then i guess your sb beast within should be enough. =p
Lol... Not against Frost Titan... Have to pay two more mana just to target him and then I have to worry about a cancel... DoJ would have been better...
The problem with DoJ is that it kills my creatrues too and i don't like that one bit but i am able to manage without them soo far so we will have to see usually im able to block with two beast tokens and its usually fine( i also have Intagible Virtue in my currentdeck so that lets me keep a beast)
I think you have too many 4-5-6 mana drops.
I have tested a similar build with
6 x 4mana drops,
6 x 5 mana drops
3 x 6 mana drops
1x 7 mana drop.
And i always had 3-4 in my opening hand and almost always had to muligan...
You mind posting a list and what do you mean by 3-4?
I'll post it later (at work now).
What i ment was that i ended up (multiple times) with something like - elspeth,garruk,wurmcoil, titan + 3 lands in my opening hand...Which...well....sucks.
I was playing with (similar to your build actually):
3 Thruns
3 Hero of Bladehold
2 Garruk Primal Hunter
2 Gideon
2 Elspeth
2 Wurmcoil
2 Titan
1 Elesh Norn
Too many high mana costed cards. Shouldn't be more than 7-8.
P.S What you guys think of Green Sun's Zenith? Maybe 1 of. To fech thrun, birds ?
Lol... Yeah a opening hand like that would be a auto mull... One reason I took out Elesh. I wanted my curve to end at 6. I am either swinging with a Crusader on turn 3 or a Mana dork with a sword. Thrun and Hero are my finishers while the Plainswalkers help me if I am getting in trouble in the end game. Sun Titan and Wurmcoil are in there for just in case. I really have not had any trouble with opening hands or deciding which card I want to play next...
I tried GSZ while back but there where not that many green targets... So I upped the land instead to 24 and in the end put in more mana dorks.... Where you running the Pilgram in your build? That is what I found was really the last part of the puzzle I was missing to smooth out my curve...
Is anyone still developing a control version? Wondering if we should still include this in the primer... Seems to me the Mid Range approach is the way to go in this meta and if you do tokens you might as well go straight to competive G/W tokens...
Replaced Viridian Emissary with Avacyn's Pilgrim because its guaranteed ramp the next turn. Ramping into a turn 3 Garruk Relentless or Solemn Simulacrum is very good, and the aggro from Viridian Emissary was only ok. I don't like my opponent being able to determine how things go.
got my a@! handed to me today by Kessig had no idea what to do against it was just too fast thinking about taking out caravan vigil for either viridian or Avacyns Piligrim and thinking about throwing in Hero of Bladehold...Mirran Crusader saved me for some time till Hero of Oxid ridge came out what do u think of honor of the pure/intangible virtue + Hero sounds pretty near to me
got my a@! handed to me today by Kessig had no idea what to do against it was just too fast thinking about taking out caravan vigil for either viridian or Avacyns Piligrim and thinking about throwing in Hero of Bladehold...Mirran Crusader saved me for some time till Hero of Oxid ridge came out what do u think of honor of the pure/intangible virtue + Hero sounds pretty near to me
What do you think about sideboarding Ghost Quarter against Kessig? Has the added benefit of taking out Inkmoth Nexus and Moorland Haunt. The Nexus has been giving me lots of trouble.
What do you think about sideboarding Ghost Quarter against Kessig? Has the added benefit of taking out Inkmoth Nexus and Moorland Haunt. The Nexus has been giving me lots of trouble.
Inkmoth doesnt scare me its Kessig+Primeval mainly or Kessig + Hero and I cant do anything about it so i am thinking about ghost quarter i only have one so far so i need to get some
got my a@! handed to me today by Kessig had no idea what to do against it was just too fast thinking about taking out caravan vigil for either viridian or Avacyns Piligrim and thinking about throwing in Hero of Bladehold...Mirran Crusader saved me for some time till Hero of Oxid ridge came out what do u think of honor of the pure/intangible virtue + Hero sounds pretty near to me
I hold my beast within fr Kessig and Oxid Ridge.
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Elspeth doesn't do much in our decks. Just my opinion. Maybe i will replace her with 2-3 Garruk Primal Hunter on the next FNM.
