Thought Scour looks pretty good but I'm not sure if it should be used in bv.
I definitely think that Thought Scour is most effective in BV Control. For one blue, you're getting huge card advantage in a deck where most of the cards you'd mill into your graveyard are going to have flashback - plus it lets you draw a card. It'd be even better in the late game, after BV is already down and you have a Snapcaster in-hand.
I also think that BV control's best answer for Cage at a competitive level is going to be more effective draw so that you can carry less draw and more counters - as well as a 4ofCrush in your sideboard. Crush is the only answer to Cage that doesn't set you back in tempo.
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As a complete joke you could add 4 Cancel and really mess with your opponent.
On a serious note; I think you should add 2-3 lands. You can afford this because you will pitch them to Looting and Ravings and not feel like you might get land screwed. Basically a hand of 4-5 lands+Ravings reads "draw 2" since you will probably discard 2 lands (luck provided).
Maybe a singleton card that can just stand alone? Wurmcoil, Frost Titan, Inferno Titan, Sphinx?
And you could use some other cheap removal. You have 4 Snapcasters, but no real targets for them other than counters and Slagstorm. If you added a couple Incinerate or something you'd be golden. -2 Dissipate, +2 Incinerate?
I've been thinking about singletons also. So 8 counters with Snapcaster really is too much? I'll add the land and some burn to the face. Board 1 of the Dissipates and add a Wurmcoil I guess. If I had to choose any of the "Titans", it'd be him.I like Frost, but I'd rather take something that would definitely keep me in the game longer. I was thinking about a Karn too.
Thought Scour looks like it'll be cool. I'll pick up a playset to mess around with after release. Can't really hurt to try it out.
I've been thinking about singletons also. So 8 counters with Snapcaster really is too much? I'll add the land and some burn to the face. Board 1 of the Dissipates and add a Wurmcoil I guess. If I had to choose any of the "Titans", it'd be him.I like Frost, but I'd rather take something that would definitely keep me in the game longer. I was thinking about a Karn too.
Thought Scour looks like it'll be cool. I'll pick up a playset to mess around with after release. Can't really hurt to try it out.
I think that Inferno Titan is your nut six drop here, because it's going to come in and immediately be able to slow down any board control your opponent's managed to gain. Since aggro is the toughest matchup for this deck, that's what you want a Singleton to answer, IMO.
I like Thought Scour a lot for this deck. It needs Snapcaster, which is it's downside, but it gives you the most card advantage for the least cost of any card out there.
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Cage + Nihil's Spellbomb pretty much means that if this deck gains any kind of traction (and not just this deck, but any graveyard deck), then there is way too much hate to deal with it. Yeah, you can sideboard in Ancient Grudge, but consider the hate's advantage:
- Spellbomb can go off in response to your Ancient Grudge, removing your current graveyard no matter what.
- To get the full effect of Ancient Grudge, you have to now splash green.
- If you Grudge a Spellbomb or Cage and they lay down another Cage, then you can't even flashback your Grudge from the graveyard to deal with it.
- Cage and Spellbomb are both one-drops. Being out-tempo'd by hate against your deck's main mechanic usually means that you lose.
I hate to say it, but unless there's another surprise card reveal that sends Flashback over the edge, it would seem that this deck will never be competitive. Sorry boys. And I was getting pretty excited about my off-branch design too.
Guys, have you ever wondered how Dredge beats hate? It's the same way aggro beats wraths - by NOT OVEREXTENDING. If they have a Nihil, then don't dump 2x Think Twice off your Looting - wait. You will always find more flashback stuff after a Nihil, and you don't even need it to win. Burning Vengeance is simply an engine, but you should function perfectly well without it.
Actually, as a test, try removing BV from your deck and try out the remaining 56 cards (perhaps take out a land). You should still be able to function reasonably as a regular control deck. If you can't, there's an issue with your list.
Note that you won't have the same late-game dominance, but the test is more about surviving against aggro until that point where BV takes over completely. Obviously (in a normal RL match) in the lategame you're going to have to kill a Cage/deal with Nihil, but you should have drawn enough cards that you have an answer, and have at least one counterspell to deal with a second copy.
I think that Inferno Titan is your nut six drop here, because it's going to come in and immediately be able to slow down any board control your opponent's managed to gain. Since aggro is the toughest matchup for this deck, that's what you want a Singleton to answer, IMO.
I like Thought Scour a lot for this deck. It needs Snapcaster, which is it's downside, but it gives you the most card advantage for the least cost of any card out there.
