Speaking of which, Blue Sun's Zenith is AMAZING. Used it to great effect during tapout wars against Solar Flare, and it won me a game when I topdecked it against BW Tokens with no cards in hand, nothing in the bin and 11 lands in play.
The other thing I discovered is a new, slight anti-synergy between Ravings and USZ — you don't want to cast Ravings when you're holding a Zenith, but you'll likely end up holding the Zenith for quite a while, which stifles your ability to cast Ravings and you may end up making subpar plays. I think the best thing to do in that situation is just go for the 'correct' play, ignoring the risk of dumping Zenith (unless it's against control — then slow-rolling the Zenith with counterbackup should be your gameplan).
I think the reason Faithless Looting is so bad for us is that anything we want to dump already has a natural mechanism for getting there: simply casting it. All Looting does is save mana, which is completely pointless when you're losing CA at the same time. You can just Ravings for :1mana::symr:, and you get the benefit of Ravings's effect on top.
Would it be a particularly terrible play to, for example, leave 4 mana untapped during your opponent's turn to threaten snapping back a mana leak, and then cast USZ for 1 on their end step, shuffling it back into your library? 4 mana for 1 card is definitely steep, but it isn't doing much for you sitting in your hand in the early game, and there's a good chance we'll run into it again with all the draw BV variants run. I feel like it's fair to outright trade it for another card if they don't play anything worth countering. The fact that it's an instant makes all the difference over Looting in my opinion, as I will rarely if ever play a draw spell on my turn, unless I'm flashing them back to burn my opponent out or if I want to prevent a DFC from flipping.
As an aside, I think it's interesting how looting was hailed as the card that was going to take BV to top tier status, and within a day of release, it's already been found practically unworthy of inclusion. It does nothing for card advantage and only fosters card quality, which in our deck is rarely an issue, since every card, including land, is potentially a threat already. We don't have the Roar of the Wurm-style flashback cards that we want to dump.
Would it be a particularly terrible play to, for example, leave 4 mana untapped during your opponent's turn to threaten snapping back a mana leak, and then cast USZ for 1 on their end step, shuffling it back into your library? 4 mana for 1 card is definitely steep, but it isn't doing much for you sitting in your hand in the early game, and there's a good chance we'll run into it again with all the draw BV variants run. I feel like it's fair to outright trade it for another card if they don't play anything worth countering. The fact that it's an instant makes all the difference over Looting in my opinion, as I will rarely if ever play a draw spell on my turn, unless I'm flashing them back to burn my opponent out or if I want to prevent a DFC from flipping.
As an aside, I think it's interesting how looting was hailed as the card that was going to take BV to top tier status, and within a day of release, it's already been found practically unworthy of inclusion. It does nothing for card advantage and only fosters card quality, which in our deck is rarely an issue, since every card, including land, is potentially a threat already. We don't have the Roar of the Wurm-style flashback cards that we want to dump.
Yes, that is a terrible play. A card still a card, and a cantrip with no advantage whatsoever would be bad for one mana, let alone 4. I see no reason why you couldn't have waited a turn and cast it for x=2, or merely wait another 3 and have an amazing card on your hands. If it's turn 4, you're only a few turns away from making good use of it.
I agree; it's ironic. However, to be fair, I have been testing the card for about 3 weeks.
Really wish we had a city of brass effect. the flash back costs are so spread out it's hard to get the right value and actually have your mana.
Why do we need it? While it would obviously help, there's nothing wrong with the deck's mana at the moment. By virtue of having 66% dual lands in your manabase, you are actually able to consistently get either :symu::symu: or :symr::symr: on turn 3, and :symw::symw: shortly after. You also run a few splash lands to get for Ancient Grudge, or for Forbidden Alchemy, or you can even Snapcaster them in a pinch.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Really wish we had a city of brass effect. the flash back costs are so spread out it's hard to get the right value and actually have your mana.
It's no City of Brass, but Shimmering Grotto as a 2-of can potentially smooth out some of the less dedicated splashes for us. Of course, it turns alchemy into an 8 mana FB, which is somewhat ridiculous, but this deck is in it for the long haul, so you'll either draw the duals you need or have plenty of mana to flash it back before the game ends. The mana base is probably the most important part of building this deck. It's the part that I keep tweaking, while most other things remain the same or very similar.
Yes, that is a terrible play. A card still a card, and a cantrip with no advantage whatsoever would be bad for one mana, let alone 4. I see no reason why you couldn't have waited a turn and cast it for x=2, or merely wait another 3 and have an amazing card on your hands. If it's turn 4, you're only a few turns away from making good use of it.
I agree; it's ironic. However, to be fair, I have been testing the card for about 3 weeks.
I should have clarified, I was talking in particular about the anti-synergy with Ravings you mentioned, where the threat of dumping USZ would cause you to make subpar plays if you had both in your hand. I suppose the play I mentioned would fall under that same category, heh.
And I too sleeved up proxies once it had been spoiled (since it was the first card spoiled, I had plenty of time to playtest it) and I discovered that I only ever wanted to see it in my opening hand. Topdecking it made me feel dirty, my current incarnation replaced all copies with Ravings and Alchemy, which is why I'm very interested in how USZ turns out as a draw engine for us.
I should have clarified, I was talking in particular about the anti-synergy with Ravings you mentioned, where the threat of dumping USZ would cause you to make subpar plays if you had both in your hand. I suppose the play I mentioned would fall under that same category, heh.
And I too sleeved up proxies once it had been spoiled (since it was the first card spoiled, I had plenty of time to playtest it) and I discovered that I only ever wanted to see it in my opening hand. Topdecking it made me feel dirty, my current incarnation replaced all copies with Ravings and Alchemy, which is why I'm very interested in how USZ turns out as a draw engine for us.
I'm well aware of what you were referring to. What I was meaning is that you should still cast Ravings as if you're happy to discard it — don't play Ravings around the fact you have a USZ you want to keep.
The only situation under which that's a defendable play is if you have exactly 4 mana left, you have no other flashback draw spells, and need to find a particular card as your only out, next turn. For example, if they have lethal damage on the board and you need a sweeper to live, then cantripping increases the probability you'll get what you need.
seems like it would really help in this area, and it also provides some ramp, too.
I think it's absolutely godawful and shouldn't be looked at twice (or thought about twice, hehe). But that's my opinion; go ahead and test it if you think it's warranted. I've learned my lesson after convincing everyone that Looting is an automatic playset and having egg on my face a week later.
