You can keep telling yourself that Titans don't require any skill, but it's simply not true. And let's pretend that it was true (as you allege). Why wouldn't you play with them then? The best magic players in the world show up and play with Titans because they want to win? Do you not want to?
hey jjdrew and OP, you need to realize that discussing about how this card is a terrible durdling 30 cent rare that will never work is legit in a thread tagged [SCD]. last I checked, saying it's terrible compared to titans is discussing the card. it might not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth. I'd say if you're gunning for an echo chamber, try out Standard Deck Creation.
so, uhhhh... why exactly would you run this? you don't need random instants and sorceries if you can just pay the same for a Wurmcoil or Inferno Titan.
Take your monoblack deck, then set aside 14 swamps. Add 4 Creeping Tar Pits, 4 Darkslick Shores, 4 Drowned Catacombs, and 2 Jwar isle Refuge and add 4 Jace, the Mindsculptors. Your monoblack deck is instantly better. Better yet, drop those refuges, throw in some islands and some mana leaks, and lo and behold, you're now playing a real deck. Congratulations. Welcome to the world of competitive M:TG.
hey jjdrew and OP, you need to realize that discussing about how this card is a terrible durdling 30 cent rare that will never work is legit in a thread tagged [SCD]. last I checked, saying it's terrible compared to titans is discussing the card. it might not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth. I'd say if you're gunning for an echo chamber, try out Standard Deck Creation.
so, uhhhh... why exactly would you run this? you don't need random instants and sorceries if you can just pay the same for a Wurmcoil or Inferno Titan.
...when did I claim Titans are worse than charmbreaker devils? I play with Titans all the time, and not with the devils. The idea of this thread was to discuss thecard and its applications for decks, not whether they are better than any titan, which they obviously are not.
I do not run the card because the Titans are better. And if you want to discuss prices, frost titan, once considered the best is $2, not too far ahead of the devils. Inferno is $3. Sun is $4. Mind you that Frost titan is pretty good against WRR, and doesn't see play by the pros.
Guess ill have to take this to deck standard deck construction... if I were going to make a serious attempt at a build.
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You can keep telling yourself that Titans don't require any skill, but it's simply not true. And let's pretend that it was true (as you allege). Why wouldn't you play with them then? The best magic players in the world show up and play with Titans because they want to win? Do you not want to?
We have had these discussions before CorpT. I do play with them, as a matter of fact, my RUG deck runs 2 Inferno Titans and 2 Frost Titans and 2 Wurmcoil Engines (and 2 Consecrated Sphinx, and 2 Huntmaster, and a Karn, a lot of money cards (and 3 snapcaster)). I wasn't be sarcastic. I am just planning for post rotation and cards that might have some potential.
I definitely play with titans, but I also get bored of them, which is why I started this thread.
hey jjdrew and OP, you need to realize that discussing about how this card is a terrible durdling 30 cent rare that will never work is legit in a thread tagged [SCD]. last I checked, saying it's terrible compared to titans is discussing the card. it might not be what you want to hear, but it's the truth. I'd say if you're gunning for an echo chamber, try out Standard Deck Creation.
so, uhhhh... why exactly would you run this? you don't need random instants and sorceries if you can just pay the same for a Wurmcoil or Inferno Titan.
Read above, and what jjdrew said.
The reason for this discussion is listed in the OP. Yes, titans are da secs, they are incredible, I am just looking at other cards also. Note, that for a while Consecrated Sphinx was only $4 and Wurmcoil Engine got down to $6, so please, don't blame me for trying to pick up cards that might go up in value. And even if they don't, the [SCD] tag is meant to talk about the single card. (Single Card Discussion), therefore, I wanted to talk about the single card, not make it a multiple card comparison.
We are not discussing titans. We are discussing Charmbreaker Devils, because the card seems good, fun, and requires skill to play, unlike the decks with Primeval Titan. Yes, few 6 drops are worth playing if they are not 6/6 with an etb trigger and an attack trigger that are gamechanging. We are discussing how to play with Charmbreaker Devils and what kind of deck would use the card.
