The dead removal is a good point; no sense in adding something that activates your opponent's hand.
Nihil Spell bomb is a problem. It can be countered, but it cost one mana and that's not really something we can just counter ethically*. Your side board didn't contain anything that will sow up the issue any more than counter magic (most of which are Mana Leaks). We are also a little more susceptible to Surgical Extraction and Purify the Grave because we actually use the things in our yard, those are a little less used, but we still lose out against them because of Mana Leak.
(Back to Nihil) The Splinterfright thread brought up Witchbane Orb; worth a look? Wouldn't be more than a two of but even then it might be to slow for what we want it for. I suggested Phyrexian Revoker, but back to your good point about activating removal; I don't see a solid answer... We can't hold Dissipates; it would be difficult to play around, we'd have to use draw spells fairly conservatively just so we don't lose to much Vengeance ammo. If they drop it we'd have to respond somewhere to use those draws then they could sneak a solid beater in under us.
To continue the issue of straight up hate, Ray of Revelation is going to eat face by also being ethically uncounterable. We won't be pinning any answers to draws if we can't defend Vengeance. Will we be able to win on the back of Devil's Play alone?
Now the over arching question: Are these cards worth fighting? Or does the deck just run in a way that it is not bothered by losing these things (until a certain point) and it's about remaining calm.
I don't think the Vengeance deck is going to have a great match up vs W/x.
*Lol, blue players don't have ethics!
There are two main issues we have to fight: Nihil Spellbomb, and Oblivion Ring (other enchantment removal can only be fought by counters).
I was previously running 2-3 Ancient Grudge in the SB, but because we don't have an established metagame I decided not to branch into that area. I still do, however, always prefer to build my decks as a 75, not a 60.
Now in terms of a white splash, something I neglected to mention here was it has been seriously considered in the other thread. The cards splashed for included Sun Titan (to recur a dead/discarded Vengeance), Day of Judgment, Oblivion Ring and Feeling of Dread, among others. Some even went far enough as to cut black altogether, except for Alchemy.
Note that G2 removal is a different story. If they see no creatures G1, you can board in Revokers and they will board out all removal G2. I have even considered boarding in Delvers and/or Chandra's Phoenix G2, but it's not my style. You could also board in Wurmcoil/Elesh/Consecrated/etc G2.
Also note that you can play around Nihil Spellbomb in a similar fashion to dredge, or mass removal: you don't overcommit, and you force them to pull the trigger. Alternatively you can dump instants and threaten to flashback in response, and they'll realise they can only do it once and likely wait.
Even then, once they do blow up the bomb you can untap and Devil's Play them.
EDIT: Forgot to discuss O-ring. You can either kill the O-ring, or O-ring it yourself. To kill it you either have to play Naturalise in tandem with a G2 green splash (which you don't really want to do) or play white. Playing white still probably doesn't justify Ray, because 5 colours will be highly unstable, so you'd probably have to cut black and cut Doom Blade, which is again something you probably don't want to do. So the best option would be white for O-rings of your own, and hope that counters + drawing more of them will outdo your opponents O-rings.
Keep in mind the deck functions perfectly well without an active BV, short of killing them. It just gets unfair with an active BV. Also don't be afraid to flashback dig to survive if you don't have a BV. As long as you're alive, you can still come back and win, but if you're dead, it gets a bit more difficult.
EDIT 2: I don't have much time, but the short answer is that Orb is too slow IMO. It's only going to work if you're getting more advantage out of it than just anti-Nihil. Also note that you are paying 4 mana to kill a 1 mana artifact.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
What about putting Memory's Journey in the side? It messes with Ray of Revelation and it crushes UB control's recursion. I know the green color is off, but with a few deck lists I've tested shimmering grotto helps with this and the B in Forbidden alchemy's FB cost. Additionally, we can shuffle BV back into the deck if enough get destroyed. Remember, you don't have to target the actual cards until after it resolves.
If you don't want to go into the side board yet, I have no objections in waiting. I just think there is plenty of hate for our type of deck; hate is sometimes the entire reason not to play a certain style in the first place.
Playing around the Spellbomb will be hard, that's a practiced skill and your opponent will never be the same twice. Though I understand the logic for it.
Vengeance go White!? I'm shocked... even a little appalled. When the deck idea was introduced awhile back (very pre-DKA spoilers) I thought the coolest part about the deck was that we didn't stall to land a traditional six plus CMC thing to overwhelm the opponent. Since our costs were low we could adjust our game to fit the opponent's speed; drop a Vengeance early if an aggro just needs some Shocks thrown at them, wait awhile and build card advantage if a control deck was threatening a long game. Adding the six CMC feels like betrayal. Day and O-Ring wouldn't be bad though, I don't see any other reasons for a White splash. Feeling of Dread? I don't think tempo is very good in a deck that intentionally draws out games for eight plus turns. Also, I hate playing White; whole other discussion...
I like the bait and switch with the Revoker and Delver, some sad faces in game two.
I want so badly to splash for Acidic Slime, but I don't think he adds anything. He has been a cure all for my other decks. Green in general doesn't really add anything to this deck unless it comes paired on the back side of Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation... Lame. Think one or two Grotto MB would make both playable while not shaking your mana base to hard? If you White splash then you can board two Ray and two Grudge and totally rip into decks using any A&E. - Remembered that you mentioned no solid Meta yet therefore no SB, we'll call it planning ahead.
Removing Black is a big step, just consider one card; Sever the Bloodline. How is this thing not played in Vengeance!? It answers token hordes, Wurmcoils and Sun Titan chains, not to mention any non-Hexproof creature! The thing has Flashback to do it again then proc Vengeance! (Note, that it is cheaper to flash back with a Snapcaster.) Not to mention Doom Blade is hard to forget, we can throw BSZ all day and not have an issue (which is better than Day, in both mine and Thrun's opinion). O-Ring... I... Well I already said I hate playing White.
What about putting Memory's Journey in the side? It messes with Ray of Revelation and it crushes UB control's recursion. I know the green color is off, but with a few deck lists I've tested shimmering grotto helps with this and the B in Forbidden alchemy's FB cost. Additionally, we can shuffle BV back into the deck if enough get destroyed. Remember, you don't have to target the actual cards until after it resolves.
How does it mess with Ray of Revelation? If they've killed our BV, we're screwed anyway and we can plan for the second copy with a counterspell. The green is fine, splashing 4-6 green sources worked perfectly well with Ancient Grudge. I just don't think the card is anywhere near good enough. Put it this way: would you play it if it didn't have flashback? I certainly wouldn't, and that means it's mostly terrible and situationally marginal.
Vengeance go White!? I'm shocked... even a little appalled. When the deck idea was introduced awhile back (very pre-DKA spoilers) I thought the coolest part about the deck was that we didn't stall to land a traditional six plus CMC thing to overwhelm the opponent. Since our costs were low we could adjust our game to fit the opponent's speed; drop a Vengeance early if an aggro just needs some Shocks thrown at them, wait awhile and build card advantage if a control deck was threatening a long game. Adding the six CMC feels like betrayal. Day and O-Ring wouldn't be bad though, I don't see any other reasons for a White splash. Feeling of Dread? I don't think tempo is very good in a deck that intentionally draws out games for eight plus turns. Also, I hate playing White; whole other discussion...
Well, what you think is cool about a deck doesn't make it win any more games. TBF, almost all of the original lists (before I proposed creatureless with Sorin's Vengeance; ah, those were the days :D) ran some kind of creature package, most commonly Wurmcoil Engines.
Feeling of Dread shouldn't be considered tempo per se. It should be considered something to keep you alive versus aggro, that also has flashback for BV. It's great against red, it's great against Illusions, and you can only run 4 Slagstorms.
Whoa, speaking of which, WE'RE NOT PLAYING RATCHET BOMB! I cannot believe I hadn't thought of that! Geez, that has colossal potential!
1) It kills artifacts (Shrines, particularly).
2) It kills O-ring.
3) It kills tokens.
4) It makes red cry.
5) It's Slagstorm 5-7.
6) It only costs 2 mana!
7) It kills Tempered Steel (both the card and the deck)
8) It kills Nihil Spellbomb!
I want so badly to splash for Acidic Slime, but I don't think he adds anything. He has been a cure all for my other decks. Green in general doesn't really add anything to this deck unless it comes paired on the back side of Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation... Lame. Think one or two Grotto MB would make both playable while not shaking your mana base to hard? If you White splash then you can board two Ray and two Grudge and totally rip into decks using any A&E. - Remembered that you mentioned no solid Meta yet therefore no SB, we'll call it planning ahead.
