Having had so much fun playing with the U mill deck on Duels of the Planeswalkers, I decided to see if there were enough pieces in standard to build a fun mill deck. I've never had fun with the turbo fog style of milling, so I'm hoping that this can be a more proactive take on mill. Here's what I've gotten together so far, including cards from M13:
This is the basic outline of the deck. The basic goal of the deck is to burn through your opponent's library as quickly as possible, while using Reforge the Soul to mill your opponent more and draw more mill cards.
(Note: I am not trying to use Jace's Phantasm as an attacker in this deck. It just happens to be a great blocker against Restoration Angel and Geist of St. Traft.)
Alright, so opinions, suggestions, ideas?
(Based on one of the questions, I switched Jace for Increasing Confusion)
Why are you not using Increasing Confusion? That is easily the strongest mill card in Standard.
Also, Sands of Delirium may be helpful in this deck. Have you thought of using that?
Actually, I did consider Increasing Confusion. I will probably wind up putting it back in the deck once I can get to proxying it up (well, proxying the M13 cards) and testing it. When I was putting it together, I wound up cutting it for Jace. My logic was that, on average it would mill from 8 to 15 cards. Jace was a guaranteed mill of 10 cards for 5 mana, with the possibility for another 10 cards if it survived a turn.
I'll probably put it back in for Jace, because with my Reforge the Soul strategy, I don't want a lot of high cost cards in my hand, since I might not be able to play them out before drawing a new hand. Increasing Confusion also works better in that type of strategy since it has flashback, which means that if it gets stuck in my hand on a reforge, I don't lose value.
About Sands of Delirium, it may just be me, but I really don't think that card is good. It would be much better in a turbo-fog style mill deck, which can stall the opponent out, and just mill them for 5-6 at the end of each of their turns. But I don't really want to do that. In addition, I would expect that I will be tapping out most turns to play the mill cards I draw and setting up my next Reforge the Soul.
Some cards that I think I should add in and some changes I'm going to be making:
-turning 1x Whipflare into another Bonfire, and then taking out the two remaining Whipflare for 2x Vapor Snag
-I think I should add 3-4x Gitaxian Probe to the list.
-Faithless Looting could be good in this deck, but I'm not sure about this.
-another card I forgot about is Jace's Erasure. It seems good for this deck, but maybe someone with more experience with mill can tell me if it's worth the card.
The reason I want to add Vapor Snag and Gitaxian Probe is because, if I draw a Noxious Revival and have Reforge the Soul, I want to know if they have good cards in their hand, so I increase the odds of devaluing my opponent's hand. Nothing sucks more than helping your opponent kill you.
-another card I forgot about is Jace's Erasure. It seems good for this deck, but maybe someone with more experience with mill can tell me if it's worth the card.
Typically, jace's erasure isn't worth it. But with Reforge the Soul drawing you seven cards, I'm kind of in love with the interaction. I'd have to proxy it up and test the deck, as the Erasure's can be too slow on their own and may just make the deck worse.
But I agree with Devastation Tide should be in the deck. Bounce everything back to their hand and then make them discard everything? Yes please. I used to do that trick with vapor snags and Jace's Archivist. And it was fantastic.
I didn't even think about Devastation Tide. I'll have to look and see what I should take out for it. That seems like an awesome suggestion.
Anyway, I was able to proxy this deck up yesterday and play a game against Delver (I didn't have enough time for a full match). This is the list I ran:
I wound up losing the game, but I really enjoyed how well the deck worked. Between Bonfire of the Damned, Noxious Revival, and Ponder, I was able to keep the board reasonably under control. In the end, I milled my opponent down to 10 cards before he flashes in Restoration Angel in response to a Reforge the Soul. In the reforge the Soul, he drew a Runechanter's Pike (because of all the mill, he had more than enough instants and sorceries in his graveyard). But prior to that, I had been around 10 life, so I think the deck does a good job of keeping me from taking a to of damage while it does its thing.
Now, this game has left me considering adding Tormod's Crypt (it's getting reprinted in M13). The question is, should I run it maindeck or sideboard? There are definitely enough decks that interact with the graveyard that it could be relevant maindeck. And since it is 0 mana, it won't slow my tempo, and after I Reforge the Soul, I get the card it costs back. The biggest problem is that putting it in the maindeck would mean yet another card i would have to take out.
I didn't even think about Devastation Tide. I'll have to look and see what I should take out for it. That seems like an awesome suggestion.
Anyway, I was able to proxy this deck up yesterday and play a game against Delver (I didn't have enough time for a full match). This is the list I ran:
I wound up losing the game, but I really enjoyed how well the deck worked. Between Bonfire of the Damned, Noxious Revival, and Ponder, I was able to keep the board reasonably under control. In the end, I milled my opponent down to 10 cards before he flashes in Restoration Angel in response to a Reforge the Soul. In the reforge the Soul, he drew a Runechanter's Pike (because of all the mill, he had more than enough instants and sorceries in his graveyard). But prior to that, I had been around 10 life, so I think the deck does a good job of keeping me from taking a to of damage while it does its thing.
