Depends, U/G mana ramp, not necessarily, plus you can surprise your opponent at end step and run them over. Me thinks that the image would be a nice addition as well.
Proliferating is more effective of course when you have more than one Test Subject out. Yes, with one, its a bit of a non-sequitur. but with three, well, you get about 6UUUUUUs worth of counters for 4 with Contagion Engine..
I think the idea should be a lot of instants, runechanter spike, and inkmoth nexus to surround your test subject and give you plenty of win conditions. I'll post a deck in a bit.
Dang I just sold my Inkmoths cause I dumped my infect but realize what they are used for. Anyone thought about Cackling Counterparting these guys? Maybe Forbidden Alc if Snapcasters are used.
If you were to go U/G you can replace Ludevic's Test Subject with Primordial Hydra (which is a better card in basically every way)
NO way its not. First of all Primordial Hydra is a bad card.
You are evaluating test subject wrong, its a common mistake I think, Its not pay 12 for a 13/13 with trample. The value is it gives you something to dump unused mana into on your opponents end step, while coming down early enough to be a relevant wall for their turn 2 creature.
This way you can keep up mana leaks dissipates and whatever and when they dont cast you can pump putting pressure on your opponent to deal with it when it flips, while you hopefully counter spell down their removal.
we can put test subject down on 2 and hope it sneaks in or 4 and protect it, hydra down with one or two tokens would require turn 5-6 if we want a mana leak to protect and at that point mana leak loses alot of its power
So my question is - why not play both around a U/G aggro-controllish shell?
Every creature we add reduces the chances of a delver flip on turn 2 which is a question of got an answer for this 3/2 flyer? well to bad I have mana leak. Turn 2 delver is a waif with evasion that never flips back.... The weakness is the deck needs to be built around it and there is still alot of luck involved the deck the OP proposed with modification could be this deck. I dont think it will ever be "competitive" but could have a few awesome games as a crazy rogue deck.
And I feel green doesnt add anything at all to the instant/sorcery department it seems silly to weaken the manabase. If we want to go 2 colors I think its going to be adding this in to a Black/Blue shell as someone already mentioned.
NO way its not. First of all Primordial Hydra is a bad card.
It's not a good card, but it is better than Ludevic's Test Subject. You are making a blanket statement based on previous assumptions. I have tried Primordial Hydra in a U/G draw-go deck as well as Ludevic's Test Subject and if you are running green already, Hydra is strictly better in almost every situation. If you aren't already running green, the more coherent additions of Black or White can be more valuable than Hydra is over Ludevic's.
You are evaluating test subject wrong, its a common mistake I think, Its not pay 12 for a 13/13 with trample. The value is it gives you something to dump unused mana into on your opponents end step, while coming down early enough to be a relevant wall for their turn 2 creature.
Wouldn't you rather dump the unused 2 mana into a Think Twice or something useful?
This way you can keep up mana leaks dissipates and whatever and when they don't cast you can pump putting pressure on your opponent to deal with it when it flips, while you hopefully counter spell down their removal.
Or you can do the same exact thing with the Hydra but use the extra mana to flashback something, playing a Snapcaster Mage or Think Twice, for example.
we can put test subject down on 2 and hope it sneaks in or 4 and protect it, hydra down with one or two tokens would require turn 5-6 if we want a mana leak to protect and at that point mana leak loses alot of its power
You can play Hydra only 1 turn later. What does that mean? Yes, Mana leak loses it's effectiveness slightly, but only if you are on the play. If you are on the draw, turn 4 vs turn 5 doesn't matter, considering almost all removal costs 1 or 2. Also. Turn 4 or 5 Doesn't matter if they have Dismember, as they will be able to pay the Mana Leak regardless.
Let's have a hypothetical situation where you play your threat ASAP and then have to counter removal on it only once in 4 turns (which isn't really out of the question at all).