Acidic Slime is not going to help for two reasons: 1) It costs 5, and 2) it can't come back with Snapcaster (and therefore has zero synergy with BV). Not only that, but 3GG means your manabase is going to have to warp a lot.
1-2 Grotto is fine. I don't want to build your manabase for you. I personally wouldn't bother unless you have 4+ colours in your deck though, the 3 colour mana is really consistent ATM.
Removing Black is a big step, just consider one card; Sever the Bloodline. How is this thing not played in Vengeance!? It answers token hordes, Wurmcoils and Sun Titan chains, not to mention any non-Hexproof creature! The thing has Flashback to do it again then proc Vengeance! (Note, that it is cheaper to flash back with a Snapcaster.) Not to mention Doom Blade is hard to forget, we can throw BSZ all day and not have an issue (which is better than Day, in both mine and Thrun's opinion). O-Ring... I... Well I already said I hate playing White.
Sever was in my original decklist on page 3 of the old thread. The problem is, it's a bad Doom Blade except against 1) Wurmcoil and 2) 3+ tokens. The 5BB to flash it back is pretty harsh too, and also forces you to run 8-9 black duals, which can potentially conflict if you planned to splash green.
Note that I really want to find more room in the board for Dissipates (they go in both against Control and Wolf Run), I just can't find room ATM. I'll have to work on it.
EDIT 3: Wait, Wolf Run is probably going to be a smaller part of the metagame because of Sorin 2.0, so I think I will swap the Flashfreezes for Dissipates. Doom Blade comes in against them anyway. Nobody in their right mind is gonna be playing Wolf Run Green (that thing is a nightmare), so Dissipate pretty much equals Flashfreeze anyway when you're not worried about turn 2 Dungrove Elder.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Memories Journey could be a one of, maybe. I'm more likely to run Elixir of Immortality because you can save your whole yard from Nihil. Since we already have land in play and other things accomplished, our draws should be a little more efficient. The idea is debatable. Journey however can replace destroyed Vengeance and dead Snapcasters; a one of just to make for less panic when we lost 3-4 Vengeance. Also a cheap response to Nihil to save important things.
I have no intention of adding Acidic Slime to the deck, lol, it has just been in 100% of my standard decks since Innistrad (Mono-Green, WR-Green, Jund Run). It was a nice segue into justifying Ray and Grudge. At any rate, I'll probably have two Grotto in the mana base when I find time to build something.
I still like Sever. If Wolf Run becomes less popular and tokens become more popular, then aren't we going to see more uses for this card? Control loves Wurmcoil, and Solar Flare is still scary (my area runs the Sun Titan chains that often copy Rune-Scared once a turn).
Ratchet bomb does not kill Nihil; well... it does, but they can just respond to it and remove our yard anyway. Maybe your point being that we can force them to pop it early?
A&E is Artifacts and Enchantments.
You have 3 Secrets of the Dead in your sideboard; I know the discussion about main boarding them has taken place, but you ended it by saying something along the lines of "any more than two is wrong and only if you run them at all".
Edit: I found the post, little different than I thought.
Secrets of the Dead is going to be okay MD as a 1-2 of, but the main point of BV is to staple answers onto your draw, not draw onto your answers. That said, you definitely want 4 in your 75, against control. The card is INSANE against control.
I'd still say cut one Secrets. Two of's shouldn't be to hard to find in this deck.
Argument for Secrets of the Dead (I think it is a strong 2 of) - Secrets of the Dead indeed does tag card draw onto card draw, and this is very important when you are digging for a BV as it helps you dig twice as fast. Then, once you have a BV on the field, it helps draw more "answers" or flashback spells to kill the opponent and his creatures.
Also, can someone please try and persuade me as to why I should be playing Faithless Looting in a DrawGo deck that never wants to play anything on its own turn? I understand the filtering ability is powerful, but I find the sorcery speed off putting.
Memories Journey could be a one of, maybe. I'm more likely to run Elixir of Immortality because you can save your whole yard from Nihil. Since we already have land in play and other things accomplished, our draws should be a little more efficient. The idea is debatable. Journey however can replace destroyed Vengeance and dead Snapcasters; a one of just to make for less panic when we lost 3-4 Vengeance. Also a cheap response to Nihil to save important things.
But the thing you're missing is that it is card disadvantage. Even if it was Noxious Revival we were talking about, you are guaranteed to get your BV. Memory's Journey shuffles it in. You are spending a card, to have a possible chance of drawing it again. Possible. You still have to spend that draw step drawing the card, which you would receive anyway, yet you lost a card from your hand. Card Advantage 101.
And forget saving cards from Nihil. That is totally unimportant. There is a reason you have redundancy in the deck. You should never have to save anything from Nihil. What is important is that you are still able to kill your opponent. Even if you have 4 BV and 2 Devil's Play in the yard, you can still win with Snapcasters (assuming they're not on 20). The card is far too situational.
I still like Sever. If Wolf Run becomes less popular and tokens become more popular, then aren't we going to see more uses for this card? Control loves Wurmcoil, and Solar Flare is still scary (my area runs the Sun Titan chains that often copy Rune-Scared once a turn).
If tokens become more popular, then it becomes a bad Slagstorm. I fail to see how it fights tokens better than Ratchet Bomb.
Yes, control loves Wurmcoil, and that is a known weakness of the deck. However, you still have Mana Leaks, you still have Dissipates, and I certainly wouldn't argue with you including a few copies of Sever if it's popular in your meta.
Note that you have Doom Blades to kill their Sun Titan, and if they resolve a 6-drop your counterspells are not doing their job.
Ratchet bomb does not kill Nihil; well... it does, but they can just respond to it and remove our yard anyway. Maybe your point being that we can force them to pop it early?
My point was that you should not overextend in the first place. Treat it like playing an aggro deck in the face of a known Wrath.
You have 3 Secrets of the Dead in your sideboard; I know the discussion about main boarding them has taken place, but you ended it by saying something along the lines of "any more than two is wrong and only if you run them at all".
Edit: I found the post, little different than I thought.
I'd still say cut one Secrets. Two of's shouldn't be to hard to find in this deck.
You're coming at it from the wrong angle. Against control, you want as many enchantments in play as possible. Card advantage is everything, so Burning Vengeance is backbreaking once it hits, unless they can deal with it - let alone Secrets of the Dead. There are two particular points I want to stress:
1) You want as many enchantments in play as possible at any given point. If you have two BV/Secrets in play, it's literally twice as good. Keep in mind that the triggers are uncounterable, so if you land Secrets + BV or 2x Secrets, they flat-out lose the game. They might as well concede.
2) Your opponent is still your opponent: they are going to be doing everything in their power to stop you resolving a BV/Secrets. Your job is simply to land one and ride it to victory. If you have 8 of them, your job becomes so much easier, simply because when they win the first counterwar or two, you can just drop another. (and they probably will, because 1) you tapped 3 mana first and 2) they likely run more counters G2).
Also keep in mind that the more copies you have in play, the harder it is for your opponent to kill them all. Also note that Surgical Extraction on one of them hurts a lot less when you have 4 of both.
The control mirror is very different to any other matchup, and should be approached as such. The games will go very long, and so any possible incremental advantage should be pushed as much as possible.
Argument for Secrets of the Dead (I think it is a strong 2 of) - Secrets of the Dead indeed does tag card draw onto card draw, and this is very important when you are digging for a BV as it helps you dig twice as fast. Then, once you have a BV on the field, it helps draw more "answers" or flashback spells to kill the opponent and his creatures.
But how often 'should' you be digging for a BV? The priority against aggro is speed in your answers, just to keep up. Dropping a 3 mana do-nothing enchantment early in the game is suicide, even if the card is BV - it is often better to hold your BV against fast aggro. BV, in many situations, takes too long to make up for itself - you need to flashback at least twice, and the price you pay in the meantime is the damage you take from the creatures that should have been dead two turns ago.
Secrets of the Dead is the same, but worse - after you flashback twice, you still haven killed any more creatures! You're basically dead at this point, as all the aggro decks in the format are more than capable of goldfishing turn 5, or putting you on a very precarious life total.
