As I understand it, it's not incorrect - in plain language - to say that two cards with synergy form a "combo". But, when I'm discussing MTG with experienced players, the term has mostly been reserved to stuff that either wins the game immediately, or provides such an overwhelming edge that your opponent can't reasonably hope to recover before you deliver the coup de grace.
If we're discussing a combo deck, I think it's fair to say we should assume that is built around that kind of gameplan. After all, I'm pretty sure just about any successful deck probably will have some degree of synergy, and to mull over "how much synergy" is "enough" for it to be called a "combo" really just seems like a waste of time, due to subjectivity.
So, I think it makes sense to refer to combo as a win-condition term, and assume everyone else will take it that way, too.
A combo deck is a deck that wins by doing a combo. Non combo decks can have combos in them.
Exarch twin was a combo deck.
Valakut had combo in it, but it wasn't a combo deck.
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Originally Posted by Massive Marc
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
A combo deck is a deck that wins by doing a combo. Non combo decks can have combos in them.
Exarch twin was a combo deck.
Valakut had combo in it, but it wasn't a combo deck.
While I personally agree w/ you, for some players, especially newer players, it can be open to interpretation. They have not see the combo decks of the past like UR Storm, Heartbeat of Spring, Dragonstorm, TPS, Donate/Illusions, etc. and the many rest are slipping my mind.
As WoTC leans away from combo in Standard, players are looking for any kind of "synergy" to call a "combo" and players like me are forgetting what combo is honestly. The last combo I liked to play was Cascade Swans and to be honest, the deck was a bit unfair. But that's okay; the same can be said about Jund, Mythic, Faeries, Ravager, and many other decks in older metagames.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Really, what it is is that combo gets hated out by aggro if it can't be assembled in a couple of turns. Exarch Twin was an accident (WotC admitted that), and they cannot make combos that are too fast or too good, because, if they do, then everyone gets bored out of their minds playing this game.
The only combo I know that can *kind of* compete against aggro is Myr Combo because it is creature based and has resiliency built in. But even then it's not very good or consistent. Might be a while before we see a decent combo deck.
Combo: 2 Myr Galvanizer + Palladium Myr/2 other Myr
The only combo I know that can *kind of* compete against aggro is Myr Combo because it is creature based and has resiliency built in. But even then it's not very good or consistent. Might be a while before we see a decent combo deck.
Combo: 2 Myr Galvanizer + Palladium Myr/2 other Myr
Myr Genesis Wave? Could work, or get countered by mana leak. Would be pretty funny though... gettin so many permanents.
To all of those saying combos have to instantly win you the game, why then was Pyromancer's Ascension generally agreed to be a combo deck during its time in standard?
The deck did not win immediately, hell it didn't even always win once it went off. A combo in my mind is more like an interaction between multiple specific cards that is either powerful or consistent enough to base a deck around. Under this definition I think Valakut would be labeled combo, which in my mind it sort of was, at least as much as Pyromancer's Ascension, whereas stringing together lords in a zombie deck or something would not be.
I'm not seeing much in the way of combo decks as compared to past standards. Certinally nothing as effective as exarch/twin or pyromancers ascension. Or even mindcrank/ascension....
I really feel this meta is missing a combo deck.
Wizards has actually been pushing heavily lately for strategies that they find promote a more stable format and an environment that is more fun to play in. Because of this, they're making a strong effort to prevent certain things from being too powerful (or even tier 1 available for that matter).
1. Combo:
First, lets consider different definitions of combo: a. Defined by gameplan: "I hope to resolve Items x and y (sometimes more) together. If I can, I should be able to win regardless of the previous board position." b. Defined by process: "I work to dig/manipulate my draws so that I can play 1 or more items that result in an explosive endgame that can win regardless of the previous board position." c. Defined by style of play: A deck that is non-interactive and uses a combination of cards to create an endgame that can win regardless of the previous board position.
Now, these are how I would define combo. I think these are all very accurate in describing what makes a deck a combo deck. They also all focus only on what would be a strictly combo deck and not on a deck that may include a combo as a secondary finisher. All of the definitions we could consider have 2 things in common though: 1. They are non-interactive, 2. They ignore board position. These things put pure combo in a category that wizards would consider not fun. Wizards wants to see us interacting with our opponents, and they want to see board position matter. Games without this tend to lead to games that are not fun for at least one of the players. Also, while winning with a combo can be fun for a while, it does get old even for the person playing it. This makes it a bad idea for Wizards to have combos strong enough to be the focal point for a deck in a format for any extended period of time.