I highly disagree about Thought Scour. The problem is that with less than 25% cards with flashback in your deck, you have a roughly 50/50 chance of flipping one card with flashback. It basically turns into a one-mana cantrip with no effect.
Inferno Titan is very good, but so is Wurmcoil. They both destroy aggro. The difference, however, is that Wurmcoil is so difficult to remove, and it functions much better against red aggro. Inferno Titan will be better in a token + O-ring metagame though. Really it should be a meta choice.
I've been thinking about singletons also. So 8 counters with Snapcaster really is too much? I'll add the land and some burn to the face. Board 1 of the Dissipates and add a Wurmcoil I guess. If I had to choose any of the "Titans", it'd be him.I like Frost, but I'd rather take something that would definitely keep me in the game longer. I was thinking about a Karn too.
Thought Scour looks like it'll be cool. I'll pick up a playset to mess around with after release. Can't really hurt to try it out.
I normally play 6 counters + 3 Snapcasters, I've found that works well for me.
Between the titans, it could either be Wurmcoil, Inferno or Consecrated Sphinx. Wurmcoil is best when your opponent is packing non-exiling removal, Inferno is better against weenie/token/illusions strategies, and Sphinx is better against Wolf Run/Control or when they board out all their removal game 2 after seeing no creatures.
That's a very interesting take. A big concern I'd have is the lack of reccuring damage sources (ie. creatures); a few Chandra's Phoenix can go a long way. I'd also add a few copies of a finisher, either Wurmcoil or Inferno Titan.
I definitely think that Thought Scour is most effective in BV Control. For one blue, you're getting huge card advantage in a deck where most of the cards you'd mill into your graveyard are going to have flashback - plus it lets you draw a card. It'd be even better in the late game, after BV is already down and you have a Snapcaster in-hand.
I also think that BV control's best answer for Cage at a competitive level is going to be more effective draw so that you can carry less draw and more counters - as well as a 4ofCrush in your sideboard. Crush is the only answer to Cage that doesn't set you back in tempo.
I highly disagree about Thought Scour. The problem is that with less than 25% cards with flashback in your deck, you have a roughly 50/50 chance of flipping one card with flashback. It basically turns into a one-mana cantrip with no effect.
Crush is a good point. Good thinking! As long as Tempered Steel doesn't come back, that is. Ancient Grudge is also better if they have other artifacts, like swords.
As a complete joke you could add 4 Cancel and really mess with your opponent.
On a serious note; I think you should add 2-3 lands. You can afford this because you will pitch them to Looting and Ravings and not feel like you might get land screwed. Basically a hand of 4-5 lands+Ravings reads "draw 2" since you will probably discard 2 lands (luck provided).
Maybe a singleton card that can just stand alone? Wurmcoil, Frost Titan, Inferno Titan, Sphinx?
And you could use some other cheap removal. You have 4 Snapcasters, but no real targets for them other than counters and Slagstorm. If you added a couple Incinerate or something you'd be golden. -2 Dissipate, +2 Incinerate?
You can equally advise adding lands as cutting them - you can just draw the lands off Looting and discard nonland cards. The trouble with adding lands is you have to cut other cards, and so it depends on the decklist. You're right though, 25-26 lands wouldn't hurt though.
Arc Trail will work quite well in the expected tokens meta, as will Galvanic Blast. I used to run Doom Blade but it remains to be seen how effective it will be post-DKA. I'm not sure I can recommend Incinerate simply because we aren't looking for the burn to the face (unlike aggro Delver builds); I would pick Doom Blade, Arc Trail or Galvanic Blast over it.
So I like playing control and I want to give this deck a try. I was interested before the spoiler, but Faithless Looting really made me want to go with it.
I know I'm heavy on the counters, but with some of the new stuff coming out I wanna make sure to stop it! I'm not sure on the 24 mana either, but people say I need it so. I have 4 slots left and don't know what to do. Twelve counters (4 Snapcaster) may seem overkill, but I wanna play draw go. I was thinking about Forbidden Alchemy, but I'll just keep Desperate Ravings over it. I want to side Delvers instead of main them as a surprise. More Mountains than Islands because of Faithless Looting. Help meh.
12 counters is rather overkill. I would at most run 10-11, I prefer 9 in my build (3 Snap and 2 Dissipate). For the remaining slots you really need creature removal.
Mental misstep seems like a decent choice, right? I mean if it's a useless card in hand just discard with looting.
Also that artifact counter/bounce seems like it could help here also. While crush/ancient grudge seem like the best answer we have so far. Either way, that cage is a great card by itself and no doubt will help trinket mage gain traction. Might even see it as a one of MB.