Even when you drop it lategame, after two flashbacks it becomes a very slow Divination - you really need to flashback three times for it to be worth it. Not only this, you really have to cut your card draw for it. You can't cut removal or answers, because that is severely compromising your early game against aggro and it does not represent the cards true purpose.
That said, I think it can be very powerful in some situations, and I am open to a 1-2 of maindeck. But as the deck stands, with the current spoiled cards as they are, Secrets of the Dead is best served as an occasionally good card that happens to practically autowin game 2 against control.
Also, can someone please try and persuade me as to why I should be playing Faithless Looting in a DrawGo deck that never wants to play anything on its own turn? I understand the filtering ability is powerful, but I find the sorcery speed off putting.
Okay, here goes:
1) It costs just one mana, making it extremely easy to cast. (Most important point)
2) You mostly don't want to flash spells back until late when you have an active BV, at which point 3 mana mainphase is likely irrelevant (you still have 4-5 mana left)
3) It finds lands early, and it finds answers early. It functions like a Preordain.
4) Unlike Ravings, you can cast it at almost any point, and it's very obvious when you can and cannot - Ravings can easily be a reverse blowout.
5) The deck does have to play spells on its own turn; it's not entirely Draw-go. BV/Secrets, Looting ;), Pristine Talisman and Devil's Play are all sorcery speed, as are O-ring and Sever.
6) The last thing you want to do is mainphase a Ravings to find land. This is more common than you think in a deck that runs 24 land but really wants to have the land drops of a 27 land deck. The two mana vs one mana does make a big difference, and Ravings also forces you to risk key cards in your hand, while Looting does not.
6a) Looting also does not pose the risk of drawing a land, then immediately discarding it. This has happened to me a number of times, and I can tell you it's bloody annoying.
I'll say it again: it costs ONE MANA.
That is the key that makes it so good.
EDIT: Also, you can dump stuff appropriately based on each matchup. Against aggro, you dump all your draw for later use, especially Think Twice. Against control, you get to dump your dead removal spells, which BTW is another huge point in Looting's favour.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Note that G2 removal is a different story. If they see no creatures G1, you can board in Revokers and they will board out all removal G2. I have even considered boarding in Delvers and/or Chandra's Phoenix G2, but it's not my style. You could also board in Wurmcoil/Elesh/Consecrated/etc G2.
Blanking their removal is the sweetest thing about this deck IMHO. I like the Delver board plan against control and ramp, since they are likely to have boarded out most of the removal and you can just catch them off guard. Obviously, it depends on what level you think your opponent is thinking at, their skill level and awareness and such. Even if you guess wrong, it's an easy plan against control since your Geistflames are dead against them and you can board in the Delvers basically for free.
I'm very firmly in the splashing for green camp. There's alot of Tempered Steel around at one of the stores around here, and Ancient Grudge is backbreaking. It also lets me run a singleton Naturalize if I like, which is rarely dead entirely, or alternatively just run a few in the board. Mostly O-Ring is the only thing anyone will actually be playing that can interact with BV, so that seems good. The green splash makes double-red harder on Slagstorm, because you have to build your manabase around basic island and the m10/inn duals that key off basic islands to have any kind of workable mana base, but I think there's enough filtering and draw to get there by the time you absolutely need it.
I posted this in another thread, but it seems like the discussion that I was looking for is happening here. Would like to get some feedback on this guy, as it seems to be going in a different direction than what a lot of folks are trying to do here.
This is a standard deck that I'm working on, once Dark Ascension is released. The basic idea is to use flashback, card draw advantage, and repeating low-cost threats in conjunction with Burning Vengeance and Falkenrath Aristocrat to control the board and go over the top. I've splashed green for Hunger of the Howlpack which should work very well with Delver/Snapcaster/Gravecrawler and the Aristocrat. The green also gives me fuel for a strong sideboard with Ancient Grudge, and the potential for a repeatable Ambush Viper.
I'm definitely open to ideas as it's a pretty theoretical deck, ATM. In particular, I'm betting that the mana-base could use some tweaking and love. Let me know what you think and how I might improve.
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:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
Part of your list's problem, and BV's problem oftentimes, is that there is a lack of potential variety to win conditions. It's burn or bust, but I don't think that it needs to be. Check out the list I posted on the page before. With repeatable beat-stick threats like Gravecrawler, sac-engines with built-in protection like Falkenrath Aristocrats, and a graveyard creature enabler like Havengul Lich to complement Snapcaster, I think BV can create a much broader scope of threats for enemies to have to be able to deal with.
If the mana-base can be fixed, I foresee this style of BV deck going further than the one-tricky pony route that it's gone in, in the past.
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:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
I'm very firmly in the splashing for green camp. There's alot of Tempered Steel around at one of the stores around here, and Ancient Grudge is backbreaking. It also lets me run a singleton Naturalize if I like, which is rarely dead entirely, or alternatively just run a few in the board. Mostly O-Ring is the only thing anyone will actually be playing that can interact with BV, so that seems good. The green splash makes double-red harder on Slagstorm, because you have to build your manabase around basic island and the m10/inn duals that key off basic islands to have any kind of workable mana base, but I think there's enough filtering and draw to get there by the time you absolutely need it.
I agree with you on the green splash. The mana actually works, and Ancient Grudge is awesome. I just haven't yet bothered post-DKA, and have been unable to test for pretty obvious reasons.
I posted this in another thread, but it seems like the discussion that I was looking for is happening here. Would like to get some feedback on this guy, as it seems to be going in a different direction than what a lot of folks are trying to do here.
Talk about a different direction.
Look, yours is the type of deck that is impossible to theorycraft. I am a heavily theorycrafting kind of deckbuilder, mostly because it is difficult for me to get the chance to playtest (living an hour from the LGS and with slightly paranoid parents). When I look at your deck, all my instinctive alarm bells go off in my head, screaming "CRAPPY JANK" at me. That, however, is not my final opinion.
Really, your list needs testing. Thorough testing. There are too many internal synergies I cannot account for. Havengul Lich, IMO ATM, is probably going to end up a being far too expensive for what it does, and 'dies to removal' in a practical sense will kill everyone's dreams of 3 Snapcasters a turn. The Falkenrath Nobles seem really janky. But, it's an effect we haven't seen before, so other than pointing out its vulnerability to Gut Shot and Geistflame, I can't give you any real practical feedback.
The other issue is I have no idea how Gravecrawler is likely to interact with BV and Secrets, and so while I have already quite sternly expressed my rather harsh opinion against Secrets, I will refrain from comment in this context, because Gravecrawler could throw half of what I was saying out the window.
I do, however, have a couple of concerns:
Delver of Secrets in a deck with 16 spells. Big problem here, and I think you can see why. You have a roughly (shut up any statistics buffs out there, this is rough :p) 1/4 chance of flipping Delver on a given turn. Therefore, you have a 75% chance of not flipping turn 2, a 56% chance of not flipping by turn 3, and a 42% chance of not flipping by turn 4. That Delver? He's gonna take a while. A loooong while.
Hunger of the Howlpack: No. Just... no.
No offence, but the card genuinely is utter garbage. I can see it being situationally okay, but first and foremost it fails Card Advantage 101, Why-auras-are-bad 101 and How-to-not-lose-tempo-and-hence-die-to-red 101. If the pumped guy dies, you lose two cards. Big problem. Not only that, but without Morbid on, the card turns absolutely terrible in about half a nanosecond.
Falkenrath Noble is a 4/1 flyer, that requires to you sacrifice creatures for him to be any good. For that, you either need a Snap or unflipped Delver, or a Gravecrawler. So essentially, you need a Gravecrawler. Gravecrawler doesn't even pump him! If it did, it might be a different story, but what appears to be one of the central interactions of your deck is very marginal. If the combo was likely to kill your opponent in a rapid fashion (eg. Token + Polymorph = Emrakul), or turn the game so far in your favour it is impossible to lose (Thopter + Sword), then I can see a two-card combo working quite nicely in combination with tutors. But as it stands, I personally don't think it's going to work.
That said, testing may reveal large quantities of egg on my face, so we'll have to wait and see.
Really, your concept has merit. I may be a naysayer, but go ahead and try to prove me wrong. And if it works, good for you.
Part of your list's problem, and BV's problem oftentimes, is that there is a lack of potential variety to win conditions. It's burn or bust, but I don't think that it needs to be. Check out the list I posted on the page before. With repeatable beat-stick threats like Gravecrawler, sac-engines with built-in protection like Falkenrath Aristocrats, and a graveyard creature enabler like Havengul Lich to complement Snapcaster, I think BV can create a much broader scope of threats for enemies to have to be able to deal with.