Wizards does like strong interactions and strong engines for decks though, so mistakes are possible. Mostly I think their goal is to provide enough that the people who enjoy finding/building combos can still do so, while not letting that kind of strategy get out of hand. Combos can also still be successful. A perfect example is Heartless Summoning. I've been running it and tuning it for a while now with great results. For me the combo is secondary though. If I get the combo, that's great, but I can and will more often win without it.
2. Control
First, lets consider how we define contol. Remember I'm talking about control decks now and not fish decks.
Definition by gameplan: "I will disrupt my opponent's gameplan long enough to resolve an unstoppable threat and win in a few turns."
The problem here is much the same as above. No one likes seeing their deck shut down completely. We are willing to accept a certain amount of disruption in the course of a game, but for the most part, no one likes to play against control. Control really isn't the most fun to play either though, so I can understand why Wizards would want to weaken this a bit. The other problem with control as an archetype though is that it puts you on a defensive strategy for the majority of the game. No war is ever won defensively. Because of this, Fish decks will almost always take the place of control anyways. They offer better diversity and stronger matchups almost all around the board. They're also more flexible and will operate more effectively in a diverse metagame where less is known about what your opponents are playing. Wizards really didn't have to do much to take control out of the picture, it was generally stuck in tier 2 due to it's tempo based counterparts already anyways.
The only combo I know that can *kind of* compete against aggro is Myr Combo because it is creature based and has resiliency built in. But even then it's not very good or consistent. Might be a while before we see a decent combo deck.
Combo: 2 Myr Galvanizer + Palladium Myr/2 other Myr
To all of those saying combos have to instantly win you the game, why then was Pyromancer's Ascension generally agreed to be a combo deck during its time in standard?
The deck did not win immediately, hell it didn't even always win once it went off. A combo in my mind is more like an interaction between multiple specific cards that is either powerful or consistent enough to base a deck around. Under this definition I think Valakut would be labeled combo, which in my mind it sort of was, at least as much as Pyromancer's Ascension, whereas stringing together lords in a zombie deck or something would not be.
P.A. was a combo deck. When it went off, they usually did win.
Its just like ANT in Legacy. That deck doesnt always win you the game when you go off, sometimes you lose from too much damage, but its still a combo deck. Drawing multiple cards and increasing a Storm count is the same as recuring lightning bolts with P.A.
Valakult in Standard (As opposed to Scapeshift Extended Version) was very similar to a combo deck, but more a Synergistic deck with a bit of a Back up plan of beating face with Titans. P.A is more 'all in'.
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Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
The two problems combo decks are facing is speed and resilience. Combo decks that require more than three lands in order to go off aren't going to meet much success. After that they end up playing control with a combo finish. On top of this, they still need to find combo pieces.
The other issue is they are too disruptable. When aggro decks can reasonably interact without sideboarding, then the combo deck is too disruptable. For instance, a combo deck that dies to all common creature removal is going to fail hard.
So what happens when a combo deck gets both of these. We get a tier one deck that can only be realistically beat by tier 1.5+ control. Wizards doesn't want this because New players are drawn to aggro, and aggro traditionally folds to combo before sideboarding, and New players aren't very good at that. Heck, old players aren't good at that. This makes many feel powerless to stop the combo player.
So wizards nerfed it. The end. Just play ramp, as that's the closest thing to combo you can realistically win with. The triangle has been broken because it wasn't fun. Instead of combo control aggro, we have ramp tempo aggro. Whatever, that is what eternal formats are for. High Tide will never get boring.
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Um my blue/black Myr deck has done pretty well.
pretty much i just start with a palladium myr and 2 galvanizers and create an infinite mana loop. From there i use the loop to blue sun zenith for alot. I then play Progenitor Myr and create and equip him with swiftfoot boots and create an infinite myr token loop. From there I can do one of a few things.
Depending on how the game went before that I can use Tezzeret's ult and cause infinite damage, I can use Myr Battlesphere and then put swiftboot's on him and swing. Using his ability, tap my infinite myr and do infinite damage directly.
