage, however, makes it so that the tempo you receive from the bounce spell is worth the card disadvantage.
The free shock is just bonus.
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