If the mana-base can be fixed, I foresee this style of BV deck going further than the one-tricky pony route that it's gone in, in the past.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, take a step back. Who says BV is a one-trick pony? Just because the list doesn't have creatures in it, doesn't mean it's not resilient. There's not much, short of Witchbane Orb, that actually shuts you down. You are still, in essence, a draw-go control deck that plans to play a very long and very deep game.
I think you're forgetting Devil's Play, which is the deck's most common win condition. Getting them down to 16 or so off incidental BV triggers/Snap damage is not hard, and so burning them for 8 twice becomes very easy. If they're not blue, they can't stop you. If they are, they died inside anyway when BV hit the table.
Also, how exactly is Gravecrawler a beatstick? It's a 2/1... that can't even chump-block.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I probably could've been more specific, because I certainly wasn't bashing the standard BV deck - I definitely like it. I am concerned about the current lack of multiple win conditions, because of the increased hate that's to come in the new set combined with the substantial amount of hate that already exists. Hence my attempt to take my ol' BV control in a more versatile direction.
Some counter-ideas in response to some great points that you brought up.
Trade out the Delvers for a playset of Reckless Waif? The Waif's not going to be swinging for three in the late game, but he'd still be useful as part of the sacrifice and recur engine. Other options that are also tricky are Avacyn's Pilgrim and Diregraf Ghoul.
I can easily add more burn or counter to replace the two slots of Hunger of the Howlpack.
As far as the Aristocrat goes, I feel pretty good about his place in the deck. He acts as a sacrifice engine to work alongside Gravecrawler, or with Havengul Lich and any of my humans (including Snapcaster Mage, which is fairly exciting). He also provides a continual threat with built in evasion and protection if the deck is working properly. He does hate Black Sun's Zenith, but card draw and the Lich should work to keep him on the board in the mid-to-late game.
Additionally, Swiftfoot Boots (perhaps alongside a couple of Glissas?) could go a long way in protecting the Lich and ensuring that the late game engine runs smoothly if the other threats have been dealt with.
I'm definitely going to test it and will inform as to what is working and what is not, but I'd still love more ideas and feedback.
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I posted this in another thread, but it seems like the discussion that I was looking for is happening here. Would like to get some feedback on this guy, as it seems to be going in a different direction than what a lot of folks are trying to do here.
Well, that's a 22 land deck that looks tempo-ish with the vapor snags, but doesn't have enough aggressive elements as built right now. And while you have alot of card advantage engines in there, the pump spell is still just begging to be blown out, since you have no way to trigger the full value early and by the time you do have that ability you are making your board state quite fragile.
I'm not really sure about the creatures in that list. The lich seems pretty bad. The vampire seems OK is you have a human out, but I'm not really sure that's what you want in this kind of deck. I have no idea when bringing back Gravecrawler would actually be relevant in your list against any of your likely opposition, but I doubt it's often. Also, if you're gonna go Delver, go 4 or go home. Commit. You're pulling in too many directions at once.
Like I was saying earlier in the thread, one of the great things about BV decks is that they blank the opponent's removal. You could play dudes in this deck, but they need to be dudes that you don't really care whether they live, like Snapcaster. It's the old Chapin dichotomy between Baneslayers and Mulldrifters.
You could get this thing into some kind of shape to test if you upped the arc trails to 4 immediately. Go 4 delvers. Take out the Liches. Lose the pump spell. Then maybe you're somewhere you can work from.
Yeah doom blade seems good vs solar flare/control but i really want the deck to just hose aggro in game one. But with that said i may need to make room for a tribute for geist. and make room in the board for doom blade. Thanks for the advice.
I probably could've been more specific, because I certainly wasn't bashing the standard BV deck - I definitely like it. I am concerned about the current lack of multiple win conditions, because of the increased hate that's to come in the new set combined with the substantial amount of hate that already exists. Hence my attempt to take my ol' BV control in a more versatile direction.
Sorry, I probably came out a bit defensive there. Fair enough, but Devil's Play is still pretty impervious to hate. Adding Delvers into the standard list adds another possible win condition, as would adding Consecrated Sphinx SB/Wurmcoil MD.
Some counter-ideas in response to some great points that you brought up.
Trade out the Delvers for a playset of Reckless Waif? The Waif's not going to be swinging for three in the late game, but he'd still be useful as part of the sacrifice and recur engine. Other options that are also tricky are Avacyn's Pilgrim and Diregraf Ghoul.
Reckless Waif is an extremely aggressive card. If you feel you can back the card up with appropriate pressure it could be okay.
As far as the Aristocrat goes, I feel pretty good about his place in the deck. He acts as a sacrifice engine to work alongside Gravecrawler, or with Havengul Lich and any of my humans (including Snapcaster Mage, which is fairly exciting). He also provides a continual threat with built in evasion and protection if the deck is working properly. He does hate Black Sun's Zenith, but card draw and the Lich should work to keep him on the board in the mid-to-late game.
If you feel it's worth it, go ahead: As I said, I haven't so much as goldfished your deck, and it could quite easily be an Olivia-esque sleeper card. It just feels like it would be awful without the Gravecrawler.
Additionally, Swiftfoot Boots (perhaps alongside a couple of Glissas?) could go a long way in protecting the Lich and ensuring that the late game engine runs smoothly if the other threats have been dealt with.
I'm definitely going to test it and will inform as to what is working and what is not, but I'd still love more ideas and feedback.
I don't like Swiftfoot Boots at all, because the effect it gives is so marginal IMO. To me, if you want Hexproof, you should be running Hexproof dudes in the first place. As I've said several times before, the fact you need both (in this case a specific creature plus the boots) in play to be good is asking for trouble.
Well, that's a 22 land deck that looks tempo-ish with the vapor snags, but doesn't have enough aggressive elements as built right now. And while you have alot of card advantage engines in there, the pump spell is still just begging to be blown out.
Yeah doom blade seems good vs solar flare/control but i really want the deck to just hose aggro in game one. But with that said i may need to make room for a tribute for geist. and make room in the board for doom blade. Thanks for the advice.
Doom Blade isn't for Solar Flare lol, it's for aggro. It's an all-around great removal spell that happens to not be dead against some control decks (it still sucks vs Wurmcoil and Grave Titan). I'd play Doom Blades MB, not SB, because they're meant to be generic. They are good against aggro, control (to an extent) AND Wolf Run.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
would they be at all useful? or is the effect just not enough
as for ratchet bomb, other than getting rid of tokens, its slow to do much else
Sever the Bloodline screams casual play to me, personally, until there is a really cohesive competitive tribal deck in the set. Now, that might happen in this set if folks are able to give Werewolves the tweak they need.
Ratchet Bomb is really only effective against tokens and flipped Werewolves, so it likes to live in a sideboard.
Silent Departure is decent, but the flashback cost is really high. I'd rather Snapcaster a dead Vapor Snag and deal an extra damage (and get a 2/1 body on the board) for one mana less than Silent Departure's flashback cost.
Now, I've gone ahead and adapted my deck based on some sound advice. I switched out the Delvers for Diregraf Ghouls to add a bit of tempo and support the relationship between Gravecrawler and Falkenrath Noble. Took out the pair of green pump spells to add an extra Arc Trail. I also replaced Desperate Ravings for Think Twice, to not risk losing a random card that I might want.
Any other thoughts? I'm not going to take out the Nobles or the Lichs until I get a chance to playtest this, since they're really the heart of the new concept.
would they be at all useful? or is the effect just not enough
as for ratchet bomb, other than getting rid of tokens, its slow to do much else
Sever the Bloodline is quite slow, but is a very effective out to Wurmcoil Engine. Unless that card is an issue, I dislike having answers targeted at just one or two cards, especially as Wurmcoil is very vulnerable to counterspells.
Silent Departure can be okay, but it has quite a high cost. You have to consider whether you'd play it if it had no flashback (ie. Vapor Snag). If you would, then go ahead. I personally wouldn't; I feel Doom Blade is all-around a better card in 90% of situations.
I disagree to an extent. Ratchet Bomb is also very good against weenie decks, in the same vein as Slagstorm and Whipflare. It can, however slowly, take out a stray Shrine of Burning Rage, and gives red some serious fits.
Sever the Bloodline screams casual play to me, personally, until there is a really cohesive competitive tribal deck in the set. Now, that might happen in this set if folks are able to give Werewolves the tweak they need.
