thundermaw hellkite

  • #1
    Which deck does thundermaw hellkite go into the easiest? RG aggro? naya pod? Top of curve for RDW? RB sligh?

    Is the card just "insert 2-4 dragons into red deck and bash face" good or need some careful consideration in how it's played? The card is predicted to be the highest growing card in M13 according to Wescoe's article here, http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10577 Hence, it has to be a staple right?
    Last edited by drakeavril: 7/11/2012 4:32:01 AM
  • #2
    I think it goes in Naya Pod as a 1 of and maybe RG Aggro. I personally don't see it, which is why I haven't purchased any. Actually the only thing that made me consider buying some is the hype created by the article, but the window for capitalizing on this type of hype is usually pretty small.

    A creature that you can compare it to is Vengevine, which went up to $50. I don't think that this card is close in power to Vengevine. I do, however see this as a solid $20 card possibly in the future. (Not sure why Wescoe thinks it'll be $50 some day.)
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  • #3
    Don't buy into the hype on this guy. Outside of planeswalkers hellkite and sublime are. The only money cards in the set. Sublime is goijng to tank quickly and so will the planeswalkers. Online stores are hyping this guy so they will sell.

    This guy is a 1 of for pod in the side. The only reason he is even playable there is because it also removes blockers from your restoration angel and is on the same curve. Outside of that maybe a 2 of in sidebaords.

    That will not ever justify a card being $50. The only way a card can. Get that his is if ever deck in that color starts deck construction with a 4 of main.

    EDIT: phone likes to add in periods
  • #4
    This card will NOT go to $50. It's probably going to $10-12 within 2 months.
  • #5
    I don't know if it will rise in price, but it will win A LOT of games. I think you can justify it in any deck with red, much like Bonfire, which is still 20-30.
  • #6
    Quote from wattsup
    I don't know if it will rise in price, but it will win A LOT of games. I think you can justify it in any deck with red, much like Bonfire, which is still 20-30.


    There is no way you can compare the 2. Bonefire completely swings the game no matter what the board state looks like.

    Hellkite is only good the turn you play it. If it doesn't end the game right there welcomes to chumpsville.
  • #7
    1 main and 1 board for Naya Pod.
    2 main and 1 board for RGaggro.

    Grixis control could also make use of the card since lingering souls are a problem for control decks.

    One of the most effective uses is to destroy lingering souls and kill a defended planeswalker in a single hit while still having a threat on board which is relevant right now.
  • #8
    He brings a lot to the table. I don't see him in RDW. I do however see him in any of the other decks mentioned so far. Pod, RB, RG Aggro. RB has Aristocrat right now, but this is also pretty good I just don't know why they'd replace her when she's a hasty flyer that acts as a sac outlet for dealing additional points of damage with Blood Artist.
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  • #9
    Quote from twicky_kid
    There is no way you can compare the 2. Bonefire completely swings the game no matter what the board state looks like.
    You are mistaken here, without a board state prior to bonfiring it is not a complete swing. Just much as a doj is a swing, cause it isn't if you dont have something on the board after.
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  • #10
    If you are playing a bunch of flying creatures he basically reads: "Creatures with flying you control are unblockable. Deal 5 damage to your opponent"

    So, if you can build a deck that can utilize this, its worth playing. The combination of haste and creature tap down is important, but without cards with a high power livel like, (maybe) necrogen scutter (a bad bad card) to back it up, its probably not going to win you the game.

    I'd see using a package that had some of these cards in it:

    // And depending highly on your build (Demonic task master decks would be fine with this):
    Archwing Dragon

    Now, all of those cards wouldn't go in the same deck, but most of them wouldn't mind having the 5/5 "now we're all unblockable" dragon around. Especially if the <6 sweepers are leaving the format.
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  • #11
    You guys are crazy.

    I'm running Hellkite as a 2 of in Naya Pod, and I gotta say: look out. With Hellkite and Wolfir, all our 5 drops have "haste". With Rancor on the rise, Splicer And Thalia only get better because of first strike. Couple that with the fact that Angel, Huntmaster, Conscripts and Thragtusk are all insane cards on their own, and we have ourselves a deck that could very well topple Delver as top dog.

    Naya Pod is THAT good right now, and If not pod, Naya with Ajani, Bonfire, Rancor, etc WILL be.

    Naya is where u want to be fold, and Hellkite is at the front of the pack as reasons to play it. Splicer is why u want white, an angel is just insane. Do it up

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  • #12
    Thundermaw Hellkite is a card, but not a $30 card. If he stays above $15 for long I will be surprised.

    The demand simply isn't there. You're never going to want 4 of them like you do with Snapcaster Mage, it doesn't fit into every deck of the corresponding color, and it is in a core set, meaning it will probably show up in a precon deck after a while.

    One could argue that the supply will be low too, but it's a core set, people draft 'em. And they're what most casual players will buy too, and new players are encouraged to buy them as well.
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  • #13
    Hate to beat this to death but baneslayer was the same way...

    Not too many decks wanted more than like 2 I think. Did control play it As a 4 of?

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    ----------
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    --------
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    URUStormURU
  • #14
    Quote from DXI-Edge
    Hate to beat this to death but baneslayer was the same way...

    Not too many decks wanted more than like 2 I think. Did control play it As a 4 of?


    Baneslayer wasn't the same way at all. Baneslayer was a card for a deck that had no other real win conditions. Red has plenty of other outs, and red/green is probably the king combination of bombs.

    It had demand because control was popular and it was the only card worth playing of its kind. There are other cards worth playing at your top end in red and green.
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  • #15
    Quote from DXI-Edge
    Hate to beat this to death but baneslayer was the same way...