Also, if i can't do my infinite token loop I can hit you with Exsanguinate for infinite damage as well.
Oh and it is very easy for me to protect my myrs with things like Vapor Snag, Cancel, Mana leak, and turn aside. Additionally, with Shimmer Myr I can play all the pieces at the end of your turn.
As for the mana cost to get it starts its not that hard also, Since my are mostly mana sources to start with. Throw in 4 Mox Opals and a Myr Resevoir and your good to go.
Also, with creatures like Riddlesmith and consecrated sphinx and blue uon zenith, card draw is easy. Also With Kuldotha Forgemaster, Myr Turbine, Call of the Kindred, Shape Anew, and Tezzeret, it is easy to get the pieces I need to kick off the combo.
So you can still combo... just requires some finagling
I tried making a combo deck yesterday, I think it's too slow though since the combo doesn't win the game outright, it merely starts giving you enormous board position starting with turn 5. Then uses that to stall into a kill card.
There's my decklist for anyone interested, it's still a work in progress. Molten-Tail Masticore and Gnaw to the Bone need to find their way into the deck too, that would probably improve the deck a bit giving some defense against aggro and more resiliency to the welders, but that's for another thread.
I don't expect it to win any tournaments or anything, but if it could get to the point that it's capable of winning an FNM that would be kind of cool.
It all depends on what you call combo, is it a I win your dead thing like Splinter Twin or is it cards that are just super synergy via entombreanimate? There are a few fun combos running around in standard at the moment, a cheap one I have brought to fnm is phyrexian metamorphleonin relic-warder and suture priest. I also understand there is a Grimgrin combo running around but have yet to see it, if you consider those reanimation decks "combo" then they are running around all over the place
I'd hardly say that combo isn't fun. It just takes a fair amount of experience to interact with it, which makes it look unbeatable to newer players, and alienating new players is hardly a sound business strategy. I don't blame wizards for nerfing combo, and as long as they don't touch eternal formats It's fine by me if they want to try screwing with standard. The reason I play standard is because it is always different. I feel they are doing well here, and this will probably be the reason Modern succeeds.
Combo is dead in standard, and that will be good in the long term because it means a larger player base. That larger player base will get experience, and get interested in the combo decks of old, and try modern, and a new generation of combo players will be there. Combo has to dye in standard so it can safely exist elsewhere.
Again, if you really enjoy combo, ramp plays very similar to older style combo decks. Do action A so much so quickly, that action B is game winning. Feels like a combo deck which is good enough for a lot of people. If you just liked the raw speed of combo, blitz aggro is close. If you want to play storm it is pretty cheap to build in modern, and budget high tide is decent in legacy.
Tldr; The killing of combo is good because it means more players, which means more people who play eternal which means combo never really dies, just moves to place that can handle it.
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Combo isn't fun. Have you ever played Type 1? It's as non interactive as it gets. I would have been really proud if I had discovered a game breaking combo, but in this day and age, with netdecking rampant, you don't get to discover anything; someone else has already done it for you.
Now think how boring it is to play an unbeatable combo deck with your friends. You play it once or twice and you win. The opponent has no answer. Would you play it again? You'd be as bored as he is.
Now think if an all winning combo deck hits tournaments. We would have two decks: the combo deck and decks designed to beat the combo deck. Not very interesting, is it?
Combos are nice as a novelty: "Look what I've discovered". But playing it more than once, or far worse being dominant in competitive play is bad for the game.
But kudos to anyone who discovers a sick combo, in a combo hating environment, and wins a tournament with it. But it will be boring as hell afterwards.
I don't know about you but I think combo is fun to play with/against. And I think it is more interactive than Aggro is in the current standard. Hell, splinter twin was more interactive with my U/B control than RDW/Goblins.
I don't know about you but I think combo is fun to play with/against. And I think it is more interactive than Aggro is in the current standard. Hell, splinter twin was more interactive with my U/B control than RDW/Goblins.
Couldn't agree with Morimacil's post more.
Agreed.
But his post and the people who agree with him are the reason that Wizards has nerfed it. What people don't realize is that while degenerate Combo decks are bad, degenerate Aggro decks or degenerate Control decks are just as bad.