Really? Casual? In the context of your deck...
Why is it good against tribal? It's an exiling Maelstrom Pulse... It's no better against two werewolves than one.
Ratchet Bomb is really only effective against tokens and flipped Werewolves, so it likes to live in a sideboard.
It also gives Red nightmares, and can kill anything up to 3CMC in an emergency. I like it as a colourless O-ring style catch-all, though it is much better aimed at tokens.
And thanks for reminding me about the Werewolf interaction, I'd completely forgotten about that.
Silent Departure is decent, but the flashback cost is really high. I'd rather Snapcaster a dead Vapor Snag and deal an extra damage (and get a 2/1 body on the board) for one mana less than Silent Departure's flashback cost.
I don't know about Snapping a Vapour Snag... While it's great tempo, I feel Snap is best used on a counterspell or occasionally a Doom Blade. I think that's more the power level of Snapcaster than a Snag vs Departure debate, though.
Now, I've gone ahead and adapted my deck based on some sound advice. I switched out the Delvers for Diregraf Ghouls to add a bit of tempo and support the relationship between Gravecrawler and Falkenrath Noble. Took out the pair of green pump spells to add an extra Arc Trail. I also replaced Desperate Ravings for Think Twice, to not risk losing a random card that I might want.
Diregraf Ghoul is a good idea! I approve.
Also, I just noticed that it makes Gravecrawler a ton better.
Any other thoughts? I'm not going to take out the Nobles or the Lichs until I get a chance to playtest this, since they're really the heart of the new concept.
I really think there isn't a whole lot I can offer until some good playtesting gets done.
What do ppl think about tribute to the hunger against dungrove and thrun ?? And possibility black sun ??
Tribute is old tech. It really depends on the metagame; people really shouldn't be running Wolf Run Green with a tokens/wolves/illusions/rdw meta. Thrun is a pain, but Image is really good against him. Just keep in mind that Tribute requires every other creature to be gone for it to work, and Wolf Run plays a fair few dorks as well as Simulacrums.
Black Sun's Zenith is way too slow IMO. Just play Phantasmal Image. You don't want BSZ against Wolf Run in 99% of cases, except to kill Thrun. Just focus on counterspells and Doom Blade effects, plus Images, and the matchup should be reasonable - they still have to stick a Titan or similar to win.
Wolf Run Green, on the other hand, is an awful matchup. You might as well concede when you sit down. There's not really much we can do there without getting butchered by aggro.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Vengeance's weakness is aggro, so we plan for it. Whipflare and Slagstorm should be a common sight among our deck lists.
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I played against a Vengeance deck today actually (meaning Sunday) and it absolutely rolled me over (my deck in sig). The dude used Shrine of Burning Rage in game two over the expected Delver of Secrets because it acted as a psudo Vengeance and went up just as fast as the RDW shrine because we use repeating/replacing red spells. I was stunned by the revelation.
Edit: The Shrine has added benefit because in game two they have no Artifact hate.
I played against a Vengeance deck today actually (meaning Sunday) and it absolutely rolled me over (my deck in sig). The dude used Shrine of Burning Rage in game two over the expected Delver of Secrets because it acted as a psudo Vengeance and went up just as fast as the RDW shrine because we use repeating/replacing red spells. I was stunned by the revelation.
Edit: The Shrine has added benefit because in game two they have no Artifact hate.
That's actually really old tech. It was meant against control, but it turned out to be abysmal. However, at the time nobody was using Delver and nobody was using Devil's Play.
Actually, Delver + Shrine would make an excellent combo because they back each other up as aggressive pressure. I never thought of using it against Wolf Run, but it could actually work as a G2 plan against non-aggro.
It really depends on whether you plan to be the control or the aggressor. If you want to be the aggressor, it will work well. Against control you're on the fence, and I prefer to play to BV's strengths in its lategame and board in Secrets of the Dead. But if you think an aggro plan will work for you, go ahead. It will make for a nice surprise actually, after they board out all their removal.
EDIT: Also consider that, unless you maindeck Delvers which rather ruins the surprise aspect, you will need 6-8 SB slots, which is a lot for a matchup like control/wolf run considering the metagame.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
@Jadencamelot:
Now, Flayer of the Hatebound is interesting. I'm not sure what it trumps in the current deck to demand a place, but it's essentially a 4/2 body that turns itself into a 5/3 body and fireballs for 5 when it dies. The only concern over it is it's casting cost in correlation with the rest of the deck, and the fact that it's really not adding any more damage recursion from the graveyard (for other creatures) than a Burning Vengeance. Is it worth adding a 6-drop spot that's not an Inferno Titan just for syngergy's sake?
And I was on crack about Sever the Bloodline versus tribal decks. I don't feel any differently about the card, except that it's just not likely to see very much standard play.
I also don't plan on keeping my flashback concept at just a casual level. Hence why I'm trying to work with you great folks on it here.
If you're able to splash green, Melira is a great answer for mono black infect. Shock works well too, to handle most of the pumpable threats. Phyrexian Crusader is a problem.
I think a lot of people looking into playing this deck will be well-served to realize that you will almost never be dropping your Burning Vengeance on turn three. Nine times out of ten that will be a very bad play. Once you accept that, you should see how this isn't a "fast" deck in the sense of winning in the first five or six turns (though it can be fast in the sense of doing 15-20 damage in only a turn or two late in the game). I think the deck functions better (at least with the cards we've seen so far) dropping Vengeance no earlier than turn five (when you can leave two mana open for a counter).
I realize this is old news for some of you, but I felt it had to be said.
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There are two main issues we have to fight: Nihil Spellbomb, and Oblivion Ring (other enchantment removal can only be fought by counters).
I was previously running 2-3 Ancient Grudge in the SB, but because we don't have an established metagame I decided not to branch into that area. I still do, however, always prefer to build my decks as a 75, not a 60.
Now in terms of a white splash, something I neglected to mention here was it has been seriously considered in the other thread. The cards splashed for included Sun Titan (to recur a dead/discarded Vengeance), Day of Judgment, Oblivion Ring and Feeling of Dread, among others. Some even went far enough as to cut black altogether, except for Alchemy.
Note that G2 removal is a different story. If they see no creatures G1, you can board in Revokers and they will board out all removal G2. I have even considered boarding in Delvers and/or Chandra's Phoenix G2, but it's not my style. You could also board in Wurmcoil/Elesh/Consecrated/etc G2.
Also note that you can play around Nihil Spellbomb in a similar fashion to dredge, or mass removal: you don't overcommit, and you force them to pull the trigger. Alternatively you can dump instants and threaten to flashback in response, and they'll realise they can only do it once and likely wait.
Even then, once they do blow up the bomb you can untap and Devil's Play them.
EDIT: Forgot to discuss O-ring. You can either kill the O-ring, or O-ring it yourself. To kill it you either have to play Naturalise in tandem with a G2 green splash (which you don't really want to do) or play white. Playing white still probably doesn't justify Ray, because 5 colours will be highly unstable, so you'd probably have to cut black and cut Doom Blade, which is again something you probably don't want to do. So the best option would be white for O-rings of your own, and hope that counters + drawing more of them will outdo your opponents O-rings.
Keep in mind the deck functions perfectly well without an active BV, short of killing them. It just gets unfair with an active BV. Also don't be afraid to flashback dig to survive if you don't have a BV. As long as you're alive, you can still come back and win, but if you're dead, it gets a bit more difficult.
EDIT 2: I don't have much time, but the short answer is that Orb is too slow IMO. It's only going to work if you're getting more advantage out of it than just anti-Nihil. Also note that you are paying 4 mana to kill a 1 mana artifact.
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
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Commander:
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Playing around the Spellbomb will be hard, that's a practiced skill and your opponent will never be the same twice. Though I understand the logic for it.
Vengeance go White!? I'm shocked... even a little appalled. When the deck idea was introduced awhile back (very pre-DKA spoilers) I thought the coolest part about the deck was that we didn't stall to land a traditional six plus CMC thing to overwhelm the opponent. Since our costs were low we could adjust our game to fit the opponent's speed; drop a Vengeance early if an aggro just needs some Shocks thrown at them, wait awhile and build card advantage if a control deck was threatening a long game. Adding the six CMC feels like betrayal. Day and O-Ring wouldn't be bad though, I don't see any other reasons for a White splash. Feeling of Dread? I don't think tempo is very good in a deck that intentionally draws out games for eight plus turns. Also, I hate playing White; whole other discussion...