Now, this game has left me considering adding Tormad's Crypt (it's getting reprinted in M13). The question is, should I run it maindeck or sideboard? There are definitely enough decks that interact with the graveyard that it could be relevant maindeck. And since it is 0 mana, it won't slow my tempo, and after I Reforge the Soul, I get the card it costs back. The biggest problem is that putting it in the maindeck would mean yet another card i would have to take out.
Glad to hear it. How good is dream twist? I remember back in the old mill threads that a lot of people didn't like running it, preferring something to control the board more (usually where counters/graveyard hate came into play) But, with getting rid of your hand... man I need to playtest this. I'm currently away on an internship, but I'll be back where I can playtest in the next few days.
Also, two quick things. You are running Jace's Phantasm right? You seem like you need a flying blocker and there's 3 creatures missing in your list. Also, if you run tide, just remember it will bounce your erasure as well.
Glad to hear it. How good is dream twist? I remember back in the old mill threads that a lot of people didn't like running it, preferring something to control the board more (usually where counters/graveyard hate came into play) But, with getting rid of your hand... man I need to playtest this. I'm currently away on an internship, but I'll be back where I can playtest in the next few days.
Also, two quick things. You are running Jace's Phantasm right? You seem like you need a flying blocker and there's 3 creatures missing in your list. Also, if you run tide, just remember it will bounce your erasure as well.
About how good Dream Twist is, I really don't know after only one game. As I get more testing in, I'll see how things work out. About Jace's Phantasm, yeah, I plan on running it. I just cut it for the time being because they don't have a picture for it for my proxy. I was willing to make that sacrifice for Mind Sculpt, but since I also needed to test out Jace's Erasure, I decided to forgoe my testing of Jace's Phantasm for the time being. It actually would have been very good during the game, because I wound up getting my opponent down to 9 life off of his phyrexian spells and bonfire. He would have forced my opponent to be more hesitant with using phyrexian spells.
About how good Dream Twist is, I really don't know after only one game. As I get more testing in, I'll see how things work out. About Jace's Phantasm, yeah, I plan on running it. I just cut it for the time being because they don't have a picture for it for my proxy. I was willing to make that sacrifice for Mind Sculpt, but since I also needed to test out Jace's Erasure, I decided to forgoe my testing of Jace's Phantasm for the time being. It actually would have been very good during the game, because I wound up getting my opponent down to 9 life off of his phyrexian spells and bonfire. He would have forced my opponent to be more hesitant with using phyrexian spells.
How did the Whip Flare work out? Anytime you needed extra reach? Debating testing slagstorm in its place once I get to a place I can actually playtest >< Sorry for the questions, just trying to get a feel for what you've already tested.
I didn't even think about Devastation Tide. I'll have to look and see what I should take out for it. That seems like an awesome suggestion.
Anyway, I was able to proxy this deck up yesterday and play a game against Delver (I didn't have enough time for a full match). This is the list I ran:
I wound up losing the game, but I really enjoyed how well the deck worked. Between Bonfire of the Damned, Noxious Revival, and Ponder, I was able to keep the board reasonably under control. In the end, I milled my opponent down to 10 cards before he flashes in Restoration Angel in response to a Reforge the Soul. In the reforge the Soul, he drew a Runechanter's Pike (because of all the mill, he had more than enough instants and sorceries in his graveyard). But prior to that, I had been around 10 life, so I think the deck does a good job of keeping me from taking a to of damage while it does its thing.
Now, this game has left me considering adding Tormod's Crypt (it's getting reprinted in M13). The question is, should I run it maindeck or sideboard? There are definitely enough decks that interact with the graveyard that it could be relevant maindeck. And since it is 0 mana, it won't slow my tempo, and after I Reforge the Soul, I get the card it costs back. The biggest problem is that putting it in the maindeck would mean yet another card i would have to take out.
Thanks, hope Tide helps. Seems like it would be good with your Augur and Snapcasters too, how has Augur been btw? How fast is the deck?
3x Jace's Phantasm
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Augur of Bolas
Board Control (9)
4x Ponder
3x Whipflare
2x Bonfire of the Damned
4x Thought Scour
4x Dream Twist
4x Mind Sculpt
2x Increasing Confusion
3x Reforge the Soul
3x Noxious Revival
Lands (21)
3x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
10x Island
4x Mountain
This is the basic outline of the deck. The basic goal of the deck is to burn through your opponent's library as quickly as possible, while using Reforge the Soul to mill your opponent more and draw more mill cards.
(Note: I am not trying to use Jace's Phantasm as an attacker in this deck. It just happens to be a great blocker against Restoration Angel and Geist of St. Traft.)
Alright, so opinions, suggestions, ideas?
(Based on one of the questions, I switched Jace for Increasing Confusion)
Also, Sands of Delirium may be helpful in this deck. Have you thought of using that?
Actually, I did consider Increasing Confusion. I will probably wind up putting it back in the deck once I can get to proxying it up (well, proxying the M13 cards) and testing it. When I was putting it together, I wound up cutting it for Jace. My logic was that, on average it would mill from 8 to 15 cards. Jace was a guaranteed mill of 10 cards for 5 mana, with the possibility for another 10 cards if it survived a turn.
I'll probably put it back in for Jace, because with my Reforge the Soul strategy, I don't want a lot of high cost cards in my hand, since I might not be able to play them out before drawing a new hand. Increasing Confusion also works better in that type of strategy since it has flashback, which means that if it gets stuck in my hand on a reforge, I don't lose value.
About Sands of Delirium, it may just be me, but I really don't think that card is good. It would be much better in a turbo-fog style mill deck, which can stall the opponent out, and just mill them for 5-6 at the end of each of their turns. But I don't really want to do that. In addition, I would expect that I will be tapping out most turns to play the mill cards I draw and setting up my next Reforge the Soul.
Some cards that I think I should add in and some changes I'm going to be making:
-turning 1x Whipflare into another Bonfire, and then taking out the two remaining Whipflare for 2x Vapor Snag
-I think I should add 3-4x Gitaxian Probe to the list.
-Faithless Looting could be good in this deck, but I'm not sure about this.
-another card I forgot about is Jace's Erasure. It seems good for this deck, but maybe someone with more experience with mill can tell me if it's worth the card.
The reason I want to add Vapor Snag and Gitaxian Probe is because, if I draw a Noxious Revival and have Reforge the Soul, I want to know if they have good cards in their hand, so I increase the odds of devaluing my opponent's hand. Nothing sucks more than helping your opponent kill you.
Needs moar Delver.
Typically, jace's erasure isn't worth it. But with Reforge the Soul drawing you seven cards, I'm kind of in love with the interaction. I'd have to proxy it up and test the deck, as the Erasure's can be too slow on their own and may just make the deck worse.
But I agree with Devastation Tide should be in the deck. Bounce everything back to their hand and then make them discard everything? Yes please. I used to do that trick with vapor snags and Jace's Archivist. And it was fantastic.
EDH
Braids, Conjurer Adept
Tibor and Lumia
Glissa, the Traitor
Modern
Affinity
Anyway, I was able to proxy this deck up yesterday and play a game against Delver (I didn't have enough time for a full match). This is the list I ran:
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Augur of Bolas
Board Control (9)
4x Ponder
2x Whipflare
3x Bonfire of the Damned
4x Thought Scour
4x Dream Twist
4x Mind Sculpt
3x Jace's Erasure
2x Increasing Confusion
3x Reforge the Soul
3x Noxious Revival
Lands (21)
2x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Sulfur Falls
10x Island
5x Mountain
I wound up losing the game, but I really enjoyed how well the deck worked. Between Bonfire of the Damned, Noxious Revival, and Ponder, I was able to keep the board reasonably under control. In the end, I milled my opponent down to 10 cards before he flashes in Restoration Angel in response to a Reforge the Soul. In the reforge the Soul, he drew a Runechanter's Pike (because of all the mill, he had more than enough instants and sorceries in his graveyard). But prior to that, I had been around 10 life, so I think the deck does a good job of keeping me from taking a to of damage while it does its thing.
Now, this game has left me considering adding Tormod's Crypt (it's getting reprinted in M13). The question is, should I run it maindeck or sideboard? There are definitely enough decks that interact with the graveyard that it could be relevant maindeck. And since it is 0 mana, it won't slow my tempo, and after I Reforge the Soul, I get the card it costs back. The biggest problem is that putting it in the maindeck would mean yet another card i would have to take out.
Glad to hear it. How good is dream twist? I remember back in the old mill threads that a lot of people didn't like running it, preferring something to control the board more (usually where counters/graveyard hate came into play) But, with getting rid of your hand... man I need to playtest this. I'm currently away on an internship, but I'll be back where I can playtest in the next few days.
Also, two quick things. You are running Jace's Phantasm right? You seem like you need a flying blocker and there's 3 creatures missing in your list. Also, if you run tide, just remember it will bounce your erasure as well.
EDH
Braids, Conjurer Adept
Tibor and Lumia
Glissa, the Traitor
Modern
Affinity
About how good Dream Twist is, I really don't know after only one game. As I get more testing in, I'll see how things work out. About Jace's Phantasm, yeah, I plan on running it. I just cut it for the time being because they don't have a picture for it for my proxy. I was willing to make that sacrifice for Mind Sculpt, but since I also needed to test out Jace's Erasure, I decided to forgoe my testing of Jace's Phantasm for the time being. It actually would have been very good during the game, because I wound up getting my opponent down to 9 life off of his phyrexian spells and bonfire. He would have forced my opponent to be more hesitant with using phyrexian spells.
How did the Whip Flare work out? Anytime you needed extra reach? Debating testing slagstorm in its place once I get to a place I can actually playtest >< Sorry for the questions, just trying to get a feel for what you've already tested.
EDH
Braids, Conjurer Adept
Tibor and Lumia
Glissa, the Traitor
Modern
Affinity
Thanks, hope Tide helps. Seems like it would be good with your Augur and Snapcasters too, how has Augur been btw? How fast is the deck?
Needs moar Delver.