Do you mean Misstep MD or SB? SB it could work against decks like red, but I'd be more concerned about BW Tokens at this point in terms of sideboard considerations.
What's the point of bouncing Nihil/Cage? O.o You'd have to counter it for the card to be effective, which isn't likely at all to happen.
These new cards are getting really frustrating. Ray of Revelation, Thalia, the undying mechanic, this Cage artifact. Why doesn't Wizards just come right out and ban all non-land, non-creature cards?
Sure, we can play Ancient Grudge against the cage, but that's one less time we can use Ancient Grudge against Nihil Spellbomb. And then there's all the other stuff to deal with like Grand Abolisher, Thalia, all the undying creatures, etc. And each time we need to deal with one of them, that's less resources we have available to deal with another.
While the Cage doesn't by itself make me think Burning Vengeance is doomed, it's just one more card added to the already large pile of cards that stands in the way of Burning Vengeance being viable. Right now I'd say things are looking pretty grim (though I'd love to be proved wrong).
Why are they using both Nihil and Cage? And even if they are, they'd be splitting a playset. Note that Ancient Grudge can kill the Cage now, and kill a Nihil out of the bin later (to force them to crack it before you dump more flashback in).
Thalia won't see much play because white now plays too many noncreature spells. It would be an SB option in a T2 mono-white weenie deck, but not something mainstream like BW Tokens.
Grand Abolisher isn't that bad; it's just another 2/2 that temporarily locks out our counterspells - we have ample ways to kill it, and we're mostly focused on countering the T4 Sorin. Everything else can be dealt with easily.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Well, for me personally, I'm probably going to sideboard 3xAncient Grudge and 2xCrush, and then hope that this deck gets overlooked and I can just statistically overwhelm any hateful sideboards. But I'm trying to build the U/R/B Tempo version of the old deck.
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Actually, as a test, try removing BV from your deck and try out the remaining 56 cards (perhaps take out a land). You should still be able to function reasonably as a regular control deck. If you can't, there's an issue with your list.
Tried this. Got disqualified. You cost me $5.
j/k
I totally agree about Burning Vengeance not over-extending, and knowing when to start "going off". Your opponent doesn't have to have Nihil Spellbomb in order to punish you for overextending.
Well, for me personally, I'm probably going to sideboard 3xAncient Grudge and 2xCrush, and then hope that this deck gets overlooked and I can just statistically overwhelm any hateful sideboards. But I'm trying to build the U/R/B Tempo version of the old deck.
It's actually much worse if the deck is off the radar - when do you board in your artifact hate? While a deck like Dredge can safely assume graveyard hate will be prevalent in almost every single sideboard, we cannot. Under what circumstances would you bring it in game 2?
The problem is that if they see the hate game 2, you will likely lose as a result. If they don't see it, you still won't bring it in for game 3 and have just as much of a chance to lose. But you have to keep in mind that, as most opponents assume that kind of hate kills us stone cold, he will aggressively mulligan for it.
That, again, is another point in our favour - because of an apparently wide lack of understanding of how the deck works, opponents will assume all they have to do is resolve a Nihil/Cage and they autowin. This is clearly far from the case, and because 'smart' players under this impression will aggressively mulligan for the hate you will be advantaged when they keep a mediocre 5 simply because of the presence of Cage.
The other way to work around the hate is to sidestep it completely: by playing my plan of a Koth + Shrine + Delver transformational SB. This means that Cage/Nihil are extremely ineffective tools for your opponent G2, and if it gets to G3 you can always swap back.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I do like your sideboard plan. I think my deck is initially better poised than most BV decks, because of the tempo and creature support in the deck. Mastering the sideboard is going to take a bit of time and waiting to see how the pieces fall in the rest of standard.
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Ratchet bomb seems like it may be good for taking out the cage and all the tokens that will be sure to pop up everywhere. It also kills some hard to answer stuff like shrine.
Ratchet bomb seems like it may be good for taking out the cage and all the tokens that will be sure to pop up everywhere. It also kills some hard to answer stuff like shrine.
Actually, MD Ratchet Bomb is beginning to look like a good meta call with all the tokens running around, plus the interaction with Cage/Nihil. I would definitely play a minimum of 2-3 in my 75. The question is, whether the aggro SB invalidates the hate completely. The trouble with it is that it takes a lot of SB room (around 8-10 slots) which we then can't use for a diverse sideboard like you would in a 'traditional' build.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Ratchet bomb seems like it may be good for taking out the cage and all the tokens that will be sure to pop up everywhere. It also kills some hard to answer stuff like shrine.