I like the bait and switch with the Revoker and Delver, some sad faces in game two.
I want so badly to splash for Acidic Slime, but I don't think he adds anything. He has been a cure all for my other decks. Green in general doesn't really add anything to this deck unless it comes paired on the back side of Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation... Lame. Think one or two Grotto MB would make both playable while not shaking your mana base to hard? If you White splash then you can board two Ray and two Grudge and totally rip into decks using any A&E. - Remembered that you mentioned no solid Meta yet therefore no SB, we'll call it planning ahead.
Removing Black is a big step, just consider one card; Sever the Bloodline. How is this thing not played in Vengeance!? It answers token hordes, Wurmcoils and Sun Titan chains, not to mention any non-Hexproof creature! The thing has Flashback to do it again then proc Vengeance! (Note, that it is cheaper to flash back with a Snapcaster.) Not to mention Doom Blade is hard to forget, we can throw BSZ all day and not have an issue (which is better than Day, in both mine and Thrun's opinion). O-Ring... I... Well I already said I hate playing White.
"Reveal a Dragon"
How does it mess with Ray of Revelation? If they've killed our BV, we're screwed anyway and we can plan for the second copy with a counterspell. The green is fine, splashing 4-6 green sources worked perfectly well with Ancient Grudge. I just don't think the card is anywhere near good enough. Put it this way: would you play it if it didn't have flashback? I certainly wouldn't, and that means it's mostly terrible and situationally marginal.
Well, what you think is cool about a deck doesn't make it win any more games. TBF, almost all of the original lists (before I proposed creatureless with Sorin's Vengeance; ah, those were the days :D) ran some kind of creature package, most commonly Wurmcoil Engines.
Feeling of Dread shouldn't be considered tempo per se. It should be considered something to keep you alive versus aggro, that also has flashback for BV. It's great against red, it's great against Illusions, and you can only run 4 Slagstorms.
Whoa, speaking of which, WE'RE NOT PLAYING RATCHET BOMB! I cannot believe I hadn't thought of that! Geez, that has colossal potential!
1) It kills artifacts (Shrines, particularly).
2) It kills O-ring.
3) It kills tokens.
4) It makes red cry.
5) It's Slagstorm 5-7.
6) It only costs 2 mana!
7) It kills Tempered Steel (both the card and the deck)
8) It kills Nihil Spellbomb!
WOW. Massive eureka moment.
Acidic Slime is not going to help for two reasons: 1) It costs 5, and 2) it can't come back with Snapcaster (and therefore has zero synergy with BV). Not only that, but 3GG means your manabase is going to have to warp a lot.
1-2 Grotto is fine. I don't want to build your manabase for you. I personally wouldn't bother unless you have 4+ colours in your deck though, the 3 colour mana is really consistent ATM.
What's A&E?
Sever was in my original decklist on page 3 of the old thread. The problem is, it's a bad Doom Blade except against 1) Wurmcoil and 2) 3+ tokens. The 5BB to flash it back is pretty harsh too, and also forces you to run 8-9 black duals, which can potentially conflict if you planned to splash green.
EDIT: And Ratchet Bomb kills tokens.
EDIT 2: Updated decklist.
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Faithless Looting
4 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Geistflame
1 Arc Trail
2 Doom Blade
3 Slagstorm
2 Devil's Play
2 Dissipate
2 Pristine Talisman
4 Mountain
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Drowned Catacomb
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Island
3 Secrets of the Dead
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Dissipate
1 Slagstorm
1 Geistflame
1 Arc Trail
1 Doom Blade
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Slagstorm
1 Geistflame
1 Arc Trail
1 Doom Blade
1 Devil's Play
Note that I really want to find more room in the board for Dissipates (they go in both against Control and Wolf Run), I just can't find room ATM. I'll have to work on it.EDIT 3: Wait, Wolf Run is probably going to be a smaller part of the metagame because of Sorin 2.0, so I think I will swap the Flashfreezes for Dissipates. Doom Blade comes in against them anyway. Nobody in their right mind is gonna be playing Wolf Run Green (that thing is a nightmare), so Dissipate pretty much equals Flashfreeze anyway when you're not worried about turn 2 Dungrove Elder.
Domain Zoo
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Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
I have no intention of adding Acidic Slime to the deck, lol, it has just been in 100% of my standard decks since Innistrad (Mono-Green, WR-Green, Jund Run). It was a nice segue into justifying Ray and Grudge. At any rate, I'll probably have two Grotto in the mana base when I find time to build something.
I still like Sever. If Wolf Run becomes less popular and tokens become more popular, then aren't we going to see more uses for this card? Control loves Wurmcoil, and Solar Flare is still scary (my area runs the Sun Titan chains that often copy Rune-Scared once a turn).
Ratchet bomb does not kill Nihil; well... it does, but they can just respond to it and remove our yard anyway. Maybe your point being that we can force them to pop it early?
A&E is Artifacts and Enchantments.
You have 3 Secrets of the Dead in your sideboard; I know the discussion about main boarding them has taken place, but you ended it by saying something along the lines of "any more than two is wrong and only if you run them at all".Edit: I found the post, little different than I thought.
I'd still say cut one Secrets. Two of's shouldn't be to hard to find in this deck.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Also, can someone please try and persuade me as to why I should be playing Faithless Looting in a DrawGo deck that never wants to play anything on its own turn? I understand the filtering ability is powerful, but I find the sorcery speed off putting.
But the thing you're missing is that it is card disadvantage. Even if it was Noxious Revival we were talking about, you are guaranteed to get your BV. Memory's Journey shuffles it in. You are spending a card, to have a possible chance of drawing it again. Possible. You still have to spend that draw step drawing the card, which you would receive anyway, yet you lost a card from your hand. Card Advantage 101.
And forget saving cards from Nihil. That is totally unimportant. There is a reason you have redundancy in the deck. You should never have to save anything from Nihil. What is important is that you are still able to kill your opponent. Even if you have 4 BV and 2 Devil's Play in the yard, you can still win with Snapcasters (assuming they're not on 20). The card is far too situational.
If tokens become more popular, then it becomes a bad Slagstorm. I fail to see how it fights tokens better than Ratchet Bomb.
Yes, control loves Wurmcoil, and that is a known weakness of the deck. However, you still have Mana Leaks, you still have Dissipates, and I certainly wouldn't argue with you including a few copies of Sever if it's popular in your meta.
Note that you have Doom Blades to kill their Sun Titan, and if they resolve a 6-drop your counterspells are not doing their job.
My point was that you should not overextend in the first place. Treat it like playing an aggro deck in the face of a known Wrath.
You're coming at it from the wrong angle. Against control, you want as many enchantments in play as possible. Card advantage is everything, so Burning Vengeance is backbreaking once it hits, unless they can deal with it - let alone Secrets of the Dead. There are two particular points I want to stress:
1) You want as many enchantments in play as possible at any given point. If you have two BV/Secrets in play, it's literally twice as good. Keep in mind that the triggers are uncounterable, so if you land Secrets + BV or 2x Secrets, they flat-out lose the game. They might as well concede.
2) Your opponent is still your opponent: they are going to be doing everything in their power to stop you resolving a BV/Secrets. Your job is simply to land one and ride it to victory. If you have 8 of them, your job becomes so much easier, simply because when they win the first counterwar or two, you can just drop another. (and they probably will, because 1) you tapped 3 mana first and 2) they likely run more counters G2).
Also keep in mind that the more copies you have in play, the harder it is for your opponent to kill them all. Also note that Surgical Extraction on one of them hurts a lot less when you have 4 of both.
The control mirror is very different to any other matchup, and should be approached as such. The games will go very long, and so any possible incremental advantage should be pushed as much as possible.
But how often 'should' you be digging for a BV? The priority against aggro is speed in your answers, just to keep up. Dropping a 3 mana do-nothing enchantment early in the game is suicide, even if the card is BV - it is often better to hold your BV against fast aggro. BV, in many situations, takes too long to make up for itself - you need to flashback at least twice, and the price you pay in the meantime is the damage you take from the creatures that should have been dead two turns ago.
Secrets of the Dead is the same, but worse - after you flashback twice, you still haven killed any more creatures! You're basically dead at this point, as all the aggro decks in the format are more than capable of goldfishing turn 5, or putting you on a very precarious life total.