Run Garruk Primal Hunter and Gideon before running Elspeth and if you do run Elspeth as a one of... I am testing as a two of but she seems more as a support planeswalker then anything else.
I think i will have to remove the Sun Titan too. Always had it in my hand and never wanted to cast him.
I have gone back and forth with Sun Titan. Three IMO is to much and one is to little. I have run with and without and there where games where he has swung it back in my favor especially if he sticks.
Gavony Township is amazing, especially against red decks, but seems 3 is little too much, maybe reduce to 2.
Agreed... Even with SoFaF anything more then two seems to much...
And 24 lands seems too much too. With 7-8 mana dorks.
24 is fine... You really don't want to miss that early land drop for turns three and four. About your list though I would run either the Pilgram or Emmissary but not both and Pilgram over Emmissary. The Pilgram smooths out your curve and allows you to skip those two drops right into a Sword or Mirrian.
My 2 losses are against infect decks... really don't know how to handle them. Tumble Magnet, Contagion Engine+clasp.....proliferate to the death.
Naturalize>Revoke Excistence... Either one I would run as a four of...
I found Elspeth Tirel to be rather underwhelming and out of place in this deck. The life gain never really seemed significant or needed when she was in hand, and the tokens never really seemed necessary. In her place I brought in some Beast Withins to add a little more main deck removal tech.
I'm running 3 swords mainly because that's all I have. haha. Haven't had any problems with just the 3.
Looks like a solid list! One question though because this has been the second list with Celestrial Purge in the side board... What games are you guys siding in this card for?
Looks like a solid list! One question though because this has been the second list with Celestrial Purge in the side board... What games are you guys siding in this card for?
Thanks! I'm kinda new to this mid-range thing. I've been a hardcore aggro player for the past 6 years!
Good question. Honestly, I haven't tested my sideboard a whole. I pretty much just threw it together. I automatically include Purge in any list I run Oblivion Ring in for the Mono-Red matchup. By siding out Oblivion Ring for Celestial Purge, you get a cheaper and faster(which is key against mono-red) removal to deal with Koth and Chandra's Phoenix, or anything else that annoys you.
Something better could probably go in that slot based on this deck, but I won't know that until I do further testing.
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I'm assuming Ghost Quarter is mainly for Wolf Run? How is this working for you, over Beast or O-Ring? Seems like even though Quarter removes Wolfrun is still gives them a land advantage.
I like this. It's more inline with what I've been doing(1 to 3). I just think you are a tiny bit too top heavy. You probably can run pretty hot and not worry about it, but you are running 9 5+ drops. Whereas I think the suitable number for the amount of ramp/land here is about 7-8. The core pieces and planeswalker choices look good (I run the same planeswalker suite, I'm happy to see you've dropped Elspeth). Your removal numbers at 6 look good too along with 3 amplifiers(swords).
I actually don't have much more to say than that. The list looks good other than the amount of top end. Looking at the proactive curve you have:
1: 8
3: 7
4: 6
5: 5
6: 4
Compared to a deck like Fires which ran the same 8 T1 mana dorks(and 25 lands):
1: 8
3: 8
4: 7
5: 4
6: 3
I might be just tempted to cut 1 6 drop for 1 more land. Simply off the fact you really want to ensure you curve out to atleast 4 if you face opponents that are gunning for the birds. I was running 24 lands with 8 dorks for a while with 8 on top and I eventually just added the land. Too many games where although I curved with dorks I missed my 4th land drop. If I could use that to pull ahead good, but often something like DoJ was auto loss there. I'm still working on exact numbers myself.. But that would be my only suggestion.
How do you sideboard Surgical Extraction in? What do you take out typically? I've found it very difficult to fit in that sort of card. I found I would often be better keeping in threats rather than siding those in.
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I have gone back and forth with Surgical Extraction vs Nevermore and IMO graveyard hate is a must. Never really like Nihl Spell bomb... I like the fact you can take a peak at a hand and library and figure out what adjustments they have made against you...
I tend to side it against control and this is what I do...
-1 Hero of Bladhold
+1 Thrun, the Last Troll
-2 Beast Within
-2 Sun Titan
+4 Surgical Extraction
Forgot there was one more small change to that sideboard... I took out the Beast Within and added another Timely Reinforcements...