2cmc answers for 1cmc always hurt especially when spellbomb gets to go off still.
I really think that there should be a card that rewards players for going into more colors or something I dunno since there is going to be a new set of enemy flashbacks, as it stands its hard to get excited about BV.
If we want a direct answer to Cage/Nihil, then Crush is our best option, followed by Ancient Grudge. The point is, Ratchet Bomb works.
I foresee a huge problem if hate isn't put into everyone's sideboard: who has hate G2 and who hasn't? How do you know whether they've boarded it in or not? The answer: you don't! So, if this deck is on the radar and everyone's packing Nihil or Cage, we can automatically assume they have it and board in anti-hate.
However, if this deck isn't on the radar, we can't assume anything. Ratchet Bomb, played maindeck and not boarded out G2, will kill Nihil/Cage while not being a dead card if they don't. Forget the 1 mana vs 2 mana bit, we're talking about freeing up our engine, which is going to gain us far more of a tempo gain if we're able to take advantage of it fully.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
You really seem to be overvaluing the engine... It didnt make any waves in type 2 and isnt even the best deck in block. It would first need more promising cards... the blue version is a start but that doesnt even seem fully fourable.
The 2 vs 1 cmc is HUGE, it means that they could even have counter back up potentially and not let ratchet bomb resolve. Ratchet bomb still has to tick up once to deal with the cage and the absurdity of the lengths we are reaching for a medicore enchantment cant be overlooked to begin with.
You really seem to be overvaluing the engine... It didnt make any waves in type 2 and isnt even the best deck in block. It would first need more promising cards... the blue version is a start but that doesnt even seem fully fourable.
The 2 vs 1 cmc is HUGE, it means that they could even have counter back up potentially and not let ratchet bomb resolve. Ratchet bomb still has to tick up once to deal with the cage and the absurdity of the lengths we are reaching for a medicore enchantment cant be overlooked to begin with.
Guys, have you ever wondered how Dredge beats hate? It's the same way aggro beats wraths - by NOT OVEREXTENDING. If they have a Nihil, then don't dump 2x Think Twice off your Looting - wait. You will always find more flashback stuff after a Nihil, and you don't even need it to win. Burning Vengeance is simply an engine, but you should function perfectly well without it.
Actually, as a test, try removing BV from your deck and try out the remaining 56 cards (perhaps take out a land). You should still be able to function reasonably as a regular control deck. If you can't, there's an issue with your list.
What do you mean, it didn't make any waves in T2? This is T2... That's the whole point of this thread, isn't it? They printed Faithless Looting, which is an awesome enabler.
The entire deck is based around the 'mediocre enchantment'. If you want to cut it, go ahead and play Chapin Grixis. I won't complain.
You also seem to have completely missed my Koth/Delver/Shrine SB plan, which, while it will remain in its infancy until after DKA's release, completely sidesteps the hate with redundancy.
EDIT: I completely forgot about Mental Misstep! That and Crush are looking like our best options. The upside with Misstep is that it beats Nihil Spellbomb and also any random Surgical Extractions. The downside, however, is that you have to have it in hand when they cast it - otherwise, you're screwed.
I think a split of Misstep/Crush would work. Or, just Crush.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I'm not sure I like the list that much. Sun Titan has been discussed before as a way to recur Burning Vengeances. Now with Faithless Looting as well as Forbidden Alchemy to discard BV, as well it simply dying to Mana Leak or Ray of Revelation, Sun Titan in a white splash could make a good strategy.
Whipflare is something I keep forgetting about. Potentially, it can be really good. Actually, now that I think about it, it's almost strictly better than Arc Trail. I'm going to swap them around.
Gut Shot is an interesting choice; the deck seems to be extremely metagame-focused (as you'd expect).
I would definitely recommend playing Delver of Secrets. You'll have to up the Island count, and I'm not sure what you'd cut (possibly a Phoenix?), but it'll be well worth it. I can see the Shrines being absolutely brutal.
You may want to look into including a few copies of Snapcaster Mage. Alongside Brimstone Volley and Incinerate, 1-2 copies could of help. That said, you lack counterspells, which potentially makes it weaker.
What does your sideboard look like? Do you board in any counterspells?
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I'm seriously considering a Liquemetal coating/ancient grudge combo here. I loved that whole artifact destroy build we had before zen rotated with Ancient stirrings. I am hopeless when it comes to avoiding stupid deck ideas and extremely stubborn even when they clearly don't work. But dammit im trying this!