T1: Land
T2: Land, Ludevic's Test Subject
T3: Land, +1 Counter eot
T4: Land, +1 Counter eot (2 total), Mana Leak
T5: Land, +2 Counter eot (4 total)
T6: Land, +1 Counter (5 total), attack with 13/13 Trample
OR
T1: Land
T2: Land
T3: Land, Primordial Hydra with 1 counter
T4: +1 Counter (2 total)
T5: +2 Counter (4 total)
T6: +4 Counter (8 total) attack for 8.
T7: +8 Counter (16 total) attack for 16 Trample
You could have countered or drawn off of Think Twice every single turn after playing Hydra and he still gets bigger. The only time when Ludevic's Test Subject is better is when you only have to counter 1 time or less, and even then he grows faster by only half a turn. Not to mention you can still attack with Hydra when he is growing and all you can do is sit there and block with Ludevic's.
Thing is, Cody, this is a thread that is focused on building around Test Subject. Whether or not Hydra is better or worse can quickly veer off topic when we talk about using something OVER Test Subject, because then we're not contributing to the topic at hand at all. You're basically just arguing that the deck basis is wrong. And if it is, it'll die out anyways, or become a beloved casual deck for someone. So, lets put that aside for the moment.
A great option I think would be SOFAF. Which gives you a ton of mana to redump into test subject. T3, land, sword. Land, equip, +1 counter, swing and connect T4, you can get as many as 3 counters. Or just make up the two and still have Mana Leak mana open, then T5, Land, +2 counters, swing. If you added 3 counters previously, you're swinging with a sword-holder and a 13/13 trampler.
Just saying, thats a turn before you get to the 8/8 hydra.
But the problem is that once they see those 2-3 counters go on in one turn, Test Subject will get the axe before the sword holder. So you might want another one out. Which again, is why I like proliferate. That, and Clasp and Engine hand out -1/-1 counters like candy on halloween. But thats a whole 'nother game plan, there.
I choose to run Doom Blade over GFTT nowadays because Tempered Steel, Metamorphs, and Wurmcoil Engines are so popular at the moment.
Tormented Soul is the ideal swashbuckler for SOFAF because he's unblockable, and he isn't a huge threat until he actually gets the sword on him at which point, he's immune to black removal.
Insectile Abberation can be a 3/2 with evasion T2 for no mana, which isn't half bad either. And the low creature count helps his ability go off ASAP.
Proliferate, proliferate, proliferate. And draw some cards or kill some creatures while you're at it. Love it.
Really considering a deviation of this for G/U, a Control/Ramp midrange combo. I'll work on that.
Couldn't disagree more. The point of the deck is to get benefit from Runechanter. Whether by placing it on a trampler, a cheap flyer, or inkmoth. Think Twice is absolutely wrong for this scenario. Ponder will give you a cheap sorcery to add to your gy, while replacing itself and allowing you to help delver transform easier. What I'm debating adding is Probes though.
just tested the deck out and i thought it was pretty good IF it gets off. first things first, 4x SPELLSKITES ARE MANDATORY!! never once was i mad i drew one and it always benefited me against aggro and protecting my test subject. another thing id say is delvers probably have to go. theyre great aggro creatures, but they dont do anything except hold a pike for me. id say go with thrummingbirds instead to proliferate test subject. which brings me to pikes, its a great card and as a 4 of, it gives us both an alternate win con as well as kills fatties like nothing.
other than that, i do think there should be at least 1 or 2 titans or wurmcoils as alternate finishers. maybe frost titans would be good in this deck. but otherwise, its a fun version of draw go.
T1: Land
T2: Land, Ludevic's Test Subject
T3: Land, +1 Counter eot
T4: Land, +1 Counter eot (2 total), Mana Leak
T5: Land, +2 Counter eot (4 total)
T6: Land, +1 Counter (5 total), attack with 13/13 Trample
OR
T1: Land
T2: Land
T3: Land, Primordial Hydra with 1 counter
T4: +1 Counter (2 total)
T5: +2 Counter (4 total)
T6: +4 Counter (8 total) attack for 8.