Even when you drop it lategame, after two flashbacks it becomes a very slow Divination - you really need to flashback three times for it to be worth it. Not only this, you really have to cut your card draw for it. You can't cut removal or answers, because that is severely compromising your early game against aggro and it does not represent the cards true purpose.
That said, I think it can be very powerful in some situations, and I am open to a 1-2 of maindeck. But as the deck stands, with the current spoiled cards as they are, Secrets of the Dead is best served as an occasionally good card that happens to practically autowin game 2 against control.
Okay, here goes:
1) It costs just one mana, making it extremely easy to cast. (Most important point)
2) You mostly don't want to flash spells back until late when you have an active BV, at which point 3 mana mainphase is likely irrelevant (you still have 4-5 mana left)
3) It finds lands early, and it finds answers early. It functions like a Preordain.
4) Unlike Ravings, you can cast it at almost any point, and it's very obvious when you can and cannot - Ravings can easily be a reverse blowout.
5) The deck does have to play spells on its own turn; it's not entirely Draw-go. BV/Secrets, Looting ;), Pristine Talisman and Devil's Play are all sorcery speed, as are O-ring and Sever.
6) The last thing you want to do is mainphase a Ravings to find land. This is more common than you think in a deck that runs 24 land but really wants to have the land drops of a 27 land deck. The two mana vs one mana does make a big difference, and Ravings also forces you to risk key cards in your hand, while Looting does not.
6a) Looting also does not pose the risk of drawing a land, then immediately discarding it. This has happened to me a number of times, and I can tell you it's bloody annoying.
I'll say it again: it costs ONE MANA.
That is the key that makes it so good.
EDIT: Also, you can dump stuff appropriately based on each matchup. Against aggro, you dump all your draw for later use, especially Think Twice. Against control, you get to dump your dead removal spells, which BTW is another huge point in Looting's favour.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Blanking their removal is the sweetest thing about this deck IMHO. I like the Delver board plan against control and ramp, since they are likely to have boarded out most of the removal and you can just catch them off guard. Obviously, it depends on what level you think your opponent is thinking at, their skill level and awareness and such. Even if you guess wrong, it's an easy plan against control since your Geistflames are dead against them and you can board in the Delvers basically for free.
I'm very firmly in the splashing for green camp. There's alot of Tempered Steel around at one of the stores around here, and Ancient Grudge is backbreaking. It also lets me run a singleton Naturalize if I like, which is rarely dead entirely, or alternatively just run a few in the board. Mostly O-Ring is the only thing anyone will actually be playing that can interact with BV, so that seems good. The green splash makes double-red harder on Slagstorm, because you have to build your manabase around basic island and the m10/inn duals that key off basic islands to have any kind of workable mana base, but I think there's enough filtering and draw to get there by the time you absolutely need it.
:symr::symg:Aggro Werewolves:symg::symr:
:symb:Black Deck Wins
Modern
Faeries
:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
Commander
Lovisa Coldeyes
:symb::symu::symg:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb:
4 Faithless Looting
4 Think Twice
3 Forbidden Alchemy
4 Mana leak
2 Dissapate
1 Druidic Satchel
4 Geistflame
2 Devil's Play
3 Slagstorm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Shimmering Grotto
2 Hinterland Harbor
2 Dragonskull Summit
8 Mountain
7 Island
Sideboard(Not sure exactly)
3 Flashfreeze
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Secrets of the Dead
2 Ratchet Bomb
Mainboard Ancient Grudge for the new Pike lists i'm sure i will be seeing.
If the mana-base can be fixed, I foresee this style of BV deck going further than the one-tricky pony route that it's gone in, in the past.
:symr::symg:Aggro Werewolves:symg::symr:
:symb:Black Deck Wins
Modern
Faeries
:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
Commander
Lovisa Coldeyes
:symb::symu::symg:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb:
Not this again.
Try using the search function, or try bothering to look at some of the posts on that same page.
I agree with you on the green splash. The mana actually works, and Ancient Grudge is awesome. I just haven't yet bothered post-DKA, and have been unable to test for pretty obvious reasons.
Talk about a different direction.
Look, yours is the type of deck that is impossible to theorycraft. I am a heavily theorycrafting kind of deckbuilder, mostly because it is difficult for me to get the chance to playtest (living an hour from the LGS and with slightly paranoid parents). When I look at your deck, all my instinctive alarm bells go off in my head, screaming "CRAPPY JANK" at me. That, however, is not my final opinion.
Really, your list needs testing. Thorough testing. There are too many internal synergies I cannot account for. Havengul Lich, IMO ATM, is probably going to end up a being far too expensive for what it does, and 'dies to removal' in a practical sense will kill everyone's dreams of 3 Snapcasters a turn. The Falkenrath Nobles seem really janky. But, it's an effect we haven't seen before, so other than pointing out its vulnerability to Gut Shot and Geistflame, I can't give you any real practical feedback.
The other issue is I have no idea how Gravecrawler is likely to interact with BV and Secrets, and so while I have already quite sternly expressed my rather harsh opinion against Secrets, I will refrain from comment in this context, because Gravecrawler could throw half of what I was saying out the window.
I do, however, have a couple of concerns:
Delver of Secrets in a deck with 16 spells. Big problem here, and I think you can see why. You have a roughly (shut up any statistics buffs out there, this is rough :p) 1/4 chance of flipping Delver on a given turn. Therefore, you have a 75% chance of not flipping turn 2, a 56% chance of not flipping by turn 3, and a 42% chance of not flipping by turn 4. That Delver? He's gonna take a while. A loooong while.
Hunger of the Howlpack: No. Just... no.
No offence, but the card genuinely is utter garbage. I can see it being situationally okay, but first and foremost it fails Card Advantage 101, Why-auras-are-bad 101 and How-to-not-lose-tempo-and-hence-die-to-red 101. If the pumped guy dies, you lose two cards. Big problem. Not only that, but without Morbid on, the card turns absolutely terrible in about half a nanosecond.
Falkenrath Noble is a 4/1 flyer, that requires to you sacrifice creatures for him to be any good. For that, you either need a Snap or unflipped Delver, or a Gravecrawler. So essentially, you need a Gravecrawler. Gravecrawler doesn't even pump him! If it did, it might be a different story, but what appears to be one of the central interactions of your deck is very marginal. If the combo was likely to kill your opponent in a rapid fashion (eg. Token + Polymorph = Emrakul), or turn the game so far in your favour it is impossible to lose (Thopter + Sword), then I can see a two-card combo working quite nicely in combination with tutors. But as it stands, I personally don't think it's going to work.
That said, testing may reveal large quantities of egg on my face, so we'll have to wait and see.
Really, your concept has merit. I may be a naysayer, but go ahead and try to prove me wrong. And if it works, good for you.
Very nice list. I like it. My only slight concern is lack of Doom Blades for any resolved fat guys.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, take a step back. Who says BV is a one-trick pony? Just because the list doesn't have creatures in it, doesn't mean it's not resilient. There's not much, short of Witchbane Orb, that actually shuts you down. You are still, in essence, a draw-go control deck that plans to play a very long and very deep game.
I think you're forgetting Devil's Play, which is the deck's most common win condition. Getting them down to 16 or so off incidental BV triggers/Snap damage is not hard, and so burning them for 8 twice becomes very easy. If they're not blue, they can't stop you. If they are, they died inside anyway when BV hit the table.
Also, how exactly is Gravecrawler a beatstick? It's a 2/1... that can't even chump-block.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Some counter-ideas in response to some great points that you brought up.
Trade out the Delvers for a playset of Reckless Waif? The Waif's not going to be swinging for three in the late game, but he'd still be useful as part of the sacrifice and recur engine. Other options that are also tricky are Avacyn's Pilgrim and Diregraf Ghoul.
I can easily add more burn or counter to replace the two slots of Hunger of the Howlpack.
As far as the Aristocrat goes, I feel pretty good about his place in the deck. He acts as a sacrifice engine to work alongside Gravecrawler, or with Havengul Lich and any of my humans (including Snapcaster Mage, which is fairly exciting). He also provides a continual threat with built in evasion and protection if the deck is working properly. He does hate Black Sun's Zenith, but card draw and the Lich should work to keep him on the board in the mid-to-late game.
Additionally, Swiftfoot Boots (perhaps alongside a couple of Glissas?) could go a long way in protecting the Lich and ensuring that the late game engine runs smoothly if the other threats have been dealt with.