I'm assuming Ghost Quarter is mainly for Wolf Run? How is this working for you, over Beast or O-Ring? Seems like even though Quarter removes Wolfrun is still gives them a land advantage.
That is exactly what is is for... everyone seems to be running some variant of Wolf Run (including me lol...) and with a Sun Titan it can get pretty nuts. You are honestly not going to be able to stop them from ramping and I don't target there Inkmoth. I like to use it on the Wolf Run since there probably only running two. I have gone back and forth with this because the Quarters can slow your deck down. Killing off my mana dorks and being stuck with one quarter and one other land and not being able to play my double whites or triple green can be frustrating. There is just so much to answer against a wolf run deck and one of the reason why I just don't see this deck becoming tier 1. If it was up to me I would run zero quarters but against wolf run you need answers and alot of them...
It is defiantly tier 1.5 and deserves a competitive slot because it is can smash all those rogue decks pretty well but to do it consistently against other tier 1 decks I just don't see it happening. At a FNM take this deck and have fun... if you are headed to a competitive function you might want to take something else...
I have gone back and forth with Surgical Extraction vs Nevermore and IMO graveyard hate is a must. Never really like Nihl Spell bomb... I like the fact you can take a peak at a hand and library and figure out what adjustments they have made against you...
I tend to side it against control and this is what I do...
-1 Hero of Bladhold
+1 Thrun, the Last Troll
-2 Beast Within
-2 Sun Titan
+4 Surgical Extraction
Forgot there was one more small change to that sideboard... I took out the Beast Within and added another Timely Reinforcements...
I see... Hero for Thrun is equal gain.. then 2 removal and 2 titans.. for extractions. Yeah that seems reasonable. I usually like the Beasts but that is because I tend to attack their lands a lot. Like if I want to pressure them trying to counter my spells...Right now Control decks really need to use that expensive instant speed drawing so if you attack theirs lands and force them to counter spells every turn they might end up missing drops or missing action. Hmm.. I guess I should post my current list since I haven't for almost a week (and the other thread is now redundant).
Newest thing I'm trying is the Relentless.. I'm a bit scared of Infect.. not sure if Gideon is enough. Might just be a wasted slot. I cut the swords main since I have the Kessig's for evasion. Mirran Crusader kills just as fast with Kessig as it does with a Sword pretty much. You can't sword of Crusader and attack til til turn 4 anyway. At which point maybe they can block it with an artifact etc.. T4 at 5 mana is how much it will cost to cast and equip a sword (that might be countered) where as Kessig will do that 8 damage with Crusader for you as well.
I haven't tested this latest version that much yet. I think I may want the 3rd Thrun somewhere. Also I'm not sure if the 4th Kessig is needed.. it would probably prefer to be a Plains.. But I think I definitely want to have it and with recent hate multiples is good. Ghost Quarter sets the opponent back lands even more.
I see... Hero for Thrun is equal gain.. then 2 removal and 2 titans.. for extractions. Yeah that seems reasonable. I usually like the Beasts but that is because I tend to attack their lands a lot. Like if I want to pressure them trying to counter my spells...Right now Control decks really need to use that expensive instant speed drawing so if you attack theirs lands and force them to counter spells every turn they might end up missing drops or missing action. Hmm.. I guess I should post my current list since I haven't for almost a week (and the other thread is now redundant).
Newest thing I'm trying is the Relentless.. I'm a bit scared of Infect.. not sure if Gideon is enough. Might just be a wasted slot. I cut the swords main since I have the Kessig's for evasion. Mirran Crusader kills just as fast with Kessig as it does with a Sword pretty much. You can't sword of Crusader and attack til til turn 4 anyway. At which point maybe they can block it with an artifact etc.. T4 at 5 mana is how much it will cost to cast and equip a sword (that might be countered) where as Kessig will do that 8 damage with Crusader for you as well.
I haven't tested this latest version that much yet. I think I may want the 3rd Thrun somewhere. Also I'm not sure if the 4th Kessig is needed.. it would probably prefer to be a Plains.. But I think I definitely want to have it and with recent hate multiples is good. Ghost Quarter sets the opponent back lands even more.
Interesting choices you have there... I have seen Mirrian starting to creep up in Wolf Run builds and he is pretty boss with Kessig...