If it costed less, or entered untapped, or could be used for spells with flashback at any point, then it might be playable. But as it is, it does too little, for too much mana, and comes in too late.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
seems like it would really help in this area, and it also provides some ramp, too.
It's just too little, too late. If it cost 2 or didn't come into play tapped or if the mana could be spent on spells not cast from a graveyard as well, it would be great. It would possibly be playable if it only provided 1 mana of any color for flashback spells instead of 2, as long as it cost 2 and didn't come into play tapped. Pristine Talisman is a good ramp artifact, primarily because you can tap it for mana the same turn you play it, meaning you can play it on turn 4 and still have mana open for mana leak. The life gain doesn't hurt either.
Haha, looks like jaden already said what I was gonna say.
If it costed less, or entered untapped, or could be used for spells with flashback at any point, then it might be playable. But as it is, it does too little, for too much mana, and comes in too late.
It's just too little, too late. If it cost 2 or didn't come into play tapped or if the mana could be spent on spells not cast from a graveyard as well, it would be great. It would possibly be playable if it only provided 1 mana of any color for flashback spells instead of 2, as long as it cost 2 and didn't come into play tapped.
Winning.
Pristine Talisman is pretty good. I just don't have the room, and Timely is better out of the board. It's definitely worth consideration in Grixis lists, though.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
The temblor should really be a slagstorm, but I don't have any presently. The actual spells seem to be about what everyone else is running give or take a few, so I guess I'd like feedback primarily on the mana base, as that seems to be what makes or breaks this deck.
The temblor should really be a slagstorm, but I don't have any presently. The actual spells seem to be about what everyone else is running give or take a few, so I guess I'd like feedback primarily on the mana base, as that seems to be what makes or breaks this deck.
Nice, well-rounded list (minus Slagstorms obviously). I personally prefer Oblivion Rings in the main, but in the board is fine too.
Playing basic Plains probably isn't a good idea. I'd try to replace them with Seachrome Coasts. Don't worry about the number of basics, I've been running with 8-10 for ages and it's been fine for me. Other than that, the mana looks good.
EDIT: Actually, I'd probably play the third Whipflare main or a third Day of Judgment over the Rolling Temblor. With Delver and Lingering Souls in the metagame, you don't want your sweeper to miss those, and Tempered Steel is far less popular than either of those decks. You could replace the fourth Whipflare in the side with either a Rolling Temblor or a Day of Judgment.
Also, you're missing Phantasmal Images. Even if you can only get Phyrexian Metamorph, copy effects are literally the only way to deal with Thrun, and can be good against Geist of Saint Traft too.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I've been doing some testing with USZ and Secrets of the dead and i think I've reached a point I can say I feel we need 1 of each...
Secrets requires you to play clever with it. It would never be put into play until late game, its not a bv and therefore not a wincon so you prioritise but its free card draw that once we have 1 bv down, it will help fuel our win, I'm confident of that
USZ as a 1 of comes back for mulitple uses so does us proud, I know it sucks to dump it with a Ravings but when you need it you'll be saving your mana for either a reactive counterspell/snapcaster into counterspell or if they do nothing draw a fistfull... I'd say never use a USZ unless your drawing 4 at least, instant speed card draw is incredible, I miss Jaces Ingenuity lol
Hope I'm helping people, that's all my opinion, feel free to test yourself and things its just how I feel when I've been playing recently
Secrets can be good in certain situations. However, unless you're already running 12 draw spells and still want more, I'd rather play an extra Ravings/USZ/Alchemy. That's just my opinion, however, and I haven't got around to retesting Secrets.
What's wrong with running 2 copies of USZ? It's an exceptionally small probability that you actually draw two until much later in the game, at which point you can actually make full use of it anyway.
And yes, Jace's Ingenuity would be amazing in this deck. But a good feature of USZ is its scaleability, so even when you're flooded lategame you can come back very quickly. It's almost a blessing that we don't have to choose between them.
And of course, there's no reason to cast USZ below x=3. At six mana it's okay, but I wouldn't do it unless you're either stuck on lands or you have a now-or-never opportunity against Solar Flare.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
MY build is very unique in the sense that I like Card Advantage. I am running the full sets of Secrets of the Dead. The way I see it you drop Secrets of the Dead early so to make all your flashback spells net you more and more cards if they counter it oh well it is one less for your vengeances.
Here is my list:
3x Shimmering Grotto (I have debated this one time and time again. It does what it needs to, it comes in untapped and fixes mana for the deck which is mainly made up of cheap spells so paying 3 instead of two for desperate ravings or think twice is not ridiculous in my opinion.)
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I dont record my results or anything when testing but I can confidently (95% certain) say that whenever I've had 1 bv and 1 secrets on the board then from that point the game has been sown up and I've won...
I like a lot of draw in my build, do I run too much? Lol
As for USZ, I suppose 2 would be acceptable, worth testing but 1 has been doing me fine so far but that may be down to how much draw a run...
Yeah, we couldn't run both and drawing 6-7 cards late game is what makes it just amazing...
On a seperate note, what are peoples current boardwipe numbers?
3 Doj, 2 Slagstorm and 1 Whipflare has been in a few lists I've noticed
Also, I'm still not liking Giestflame, I'm thinking of switching back to Burning oil :/
Why don't you like Geistflame? It's been nothing short of amazing for me.
MY build is very unique in the sense that I like Card Advantage. I am running the full sets of Secrets of the Dead. The way I see it you drop Secrets of the Dead early so to make all your flashback spells net you more and more cards if they counter it oh well it is one less for your vengeances.
Here is my list:
3x Shimmering Grotto (I have debated this one time and time again. It does what it needs to, it comes in untapped and fixes mana for the deck which is mainly made up of cheap spells so paying 3 instead of two for desperate ravings or think twice is not ridiculous in my opinion.)
I'll post a more in-depth response later, but basically the problem with Secrets is that you're adding card draw to your card draw. I'll illustrate it this way: If you drop a BV and flash back two spells, you instantly get a Flame Javelin, that can be split. However, if you drop a Secrets and flash back two spells, you've got a Divination. But what that means is that you need yet more spells to flash back before Secrets actually gives you a tangible advantage, because the flashback ability already essentially reads "draw a card".
Yeah, I did a bad job of explaining it. See if you can find one of my really long arguments against it from the early pages of this thread.