The build up and suddenly nuke them with Past in Flames idea really only works once if at all. The cards that go into it require you to actually have three or more at once to make the whole thing work, so yard hate can destroy you more so than with the non-Past in Flames idea. You also lose out on some dig while you add those nine cards to the deck because you can't sacrifice your counter/removal.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
Standard really needed a common fetchland, especially enemy colored decks like our own. This is very much appreciated, especially by budget players like myself who need stable manabases without spending a ton. Will still play Shimmering Grotto as a 2-of though. Here's my list with current changes for the new spoilers and foreseen meta:
I added a couple Ratchet Bombs to the list due to BW Tokens being an obvious archetype as well as needing an additional out to Grafdigger's Cage. Will continue to change the list with additional spoilers.
PS. Grafdigger's Cage is single handedly the worst hoser design I have ever seen. It shuts down WAY too many decks, is far to general, and costs far too little. The card completely shuts down some decks, most of which don't even need hosing. Really not happy with Wizards due to this card. But I do know that not everyone will play it and I will play through the hate because I believe this deck is the best, most fun deck I have played in a while and fits my playstyle perfectly.
Standard really needed a common fetchland, especially enemy colored decks like our own. This is very much appreciated, especially by budget players like myself who need stable manabases without spending a ton. Will still play Shimmering Grotto as a 2-of though. Here's my list with current changes for the new spoilers and foreseen meta:
I added a couple Ratchet Bombs to the list due to BW Tokens being an obvious archetype as well as needing an additional out to Grafdigger's Cage. Will continue to change the list with additional spoilers.
How has Incinerate been working for you? Better than Arc Trail/Whipflare or Doom Blade? I never really liked it personally.
Also, I prefer Crush for the board over Ancient Grudge, because it most cost-effectively deals with Nihil/Cage. If they only have one hate artifact, Crush is just plain better, and if they have two then the flashback is useless anyway. It also avoids stretching the manabase too much. Even if they play a Nihil when your Grudge is in the bin, unless you already have the Forest or have an uncracked Evolving Wilds, you won't get the chance to kill it, so it might as well not be there (vs Nihil the only point is to force them to crack it, when it suits you best and not them).
That said, if Shrine of Loyal Legions becomes popular in the Sorin decks, then Ancient Grudge will become better value.
PS. Grafdigger's Cage is single handedly the worst hoser design I have ever seen. It shuts down WAY too many decks, is far to general, and costs far too little. The card completely shuts down some decks, most of which don't even need hosing. Really not happy with Wizards due to this card. But I do know that not everyone will play it and I will play through the hate because I believe this deck is the best, most fun deck I have played in a while and fits my playstyle perfectly.
QFT. Well said. It was a really stupid move, especially having Nihil Spellbomb already in the format.
The entire time during the last match when I was color screwed and kept off double white I was thinking "Damnit Jaden, that troll-faced bastard might be right."
I understand that Crush is better against hate, but I would also rather have artifact kill versus decks such as Tempered Steel who run tons of artifacts and won't bother with a 1-drop do nothing. The 2 for 1 is totally worth the extra casting cost to me. But that is my personal opinion. I will probably wind up picking up a set of Crush anyways for testing.
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I definitely think that Thought Scour is most effective in BV Control. For one blue, you're getting huge card advantage in a deck where most of the cards you'd mill into your graveyard are going to have flashback - plus it lets you draw a card. It'd be even better in the late game, after BV is already down and you have a Snapcaster in-hand.
I also think that BV control's best answer for Cage at a competitive level is going to be more effective draw so that you can carry less draw and more counters - as well as a 4ofCrush in your sideboard. Crush is the only answer to Cage that doesn't set you back in tempo.
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I've been thinking about singletons also. So 8 counters with Snapcaster really is too much? I'll add the land and some burn to the face. Board 1 of the Dissipates and add a Wurmcoil I guess. If I had to choose any of the "Titans", it'd be him.I like Frost, but I'd rather take something that would definitely keep me in the game longer. I was thinking about a Karn too.
Thought Scour looks like it'll be cool. I'll pick up a playset to mess around with after release. Can't really hurt to try it out.
I think that Inferno Titan is your nut six drop here, because it's going to come in and immediately be able to slow down any board control your opponent's managed to gain. Since aggro is the toughest matchup for this deck, that's what you want a Singleton to answer, IMO.
I like Thought Scour a lot for this deck. It needs Snapcaster, which is it's downside, but it gives you the most card advantage for the least cost of any card out there.