    Not too many decks wanted more than like 2 I think. Did control play it As a 4 of?


    Baneslayer was a bit different in that it played well in aggro (Naya Lightsaber) and control (UW/UWR), and the best deck at the time (Jund) had a really hard time dealing with it. Same thing for Sword of War and Peace. If the Dragon can singlehandedly win games for aggro and control, then it'll be worth quite a bit of money.

    Personally, I just don't see it ever being that good. The exception would be if Lingering Souls decks become huge after rotation (since anything that's powerful enough to get banned in block is a default post-rotation strategy). If that happens, then it could be a great metagame choice.
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  • #16
    Out of the 5-drop options available to R/G(/W) (Wolfir Silverheart, Thragtusk, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Zealous Conscripts), Dragon definitely has a place. It's quite good against decks trying to use Lingering Souls to stabilise, it breaks stalemates, and the fact that it's a 5/5 flying haste beater the rest of the time means it's a good MB option (then you can side in Conscripts et al if they're more relevant to the matchup).
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  • #17
    I'd honestly replace inferno titan with hellkite in my ramp deck too at this point.
  • #18
    Combos nicely with Shimian Specter. Hard to get that guy through for damage but not if you just tap all their guys.
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  • #19
    Thundermaw Hellkite is basically unblockable. Thragtusk, Wolfir Silverheart and what not can be chumped by anything. Well, that's where Rancor comes in. But anyway, I'm expecting this dragon to be even better post rotation when there's virtually no instant speed removal besides what Murder. Let's see what RtR brings.
  • #20
    I bought my playset for dirt cheap and will be running 2mb/2sb in R/W tempo. Silverblade Paladin, Restoration Angel, and Thundermaw will round out my curve. I usually wreck lingering decks until they stabilize turn 4 (can't believe the flashback on that card). With this guy I get those last few points in before gideon gets in the way. With Resto I can blink him or the paladin to add even more damage... He's insane and will win plenty of games as a 5 for 5 burn spell.
  • #21
    Zealous Conscripts would be my choice over Dragon. Conscripts can steal anything, Dragon just beats lingering souls, either way, both a good choice, my choice would be ZC.
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  • #22
    The difference is zc fluff at lingering souls. The dragon guarantees 5 dmg short of being removed.

    Now if you are running a large swarm deck or are up against control which has few threats it works excellently but in a deck that is concerned more about reach, I'd run the dragon. A good finisher for a R/B sligh-like burn build.
    "Bound by hell-forged chains and fate-haunted circumstance. Well, then--let it be thus so--and men will have cause to tremble and flee when they hear the names of Elric of Melinbone and Stormbringer, his sword. We are two of a kind--produced by an age which has deserted us. Let us give this age cause to hate us!”



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  • #23
    Quote from Cerebus
    The difference is zc fluff at lingering souls.


    Who the hell loses to Lingering Souls? I mean really I haven't lost a game to that card in months. Up until about a month ago it was heavily played at my local store. One week out of 8 rounds I played 5 decks containing lingering souls. I won everyone of those matches. Rancor is enough to get you through Lingering Souls while beating your opponent in the face all game long from turn 2. Even hellrider gets you through lingering souls. Since day 1 the meta has been so hateful to that card it has done absolutely nothing. I don't even see ratchet bombs in sideboards outside of Solar Flare.

    Bonfire of the Damned is a card. It is also a card that is going to see a ton of play until it rotates. 1 sided board wipe (aka my guys are unblockable this turn and many turns afterwards) that also domes my opponent or takes out a planeswalker. Then on top of that it has its uses on turn 3-5 not just at the end of the game.

    So from thundermaw we get 1 turn of unblockable compared to permanently remove your board blocking anything now or in the next few turns. I mean its not even a competition.

    Everything this guy is designed to beat bonfire does better. Any time you give me a job to fill with a card and my options are a creature filling that role or an instant/sorcery filling that role I will always pick the instant/sorcery. Everything bonfire couldn't deal with this guy cannot either. So what's the point?
    Last edited by twicky_kid: 7/11/2012 10:25:23 PM
  • #24
    Quote from twicky_kid


    Bonfire of the Damned is a card. It is also a card that is going to see a ton of play until it rotates. 1 sided board wipe (aka my guys are unblockable this turn and many turns afterwards) that also domes my opponent or takes out a planeswalker. Then on top of that it has its uses on turn 3-5 not just at the end of the game.

    So from thundermaw we get 1 turn of unblockable compared to permanently remove your board blocking anything now or in the next few turns. I mean its not even a competition.

    Everything this guy is designed to beat bonfire does better. Any time you give me a job to fill with a card and my options are a creature filling that role or an instant/sorcery filling that role I will always pick the instant/sorcery. Everything bonfire couldn't deal with this guy cannot either. So what's the point?

    Who said we can't play Bonfire alongside Thundermaw? And as far as ZC against Thundermaw, on an empty battlefield I would rather drop the dragon.
  • #25
    Personally this card reminds me of Surgical Extraction, the card that was designed to hose a Vengevine warped meta-game. Only this time, Thundermaw Hellkite was designed to hose a Lingering Souls warped meta-game. (I'm aware that Lingering Souls was great before AVR, but it's not as common now.)

    What those cards have in common is that the meta-game they were built to hate just wasn't there. (Caw-Blade and Delver type decks respectively.)

    Problem is, unless Lingering Souls really picks up steam again after the rotation, then the Hellkite is just a 5/5 hasty flyer. That alone is good, don't get me wrong, but he won't be worth anything like his preview prices.

    That said, if Lingering Souls does in fact end up as the new bane of existence, then I'm sure you'll be happy you picked up the Hellkite early.
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