And with Shimmering Grotto, you're not going to be using it for Ravings or Think Twice — you'll be using it for Dissipate, Snapcaster Mage, Slagstorm, Day of Judgment and Forbidden Alchemy's flashback. Now paying one extra starts to become a problem.
Your manabase really needs dual lands: take the linked decklist from my sig and start from there.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
MY build is very unique in the sense that I like Card Advantage. I am running the full sets of Secrets of the Dead. The way I see it you drop Secrets of the Dead early so to make all your flashback spells net you more and more cards if they counter it oh well it is one less for your vengeances.
Here is my list:
3x Shimmering Grotto (I have debated this one time and time again. It does what it needs to, it comes in untapped and fixes mana for the deck which is mainly made up of cheap spells so paying 3 instead of two for desperate ravings or think twice is not ridiculous in my opinion.)
With a Secrets on the board, Faithless Looting is significantly better. With 2 on the board, it's like playing 2 Ravings but without the random factor. So if you're going to run one, it's definitely a good idea to run the other.
Edit: That said, at the risk of sounding like I want all decks to look like mine, I like my Secrets of the Dead in the board so that I can bring them in against control decks, which are actually on the decline it seems, so much so that my secrets my end up being replaced by Phantasmal Image to take care of Thrun, the one card that can bypass my counters and even survive DoJ if mana is left open for regeneration. Burning Vengeance already has an advantage over control, in that we are a control deck that tacks a shock onto our draw. Running a playset of Secrets seems like overkill in any case. I'd try either 2 maindeck and one in the side, or a singleton main and 2 in the side and see how it works for you.
It might just be me, but it looks like you aren't running enough counters or removal. Burning Vengeance is first and foremost a control deck, so you want to be able to keep opponent's threats off the board, either by nuking them, or preventing them from getting there in the first place. The delvers will probably just eat removal before they get the chance to swing more than a couple times, as most decks run some measure of removal in their main 60. If you want them, put them in the board and bring them in game 2, after they're boarded out all their wasted removal.
I tried feeling of dread. I enjoyed it, it's cheap and it can keep your health total from moving for a couple turns. However, in most cases I feel like it would have been more beneficial to just play a board sweeper or have countered the creature in the first place. It stalls for a couple turns, which can be helpful if you're hoping to draw into a devil's play, but you aren't running devil's play, which begs the question: how do you usually win?
MY build is very unique in the sense that I like Card Advantage. I am running the full sets of Secrets of the Dead. The way I see it you drop Secrets of the Dead early so to make all your flashback spells net you more and more cards if they counter it oh well it is one less for your vengeances.
Here is my list:
3x Shimmering Grotto (I have debated this one time and time again. It does what it needs to, it comes in untapped and fixes mana for the deck which is mainly made up of cheap spells so paying 3 instead of two for desperate ravings or think twice is not ridiculous in my opinion.)
Card draw by itself is 100% useless. If you cast think twice, desperate ravings, forbidden alchemy or any other card draw and all it got you was more ways to draw cards, then it was a wasted mana and a wasted spell. It did not improve your board position and it did not get you any closer to killing your opponent. The only thing it did was thing your deck making your next card draw slightly more effective. On the condition you actually get to cast it.
Burning Vengeance is a fantastic enchant since it fixes that inherit problem. You flash back your think twice to burn your opponent off the field, the fact that you got a card to replace it is really just a bonus.
Secrets of the Dead just keeps the problem going. Especially when it is stacked in large numbers. You have 17 spells that do card draw, and only 16 actual spells. Sure you can burn through your deck to find answers, but what happens when your deck has run out of answers and just has ways to draw more land?
It's not that Secrets of the Dead is a bad card, it just doesn't do enough for us to warrant its spot. Your deck only has 2 Board Wipes and no spot removal. You need a pair of oblivion rings and some slagstorms to really get off the ground.
Feeling of Dread is a card I tested for awhile, it is very good in certain situations but flawed in most others. Under ideal conditions, Feeling of Dread stops a pair of Titans from rolling over your face for 2 turns. Essentially making it a fog effect. (Which not 2 pages ago I was just talking about with Gideon). For a deck that likes to go long, stalling them out isn't such a bad deal, but my issue with it is that it is ONLY a stall tactic.
The problem comes in when you have they have 3 or more creatures. Token decks just flat out laugh at you. You spend 4 mana on a fog for one turn, and possibly BV got a trigger? Thats not enough for me. I would rather do the 1-size-kills-all board wipe. Feeling of Dread is another good card, but it just doesn't do enough. It's a cheap flash back, so it makes good "ammo" for when you did stick a few BV's, but that is all it has going for him.
For your manabase, I am out and out siding with Jadencamelot. You need some duals. Glacial Fortress / Clifftop Retreat will go a long ways. Grotto is solid, but the fact that everything costs 1 more will bite you in the ass. Evolving wilds has two big strikes against.
1) On the turn you play it, it is basically a dual land that ALWAYS comes in tapped. Especally late game, Duals will almost always be live. Evolving wilds will 100% get you an active land NEXT turn.
2) Evolving Wilds locks you in to whatever color you chose. Consider a situation where you had 2 mountains, 1 plains and 1 evolving wild in play. In your hand is a mana leak and a Day of Judgment. Which land do you fish out, the one that brings counters alive or board wipes? You will need both eventually, but you can't know which. They could be wrong answer, no matter which way you go, then the other spell has a decent chance of staying dead in your hand while you draw the wrong colors kicking yourself. The correct answer is that your evolving wilds is actually Glacial Fortress is and you never had to make the choice.
@ Jubokko and Jaden - Burning oil just seems better, if its not attacking me then I'm not too bothered about killing it tbh, and then 1 mana extra on normal cost and same albiet different coloured (no issue though for manabase) flashback cost, can be used to kill a titan for equal mana plus a BV trigger in a pinch, I can't hit the player no but in the grand scheme its only one extra BV trigger and I'm hartdly going to lose sleep over it when late game I generally steam roll anyway...
I don't think my reasoning is irrational and I hope it made sense...
What would you argue for Geistflames inclusion over it? The 2 damage to player? The 1 mana difference?
Okay, 1 toughness creatures that will rarely attack but are still high priority targets
All of which have homes in Standard decks, all of which should be burned off the field immediately and all of which can very easily play around never attack yet STILL win the match.