T7: +8 Counter (16 total) attack for 16 Trample
This actually brings up a good point. For most blue draw go, turn 2 is crucial for cycling a think twice or bluffing a Leak. You always wanna bluff a leak =]. For our purposes, I'd probably want the think twice on turn two and would rather play the test subject turn 4 when i can back him up with spellskite or a leak.
From this perspective, T3: Land, Primordial Hydra with 1 counter seems kinda better. granted, the mana would halve to be a bit green heavy, but playing a hydra turn 3 sounds WAAAAAAAY better than a test subject turn 2(when he's gunna eat removal) or 3(when you waste a mana that probably wont even drop a bird for fear of slagstorm).
Private Mod Note
():
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When does lightning bolt kill Emrakul? When your opponent's at three.
Tormented Soul is the ideal swashbuckler for SOFAF because he's unblockable, and he isn't a huge threat until he actually gets the sword on him at which point, he's immune to black removal.
Perhaps consider Invisible Stalker instead of/as well as The tormented soul? Immune to spot removal, able to chump block, but a turn slower...
I played the thread author tonight and he asked if I got my deck from here. He asked me to post my list. I posted the original eggo roughly 3 weeks ago on Starcity. I think this deck works much better as a traditional U/B control deck. You can not count on test subject for the win, but it definitely steals games.
The deck needs to be able to win games where test subject isn't around. Test subject should really be played loosely here. Don't waste a lot of counter magic defending it. In many cases they waste their best removal on an 0/3...and in a lot of situations you can just steal wins.
The deck needs to be able to win games where test subject isn't around. Test subject should really be played loosely here. Don't waste a lot of counter magic defending it. In many cases they waste their best removal on an 0/3...and in a lot of situations you can just steal wins.
I think this is right on the money. It's amazing how worried people get when they see Test Subject hit the field, or when you add a counter or two to it. They will go to great lengths to remove it, and then they're left with fewer answers for other threats. Here are the creatures I'm running at the moment (I'll post a full decklist later):
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
I haven't been too thrilled with Steady Progress. I've got enough card draw already with Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy, and the proliferation with Test Subject never seems to work out right. I've had more success just paying the mana cost to add counters.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Quote from Kyrillos »
...this is EDH. If you aren't trying to kill someone in the most ridiculous manner possible, you're doing it wrong.
EDH: Go Crazy or Go back to Standard.
Quote from Cassidy Silver »
Griselbrand is pretty straightforward (in the same way that a nuclear holocaust is straightforward); just draw some cards, beat some face, bathe in the blood of some innocent, and repeat.
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MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
My Attempt at Vintage
WUBRGAd Nausuem AffinityGRBUW
4x Ludevic's Test Subject
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Thrummingbird
Artifacts (4):
1x Contagion Engine
3x Runechanter's Pike
3x Tezzeret's Gambit
4x Mana Leak
3x Dissipate
4x Go for the Throat
2x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Dismember
3x Ponder
4x Inkmoth Nexus
When transformed and unanswered he wins the game on his own.
Slagmill!WRRRG
The more you hate it, the stronger it becomes... :mad1::argh::banghead:
GUB The Mimeoplasm GUB
RGW Mayael the Anima RGW
GGG Seton, Krosan Protector GGG
NO way its not. First of all Primordial Hydra is a bad card.
You are evaluating test subject wrong, its a common mistake I think, Its not pay 12 for a 13/13 with trample. The value is it gives you something to dump unused mana into on your opponents end step, while coming down early enough to be a relevant wall for their turn 2 creature.