Caw Blade was bad. Is it combo? So then it's okay? Is Faeries bad? Jund? The list goes on. Although I don't consider any of these decks to be degenerate and didn't have problems with any of these (except maybe Jund for a while), these decks are just as "unfun" for a new player to play against. Who's to say that a new player would rather be tapped out every upkeep by Mistbind Cliques rather than lose to lands being discarded on 1 turn by Seismic Assault with Swans of Brynn Argoll in play?
Personally I miss Combo so much that all of my EDH decks have them. It is to the point that people have to gang up on me or lose to some "unfun" combo. I really need to make a non combo EDH deck.
Also yes, I've played Type 1. It was my top choice for many years. Only since Ravnica have I really started to get into Standard. I don't see it as boring at all, although I really do personally dislike Prison decks (I don't know if they still have those). Nothing sucks more than losing to a Goblin Welder over the course of 15 turns or so (with Barbarian Ring) when you can't do anything.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
There's a new combo from DKA, Knowledge Pool+Curse of Exhaustion. It stops your opponent from casting spells from their hand. Also, Counterlash has combo potential with a plan B of Quicksilver Amulet. You can counter your own Snapcaster or Memnite to get a Blightsteel into play, if they refuse to play creatures.
Another combo might be early reanimation of Vorinclex and maybe a Chancellor of the Annex to lock them down so much they can never recover.
Blightsteel/Shape Anew is great if they don't have ancient grudge. You can protect the colossus from O-ring etc just fine, but if they grudge your target artifact it kinda sucks. I played it for about a month, got bored, because it was " do they have ancient grudge ".dec.
Solar Flare image cascade (Unburial Rites into Sun Titan into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Liliana sacrifice your blocker, 30 damage on board) could be considered combo, I think. Anything involving reanimating a win con is pretty combo-y.
If there was like Presence of Grond for Midnight Guard that'd be fine because you can see it coming and answer it normally at sorcery speed. If they're running Urubrask or something, then that's a three card combo, and if you want to curve into that they'll see it coming.
Heartless Rites combo is around and is quite potent. It's quite resilient because its plan B is kill you with cheap titans and wurmcoils, but if you misstep he might just go Havengul Lich + Priest of Urbrask + Summoning + Perilous Myr or Devils Play to win.
A lot have pointed out the limited card pool for combo, and I agree totally. Lets say that in AVR, Avacyn turns out to be a seriously controlly card, like Iona, Shield of Emeria, then Unburial Rites into her would be a new combo.
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Standard: UB UB control (bad, but at least I crush control) UWR tempo.
Modern: BUG teachings UGW Cloudstone Value
EDH: UBR Thraximundar UBW Sharuum, the Hegemon (fair deck, I swear) UB Dralnu, Lich Lord BG Savra, Queen of the Golgari RUG Intet, the Dreamer
There are three primary combo deck types. One exploits a loop like splinter twin. The other exploits an engine like Pyromancer ascension. The last uses one mechanic to make another mechanic a lot better than it should have been, such as reanimator.
Out of those, only one is stupid and boring. Unfortunately that's the one that is primarily thought of when we think of combo. Engine based combos are among the most complicated decks to correctly pilot, and the most rewarding. They are not linear in any way. Pyromancer ascension is actually pretty tame compared to other engine based combos such as Solidarity and Eggs.
But stupid crap like splinter twin gets all the glory.
Combo AND control have been heavily nerfed in recent years. The reasoning is simple. Both require a level of experience to comfortably interact with, which new players don't have. The new player then feels powerless and quits before they ever had a chance to learn how to deal with those kind of decks.
Basically, wizards wants standard to be a place for players to get comfortable with the game, and still have offerings for experienced players. I think it is great, but I'm overly optimistic about most things, so take what I've said with a grain of sour.
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There's a new combo from DKA, Knowledge Pool+Curse of Exhaustion. It stops your opponent from casting spells from their hand. Also, Counterlash has combo potential with a plan B of Quicksilver Amulet. You can counter your own Snapcaster or Memnite to get a Blightsteel into play, if they refuse to play creatures.
Another combo might be early reanimation of Vorinclex and maybe a Chancellor of the Annex to lock them down so much they can never recover.