So i have been playing around with burning vengeance for about two weeks now and have had a hair to test out Koth of the Hammer as a two of. He helps as a win con for extra mana for Devil's Play, does 4 damage a turn, untaps a R, and his emblem is yet another direct damage option.
sorry for short post right now, i will put my list up tomorrow. typing on my tablet is not that great.
So i have been playing around with burning vengeance for about two weeks now and have had a hair to test out Koth of the Hammer as a two of. He helps as a win con for extra mana for Devil's Play, does 4 damage a turn, untaps a R, and his emblem is yet another direct damage option.
sorry for short post right now, i will put my list up tomorrow. typing on my tablet is not that great.
Unfortunately, Koth would force us to play way more basic mountains than we should. Not good.
@ Jubokko and Jaden - Burning oil just seems better, if its not attacking me then I'm not too bothered about killing it tbh, and then 1 mana extra on normal cost and same albiet different coloured (no issue though for manabase) flashback cost, can be used to kill a titan for equal mana plus a BV trigger in a pinch, I can't hit the player no but in the grand scheme its only one extra BV trigger and I'm hartdly going to lose sleep over it when late game I generally steam roll anyway...
I don't think my reasoning is irrational and I hope it made sense...
What would you argue for Geistflames inclusion over it? The 2 damage to player? The 1 mana difference?
There are a bunch of creatures that don't necessarily attack that you want to be able to kill; most notably manadorks, but also Grim Lavamancer and a few other red one-drops. And if you're killing a one-drop for two mana, you're not exactly doing yourself a favour.
Not only this, but Burning Oil on turn 2 is our Mana Leak turn, as well as our Ravings/Think Twice turn. Geistflame allows you to take the initiative and out-tempo the tempo deck, just by going EOT Geistflame your Delver, untap and hold Leak. This play works against almost every archetype, notably UW Humans (Champion of the Parish/Gideon's Lawkeeper), RDW (Stromkirk/Lavamancer/etc.), Tempered Steel (Signal Pest, Vault Skirge, etc.), and any deck playing manadorks.
Also, Burning Oil is completely dead against Control and Wolf Run, while Geistflame is at the very least a Shock.
EDIT: Also Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is going to see a fair bit of play, and once they see Burning Oil they won't be attacking with her while you hold up two three mana. Geistflame is a nice and easy answer that doesn't set you back a turn.
Card draw by itself is 100% useless. If you cast think twice, desperate ravings, forbidden alchemy or any other card draw and all it got you was more ways to draw cards, then it was a wasted mana and a wasted spell. It did not improve your board position and it did not get you any closer to killing your opponent. The only thing it did was thing your deck making your next card draw slightly more effective. On the condition you actually get to cast it.
Burning Vengeance is a fantastic enchant since it fixes that inherit problem. You flash back your think twice to burn your opponent off the field, the fact that you got a card to replace it is really just a bonus.
Secrets of the Dead just keeps the problem going. Especially when it is stacked in large numbers. You have 17 spells that do card draw, and only 16 actual spells. Sure you can burn through your deck to find answers, but what happens when your deck has run out of answers and just has ways to draw more land?
It's not that Secrets of the Dead is a bad card, it just doesn't do enough for us to warrant its spot. Your deck only has 2 Board Wipes and no spot removal. You need a pair of oblivion rings and some slagstorms to really get off the ground.
Feeling of Dread is a card I tested for awhile, it is very good in certain situations but flawed in most others. Under ideal conditions, Feeling of Dread stops a pair of Titans from rolling over your face for 2 turns. Essentially making it a fog effect. (Which not 2 pages ago I was just talking about with Gideon). For a deck that likes to go long, stalling them out isn't such a bad deal, but my issue with it is that it is ONLY a stall tactic.
The problem comes in when you have they have 3 or more creatures. Token decks just flat out laugh at you. You spend 4 mana on a fog for one turn, and possibly BV got a trigger? Thats not enough for me. I would rather do the 1-size-kills-all board wipe. Feeling of Dread is another good card, but it just doesn't do enough. It's a cheap flash back, so it makes good "ammo" for when you did stick a few BV's, but that is all it has going for him.
For your manabase, I am out and out siding with Jadencamelot. You need some duals. Glacial Fortress / Clifftop Retreat will go a long ways. Grotto is solid, but the fact that everything costs 1 more will bite you in the ass. Evolving wilds has two big strikes against.
1) On the turn you play it, it is basically a dual land that ALWAYS comes in tapped. Especally late game, Duals will almost always be live. Evolving wilds will 100% get you an active land NEXT turn.
2) Evolving Wilds locks you in to whatever color you chose. Consider a situation where you had 2 mountains, 1 plains and 1 evolving wild in play. In your hand is a mana leak and a Day of Judgment. Which land do you fish out, the one that brings counters alive or board wipes? You will need both eventually, but you can't know which. They could be wrong answer, no matter which way you go, then the other spell has a decent chance of staying dead in your hand while you draw the wrong colors kicking yourself. The correct answer is that your evolving wilds is actually Glacial Fortress is and you never had to make the choice.
So i have been playing around with burning vengeance for about two weeks now and have had a hair to test out Koth of the Hammer as a two of. He helps as a win con for extra mana for Devil's Play, does 4 damage a turn, untaps a R, and his emblem is yet another direct damage option.
sorry for short post right now, i will put my list up tomorrow. typing on my tablet is not that great.
The problem with Koth is that it's an aggro card, and we're not an aggro deck. See Who's the Beatdown? by Mike Flores for more information.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Is what I am running now. Unfortunately, all my LGS have been running drafts and sealed events for DKA so it hasn't actually seen competitive play yet. It has done several casual multiplayer games, but only a handful of those were against standard decks. Which thankfully it absolutely took control 100% of the time, I was very easily able to board wipe every time I wanted to. Counterspelled the player to my left, then flash back card draw to burn the creatures off the board for the player on my right. I kept both players off balance until I had enough to flashback devils play one and 4 BV triggers to kill the other at the same time. But again, non standard decks in a a multiplayer format. Anecdotal experience at best.
I have put Faithless Looting in to the deck, played with it, then put it right back on out. I want to like it, on paper it seems perfect, but every time I drew it I couldn't find anything in my hand I was comfortable ditching. There is a way to make this card work... but damned if I know what it is.
Delver of Secrets was a fairly poor card for me, but I think that is laregly because of my mana base. I have esnetally forfeited the early game with this deck. Most opening hands have a pair of duals that I just have to suck up and play taped. It happens more then I like, but this deck flourishes late game. A few Seachrome Coasts instead of my basics could go a long ways, but seeing as I only have Geistflame as a turn 1 play, I have not worried about it.