This way you can keep up mana leaks dissipates and whatever and when they dont cast you can pump putting pressure on your opponent to deal with it when it flips, while you hopefully counter spell down their removal.
we can put test subject down on 2 and hope it sneaks in or 4 and protect it, hydra down with one or two tokens would require turn 5-6 if we want a mana leak to protect and at that point mana leak loses alot of its power
Every creature we add reduces the chances of a delver flip on turn 2 which is a question of got an answer for this 3/2 flyer? well to bad I have mana leak. Turn 2 delver is a waif with evasion that never flips back.... The weakness is the deck needs to be built around it and there is still alot of luck involved the deck the OP proposed with modification could be this deck. I dont think it will ever be "competitive" but could have a few awesome games as a crazy rogue deck.
And I feel green doesnt add anything at all to the instant/sorcery department it seems silly to weaken the manabase. If we want to go 2 colors I think its going to be adding this in to a Black/Blue shell as someone already mentioned.
It's not a good card, but it is better than Ludevic's Test Subject. You are making a blanket statement based on previous assumptions. I have tried Primordial Hydra in a U/G draw-go deck as well as Ludevic's Test Subject and if you are running green already, Hydra is strictly better in almost every situation. If you aren't already running green, the more coherent additions of Black or White can be more valuable than Hydra is over Ludevic's.
Wouldn't you rather dump the unused 2 mana into a Think Twice or something useful?
Or you can do the same exact thing with the Hydra but use the extra mana to flashback something, playing a Snapcaster Mage or Think Twice, for example.
You can play Hydra only 1 turn later. What does that mean? Yes, Mana leak loses it's effectiveness slightly, but only if you are on the play. If you are on the draw, turn 4 vs turn 5 doesn't matter, considering almost all removal costs 1 or 2. Also. Turn 4 or 5 Doesn't matter if they have Dismember, as they will be able to pay the Mana Leak regardless.
Let's have a hypothetical situation where you play your threat ASAP and then have to counter removal on it only once in 4 turns (which isn't really out of the question at all).
T1: Land
T2: Land, Ludevic's Test Subject
T3: Land, +1 Counter eot
T4: Land, +1 Counter eot (2 total), Mana Leak
T5: Land, +2 Counter eot (4 total)
T6: Land, +1 Counter (5 total), attack with 13/13 Trample
OR
T1: Land
T2: Land
T3: Land, Primordial Hydra with 1 counter
T4: +1 Counter (2 total)
T5: +2 Counter (4 total)
T6: +4 Counter (8 total) attack for 8.
T7: +8 Counter (16 total) attack for 16 Trample
You could have countered or drawn off of Think Twice every single turn after playing Hydra and he still gets bigger. The only time when Ludevic's Test Subject is better is when you only have to counter 1 time or less, and even then he grows faster by only half a turn. Not to mention you can still attack with Hydra when he is growing and all you can do is sit there and block with Ludevic's.
Also, Spellskite turn 2 -> Primordial Hydra turn 3 is great.
GUB The Mimeoplasm GUB
RGW Mayael the Anima RGW
GGG Seton, Krosan Protector GGG
A great option I think would be SOFAF. Which gives you a ton of mana to redump into test subject. T3, land, sword. Land, equip, +1 counter, swing and connect T4, you can get as many as 3 counters. Or just make up the two and still have Mana Leak mana open, then T5, Land, +2 counters, swing. If you added 3 counters previously, you're swinging with a sword-holder and a 13/13 trampler.
Just saying, thats a turn before you get to the 8/8 hydra.
But the problem is that once they see those 2-3 counters go on in one turn, Test Subject will get the axe before the sword holder. So you might want another one out. Which again, is why I like proliferate. That, and Clasp and Engine hand out -1/-1 counters like candy on halloween. But thats a whole 'nother game plan, there.
Ah, right, a decklist.
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Drowned Catacombs
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Inkmoth Nexus
7 Island
5 Swamp
//Creatures: 13
4 Ludevic's Test Subject
3 Tormented Soul
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Thrummingbird
4 Doom Blade
3 Tumble Magnet
3 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Tezzeret's Gambit
1 Contaigion Engine
4 Mana Leak
3 Contagion Clasp
3 Evil Presence
2 Spellskite
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Dissipate
1 Contagion Engine
2 Grim Affliction
I choose to run Doom Blade over GFTT nowadays because Tempered Steel, Metamorphs, and Wurmcoil Engines are so popular at the moment.