Blightsteel/Shape Anew is great if they don't have ancient grudge. You can protect the colossus from O-ring etc just fine, but if they grudge your target artifact it kinda sucks. I played it for about a month, got bored, because it was " do they have ancient grudge ".dec.
Solar Flare image cascade (Unburial Rites into Sun Titan into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Liliana sacrifice your blocker, 30 damage on board) could be considered combo, I think. Anything involving reanimating a win con is pretty combo-y.
If there was like Presence of Grond for Midnight Guard that'd be fine because you can see it coming and answer it normally at sorcery speed. If they're running Urubrask or something, then that's a three card combo, and if you want to curve into that they'll see it coming.
Heartless Rites combo is around and is quite potent. It's quite resilient because its plan B is kill you with cheap titans and wurmcoils, but if you misstep he might just go Havengul Lich + Priest of Urbrask + Summoning + Perilous Myr or Devils Play to win.
A lot have pointed out the limited card pool for combo, and I agree totally. Lets say that in AVR, Avacyn turns out to be a seriously controlly card, like Iona, Shield of Emeria, then Unburial Rites into her would be a new combo.
I think heartless is how wizards wants combo at this point. Its not dead, but you can't run just the combo and hope to win. Heartless has multiple game plans, and one of them is a combo. This seems like a good place for combo.
I'm mostly pissed that tier 1 pyromancer ascension-esque decks aren't around. By way of decks that win with clever play and spells, that aren't just control.
The fact that the one and only tier one game plan boils down to beating faces with creatures is getting on my nerves.
Ps. If this kind of gameplay is scaring off new players, this game needs better new players.
Combo requires a critical mass of cards in order to function. When sets rotate out, the card pool gets smaller and combo less likely/less powerful/less consistent. Just before rotation (Summer-October) when all 3 sets of a block are in and the new core set is legal but the previous one has not rotated, there are enough cards to put together decent combos. This has happened every year for the past 3 years now. If they printed functioning combos in the first block of a new set, it would be nothing but combo for the next year because combo tends to get better over time, not worse. Unless they printed specific hate for that combo later.
Or you could play Modern/Legacy/Vintage and play combo whenever you want.
I can think of one combo in stadard. It can go off as early as turn 2, but it's one of the most fragile combos in standard.
T1: Reveal Chancellor of the Tangle from opening hand; add G to your mana pool. Play mountain, tap, play Immolating Souleater.
T2: Island. Play Assault Strobe on souleater. Play Artful Dodge on souleater. Activate pump ability 9 times, going to 2 life. Swing with 10/1 unblockable for game.
It's very easily stopped by something as dumb as Shock or even Gut Shot, but it's still very fast. It's really the only semi-reliable t2/3 win in standard. I'll try this at a local FNM sometime
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If we're discussing a combo deck, I think it's fair to say we should assume that is built around that kind of gameplan. After all, I'm pretty sure just about any successful deck probably will have some degree of synergy, and to mull over "how much synergy" is "enough" for it to be called a "combo" really just seems like a waste of time, due to subjectivity.
So, I think it makes sense to refer to combo as a win-condition term, and assume everyone else will take it that way, too.
A combo deck is a deck that wins by doing a combo. Non combo decks can have combos in them.
Exarch twin was a combo deck.
Valakut had combo in it, but it wasn't a combo deck.
You know back in the old days, when there wasn't EDH, these "griefer" cards in decks were the norm. If you played a Winter Orb when you're opponents were tapped out, it was a good play. Now, you get people tell you they wanna punch you ? It's really sad how carebare this format is, to the point that some loser has to rip up your cards.
While I personally agree w/ you, for some players, especially newer players, it can be open to interpretation. They have not see the combo decks of the past like UR Storm, Heartbeat of Spring, Dragonstorm, TPS, Donate/Illusions, etc. and the many rest are slipping my mind.
As WoTC leans away from combo in Standard, players are looking for any kind of "synergy" to call a "combo" and players like me are forgetting what combo is honestly. The last combo I liked to play was Cascade Swans and to be honest, the deck was a bit unfair. But that's okay; the same can be said about Jund, Mythic, Faeries, Ravager, and many other decks in older metagames.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Combo: 2 Myr Galvanizer + Palladium Myr/2 other Myr
Myr Genesis Wave? Could work, or get countered by mana leak. Would be pretty funny though... gettin so many permanents.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
The deck did not win immediately, hell it didn't even always win once it went off. A combo in my mind is more like an interaction between multiple specific cards that is either powerful or consistent enough to base a deck around. Under this definition I think Valakut would be labeled combo, which in my mind it sort of was, at least as much as Pyromancer's Ascension, whereas stringing together lords in a zombie deck or something would not be.
My EDH Decks!
BUGDamia, Combo-Control QueenBUG
RGWort, the RampmotherRG
WWWKemba, Voltron ExtraordinaireWWW
UBDralnu, Pure ControlUB
URHail to the DracogeniusUR
Wizards has actually been pushing heavily lately for strategies that they find promote a more stable format and an environment that is more fun to play in. Because of this, they're making a strong effort to prevent certain things from being too powerful (or even tier 1 available for that matter).
1. Combo:
First, lets consider different definitions of combo:
a. Defined by gameplan: "I hope to resolve Items x and y (sometimes more) together. If I can, I should be able to win regardless of the previous board position."
b. Defined by process: "I work to dig/manipulate my draws so that I can play 1 or more items that result in an explosive endgame that can win regardless of the previous board position."
c. Defined by style of play: A deck that is non-interactive and uses a combination of cards to create an endgame that can win regardless of the previous board position.
Now, these are how I would define combo. I think these are all very accurate in describing what makes a deck a combo deck. They also all focus only on what would be a strictly combo deck and not on a deck that may include a combo as a secondary finisher. All of the definitions we could consider have 2 things in common though: 1. They are non-interactive, 2. They ignore board position. These things put pure combo in a category that wizards would consider not fun. Wizards wants to see us interacting with our opponents, and they want to see board position matter. Games without this tend to lead to games that are not fun for at least one of the players. Also, while winning with a combo can be fun for a while, it does get old even for the person playing it. This makes it a bad idea for Wizards to have combos strong enough to be the focal point for a deck in a format for any extended period of time.
Wizards does like strong interactions and strong engines for decks though, so mistakes are possible. Mostly I think their goal is to provide enough that the people who enjoy finding/building combos can still do so, while not letting that kind of strategy get out of hand. Combos can also still be successful. A perfect example is Heartless Summoning. I've been running it and tuning it for a while now with great results. For me the combo is secondary though. If I get the combo, that's great, but I can and will more often win without it.
2. Control
First, lets consider how we define contol. Remember I'm talking about control decks now and not fish decks.
Definition by gameplan: "I will disrupt my opponent's gameplan long enough to resolve an unstoppable threat and win in a few turns."
The problem here is much the same as above. No one likes seeing their deck shut down completely. We are willing to accept a certain amount of disruption in the course of a game, but for the most part, no one likes to play against control. Control really isn't the most fun to play either though, so I can understand why Wizards would want to weaken this a bit. The other problem with control as an archetype though is that it puts you on a defensive strategy for the majority of the game. No war is ever won defensively. Because of this, Fish decks will almost always take the place of control anyways. They offer better diversity and stronger matchups almost all around the board. They're also more flexible and will operate more effectively in a diverse metagame where less is known about what your opponents are playing. Wizards really didn't have to do much to take control out of the picture, it was generally stuck in tier 2 due to it's tempo based counterparts already anyways.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
2 Myr Galvanizer + 1 iron Myr + other myr.
Devil's play two go's at it. they'd better have two mana leaks.
I also use Kessig Wolf Run..
I haven't thought about using Genesis Wave.. I'll test that.
All we need is an enchantment-Aura that is t add 1/1 creature into play in the next set (or the next standard)... and Midnight guard goes off.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
P.A. was a combo deck. When it went off, they usually did win.
Its just like ANT in Legacy. That deck doesnt always win you the game when you go off, sometimes you lose from too much damage, but its still a combo deck. Drawing multiple cards and increasing a Storm count is the same as recuring lightning bolts with P.A.
Valakult in Standard (As opposed to Scapeshift Extended Version) was very similar to a combo deck, but more a Synergistic deck with a bit of a Back up plan of beating face with Titans. P.A is more 'all in'.
Standard: RWB Dega Burn RWB
Modern: 1 Top Control 1
Legacy: XU Manaless Blue Dredge XU
EDH: Edric, Spymaster of Tres 1UG
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy 1UBR
I miss casting Snapcaster Mage + Rampant Growth
2x Heartless summoning+1x Corpse Cur+Falkenrath Noble enchanted with Skeletal Grimace.
It's amazing right!???
On a serious note, I hope there is a good combo in the next set to make combo a tier 1 deck again.
You do realize that you said the stop to an infinite mana combo is having 2 of a card that require you to pay mana to resolve your spell...
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
The other issue is they are too disruptable. When aggro decks can reasonably interact without sideboarding, then the combo deck is too disruptable. For instance, a combo deck that dies to all common creature removal is going to fail hard.
So what happens when a combo deck gets both of these. We get a tier one deck that can only be realistically beat by tier 1.5+ control. Wizards doesn't want this because New players are drawn to aggro, and aggro traditionally folds to combo before sideboarding, and New players aren't very good at that. Heck, old players aren't good at that. This makes many feel powerless to stop the combo player.
So wizards nerfed it. The end. Just play ramp, as that's the closest thing to combo you can realistically win with. The triangle has been broken because it wasn't fun. Instead of combo control aggro, we have ramp tempo aggro. Whatever, that is what eternal formats are for. High Tide will never get boring.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
pretty much i just start with a palladium myr and 2 galvanizers and create an infinite mana loop. From there i use the loop to blue sun zenith for alot. I then play Progenitor Myr and create and equip him with swiftfoot boots and create an infinite myr token loop. From there I can do one of a few things.
Depending on how the game went before that I can use Tezzeret's ult and cause infinite damage, I can use Myr Battlesphere and then put swiftboot's on him and swing. Using his ability, tap my infinite myr and do infinite damage directly.
Also, if i can't do my infinite token loop I can hit you with Exsanguinate for infinite damage as well.
Oh and it is very easy for me to protect my myrs with things like Vapor Snag, Cancel, Mana leak, and turn aside. Additionally, with Shimmer Myr I can play all the pieces at the end of your turn.
As for the mana cost to get it starts its not that hard also, Since my are mostly mana sources to start with. Throw in 4 Mox Opals and a Myr Resevoir and your good to go.
Also, with creatures like Riddlesmith and consecrated sphinx and blue uon zenith, card draw is easy. Also With Kuldotha Forgemaster, Myr Turbine, Call of the Kindred, Shape Anew, and Tezzeret, it is easy to get the pieces I need to kick off the combo.
So you can still combo... just requires some finagling
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8087737&postcount=1888
There's my decklist for anyone interested, it's still a work in progress. Molten-Tail Masticore and Gnaw to the Bone need to find their way into the deck too, that would probably improve the deck a bit giving some defense against aggro and more resiliency to the welders, but that's for another thread.
I don't expect it to win any tournaments or anything, but if it could get to the point that it's capable of winning an FNM that would be kind of cool.
Combo is dead in standard, and that will be good in the long term because it means a larger player base. That larger player base will get experience, and get interested in the combo decks of old, and try modern, and a new generation of combo players will be there. Combo has to dye in standard so it can safely exist elsewhere.
Again, if you really enjoy combo, ramp plays very similar to older style combo decks. Do action A so much so quickly, that action B is game winning. Feels like a combo deck which is good enough for a lot of people. If you just liked the raw speed of combo, blitz aggro is close. If you want to play storm it is pretty cheap to build in modern, and budget high tide is decent in legacy.
Tldr; The killing of combo is good because it means more players, which means more people who play eternal which means combo never really dies, just moves to place that can handle it.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
I don't know about you but I think combo is fun to play with/against. And I think it is more interactive than Aggro is in the current standard. Hell, splinter twin was more interactive with my U/B control than RDW/Goblins.
Couldn't agree with Morimacil's post more.
Agreed.
But his post and the people who agree with him are the reason that Wizards has nerfed it. What people don't realize is that while degenerate Combo decks are bad, degenerate Aggro decks or degenerate Control decks are just as bad.
Caw Blade was bad. Is it combo? So then it's okay? Is Faeries bad? Jund? The list goes on. Although I don't consider any of these decks to be degenerate and didn't have problems with any of these (except maybe Jund for a while), these decks are just as "unfun" for a new player to play against. Who's to say that a new player would rather be tapped out every upkeep by Mistbind Cliques rather than lose to lands being discarded on 1 turn by Seismic Assault with Swans of Brynn Argoll in play?
Personally I miss Combo so much that all of my EDH decks have them. It is to the point that people have to gang up on me or lose to some "unfun" combo. I really need to make a non combo EDH deck.
Also yes, I've played Type 1. It was my top choice for many years. Only since Ravnica have I really started to get into Standard. I don't see it as boring at all, although I really do personally dislike Prison decks (I don't know if they still have those). Nothing sucks more than losing to a Goblin Welder over the course of 15 turns or so (with Barbarian Ring) when you can't do anything.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)There's a new combo from DKA, Knowledge Pool+Curse of Exhaustion. It stops your opponent from casting spells from their hand. Also, Counterlash has combo potential with a plan B of Quicksilver Amulet. You can counter your own Snapcaster or Memnite to get a Blightsteel into play, if they refuse to play creatures.
Another combo might be early reanimation of Vorinclex and maybe a Chancellor of the Annex to lock them down so much they can never recover.
Blightsteel/Shape Anew is great if they don't have ancient grudge. You can protect the colossus from O-ring etc just fine, but if they grudge your target artifact it kinda sucks. I played it for about a month, got bored, because it was " do they have ancient grudge ".dec.
Solar Flare image cascade (Unburial Rites into Sun Titan into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Phantasmal Image into Liliana sacrifice your blocker, 30 damage on board) could be considered combo, I think. Anything involving reanimating a win con is pretty combo-y.
If there was like Presence of Grond for Midnight Guard that'd be fine because you can see it coming and answer it normally at sorcery speed. If they're running Urubrask or something, then that's a three card combo, and if you want to curve into that they'll see it coming.
Heartless Rites combo is around and is quite potent. It's quite resilient because its plan B is kill you with cheap titans and wurmcoils, but if you misstep he might just go Havengul Lich + Priest of Urbrask + Summoning + Perilous Myr or Devils Play to win.
A lot have pointed out the limited card pool for combo, and I agree totally. Lets say that in AVR, Avacyn turns out to be a seriously controlly card, like Iona, Shield of Emeria, then Unburial Rites into her would be a new combo.
UB UB control (bad, but at least I crush control)
UWR tempo.
Modern:
BUG teachings
UGW Cloudstone Value
EDH:
UBR Thraximundar
UBW Sharuum, the Hegemon (fair deck, I swear)
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
BG Savra, Queen of the Golgari
RUG Intet, the Dreamer
Out of those, only one is stupid and boring. Unfortunately that's the one that is primarily thought of when we think of combo. Engine based combos are among the most complicated decks to correctly pilot, and the most rewarding. They are not linear in any way. Pyromancer ascension is actually pretty tame compared to other engine based combos such as Solidarity and Eggs.
But stupid crap like splinter twin gets all the glory.
Combo AND control have been heavily nerfed in recent years. The reasoning is simple. Both require a level of experience to comfortably interact with, which new players don't have. The new player then feels powerless and quits before they ever had a chance to learn how to deal with those kind of decks.
Basically, wizards wants standard to be a place for players to get comfortable with the game, and still have offerings for experienced players. I think it is great, but I'm overly optimistic about most things, so take what I've said with a grain of sour.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
I think heartless is how wizards wants combo at this point. Its not dead, but you can't run just the combo and hope to win. Heartless has multiple game plans, and one of them is a combo. This seems like a good place for combo.
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
The fact that the one and only tier one game plan boils down to beating faces with creatures is getting on my nerves.
Ps. If this kind of gameplay is scaring off new players, this game needs better new players.
Or you could play Modern/Legacy/Vintage and play combo whenever you want.
T1: Reveal Chancellor of the Tangle from opening hand; add G to your mana pool. Play mountain, tap, play Immolating Souleater.
T2: Island. Play Assault Strobe on souleater. Play Artful Dodge on souleater. Activate pump ability 9 times, going to 2 life. Swing with 10/1 unblockable for game.
It's very easily stopped by something as dumb as Shock or even Gut Shot, but it's still very fast. It's really the only semi-reliable t2/3 win in standard. I'll try this at a local FNM sometime