Anyways, Delver was dicey at best. I have had the most success with letting the opponent extend in to 2 (hopefully 3) creatures and board wiping them. This usually means I get beaten down to 8-9ish before I stabilize, but an early Delver (Albiet fliped) really didn't get his moneys worth. (Especially since i have no good way to get him BACK on to the field). Laying down a Titan after I already have the opponents in counter-whatever-they-just-top-deck-mode has proven a lot more effective.
Taking to heart the advice of siding in, creatures for game 2 I began testing Sun Titan. Who has proved to be pretty reliable, Even as a singleton. I was worried he wouldn't have enough targets to really make his worth, but when I start digging for him, go Forbidden Alchemy and get Sun Titan, O-Ring and 2 BV's its actually a pretty easy choice. He has turned in to a 2 for 1.
Which normally I am always careful with desperate ravings, casting BV and O-Ring at sub optimal times just so I can make sure they aren't thrown in the graveyard unnecessarily.
I am very board wipe happy however, I played 5 main board and my Snapcaster usually bring at least one back. (And subsequently dies) So no matter what at least 1 Snapcaster ends up down there. Daisy chaining a Sun Titan to a Snapcaster to a cheaper Geistflame has been a finisher twice now.
Sadly I do not own any Gideon's. I am still interested in to seeing how he plays. I pulled a Holo Helavault in a pre release, maybe I can con someone in to trading.
P.S. I also lack any Phantasmal Images, which for Thrun decks I know is a must. However since I am advocating Sun Titan, the idea of pulling off the triple titan Solar Flare trick does sound appealing.
Is what I am running now. Unfortunately, all my LGS have been running drafts and sealed events for DKA so it hasn't actually seen competitive play yet. It has done several casual multiplayer games, but only a handful of those were against standard decks. Which thankfully it absolutely took control 100% of the time, I was very easily able to board wipe every time I wanted to. Counterspelled the player to my left, then flash back card draw to burn the creatures off the board for the player on my right. I kept both players off balance until I had enough to flashback devils play one and 4 BV triggers to kill the other at the same time. But again, non standard decks in a a multiplayer format. Anecdotal experience at best.
I have put Faithless Looting in to the deck, played with it, then put it right back on out. I want to like it, on paper it seems perfect, but every time I drew it I couldn't find anything in my hand I was comfortable ditching. There is a way to make this card work... but damned if I know what it is.
Delver of Secrets was a fairly poor card for me, but I think that is laregly because of my mana base. I have esnetally forfeited the early game with this deck. Most opening hands have a pair of duals that I just have to suck up and play taped. It happens more then I like, but this deck flourishes late game. A few Seachrome Coasts instead of my basics could go a long ways, but seeing as I only have Geistflame as a turn 1 play, I have not worried about it.
Anyways, Delver was dicey at best. I have had the most success with letting the opponent extend in to 2 (hopefully 3) creatures and board wiping them. This usually means I get beaten down to 8-9ish before I stabilize, but an early Delver (Albiet fliped) really didn't get his moneys worth. (Especially since i have no good way to get him BACK on to the field). Laying down a Titan after I already have the opponents in counter-whatever-they-just-top-deck-mode has proven a lot more effective.
Taking to heart the advice of siding in, creatures for game 2 I began testing Sun Titan. Who has proved to be pretty reliable, Even as a singleton. I was worried he wouldn't have enough targets to really make his worth, but when I start digging for him, go Forbidden Alchemy and get Sun Titan, O-Ring and 2 BV's its actually a pretty easy choice. He has turned in to a 2 for 1.
Which normally I am always careful with desperate ravings, casting BV and O-Ring at sub optimal times just so I can make sure they aren't thrown in the graveyard unnecessarily.
I am very board wipe happy however, I played 5 main board and my Snapcaster usually bring at least one back. (And subsequently dies) So no matter what at least 1 Snapcaster ends up down there. Daisy chaining a Sun Titan to a Snapcaster to a cheaper Geistflame has been a finisher twice now.
Sadly I do not own any Gideon's. I am still interested in to seeing how he plays. I pulled a Holo Helavault in a pre release, maybe I can con someone in to trading.
P.S. I also lack any Phantasmal Images, which for Thrun decks I know is a must. However since I am advocating Sun Titan, the idea of pulling off the triple titan Solar Flare trick does sound appealing.
Your version is very counter-heavy, and draw-light. Do you ever have troubles hitting your land drops? 23, to me, just seems very wrong — I would be inclined to actually add a land (from 24), rather than cut one. Also 9 draw spells seems very unintuitive; I seem to win almost every game where I get enough draw. The deck, in my experience, lives and dies by its land drops and its draw spells, so running such a smaller number of each doesn't seem fantastic.
I think you should try out the following changes, temporarily, and see how it runs:
-2 Negate
-1 Dissipate
+1 Desperate Ravings
+1 Forbidden Alchemy
+1 Land
Just give it a go, and see how it feels after a couple of matches. There won't be much difference, but I'd say your consistency will improve.
EDIT: Were the Delvers maindeck or sideboard? Delver is going to be ineffective in the main because it is not meant for the aggro matchups. It's designed to beat control decks and to pressure Wolf Run, because it presents a clock that they boarded out all their answers to. Obviously Game 3 will be different again, but it should give you a significant advantage in Game 2. And, if you wanted, you could even board out the Delvers in Game 3, just to mess with them some more. (Note: you wouldn't do that against control; Delver is too good a threat)
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Edit: on the MTGO tournament I beat UB control twice (this deck is very good against control, especially pre-board as they don't have answers, just watch out for the Spellbombs and Dissipate to the Phoenixes), and won one and lost one to Delver - I mulliganed to 5 in one game I lost to Delver, and then mis-sideboarded and got beat by Invisible Stalker + too much equipment while holding Mental Missteps and Gut Shots.
Would it be a particularly terrible play to, for example, leave 4 mana untapped during your opponent's turn to threaten snapping back a mana leak, and then cast USZ for 1 on their end step, shuffling it back into your library? 4 mana for 1 card is definitely steep, but it isn't doing much for you sitting in your hand in the early game, and there's a good chance we'll run into it again with all the draw BV variants run. I feel like it's fair to outright trade it for another card if they don't play anything worth countering. The fact that it's an instant makes all the difference over Looting in my opinion, as I will rarely if ever play a draw spell on my turn, unless I'm flashing them back to burn my opponent out or if I want to prevent a DFC from flipping.