Tormented Soul is the ideal swashbuckler for SOFAF because he's unblockable, and he isn't a huge threat until he actually gets the sword on him at which point, he's immune to black removal.
Insectile Abberation can be a 3/2 with evasion T2 for no mana, which isn't half bad either. And the low creature count helps his ability go off ASAP.
Proliferate, proliferate, proliferate. And draw some cards or kill some creatures while you're at it. Love it.
Really considering a deviation of this for G/U, a Control/Ramp midrange combo. I'll work on that.
My Attempt at Vintage
WUBRGAd Nausuem AffinityGRBUW
Couldn't disagree more. The point of the deck is to get benefit from Runechanter. Whether by placing it on a trampler, a cheap flyer, or inkmoth. Think Twice is absolutely wrong for this scenario. Ponder will give you a cheap sorcery to add to your gy, while replacing itself and allowing you to help delver transform easier. What I'm debating adding is Probes though.
other than that, i do think there should be at least 1 or 2 titans or wurmcoils as alternate finishers. maybe frost titans would be good in this deck. but otherwise, its a fun version of draw go.
This actually brings up a good point. For most blue draw go, turn 2 is crucial for cycling a think twice or bluffing a Leak. You always wanna bluff a leak =]. For our purposes, I'd probably want the think twice on turn two and would rather play the test subject turn 4 when i can back him up with spellskite or a leak.
From this perspective, T3: Land, Primordial Hydra with 1 counter seems kinda better. granted, the mana would halve to be a bit green heavy, but playing a hydra turn 3 sounds WAAAAAAAY better than a test subject turn 2(when he's gunna eat removal) or 3(when you waste a mana that probably wont even drop a bird for fear of slagstorm).
Perhaps consider Invisible Stalker instead of/as well as The tormented soul? Immune to spot removal, able to chump block, but a turn slower...
Here was my original list:
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Frost Titan
4x Mana Leak
2x Dissipate
3x Think Twice
2x Forbidden Alchemy
2x Despise
2x Doom Blade
2x Tribute to Hunger
2x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Disperse
2x Dismember
1x Karn Liberated
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Inkmoth Nexus
2x Ghost Quarter
7x Island
7x Swamp
I played this list in one FNM - 3-0-2. I also played this at states and went 5-4. After playing I feel the deck should be changed to this.
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Batterskull
4x Mana Leak
3x Dissipate
4x Think Twice
3x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Despise
3x Doom Blade
2x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Dismember
1x Karn Liberated
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Nephalia Drownyard
2x Ghost Quarter
7x Island
7x Swamp
The deck needs to be able to win games where test subject isn't around. Test subject should really be played loosely here. Don't waste a lot of counter magic defending it. In many cases they waste their best removal on an 0/3...and in a lot of situations you can just steal wins.
I think this is right on the money. It's amazing how worried people get when they see Test Subject hit the field, or when you add a counter or two to it. They will go to great lengths to remove it, and then they're left with fewer answers for other threats. Here are the creatures I'm running at the moment (I'll post a full decklist later):
4x Ludevic's Test Subject
4x Snapcaster Mage
1x Spellskite
2x Consecrated Sphinx
2x Wurmcoil Engine
Spells
2x Doom Blade
2x Go For The Throat
4x Mana Leak
2x Negate
3x Think Twice
3x Dissipate
2x Forbidden Alchemy
2x Steady Progress
2x Distress
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
11x Island
6x Swamp
I haven't been too thrilled with Steady Progress. I've got enough card draw already with Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy, and the proliferation with Test Subject never seems to work out right. I've had more success just paying the mana cost to add counters.