I'm definitely going to test it and will inform as to what is working and what is not, but I'd still love more ideas and feedback.
:symr::symg:Aggro Werewolves:symg::symr:
:symb:Black Deck Wins
Modern
Faeries
:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
Commander
Lovisa Coldeyes
:symb::symu::symg:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb:
Well, that's a 22 land deck that looks tempo-ish with the vapor snags, but doesn't have enough aggressive elements as built right now. And while you have alot of card advantage engines in there, the pump spell is still just begging to be blown out, since you have no way to trigger the full value early and by the time you do have that ability you are making your board state quite fragile.
I'm not really sure about the creatures in that list. The lich seems pretty bad. The vampire seems OK is you have a human out, but I'm not really sure that's what you want in this kind of deck. I have no idea when bringing back Gravecrawler would actually be relevant in your list against any of your likely opposition, but I doubt it's often. Also, if you're gonna go Delver, go 4 or go home. Commit. You're pulling in too many directions at once.
Like I was saying earlier in the thread, one of the great things about BV decks is that they blank the opponent's removal. You could play dudes in this deck, but they need to be dudes that you don't really care whether they live, like Snapcaster. It's the old Chapin dichotomy between Baneslayers and Mulldrifters.
You could get this thing into some kind of shape to test if you upped the arc trails to 4 immediately. Go 4 delvers. Take out the Liches. Lose the pump spell. Then maybe you're somewhere you can work from.
Sorry, I probably came out a bit defensive there. Fair enough, but Devil's Play is still pretty impervious to hate. Adding Delvers into the standard list adds another possible win condition, as would adding Consecrated Sphinx SB/Wurmcoil MD.
Reckless Waif is an extremely aggressive card. If you feel you can back the card up with appropriate pressure it could be okay.
Yes, please do.
If you feel it's worth it, go ahead: As I said, I haven't so much as goldfished your deck, and it could quite easily be an Olivia-esque sleeper card. It just feels like it would be awful without the Gravecrawler.
I don't like Swiftfoot Boots at all, because the effect it gives is so marginal IMO. To me, if you want Hexproof, you should be running Hexproof dudes in the first place. As I've said several times before, the fact you need both (in this case a specific creature plus the boots) in play to be good is asking for trouble.
QFT.
Doom Blade isn't for Solar Flare lol, it's for aggro. It's an all-around great removal spell that happens to not be dead against some control decks (it still sucks vs Wurmcoil and Grave Titan). I'd play Doom Blades MB, not SB, because they're meant to be generic. They are good against aggro, control (to an extent) AND Wolf Run.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Sever the Bloodline screams casual play to me, personally, until there is a really cohesive competitive tribal deck in the set. Now, that might happen in this set if folks are able to give Werewolves the tweak they need.
Ratchet Bomb is really only effective against tokens and flipped Werewolves, so it likes to live in a sideboard.
Silent Departure is decent, but the flashback cost is really high. I'd rather Snapcaster a dead Vapor Snag and deal an extra damage (and get a 2/1 body on the board) for one mana less than Silent Departure's flashback cost.
Now, I've gone ahead and adapted my deck based on some sound advice. I switched out the Delvers for Diregraf Ghouls to add a bit of tempo and support the relationship between Gravecrawler and Falkenrath Noble. Took out the pair of green pump spells to add an extra Arc Trail. I also replaced Desperate Ravings for Think Twice, to not risk losing a random card that I might want.
Any other thoughts? I'm not going to take out the Nobles or the Lichs until I get a chance to playtest this, since they're really the heart of the new concept.
:symr::symg:Aggro Werewolves:symg::symr:
:symb:Black Deck Wins
Modern
Faeries
:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
Commander
Lovisa Coldeyes
:symb::symu::symg:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb:
Sever the Bloodline is quite slow, but is a very effective out to Wurmcoil Engine. Unless that card is an issue, I dislike having answers targeted at just one or two cards, especially as Wurmcoil is very vulnerable to counterspells.
Silent Departure can be okay, but it has quite a high cost. You have to consider whether you'd play it if it had no flashback (ie. Vapor Snag). If you would, then go ahead. I personally wouldn't; I feel Doom Blade is all-around a better card in 90% of situations.
I disagree to an extent. Ratchet Bomb is also very good against weenie decks, in the same vein as Slagstorm and Whipflare. It can, however slowly, take out a stray Shrine of Burning Rage, and gives red some serious fits.
Really? Casual? In the context of your deck...
Why is it good against tribal? It's an exiling Maelstrom Pulse... It's no better against two werewolves than one.
It also gives Red nightmares, and can kill anything up to 3CMC in an emergency. I like it as a colourless O-ring style catch-all, though it is much better aimed at tokens.
And thanks for reminding me about the Werewolf interaction, I'd completely forgotten about that.
I don't know about Snapping a Vapour Snag... While it's great tempo, I feel Snap is best used on a counterspell or occasionally a Doom Blade. I think that's more the power level of Snapcaster than a Snag vs Departure debate, though.
Diregraf Ghoul is a good idea! I approve.
Also, I just noticed that it makes Gravecrawler a ton better.
I really think there isn't a whole lot I can offer until some good playtesting gets done.
Tribute is old tech. It really depends on the metagame; people really shouldn't be running Wolf Run Green with a tokens/wolves/illusions/rdw meta. Thrun is a pain, but Image is really good against him. Just keep in mind that Tribute requires every other creature to be gone for it to work, and Wolf Run plays a fair few dorks as well as Simulacrums.
Black Sun's Zenith is way too slow IMO. Just play Phantasmal Image. You don't want BSZ against Wolf Run in 99% of cases, except to kill Thrun. Just focus on counterspells and Doom Blade effects, plus Images, and the matchup should be reasonable - they still have to stick a Titan or similar to win.
Wolf Run Green, on the other hand, is an awful matchup. You might as well concede when you sit down. There's not really much we can do there without getting butchered by aggro.
EDIT: @Donathin:
Yeah, okay, shut up. -.-
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Vengeance's weakness is aggro, so we plan for it. Whipflare and Slagstorm should be a common sight among our deck lists.
__________________
I played against a Vengeance deck today actually (meaning Sunday) and it absolutely rolled me over (my deck in sig). The dude used Shrine of Burning Rage in game two over the expected Delver of Secrets because it acted as a psudo Vengeance and went up just as fast as the RDW shrine because we use repeating/replacing red spells. I was stunned by the revelation.
Edit: The Shrine has added benefit because in game two they have no Artifact hate.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Not really, no. Every deck has its weaknesses.
That's actually really old tech. It was meant against control, but it turned out to be abysmal. However, at the time nobody was using Delver and nobody was using Devil's Play.
Actually, Delver + Shrine would make an excellent combo because they back each other up as aggressive pressure. I never thought of using it against Wolf Run, but it could actually work as a G2 plan against non-aggro.
It really depends on whether you plan to be the control or the aggressor. If you want to be the aggressor, it will work well. Against control you're on the fence, and I prefer to play to BV's strengths in its lategame and board in Secrets of the Dead. But if you think an aggro plan will work for you, go ahead. It will make for a nice surprise actually, after they board out all their removal.
EDIT: Also consider that, unless you maindeck Delvers which rather ruins the surprise aspect, you will need 6-8 SB slots, which is a lot for a matchup like control/wolf run considering the metagame.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Now, Flayer of the Hatebound is interesting. I'm not sure what it trumps in the current deck to demand a place, but it's essentially a 4/2 body that turns itself into a 5/3 body and fireballs for 5 when it dies. The only concern over it is it's casting cost in correlation with the rest of the deck, and the fact that it's really not adding any more damage recursion from the graveyard (for other creatures) than a Burning Vengeance. Is it worth adding a 6-drop spot that's not an Inferno Titan just for syngergy's sake?
And I was on crack about Sever the Bloodline versus tribal decks. I don't feel any differently about the card, except that it's just not likely to see very much standard play.
I also don't plan on keeping my flashback concept at just a casual level. Hence why I'm trying to work with you great folks on it here.
If you're able to splash green, Melira is a great answer for mono black infect. Shock works well too, to handle most of the pumpable threats. Phyrexian Crusader is a problem.
:symr::symg:Aggro Werewolves:symg::symr:
:symb:Black Deck Wins
Modern
Faeries
:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
Commander
Lovisa Coldeyes
:symb::symu::symg:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb:
I realize this is old news for some of you, but I felt it had to be said.