As an aside, I think it's interesting how looting was hailed as the card that was going to take BV to top tier status, and within a day of release, it's already been found practically unworthy of inclusion. It does nothing for card advantage and only fosters card quality, which in our deck is rarely an issue, since every card, including land, is potentially a threat already. We don't have the Roar of the Wurm-style flashback cards that we want to dump.
Yes, that is a terrible play. A card still a card, and a cantrip with no advantage whatsoever would be bad for one mana, let alone 4. I see no reason why you couldn't have waited a turn and cast it for x=2, or merely wait another 3 and have an amazing card on your hands. If it's turn 4, you're only a few turns away from making good use of it.
I agree; it's ironic. However, to be fair, I have been testing the card for about 3 weeks.
Why do we need it? While it would obviously help, there's nothing wrong with the deck's mana at the moment. By virtue of having 66% dual lands in your manabase, you are actually able to consistently get either :symu::symu: or :symr::symr: on turn 3, and :symw::symw: shortly after. You also run a few splash lands to get for Ancient Grudge, or for Forbidden Alchemy, or you can even Snapcaster them in a pinch.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
It's no City of Brass, but Shimmering Grotto as a 2-of can potentially smooth out some of the less dedicated splashes for us. Of course, it turns alchemy into an 8 mana FB, which is somewhat ridiculous, but this deck is in it for the long haul, so you'll either draw the duals you need or have plenty of mana to flash it back before the game ends. The mana base is probably the most important part of building this deck. It's the part that I keep tweaking, while most other things remain the same or very similar.
I should have clarified, I was talking in particular about the anti-synergy with Ravings you mentioned, where the threat of dumping USZ would cause you to make subpar plays if you had both in your hand. I suppose the play I mentioned would fall under that same category, heh.
And I too sleeved up proxies once it had been spoiled (since it was the first card spoiled, I had plenty of time to playtest it) and I discovered that I only ever wanted to see it in my opening hand. Topdecking it made me feel dirty, my current incarnation replaced all copies with Ravings and Alchemy, which is why I'm very interested in how USZ turns out as a draw engine for us.
what do you guys think of altar of the lost?
seems like it would really help in this area, and it also provides some ramp, too.
I'm well aware of what you were referring to. What I was meaning is that you should still cast Ravings as if you're happy to discard it — don't play Ravings around the fact you have a USZ you want to keep.
The only situation under which that's a defendable play is if you have exactly 4 mana left, you have no other flashback draw spells, and need to find a particular card as your only out, next turn. For example, if they have lethal damage on the board and you need a sweeper to live, then cantripping increases the probability you'll get what you need.
I think it's absolutely godawful and shouldn't be looked at twice (or thought about twice, hehe). But that's my opinion; go ahead and test it if you think it's warranted. I've learned my lesson after convincing everyone that Looting is an automatic playset and having egg on my face a week later.
If it costed less, or entered untapped, or could be used for spells with flashback at any point, then it might be playable. But as it is, it does too little, for too much mana, and comes in too late.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
It's just too little, too late. If it cost 2 or didn't come into play tapped or if the mana could be spent on spells not cast from a graveyard as well, it would be great. It would possibly be playable if it only provided 1 mana of any color for flashback spells instead of 2, as long as it cost 2 and didn't come into play tapped. Pristine Talisman is a good ramp artifact, primarily because you can tap it for mana the same turn you play it, meaning you can play it on turn 4 and still have mana open for mana leak. The life gain doesn't hurt either.
Haha, looks like jaden already said what I was gonna say.
Winning.
Pristine Talisman is pretty good. I just don't have the room, and Timely is better out of the board. It's definitely worth consideration in Grixis lists, though.
Updated list:
2 Devil's Play
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Think Twice
3 Desperate Ravings
2 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Whipflare
2 Slagstorm
2 Day of Judgment
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Clifftop Retreat
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Copperline Gorge
2 Shimmering Grotto
4 Island
5 Mountain
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Slagstorm
2 Dissipate
1 Geistflame
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
2 Devil's Play
3 Desperate Ravings
3 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Think Twice
1 Rolling Temblor
2 Day of Judgment
2 Whipflare
4 Geistflame
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Dissipate
4 Mana Leak
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Clifftop Retreat
5 Island
5 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Rootbound Crag
2 Drowned Catacomb
1 Shimmering Grotto
1 Day of Judgment
1 Whipflare
2 Negate
1 Dissipate
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Secrets of the Dead
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Timely Reinforcements
The temblor should really be a slagstorm, but I don't have any presently. The actual spells seem to be about what everyone else is running give or take a few, so I guess I'd like feedback primarily on the mana base, as that seems to be what makes or breaks this deck.
Nice, well-rounded list (minus Slagstorms obviously). I personally prefer Oblivion Rings in the main, but in the board is fine too.
Playing basic Plains probably isn't a good idea. I'd try to replace them with Seachrome Coasts. Don't worry about the number of basics, I've been running with 8-10 for ages and it's been fine for me. Other than that, the mana looks good.
EDIT: Actually, I'd probably play the third Whipflare main or a third Day of Judgment over the Rolling Temblor. With Delver and Lingering Souls in the metagame, you don't want your sweeper to miss those, and Tempered Steel is far less popular than either of those decks. You could replace the fourth Whipflare in the side with either a Rolling Temblor or a Day of Judgment.
Also, you're missing Phantasmal Images. Even if you can only get Phyrexian Metamorph, copy effects are literally the only way to deal with Thrun, and can be good against Geist of Saint Traft too.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
to clarify, i was thinking of running 1 MAYBE 2 of these. not going huge into it.
i see what you guys are saying, though. theres probably better things that can be used to fill these slots.
Secrets can be good in certain situations. However, unless you're already running 12 draw spells and still want more, I'd rather play an extra Ravings/USZ/Alchemy. That's just my opinion, however, and I haven't got around to retesting Secrets.
What's wrong with running 2 copies of USZ? It's an exceptionally small probability that you actually draw two until much later in the game, at which point you can actually make full use of it anyway.
And yes, Jace's Ingenuity would be amazing in this deck. But a good feature of USZ is its scaleability, so even when you're flooded lategame you can come back very quickly. It's almost a blessing that we don't have to choose between them.
And of course, there's no reason to cast USZ below x=3. At six mana it's okay, but I wouldn't do it unless you're either stuck on lands or you have a now-or-never opportunity against Solar Flare.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Here is my list:
4x Faithless Looting
4x Desperate Ravings
1x Forbidden Alchemy
2x Geistflame
4x Feeling of Dread (This card is a champ, test it if you haven't, you will not be disappointed)
4x Mana Leak
2x Day of Judgement
4x Secrets of the Dead
3x Shimmering Grotto (I have debated this one time and time again. It does what it needs to, it comes in untapped and fixes mana for the deck which is mainly made up of cheap spells so paying 3 instead of two for desperate ravings or think twice is not ridiculous in my opinion.)
4x Evolving Wilds
4x Island
3x Plains
4x Mountain
It's still one, maybe two, slots that are almost completely wasted.
If you want the slot for ramp, play Pristine Talisman. If you want the slot for manafixing, play more Desperate Ravings and a better manabase.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Why don't you like Geistflame? It's been nothing short of amazing for me.
I'll post a more in-depth response later, but basically the problem with Secrets is that you're adding card draw to your card draw. I'll illustrate it this way: If you drop a BV and flash back two spells, you instantly get a Flame Javelin, that can be split. However, if you drop a Secrets and flash back two spells, you've got a Divination. But what that means is that you need yet more spells to flash back before Secrets actually gives you a tangible advantage, because the flashback ability already essentially reads "draw a card".
Yeah, I did a bad job of explaining it. See if you can find one of my really long arguments against it from the early pages of this thread.
And with Shimmering Grotto, you're not going to be using it for Ravings or Think Twice — you'll be using it for Dissipate, Snapcaster Mage, Slagstorm, Day of Judgment and Forbidden Alchemy's flashback. Now paying one extra starts to become a problem.
Your manabase really needs dual lands: take the linked decklist from my sig and start from there.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
For the love of all that is sacred in this world, please don't.
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
With a Secrets on the board, Faithless Looting is significantly better. With 2 on the board, it's like playing 2 Ravings but without the random factor. So if you're going to run one, it's definitely a good idea to run the other.
Edit: That said, at the risk of sounding like I want all decks to look like mine, I like my Secrets of the Dead in the board so that I can bring them in against control decks, which are actually on the decline it seems, so much so that my secrets my end up being replaced by Phantasmal Image to take care of Thrun, the one card that can bypass my counters and even survive DoJ if mana is left open for regeneration. Burning Vengeance already has an advantage over control, in that we are a control deck that tacks a shock onto our draw. Running a playset of Secrets seems like overkill in any case. I'd try either 2 maindeck and one in the side, or a singleton main and 2 in the side and see how it works for you.
It might just be me, but it looks like you aren't running enough counters or removal. Burning Vengeance is first and foremost a control deck, so you want to be able to keep opponent's threats off the board, either by nuking them, or preventing them from getting there in the first place. The delvers will probably just eat removal before they get the chance to swing more than a couple times, as most decks run some measure of removal in their main 60. If you want them, put them in the board and bring them in game 2, after they're boarded out all their wasted removal.
I tried feeling of dread. I enjoyed it, it's cheap and it can keep your health total from moving for a couple turns. However, in most cases I feel like it would have been more beneficial to just play a board sweeper or have countered the creature in the first place. It stalls for a couple turns, which can be helpful if you're hoping to draw into a devil's play, but you aren't running devil's play, which begs the question: how do you usually win?
Card draw by itself is 100% useless. If you cast think twice, desperate ravings, forbidden alchemy or any other card draw and all it got you was more ways to draw cards, then it was a wasted mana and a wasted spell. It did not improve your board position and it did not get you any closer to killing your opponent. The only thing it did was thing your deck making your next card draw slightly more effective. On the condition you actually get to cast it.
Burning Vengeance is a fantastic enchant since it fixes that inherit problem. You flash back your think twice to burn your opponent off the field, the fact that you got a card to replace it is really just a bonus.
Secrets of the Dead just keeps the problem going. Especially when it is stacked in large numbers. You have 17 spells that do card draw, and only 16 actual spells. Sure you can burn through your deck to find answers, but what happens when your deck has run out of answers and just has ways to draw more land?
It's not that Secrets of the Dead is a bad card, it just doesn't do enough for us to warrant its spot. Your deck only has 2 Board Wipes and no spot removal. You need a pair of oblivion rings and some slagstorms to really get off the ground.
Feeling of Dread is a card I tested for awhile, it is very good in certain situations but flawed in most others. Under ideal conditions, Feeling of Dread stops a pair of Titans from rolling over your face for 2 turns. Essentially making it a fog effect. (Which not 2 pages ago I was just talking about with Gideon). For a deck that likes to go long, stalling them out isn't such a bad deal, but my issue with it is that it is ONLY a stall tactic.
The problem comes in when you have they have 3 or more creatures. Token decks just flat out laugh at you. You spend 4 mana on a fog for one turn, and possibly BV got a trigger? Thats not enough for me. I would rather do the 1-size-kills-all board wipe. Feeling of Dread is another good card, but it just doesn't do enough. It's a cheap flash back, so it makes good "ammo" for when you did stick a few BV's, but that is all it has going for him.
For your manabase, I am out and out siding with Jadencamelot. You need some duals. Glacial Fortress / Clifftop Retreat will go a long ways. Grotto is solid, but the fact that everything costs 1 more will bite you in the ass. Evolving wilds has two big strikes against.
1) On the turn you play it, it is basically a dual land that ALWAYS comes in tapped. Especally late game, Duals will almost always be live. Evolving wilds will 100% get you an active land NEXT turn.
2) Evolving Wilds locks you in to whatever color you chose. Consider a situation where you had 2 mountains, 1 plains and 1 evolving wild in play. In your hand is a mana leak and a Day of Judgment. Which land do you fish out, the one that brings counters alive or board wipes? You will need both eventually, but you can't know which. They could be wrong answer, no matter which way you go, then the other spell has a decent chance of staying dead in your hand while you draw the wrong colors kicking yourself. The correct answer is that your evolving wilds is actually Glacial Fortress is and you never had to make the choice.
Okay, 1 toughness creatures that will rarely attack but are still high priority targets
GO!
Birds of Paradise.
Blade Splicer.
Goblin Fireslinger.
Grim Lavamancer.
Spikeshot Elder.
Avacyn’s Pilgrim.