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Guys, have you ever wondered how Dredge beats hate? It's the same way aggro beats wraths - by NOT OVEREXTENDING. If they have a Nihil, then don't dump 2x Think Twice off your Looting - wait. You will always find more flashback stuff after a Nihil, and you don't even need it to win. Burning Vengeance is simply an engine, but you should function perfectly well without it.
Actually, as a test, try removing BV from your deck and try out the remaining 56 cards (perhaps take out a land). You should still be able to function reasonably as a regular control deck. If you can't, there's an issue with your list.
Note that you won't have the same late-game dominance, but the test is more about surviving against aggro until that point where BV takes over completely. Obviously (in a normal RL match) in the lategame you're going to have to kill a Cage/deal with Nihil, but you should have drawn enough cards that you have an answer, and have at least one counterspell to deal with a second copy.
I highly disagree about Thought Scour. The problem is that with less than 25% cards with flashback in your deck, you have a roughly 50/50 chance of flipping one card with flashback. It basically turns into a one-mana cantrip with no effect.
Inferno Titan is very good, but so is Wurmcoil. They both destroy aggro. The difference, however, is that Wurmcoil is so difficult to remove, and it functions much better against red aggro. Inferno Titan will be better in a token + O-ring metagame though. Really it should be a meta choice.
I normally play 6 counters + 3 Snapcasters, I've found that works well for me.
Between the titans, it could either be Wurmcoil, Inferno or Consecrated Sphinx. Wurmcoil is best when your opponent is packing non-exiling removal, Inferno is better against weenie/token/illusions strategies, and Sphinx is better against Wolf Run/Control or when they board out all their removal game 2 after seeing no creatures.
That's a very interesting take. A big concern I'd have is the lack of reccuring damage sources (ie. creatures); a few Chandra's Phoenix can go a long way. I'd also add a few copies of a finisher, either Wurmcoil or Inferno Titan.
I highly disagree about Thought Scour. The problem is that with less than 25% cards with flashback in your deck, you have a roughly 50/50 chance of flipping one card with flashback. It basically turns into a one-mana cantrip with no effect.
Crush is a good point. Good thinking! As long as Tempered Steel doesn't come back, that is. Ancient Grudge is also better if they have other artifacts, like swords.
You can equally advise adding lands as cutting them - you can just draw the lands off Looting and discard nonland cards. The trouble with adding lands is you have to cut other cards, and so it depends on the decklist. You're right though, 25-26 lands wouldn't hurt though.
Arc Trail will work quite well in the expected tokens meta, as will Galvanic Blast. I used to run Doom Blade but it remains to be seen how effective it will be post-DKA. I'm not sure I can recommend Incinerate simply because we aren't looking for the burn to the face (unlike aggro Delver builds); I would pick Doom Blade, Arc Trail or Galvanic Blast over it.
12 counters is rather overkill. I would at most run 10-11, I prefer 9 in my build (3 Snap and 2 Dissipate). For the remaining slots you really need creature removal.
Do you mean Misstep MD or SB? SB it could work against decks like red, but I'd be more concerned about BW Tokens at this point in terms of sideboard considerations.
What's the point of bouncing Nihil/Cage? O.o You'd have to counter it for the card to be effective, which isn't likely at all to happen.
Why are they using both Nihil and Cage? And even if they are, they'd be splitting a playset. Note that Ancient Grudge can kill the Cage now, and kill a Nihil out of the bin later (to force them to crack it before you dump more flashback in).
Thalia won't see much play because white now plays too many noncreature spells. It would be an SB option in a T2 mono-white weenie deck, but not something mainstream like BW Tokens.
Grand Abolisher isn't that bad; it's just another 2/2 that temporarily locks out our counterspells - we have ample ways to kill it, and we're mostly focused on countering the T4 Sorin. Everything else can be dealt with easily.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
:symr::symg:Aggro Werewolves:symg::symr:
:symb:Black Deck Wins
Modern
Faeries
:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
Commander
Lovisa Coldeyes
:symb::symu::symg:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb:
Tried this. Got disqualified. You cost me $5.
j/k
I totally agree about Burning Vengeance not over-extending, and knowing when to start "going off". Your opponent doesn't have to have Nihil Spellbomb in order to punish you for overextending.
It's actually much worse if the deck is off the radar - when do you board in your artifact hate? While a deck like Dredge can safely assume graveyard hate will be prevalent in almost every single sideboard, we cannot. Under what circumstances would you bring it in game 2?
The problem is that if they see the hate game 2, you will likely lose as a result. If they don't see it, you still won't bring it in for game 3 and have just as much of a chance to lose. But you have to keep in mind that, as most opponents assume that kind of hate kills us stone cold, he will aggressively mulligan for it.