How has the Hydra been lately? And an interesting choice with True Convictions also... would like to hear your reasoning on that card? Don't think I have seen that in a list yet...
Interesting choices you have there... I have seen Mirrian starting to creep up in Wolf Run builds and he is pretty boss with Kessig...
How has the Hydra been lately? And an interesting choice with True Convictions also... would like to hear your reasoning on that card? Don't think I have seen that in a list yet...
Hydra has been eating more doom blades lately. He interacted a bit better with Dismember. Still as a 3 drop he puts on the adequate pressure against a lot of decks. Any low removal decks still get beat out by him. He basically allows me to devastate kill Wolf Run Ramp. Hero of Bladehold is the best against RG, but Hydra trumps mono green since you can play it out smaller without fear of Slagstorm and it will be bigger than Dungrove. A quick Nevermore on Beast Within and they can't win. My creatures are bigger (especially with Conviction).
Sure .. I've probably gone over this to death in the GW Mythic thread, but basically let me grab an excerpt about my list from that thread:
I've discussed the Merits of True Conviction before. It's an Overrun on the attack that also acts as a stabilizer. Also nothing goes bigger on board. It's let me win through multiple opposing Wurmcoil Engines. It's not quite Finest Hour but it represents that moment when either you just win like off Overrun or if you are on the ropes you can suddenly reverse and attack. On average a Landing Conviction usually results in a swing of 30-40 which means that even if you were are attacking 3 3/3's into a Wurmcoil Engine you probably have just won the game. Being an enchantment isn't terrible either. It might be winmore in a lot of cases but it represents a threat a lot more dangerous than a Titan, especially with Wolf Run.. It is good in pretty much every matchup except control, but even then having a couple Overruns aren't bad. If they ever tap out for that Grave Titan that has your Hero beat on Board, suddenly instead they just die. The way it completely just is I win against aggro assuming you have any pathetic creature on board makes it better than just an overrun. It's that way to just go bigger than everything else. I'm probably too much of deck building idealist, but I don't mind getting behind things that allow such powerful effects if they synergize with the deck.
That's one thing I haven't talked about much is the synergies in my list:
1. Kessig Wolf Run + Mana dorks. This is a very efficient way of getting the most out of your mana. Your late dorks aren't necessarily dead draws and it doesn't cost you any more slots(I find once you get into 5 Sword territory your threat density starts hurting in these decks). Birds flies is pretty relevant since instead of Trampling Kessig is more like a Burn spell.
2. Mirran Crusader + Hero or Kessig or Swords.. He kills quickly. Already having double strike any pump is a boon. But Kessig is huge. Once you get to X=3 with Kessig he turns into quite an efficient burn spell. The additional 6 mana nets additional 6 damage. Koth Ultimate territory.
3. Primordial Hydra plus Garruk. This one usually wins games. If the hydra survives to be 8-12 counters.. you just draw the cards finding the Conviction and win on the spot. It's my version of the fix. Admittedly you would have won in a turn or so anyway. But but that's another couple turns for them to find removal.
4. Thrun + Kessig Wolf Run.. This guy stays around with inevitability but finally has a means to get through chumps.The size increase allows him to take on any threat.
5. True Conviction + Hero of Bladehold.. This is the only overrun effect (other than Township in a sense) that allows the incoming Tokens to reap the benefit too. That is an extra 16 point life swing typically just off the tokens that come in.
6. True Conviction plus creatures with Trample. The first strike leak over and all the 2nd strike hit the player. So regardless of blockers creatures like Hydra, Primeval Titan, a creature pumped by Kessig will hit for huge. Instantly winning the game through pretty much any board state.
7. True Conviction plus Garruk. Less obvious perhaps but the 3/3 Tokens are very relevant here. Each one is effectively a Titan stopper. This was key for me deciding if Primal Hunter had what it takes besides just the CA. His tokens are just large enough that even through a wrath you still own the board.