All of which have homes in Standard decks, all of which should be burned off the field immediately and all of which can very easily play around never attack yet STILL win the match.
sorry for short post right now, i will put my list up tomorrow. typing on my tablet is not that great.
Unfortunately, Koth would force us to play way more basic mountains than we should. Not good.
Pauper - 450
EDH
B Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
Not only this, but Burning Oil on turn 2 is our Mana Leak turn, as well as our Ravings/Think Twice turn. Geistflame allows you to take the initiative and out-tempo the tempo deck, just by going EOT Geistflame your Delver, untap and hold Leak. This play works against almost every archetype, notably UW Humans (Champion of the Parish/Gideon's Lawkeeper), RDW (Stromkirk/Lavamancer/etc.), Tempered Steel (Signal Pest, Vault Skirge, etc.), and any deck playing manadorks.
Also, Burning Oil is completely dead against Control and Wolf Run, while Geistflame is at the very least a Shock.
EDIT: Also Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is going to see a fair bit of play, and once they see Burning Oil they won't be attacking with her while you hold up
twothree mana. Geistflame is a nice and easy answer that doesn't set you back a turn.What's your current list look like?
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
3 Clifftop Retreat
6 Island
6 Mountain
2 Shimmering Grotto
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Glacial Fortress
Enchantments(6)
4 Burning Vengeance
2 Oblivion Ring
Creatures(3)
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Mana Leak
3 Dissipate
2 Negate
Draw(9)
4 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Desperate Ravings
Other Spells(10)
3 Day of Judgment
2 Slagstorm
2 Devil's Play
3 Geistflame
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Geistflame
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slagstorm
2 Spellskite
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sun Titan
Is what I am running now. Unfortunately, all my LGS have been running drafts and sealed events for DKA so it hasn't actually seen competitive play yet. It has done several casual multiplayer games, but only a handful of those were against standard decks. Which thankfully it absolutely took control 100% of the time, I was very easily able to board wipe every time I wanted to. Counterspelled the player to my left, then flash back card draw to burn the creatures off the board for the player on my right. I kept both players off balance until I had enough to flashback devils play one and 4 BV triggers to kill the other at the same time. But again, non standard decks in a a multiplayer format. Anecdotal experience at best.
I have put Faithless Looting in to the deck, played with it, then put it right back on out. I want to like it, on paper it seems perfect, but every time I drew it I couldn't find anything in my hand I was comfortable ditching. There is a way to make this card work... but damned if I know what it is.
Delver of Secrets was a fairly poor card for me, but I think that is laregly because of my mana base. I have esnetally forfeited the early game with this deck. Most opening hands have a pair of duals that I just have to suck up and play taped. It happens more then I like, but this deck flourishes late game. A few Seachrome Coasts instead of my basics could go a long ways, but seeing as I only have Geistflame as a turn 1 play, I have not worried about it.
Anyways, Delver was dicey at best. I have had the most success with letting the opponent extend in to 2 (hopefully 3) creatures and board wiping them. This usually means I get beaten down to 8-9ish before I stabilize, but an early Delver (Albiet fliped) really didn't get his moneys worth. (Especially since i have no good way to get him BACK on to the field). Laying down a Titan after I already have the opponents in counter-whatever-they-just-top-deck-mode has proven a lot more effective.
Taking to heart the advice of siding in, creatures for game 2 I began testing Sun Titan. Who has proved to be pretty reliable, Even as a singleton. I was worried he wouldn't have enough targets to really make his worth, but when I start digging for him, go Forbidden Alchemy and get Sun Titan, O-Ring and 2 BV's its actually a pretty easy choice. He has turned in to a 2 for 1.
Which normally I am always careful with desperate ravings, casting BV and O-Ring at sub optimal times just so I can make sure they aren't thrown in the graveyard unnecessarily.
I am very board wipe happy however, I played 5 main board and my Snapcaster usually bring at least one back. (And subsequently dies) So no matter what at least 1 Snapcaster ends up down there. Daisy chaining a Sun Titan to a Snapcaster to a cheaper Geistflame has been a finisher twice now.
Sadly I do not own any Gideon's. I am still interested in to seeing how he plays. I pulled a Holo Helavault in a pre release, maybe I can con someone in to trading.
P.S. I also lack any Phantasmal Images, which for Thrun decks I know is a must. However since I am advocating Sun Titan, the idea of pulling off the triple titan Solar Flare trick does sound appealing.
I think you should try out the following changes, temporarily, and see how it runs:
-2 Negate
-1 Dissipate
+1 Desperate Ravings
+1 Forbidden Alchemy
+1 Land
Just give it a go, and see how it feels after a couple of matches. There won't be much difference, but I'd say your consistency will improve.
EDIT: Were the Delvers maindeck or sideboard? Delver is going to be ineffective in the main because it is not meant for the aggro matchups. It's designed to beat control decks and to pressure Wolf Run, because it presents a clock that they boarded out all their answers to. Obviously Game 3 will be different again, but it should give you a significant advantage in Game 2. And, if you wanted, you could even board out the Delvers in Game 3, just to mess with them some more. (Note: you wouldn't do that against control; Delver is too good a threat)
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/3372793
3 Hinterland Harbor
9 Island
4 Mountain
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Swamp
23 lands
3 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Snapcaster Mage
7 creatures
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Burning Vengeance
1 Devil's Play
4 Dissipate
1 Doom Blade
1 Druidic Satchel
3 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Geistflame
2 Gut Shot
4 Mana Leak
1 Naturalize
1 Negate
3 Ponder
1 Runechanter's Pike
4 Think Twice
30 other spells
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Druidic Satchel
2 Flashfreeze
1 Go for the Throat
1 Gut Shot
2 Mental Misstep
1 Naturalize
1 Sever the Bloodline
2 Slagstorm
2 Whipflare
15 sideboard cards
The synergy with Chandra's Phoenix will only get better with Faithless Looting .
I liked a suggestion of Feeling of Dread and I'd also love to fit Ray of Revelation, but I don't know how I'd manage the manabase.
Edit: on the MTGO tournament I beat UB control twice (this deck is very good against control, especially pre-board as they don't have answers, just watch out for the Spellbombs and Dissipate to the Phoenixes), and won one and lost one to Delver - I mulliganed to 5 in one game I lost to Delver, and then mis-sideboarded and got beat by Invisible Stalker + too much equipment while holding Mental Missteps and Gut Shots.