That, again, is another point in our favour - because of an apparently wide lack of understanding of how the deck works, opponents will assume all they have to do is resolve a Nihil/Cage and they autowin. This is clearly far from the case, and because 'smart' players under this impression will aggressively mulligan for the hate you will be advantaged when they keep a mediocre 5 simply because of the presence of Cage.
The other way to work around the hate is to sidestep it completely: by playing my plan of a Koth + Shrine + Delver transformational SB. This means that Cage/Nihil are extremely ineffective tools for your opponent G2, and if it gets to G3 you can always swap back.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
:symr::symg:Aggro Werewolves:symg::symr:
:symb:Black Deck Wins
Modern
Faeries
:symw::symu: Suspend Control:symu::symw:
Commander
Lovisa Coldeyes
:symb::symu::symg:The Mimeoplasm:symg::symu::symb:
EDH:
Experiment Kraj
Ulasht, the Hate Seed
Balthor the Defiled
Pround owner of a C/Ube
Actually, MD Ratchet Bomb is beginning to look like a good meta call with all the tokens running around, plus the interaction with Cage/Nihil. I would definitely play a minimum of 2-3 in my 75. The question is, whether the aggro SB invalidates the hate completely. The trouble with it is that it takes a lot of SB room (around 8-10 slots) which we then can't use for a diverse sideboard like you would in a 'traditional' build.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
2cmc answers for 1cmc always hurt especially when spellbomb gets to go off still.
I really think that there should be a card that rewards players for going into more colors or something I dunno since there is going to be a new set of enemy flashbacks, as it stands its hard to get excited about BV.
I foresee a huge problem if hate isn't put into everyone's sideboard: who has hate G2 and who hasn't? How do you know whether they've boarded it in or not? The answer: you don't! So, if this deck is on the radar and everyone's packing Nihil or Cage, we can automatically assume they have it and board in anti-hate.
However, if this deck isn't on the radar, we can't assume anything. Ratchet Bomb, played maindeck and not boarded out G2, will kill Nihil/Cage while not being a dead card if they don't. Forget the 1 mana vs 2 mana bit, we're talking about freeing up our engine, which is going to gain us far more of a tempo gain if we're able to take advantage of it fully.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
The 2 vs 1 cmc is HUGE, it means that they could even have counter back up potentially and not let ratchet bomb resolve. Ratchet bomb still has to tick up once to deal with the cage and the absurdity of the lengths we are reaching for a medicore enchantment cant be overlooked to begin with.
I'm overvaluing the engine? O.o
What do you mean, it didn't make any waves in T2? This is T2... That's the whole point of this thread, isn't it? They printed Faithless Looting, which is an awesome enabler.
The entire deck is based around the 'mediocre enchantment'. If you want to cut it, go ahead and play Chapin Grixis. I won't complain.
You also seem to have completely missed my Koth/Delver/Shrine SB plan, which, while it will remain in its infancy until after DKA's release, completely sidesteps the hate with redundancy.
I think a split of Misstep/Crush would work. Or, just Crush.
EDIT 2: Lists, as promised:
2 Devil's Play
2 Pristine Talisman
3 Geistflame
3 Arc Trail
3 Slagstorm
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
7 Mountain
7 Island
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Secrets of the Dead
3 Crush
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Dissipate
1 Slagstorm
1 Geistflame
2 Devil's Play
2 Pristine Talisman
3 Geistflame
3 Arc Trail
3 Slagstorm
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
10 Mountain
4 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
3 Koth of the Hammer
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Slagstorm
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
4 Island
4 Sulfur Falls
3 Seachrome Coast
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Clifftop Retrear
4 Shimmering Grotto
1 Sun Titan
4 Burning Vengeance
1 Chandra, the Firebrand
3 Geistflame
1 Gut Shot
2 Whipflare
2 Slagstorm
4 Think Twice
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Devil's Play
4 Mana Leak
Basically straight UR that uses Sun Titan; I think it's a neat idea to pack more punch even if it only returns 7 of the maindeck cards.
EDIT: Sideboard is 2 Titan 2 TR 1 Celestial Purge 3 Ph Image 2 Whipflare 2 Dissipate 1 Ghost Quarter 1 Grudge 1 Gut Shot
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
4 Geistflame
4 Incinerate
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Faithless Looting
2 Devil's Play
3 Brimstone Volley
2 Whipflare
2 Slagstorm
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Sulfur Vents
1 Island
Thoughts?