I think the ramp idea is fine. Not sure I'd dedicate the deck to that, but I am wanting to play my deck with 4 pristine talisman. That may be overkill, but they pull you out of aggro games and ramp you. And with the devils you aren't going to randomly get your ramp back from your graveyard.
Charmbreakers, any 6 drop, and most 5 drops, will always be compared to Titans because Titans are the best creatures in those slots atm. The value of Charmbreakers is nonexistent right now: It's too slow and it doesn't guarantee anything good even if you untap with it. For 6 mana, it's got a 4 sized butt and no evasion. It won't be good even after Titans rotate unless something really good comes with it.
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"If you're Havengul problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems and a Lich ain't one." - FSM
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Pfft, dont worry about these dudes bad mouthing the idea, i built up a deck last night in cockatrice and played with 2 charmbreakers in it along with a hell of a lot of flash back and had a great time.
I've always enjoyed decks that are a bit different, i've got a W/b/r tokens deck thats doing well around my local, but im more interested in this deck now haha, who knows what will be in the new set that might help out as well?
I wanted to build a devils deck with Forge Devil since i saw the art (and then pulled a foil) so this is perfect for me.
Basics of the deck was:
Creatures: Forge Devil, Chandra's Phoenix, Charmbreaker
Draw/FB: Faithless Looting, Think Twice
Burn: Giestflame, Whipflare, Incinerate
I was stupid and was running with 4 artful dodge to try boost charmbreaker twice and rush through, never happens so will probly cut that back for next trial runs
Anyway, cheers for the idea OP, having fun with this will keep checking back from time to time
I once farted during the final match for prizes at an FNM. It was a tense moment, everything was quiet, control vs control, I was about to mana leak, thought about it.. and farted. Then mana leaked.
Yeah, I'm usually the guy to defend people's card choices in Standard..but Charmbreaker Devils is kind of pushing it.
It's a 6 mana 4/4 that could do nothing. That's not the best card in the world, and I'd still play other 6 drops over it post Titans.
It does nothing if you aren't playing sorceries or instants. If you are, it recurs one each turn to your hand, then when you cast it, it makes him bigger than a titan. If he were a 4/3, he would be terrible, and he isn't great now, but imagine with Assault Strobe or even a shock. A single shock, that is a removal spell + 8 damage a turn, no creatures? Then 10 damage a turn.
what hurts is that unless you run it in like RUG or RG deck then it wont typically hit the board until t6... and that can hurt trying to stay out of harms way until then. although running it with ramp growth, birds, and liek giant growth or wild hunger would be awesome.
the only idea coming to me at the moment is that when I Fling this card i goes for 8 damage immediately. I'm currently working on this with Pristine Talisman and Sphere of the Suns to ramp may UR. also considering Green for real ramping but that's another story
the only idea coming to me at the moment is that when I Fling this card i goes for 8 damage immediately. I'm currently working on this with Pristine Talisman and Sphere of the Suns to ramp may UR. also considering Green for real ramping but that's another story
It does nothing if you aren't playing sorceries or instants. If you are, it recurs one each turn to your hand, then when you cast it, it makes him bigger than a titan. If he were a 4/3, he would be terrible, and he isn't great now, but imagine with Assault Strobe or even a shock. A single shock, that is a removal spell + 8 damage a turn, no creatures? Then 10 damage a turn.
Which is strictly worse than Grave Titan or Inferno Titan. Shock isn't what will make him worthwhile.
I see the main problem with this guy being that he does nothing when he hits the board, and on top of that he has no protection all. That at 6 mana will lead to being blown out more often than not in a control shell and him being to expensive for a aggro shell. Kiln Fiends low cost lent to him being a marginal build around card. To make a card like either of these really good it would need haste not some random spell recursion clause.
The best situation for this is when you play red+something control and use this as a 1-2 turn finisher, that also gives you 1 card per turn. Now in this situation sphinx or every titan you can get access to are better.
It's a good point looking forward to the highly likely fact that Titans (better) drop for M13 - and what the value and usefulness of Charmbreaker Devils could be then.
I want to love this card. It made for a fantastic set up for me in the prerelease combined with some white removal spells and the +2/+2 lifelink. I like its' potential for sure, free card draw/recursion is very atypical for red.
So kudos to those trying to take a look at it. If there's a separate thread for deck construction ideas does anyone have a link?
I play a single Charmbreaker Devils in my Hippo-Blade list. It's pretty good, he gets stuff done. Having recurrable Slagstorms and Timely Reinforcements is often too hilarious for words, especially since he doesn't die to Slagstorm.
He also has been known to fetch me game-winning Devil's Plays out of my graveyard, which has been cute a couple of times. Definitely glad I added him.
I like the R/U potential here. This card would appear to be a good fit for a deck running Delver of Secrets. Both cards obviously benefit from favoring more sorceries and instants than other card types. Snapcaster is also a solid choice.
Vapor Snag in response to it's trigger could almost count as evasion by potentially removing two of an opponents creatures and inflicting 2 direct damage. CitP effects could also really make this a subpar choice, really depends upon the opponent.
The random return could be a problem though, as it would be rough depending upon getting a certain spell back to help lock the game when there are multiple legal cards for the ability to return.
I'm also trying to look beyond 2012 and see where the meta will be without Titans, Sphinxes and Wurmcoil Engines. It is going to be a very different game and a 4/4 for 6 with this ability may not stack up that badly compared to the other haymakers of the era.
A: Awesome and worth building a deck around, especially without cards like Dismember and Titans running rampant.
B: Totally worthless because no one wants to play 6 drops that don't give you instant advantage.
As for the issue of random card recursion, I think the trick is to build a deck of only cards you want to be recurring, and consider that the bonus that it is, not your gameplan.
Recurring cards is your way to finish the game, or slowly break stalemates, not your super-ultimate combo to build the deck around.
Maybe a R/U Runechanters pike build after rotation? There will be less reason for people to side board artifact hate, no swords, no titans, etc.
Pike works really well with CBD, as well as with delver, and invisible stalker.
I think a fun idea would be building a deck around him and fling and dodge as a one turn kill. Just a ton of burn, permission and jank like artful dodge and turn aside.
You could run four GitaxIan and four gut shot, some other really cheap stuff, so you could go for the twenty damage fling or attack with counters up.
Basically you remove or counter every threat, and win with devils in a single blow on turn 7.
I mean it's janky as hell, but it could be good enuff for fnm.
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You can keep telling yourself that Titans don't require any skill, but it's simply not true. And let's pretend that it was true (as you allege). Why wouldn't you play with them then? The best magic players in the world show up and play with Titans because they want to win? Do you not want to?
so, uhhhh... why exactly would you run this? you don't need random instants and sorceries if you can just pay the same for a Wurmcoil or Inferno Titan.
...when did I claim Titans are worse than charmbreaker devils? I play with Titans all the time, and not with the devils. The idea of this thread was to discuss thecard and its applications for decks, not whether they are better than any titan, which they obviously are not.
I do not run the card because the Titans are better. And if you want to discuss prices, frost titan, once considered the best is $2, not too far ahead of the devils. Inferno is $3. Sun is $4. Mind you that Frost titan is pretty good against WRR, and doesn't see play by the pros.
Guess ill have to take this to deck standard deck construction... if I were going to make a serious attempt at a build.
EDH:
Zur, The Enchanter
Modern:
Burn
Legacy:
Cheeri0s
Burn
We have had these discussions before CorpT. I do play with them, as a matter of fact, my RUG deck runs 2 Inferno Titans and 2 Frost Titans and 2 Wurmcoil Engines (and 2 Consecrated Sphinx, and 2 Huntmaster, and a Karn, a lot of money cards (and 3 snapcaster)). I wasn't be sarcastic. I am just planning for post rotation and cards that might have some potential.
I definitely play with titans, but I also get bored of them, which is why I started this thread.
Read above, and what jjdrew said.
The reason for this discussion is listed in the OP. Yes, titans are da secs, they are incredible, I am just looking at other cards also. Note, that for a while Consecrated Sphinx was only $4 and Wurmcoil Engine got down to $6, so please, don't blame me for trying to pick up cards that might go up in value. And even if they don't, the [SCD] tag is meant to talk about the single card. (Single Card Discussion), therefore, I wanted to talk about the single card, not make it a multiple card comparison.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Charmbreakers, any 6 drop, and most 5 drops, will always be compared to Titans because Titans are the best creatures in those slots atm. The value of Charmbreakers is nonexistent right now: It's too slow and it doesn't guarantee anything good even if you untap with it. For 6 mana, it's got a 4 sized butt and no evasion. It won't be good even after Titans rotate unless something really good comes with it.
"In a world where money talks, silence is horrifying."
Ashcoat Bear of Limited
I've always enjoyed decks that are a bit different, i've got a W/b/r tokens deck thats doing well around my local, but im more interested in this deck now haha, who knows what will be in the new set that might help out as well?
I wanted to build a devils deck with Forge Devil since i saw the art (and then pulled a foil) so this is perfect for me.
Basics of the deck was:
Creatures: Forge Devil, Chandra's Phoenix, Charmbreaker
Draw/FB: Faithless Looting, Think Twice
Burn: Giestflame, Whipflare, Incinerate
I was stupid and was running with 4 artful dodge to try boost charmbreaker twice and rush through, never happens so will probly cut that back for next trial runs
Anyway, cheers for the idea OP, having fun with this will keep checking back from time to time
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Rotation talk.
If only.
Yeah, I'm usually the guy to defend people's card choices in Standard..but Charmbreaker Devils is kind of pushing it.
It's a 6 mana 4/4 that could do nothing. That's not the best card in the world, and I'd still play other 6 drops over it post Titans.
It does nothing if you aren't playing sorceries or instants. If you are, it recurs one each turn to your hand, then when you cast it, it makes him bigger than a titan. If he were a 4/3, he would be terrible, and he isn't great now, but imagine with Assault Strobe or even a shock. A single shock, that is a removal spell + 8 damage a turn, no creatures? Then 10 damage a turn.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
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Fling will only deal 4.
Which is strictly worse than Grave Titan or Inferno Titan. Shock isn't what will make him worthwhile.
I want to love this card. It made for a fantastic set up for me in the prerelease combined with some white removal spells and the +2/+2 lifelink. I like its' potential for sure, free card draw/recursion is very atypical for red.
So kudos to those trying to take a look at it. If there's a separate thread for deck construction ideas does anyone have a link?
He also has been known to fetch me game-winning Devil's Plays out of my graveyard, which has been cute a couple of times. Definitely glad I added him.
Because we care about facts.
Vapor Snag in response to it's trigger could almost count as evasion by potentially removing two of an opponents creatures and inflicting 2 direct damage. CitP effects could also really make this a subpar choice, really depends upon the opponent.
The random return could be a problem though, as it would be rough depending upon getting a certain spell back to help lock the game when there are multiple legal cards for the ability to return.
I'm also trying to look beyond 2012 and see where the meta will be without Titans, Sphinxes and Wurmcoil Engines. It is going to be a very different game and a 4/4 for 6 with this ability may not stack up that badly compared to the other haymakers of the era.
A: Awesome and worth building a deck around, especially without cards like Dismember and Titans running rampant.
B: Totally worthless because no one wants to play 6 drops that don't give you instant advantage.
As for the issue of random card recursion, I think the trick is to build a deck of only cards you want to be recurring, and consider that the bonus that it is, not your gameplan.
Recurring cards is your way to finish the game, or slowly break stalemates, not your super-ultimate combo to build the deck around.
Maybe a R/U Runechanters pike build after rotation? There will be less reason for people to side board artifact hate, no swords, no titans, etc.
Pike works really well with CBD, as well as with delver, and invisible stalker.
Don't think anyone in this thread (even the OP) is debating that.
Even after rotation it won't be mega solid, but if someone wants to play the card for a laugh more power to them.
You could run four GitaxIan and four gut shot, some other really cheap stuff, so you could go for the twenty damage fling or attack with counters up.
Basically you remove or counter every threat, and win with devils in a single blow on turn 7.
I mean it's janky as hell, but it could be good enuff for fnm.