8. My threats + Phantasmal Image. This is more of an anti-sinergy. Other than Hero of Bladehold who it almost always pays to be the one who attacks first and my singleton Primeval Titan most of my stuff doesn't pay to clone. While obviously it is a very good way to kill Thrun that's about all the Value they are going to get. Stuff like Crusader works better with cards that can leverage it. Hydra can't be cloned and neither can the Walkers. Unlike Wolf Run where cloning a Primeval might fetch out those Ghost Quarters and Wolf Run needs to play out those Primevals, or where the Wurmcoil clone still does great stuff when it goes to the grave, the opponent can't use clone to catch up with my game state. They can't even clone a Fiend Hunter to get their threat back. I realise the original list is pretty clone safe too but it is a consideration for these sort of decks.
Given all this the deck while very linear can apply constant pressure without just dying out. The key to this is just going bigger. Getting stalled out by board stall is the biggest risk of these lists and instead of trying to play the same game by encouraging attrition I think it makes more sense to just continue to punch through. The advantages are not only is the deck is pretty fast to jumping to where it need to operates it rarely gets stalled out. This makes it very difficult for non-dedicated control decks to deal with it as at every point of the game you are just bigger and better. Even against a deck like Wolf Run I will have Lethal before they can kill with an Inkmoth and can largely ignore Titans and Wurmcoils since by the time they come to the party the opponent is almost dead and I'm ready to drop a Conviction and go even bigger. With this list I feel favorable against every other midrange deck.
All that said it is definitely a pet card of mine and I built my whole deck largely to be able to leverage it. As soon you go weaker on it's utility it isn't worth a card. It requires to have a maximum number of cards like Hero of Bladehold and Primordial Hydra to pay off. If your main threats are sworded Crusaders it is much less interesting..
You are missing the other bonusses of these sword. Yes we can equip and attack on turn 4. And at that point your oppent with have like 4-5 cards in his hand (Depending on the deck ofcourse). So that is solid 8 + 2 x 5 dmg. On my last FNM that is how i won against a solar flare deck (not once, but 3 times i made that combo) on turn 4 i made 8 + 2 x 7 = 22
Yeah you are right.. those free wins are definitely part of the deck. My biggest Grievance with Swords are that need to get to 5 to just drop it down often. Otherwise it cost a developing play. With all the Scars lands I run getting to 4 with a dork is easy but after the 3rd land chances are I'm hitting tapped lands. I was using SoWaP since Solar Flare and UW Blade were popular. This is less the case now. I'm considering trying Angelic Destiny.. It might be weaker but it being 4 seems pretty good curve wise. It also solves the flier issue. Defensively you are the biggest in the air. I was trying to find a good 4 drop flier and at times I liked Archon over Hero of Bladehold but the cost was prohibitive. This does exactly what I needed.
The other thing is I'm been maindecking protection spells. This might seem like a weird move but basically 95% of the time (unless playing against UB) I was just naming some sort of removal with Nevermore. Paying 3 early put me behind a turn. So does leaving 1 mana up, but it is much more reasonable. The evasion is great too. Especially through Solemn and Wurmcoil. However protection from White seems like a nonbo. The reason these 9 counterspell(5 cancel) decks couldn't exist before was spell pierce and I feel we have the tools to turn the tempo back on them. Apostle's Blessing + Autumn's Veil let's us play fish in a sense. Sure it doesn't protect against sweepers but we can still slow roll threats and sweepers are mana intensive enough they don't get to cast their filter spells. And truthfully I'm not worried about any of their threats. Mine are better. I just need to stick them.
This deck does have problems with fliers and I think I am going to start testing Daybreak Ranger in the side... It is probably just me but this deck has been performing better for then my Wolf Run lol...
Lol... Not against Frost Titan... Have to pay two more mana just to target him and then I have to worry about a cancel... DoJ would have been better...
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2x Gideon Jura
2x Garruk Primal Hunter
2x Elspeth Tirel
Creatures - 22
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Mirran Crusader
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Hero of Bladehold
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Sun Titan
2x Sword of War and Peace
2x Sword of Feast and Famine
Enchantments - 4
4x Oblivion Ring
Lands - 24
9x Forest
5x Plains
2x Gavony Township
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Day of Judgment
3x Beast Within
2x Timely Reinforcements
4x Naturalize
3x Nevermore
Still not sold on Nevermore but I am not sure what to replace it with... I sure do miss Summoning Trap lol...
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You mind posting a list and what do you mean by 3-4?
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Lol... Yeah a opening hand like that would be a auto mull... One reason I took out Elesh. I wanted my curve to end at 6. I am either swinging with a Crusader on turn 3 or a Mana dork with a sword. Thrun and Hero are my finishers while the Plainswalkers help me if I am getting in trouble in the end game. Sun Titan and Wurmcoil are in there for just in case. I really have not had any trouble with opening hands or deciding which card I want to play next...
I tried GSZ while back but there where not that many green targets... So I upped the land instead to 24 and in the end put in more mana dorks.... Where you running the Pilgram in your build? That is what I found was really the last part of the puzzle I was missing to smooth out my curve...
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3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Skinshifter
3 Blade Splicer
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Sun Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Beast Within
Sorceries
2 Day of Judgment
Enchantments
2 Oblivion Ring
Artifacts
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
Planeswalkers
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Gideon Jura
2 Elspeth Tirel
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Gavony Township
2 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
7 Plains
9 Forest
3 Grand Abolisher
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Spellskite
1 Day of Judgment
3 Dismember
Replaced Viridian Emissary with Avacyn's Pilgrim because its guaranteed ramp the next turn. Ramping into a turn 3 Garruk Relentless or Solemn Simulacrum is very good, and the aggro from Viridian Emissary was only ok. I don't like my opponent being able to determine how things go.
WUR Geist Midrange WUR
Commander
W Nahiri's Celestial Foundry W
WB Orzhov Inquisition (Cleric Tribal) WB
WUBRG Progenitus's Prismatic Domain WUBRG
WURG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Love You WURG
WUG Rafiq of the Many Auracrafting WUG
WRG Hazezon Tamar Overrun WRG
G Seton's Druid Ramp G
What do you think about sideboarding Ghost Quarter against Kessig? Has the added benefit of taking out Inkmoth Nexus and Moorland Haunt. The Nexus has been giving me lots of trouble.
WUR Geist Midrange WUR
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WB Orzhov Inquisition (Cleric Tribal) WB
WUBRG Progenitus's Prismatic Domain WUBRG
WURG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Love You WURG
WUG Rafiq of the Many Auracrafting WUG
WRG Hazezon Tamar Overrun WRG
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Inkmoth doesnt scare me its Kessig+Primeval mainly or Kessig + Hero and I cant do anything about it so i am thinking about ghost quarter i only have one so far so i need to get some
I hold my beast within fr Kessig and Oxid Ridge.
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Run Garruk Primal Hunter and Gideon before running Elspeth and if you do run Elspeth as a one of... I am testing as a two of but she seems more as a support planeswalker then anything else.
I have gone back and forth with Sun Titan. Three IMO is to much and one is to little. I have run with and without and there where games where he has swung it back in my favor especially if he sticks.
Agreed... Even with SoFaF anything more then two seems to much...
24 is fine... You really don't want to miss that early land drop for turns three and four. About your list though I would run either the Pilgram or Emmissary but not both and Pilgram over Emmissary. The Pilgram smooths out your curve and allows you to skip those two drops right into a Sword or Mirrian.
Naturalize>Revoke Excistence... Either one I would run as a four of...
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4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Hero of Bladehold
3x Sun Titan
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
Planeswalkers (4)
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Gideon Jura
2x Sword of War and Peace
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
Spells (6)
4x Oblivion Ring
2x Beast Within
Lands (24)
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Sunpetal Grove
7x Forest
7x Plains
2x Gavony Township
3x Celestial Purge
2x Day of Judgment
4x Naturalize
2x Nevermore
1x Beast Within
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Timely Reinforcements
I found Elspeth Tirel to be rather underwhelming and out of place in this deck. The life gain never really seemed significant or needed when she was in hand, and the tokens never really seemed necessary. In her place I brought in some Beast Withins to add a little more main deck removal tech.
I'm running 3 swords mainly because that's all I have. haha. Haven't had any problems with just the 3.
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Thanks! I'm kinda new to this mid-range thing. I've been a hardcore aggro player for the past 6 years!
Good question. Honestly, I haven't tested my sideboard a whole. I pretty much just threw it together. I automatically include Purge in any list I run Oblivion Ring in for the Mono-Red matchup. By siding out Oblivion Ring for Celestial Purge, you get a cheaper and faster(which is key against mono-red) removal to deal with Koth and Chandra's Phoenix, or anything else that annoys you.
Something better could probably go in that slot based on this deck, but I won't know that until I do further testing.
Standard
WRBoros HumansRW
EDH
GWUPhelddagrif (Group Hug)UWG
URTibor and Lumia (Chaos)RU
URTibor and Lumia (Storm Aggro)RU
2x Gideon Jura
3x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Creatures - 22
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Mirran Crusader
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Hero of Bladehold
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Sun Titan
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Sword of Body and Mind
Spells - 2
2x Beast Within
Enchantments - 4
4x Oblivion Ring
Lands - 24
8x Forest
4x Plains
2x Gavony Township
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Day of Judgment
1x Beast Within
2x Timely Reinforcements
4x Naturalize
4x Surgical Extraction
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
Trade Thread: Click Here
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Looks sorta like mine. haha. I like the 3 Garruks. Might have to give that a shot.
Standard
WRBoros HumansRW
EDH
GWUPhelddagrif (Group Hug)UWG
URTibor and Lumia (Chaos)RU
URTibor and Lumia (Storm Aggro)RU
I like this. It's more inline with what I've been doing(1 to 3). I just think you are a tiny bit too top heavy. You probably can run pretty hot and not worry about it, but you are running 9 5+ drops. Whereas I think the suitable number for the amount of ramp/land here is about 7-8. The core pieces and planeswalker choices look good (I run the same planeswalker suite, I'm happy to see you've dropped Elspeth). Your removal numbers at 6 look good too along with 3 amplifiers(swords).
I actually don't have much more to say than that. The list looks good other than the amount of top end. Looking at the proactive curve you have:
1: 8
3: 7
4: 6
5: 5
6: 4
Compared to a deck like Fires which ran the same 8 T1 mana dorks(and 25 lands):
1: 8
3: 8
4: 7
5: 4
6: 3
I might be just tempted to cut 1 6 drop for 1 more land. Simply off the fact you really want to ensure you curve out to atleast 4 if you face opponents that are gunning for the birds. I was running 24 lands with 8 dorks for a while with 8 on top and I eventually just added the land. Too many games where although I curved with dorks I missed my 4th land drop. If I could use that to pull ahead good, but often something like DoJ was auto loss there. I'm still working on exact numbers myself.. But that would be my only suggestion.
How do you sideboard Surgical Extraction in? What do you take out typically? I've found it very difficult to fit in that sort of card. I found I would often be better keeping in threats rather than siding those in.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
I tend to side it against control and this is what I do...
-1 Hero of Bladhold
+1 Thrun, the Last Troll
-2 Beast Within
-2 Sun Titan
+4 Surgical Extraction
Forgot there was one more small change to that sideboard... I took out the Beast Within and added another Timely Reinforcements...
Edit:
That is exactly what is is for... everyone seems to be running some variant of Wolf Run (including me lol...) and with a Sun Titan it can get pretty nuts. You are honestly not going to be able to stop them from ramping and I don't target there Inkmoth. I like to use it on the Wolf Run since there probably only running two. I have gone back and forth with this because the Quarters can slow your deck down. Killing off my mana dorks and being stuck with one quarter and one other land and not being able to play my double whites or triple green can be frustrating. There is just so much to answer against a wolf run deck and one of the reason why I just don't see this deck becoming tier 1. If it was up to me I would run zero quarters but against wolf run you need answers and alot of them...
It is defiantly tier 1.5 and deserves a competitive slot because it is can smash all those rogue decks pretty well but to do it consistently against other tier 1 decks I just don't see it happening. At a FNM take this deck and have fun... if you are headed to a competitive function you might want to take something else...
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
Trade Thread: Click Here
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I see... Hero for Thrun is equal gain.. then 2 removal and 2 titans.. for extractions. Yeah that seems reasonable. I usually like the Beasts but that is because I tend to attack their lands a lot. Like if I want to pressure them trying to counter my spells...Right now Control decks really need to use that expensive instant speed drawing so if you attack theirs lands and force them to counter spells every turn they might end up missing drops or missing action. Hmm.. I guess I should post my current list since I haven't for almost a week (and the other thread is now redundant).
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Clifftop Retreat
4 Forest
3 Plains
4 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures(22):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Primordial Hydra
4 Hero of Bladehold
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Gideon Jura
Answers(5):
3 Beast Within
2 Oblivion Ring
Other(2):
2 True Conviction
3 Red Sun's Zenith
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Naturalize
3 Timely Reinforcement
2 Nevermore
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Garruk Relentless
Newest thing I'm trying is the Relentless.. I'm a bit scared of Infect.. not sure if Gideon is enough. Might just be a wasted slot. I cut the swords main since I have the Kessig's for evasion. Mirran Crusader kills just as fast with Kessig as it does with a Sword pretty much. You can't sword of Crusader and attack til til turn 4 anyway. At which point maybe they can block it with an artifact etc.. T4 at 5 mana is how much it will cost to cast and equip a sword (that might be countered) where as Kessig will do that 8 damage with Crusader for you as well.
I haven't tested this latest version that much yet. I think I may want the 3rd Thrun somewhere. Also I'm not sure if the 4th Kessig is needed.. it would probably prefer to be a Plains.. But I think I definitely want to have it and with recent hate multiples is good. Ghost Quarter sets the opponent back lands even more.
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Interesting choices you have there... I have seen Mirrian starting to creep up in Wolf Run builds and he is pretty boss with Kessig...
How has the Hydra been lately? And an interesting choice with True Convictions also... would like to hear your reasoning on that card? Don't think I have seen that in a list yet...
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
Trade Thread: Click Here
Image Disclaimer: Please review User Notes before clicking infraction.
Hydra has been eating more doom blades lately. He interacted a bit better with Dismember. Still as a 3 drop he puts on the adequate pressure against a lot of decks. Any low removal decks still get beat out by him. He basically allows me to devastate kill Wolf Run Ramp. Hero of Bladehold is the best against RG, but Hydra trumps mono green since you can play it out smaller without fear of Slagstorm and it will be bigger than Dungrove. A quick Nevermore on Beast Within and they can't win. My creatures are bigger (especially with Conviction).
Sure .. I've probably gone over this to death in the GW Mythic thread, but basically let me grab an excerpt about my list from that thread:
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Yeah you are right.. those free wins are definitely part of the deck. My biggest Grievance with Swords are that need to get to 5 to just drop it down often. Otherwise it cost a developing play. With all the Scars lands I run getting to 4 with a dork is easy but after the 3rd land chances are I'm hitting tapped lands. I was using SoWaP since Solar Flare and UW Blade were popular. This is less the case now. I'm considering trying Angelic Destiny.. It might be weaker but it being 4 seems pretty good curve wise. It also solves the flier issue. Defensively you are the biggest in the air. I was trying to find a good 4 drop flier and at times I liked Archon over Hero of Bladehold but the cost was prohibitive. This does exactly what I needed.
The other thing is I'm been maindecking protection spells. This might seem like a weird move but basically 95% of the time (unless playing against UB) I was just naming some sort of removal with Nevermore. Paying 3 early put me behind a turn. So does leaving 1 mana up, but it is much more reasonable. The evasion is great too. Especially through Solemn and Wurmcoil. However protection from White seems like a nonbo. The reason these 9 counterspell(5 cancel) decks couldn't exist before was spell pierce and I feel we have the tools to turn the tempo back on them. Apostle's Blessing + Autumn's Veil let's us play fish in a sense. Sure it doesn't protect against sweepers but we can still slow roll threats and sweepers are mana intensive enough they don't get to cast their filter spells. And truthfully I'm not worried about any of their threats. Mine are better. I just need to stick them.
Anyway this is the list I'm trying now.
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Clifftop Retreat
4 Forest
3 Plains
4 Kessig Wolf Run
Creatures(21):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Primordial Hydra
3 Hero of Bladehold
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Pumps(5):
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Angelic Destiny
2 True Conviction
Other(5):
2 Apostle's Blessing
2 Beast Within
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Autumn's Veil
2 Arc Trail
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Naturalize
3 Timely Reinforcement
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Gideon Jura
GWU Knightfall Modern
UW Tempo Legacy
UGR Burning Wish Cobra Vintage
Commander
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader G
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons WG
Legacy
GU 12 Post UG
Trade Thread: Click Here
Image Disclaimer: Please review User Notes before clicking infraction.