Thank you Dalkon Cledwin
Decks:
Block:
OozeVine
Leveler Midrange
I'm not sure I like the list that much. Sun Titan has been discussed before as a way to recur Burning Vengeances. Now with Faithless Looting as well as Forbidden Alchemy to discard BV, as well it simply dying to Mana Leak or Ray of Revelation, Sun Titan in a white splash could make a good strategy.
Whipflare is something I keep forgetting about. Potentially, it can be really good. Actually, now that I think about it, it's almost strictly better than Arc Trail. I'm going to swap them around.
Gut Shot is an interesting choice; the deck seems to be extremely metagame-focused (as you'd expect).
What's TR in the sideboard? Time Reversal?
That is a very nice list! I surprisingly like it.
I would definitely recommend playing Delver of Secrets. You'll have to up the Island count, and I'm not sure what you'd cut (possibly a Phoenix?), but it'll be well worth it. I can see the Shrines being absolutely brutal.
You may want to look into including a few copies of Snapcaster Mage. Alongside Brimstone Volley and Incinerate, 1-2 copies could of help. That said, you lack counterspells, which potentially makes it weaker.
What does your sideboard look like? Do you board in any counterspells?
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
Also gitixian probe/gut shot/ past in flames. Saw that you mentioned testing these together what was the out come? just bad?
The build up and suddenly nuke them with Past in Flames idea really only works once if at all. The cards that go into it require you to actually have three or more at once to make the whole thing work, so yard hate can destroy you more so than with the non-Past in Flames idea. You also lose out on some dig while you add those nine cards to the deck because you can't sacrifice your counter/removal.
"Reveal a Dragon"
This will make our mana so much more consistent. No more Shimmering Grotto! (p.s. I really hated that card :p)
2 Devil's Play
2 Pristine Talisman
3 Geistflame
1 Doom Blade
2 Whipflare
3 Slagstorm
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
6 Mountain
5 Island
1 Swamp
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Dragonskull Summit
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Evolving Wilds
3 Secrets of the Dead
3 Crush
3 Phantasmal Image
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Dissipate
1 Slagstorm
1 Geistflame
2 Devil's Play
2 Pristine Talisman
3 Geistflame
1 Incinerate
2 Whipflare
3 Slagstorm
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Think Twice
2 Forbidden Alchemy
8 Mountain
3 Island
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Shrine of Burning Rage
3 Koth of the Hammer
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Slagstorm
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes:
4x Island
8x Mountain
2x Shimmering Grotto
1x Swamp
4x Evolving Wilds
4x Sulfur Falls
4x Think Twice
4x Mana Leak
3x Dissipate
3x Incinerate
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Slagstorm
2x Pristine Talisman
2x Devil's Play
2x Forbidden Alchemy
4x Geistflame
4x Burning Vengeance
4x Faithless Looting
3x Ancient Grudge
1x Dissipate
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Slagstorm
3x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Delver of Secrets
2x Secrets of the Dead
I added a couple Ratchet Bombs to the list due to BW Tokens being an obvious archetype as well as needing an additional out to Grafdigger's Cage. Will continue to change the list with additional spoilers.
PS. Grafdigger's Cage is single handedly the worst hoser design I have ever seen. It shuts down WAY too many decks, is far to general, and costs far too little. The card completely shuts down some decks, most of which don't even need hosing. Really not happy with Wizards due to this card. But I do know that not everyone will play it and I will play through the hate because I believe this deck is the best, most fun deck I have played in a while and fits my playstyle perfectly.
How has Incinerate been working for you? Better than Arc Trail/Whipflare or Doom Blade? I never really liked it personally.
Also, I prefer Crush for the board over Ancient Grudge, because it most cost-effectively deals with Nihil/Cage. If they only have one hate artifact, Crush is just plain better, and if they have two then the flashback is useless anyway. It also avoids stretching the manabase too much. Even if they play a Nihil when your Grudge is in the bin, unless you already have the Forest or have an uncracked Evolving Wilds, you won't get the chance to kill it, so it might as well not be there (vs Nihil the only point is to force them to crack it, when it suits you best and not them).
That said, if Shrine of Loyal Legions becomes popular in the Sorin decks, then Ancient Grudge will become better value.
QFT. Well said. It was a really stupid move, especially having Nihil Spellbomb already in the format.
Domain Zoo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Retired decks:
URWBGrixis Teachings (pauper) BWRU
URWB Tainted Vengeance (SOM-INN standard) BWRU
UBR Grixis Vengeance (SOM-INN Standard) RBU
(click for decklist)
Ego Quotes: