This looks real solid dawg! have you had a chance to test it? I was going to suggest cutting Ponder but with Liliana in there I can't imagine cutting it. I'd cut a Dissipate for a land though.
I have been testing it the past week and its been performing fairly well in most matchups haven't had too much trouble with all the card draw and filtering with 25 lands but it's something to consider.
My meta right now basically consists of the following.
50% UW Blade
30% Birthing Pod
10% Mirror
5% Tempered Steel
5% RDW
This one guy I keep playing against keeps pwning me with Shrine of Burning Rage so now I side in Ratchet Bomb and Spellskite
which to be honest isn't enough I hear some people in this thread are using Steel Sabotage I might actually give that a try because apart from the shrine the matchup is a walk in the park.
Against UW blade Liliana is good at dealing with Geist which can be problematic people aren't running Invisible Stalker because it's alot worse than most people think apart from that the matchup is fairly even I'd say 60-40 their favour before boarding.
Against UW I side in Phantasmal Image and Consecrated Sphinx.
Image is sweet copying Snapcaster or killing Geist or copying hero etc the list goes on.
Birthing Pod is pretty straightforward don't let them resolve it and u win
Against pod I side in Surgical Extraction, Image and Ratchet Bomb.
Tempered Steel haven't tested too much but if you play correctly its a fairly easy matchup of course if they get the nut draw then so be it.
Boarding against Tempered Steel Dismember Phantasmal Image and Ratchet Bomb. Image is good against that Mikaeus dude which is bad anyway I have no idea why people think that's good in tempered steel maybe that says something about the quality of opponents im facing
Yeh when I can be bothered I'll post exactly what I side out in each matchup
well its been a while since i played in my local fnm but i'm expecting some POD, RDW, WW and some mirrors, i hope that the u/b draw go can make a return and hope that INS can come and give some thoughts on the current build
My list is actually fairly well equipped to deal with Draw Go, because it has varied threats, some of which recur (Chandra's Phoenix, Devil's Play; also Koth of the Hammer, Chandra, the Firebrand, Inferno Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, and, of course, Shrine). I'm just worried about a game where my opponent can Dissipate a key Devil's Play or Phoenix, and has MD Negate to counter my PWs. It's not that Shrine is the only way I feel capable of beating the deck, but resolving an early Shrine is the only card that really makes me feel comfortable about my position vs the deck.
I actually think I like Sword of WaP here. There are definitely plenty of small utility guys to carry it, + Inkmoth. FaF would also be great, though, as any draw go loves to untap its lands. Maybe one of each Sword could make it in?
Interesting. If Phoenix picks up speed in the meta, disspates might be critical. I really want to get everyone who is running Lantern Spirits on board with the Sword package, the swords just provide SO MUCH card advantage.
This is my post from the new card discussion thread.
I'm probably going to end up cutting the ponders, even though i really think they can increase consistency considerably. I also think the deck should be playing 26-27 lands, and i only have 25 posted there.
My sideboard is also extremelly rough right now, but i expect to be updating it a good bit soon.
I think for the maindeck, the immediate changes I'm going to be making will be -1 ponder, -1 blue sun's zenith +1 land, and +1 forbidden alchemy.
I think we are more or less on the same page, you should post a a recentlist so i can compare mine to yours.
You spend three mana to play a card that doesnt net results for three turns AND requires an additional 3 for 3 turns before its available. Lets compare this to spirit.
Spirit protects itself and can attack the turn after its played, spirit also has evasion. Spirit ALSO costs 3 mana, and can block the turn its cast.
...see where I'm going with this? Its like choosing to play cancel over counterspell, in this deck spirit is almost always a better version of Titan Forge.
On another note, i've been contemplating a "sword board" (despite my hatred for "blade decks"). This is mainly due to the cards snapcaster mage, mentor of the meek, lantern spirit, midnight haunting, mimic vat, sword of feast and famine and moorland haunt. Opening up this option would require a slight white splash though. Does it seem good enough to warrant it? I think it would really catch other control decks by surprise, while still retaining some ridiculous CA engines.
Your mana curve looks a lot like mine. Do you REALLY feel the need to play so many lands? I feel flooded at 23 and I rather draw more threats then lands that I don't need.
Also on Forbidden Alchemy, does it provide you that much compared to ponder? Sure it can possibly enable Snapcaster, and it does have one more dig while allowing you to drop cards you MIGHT not need but the pain of having to drop something you could use really hurts. I mean sure there are a lot of times I can't stand ponder but at least then you have the advantage just shuffling. I just feel I rather not have to dump answers.
The Titan Forge idea was just that, an idea. No need to get all antsy about it. It wasn't a Spirit Lantern versus Titan Forge comment, it was strictly, "hey, idea, titan forge, debate." And we did, and it was along the same lines as the Abomination, sure we are a draw go deck but we can't have things that take up to 3 turns to get online or require a huge mana investment.
I would also suggest you just mainboard some swords. Their sheer power simply cannot be denied. Feast and Famine provide more control and allow us to push harder then normal and War and Peace turn it into a race. Both of them scream answer it or lose the game. No one wants to see a resolved Sword.
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Here's what I'm working with right now. I tweaked the numbers in the board a little bit, and shipped Flashfreeze since I found myself never siding it in, even against monored and monogreen. I'd almost always rather be able to counter an artifact or Dismember or splashed spell. Ratchet Bomb is at 2 right now, to help stop Werewolves and token strategies cold; also, it helps against specific permanents we can't deal with (resolved Tempered Steel or Shrine, for instance). Witchbane Orbs also work well against RDW-type strategies, drastically lowering the effectiveness of Shrines and Chandra, as well as general burn; and if they want to try to burn our Sentinel to death, good luck
Honestly instead of running steel sabotage run a bounce spell. I used to run 2-3 into the roil just for things that I can't force my opponent to discard or things that slip through counterspells. I know the bounce spell we have now doesn't have the kicker to cantrip, but it is still very decent as long as you have plenty of card draw. BTW this is my card draw suite.
4 visions of beyond
4 think twice
2 USZ
Visions is for snappy because ponder is unfortunately a sorcery. I'm still not sold on the rest of the deck though. I might try this for my counterspells.
4 mana leak
4 dissipate
2 negate
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This is based off of El_Presidente's list; to be blunt I cut the MD Negate and a Sphinx for the Swords. Still, the list does have 9 cheap(er) creatures + 4 Inkmoth Nexus to equip to. One piece of tech I am a little proud of is Buried Ruin - it can recur Swords, Solemn, Wurmcoil, and most of all Darksteel Sentinel when it dies to Dismember. I didn't think Drownyard was insane anyway, and having MD outs to Acidic Slime blowing up Swords is important to me. Sentinel actually looks amazing when equipped with a Sword - bashing AND blocking for 5, with protections, while being indestructible? That's just absurdly good. I think cutting a Sphinx is fine since Swords threaten to close games, too, but the Negate I am missing. I also found room for a single Dismember, as I thought 3 removal spells was just too low, and while I could cut the Dismember for the Negate, I think the additional kill spell is a little more important than the counter. I could definitely be wrong - but that's what testing is for.
I'll be testing this w/Presidente's SB, but -1 Spellbomb, +1 Negate (since I can recur Spellbomb with Buried Ruin if necessary, and I do want that Negate post-SB at least).
Although, while you're digging 1 deeper, you're also getting 5 less cards. Chew on that.
Wow, way to only respond to one sentence in the entire post. I guess that means I'm right.
Obviously you don't draw a billion cards. But if you need one answer to something late in the game, it doesn't matter if you draw ten cards or two, if the two are what you need. Also you're playing the card and flashing it back, making it resilient to counterspells, and it requires less blue mana to play. Preferring to draw seven random cards as opposed to two good ones is just Timmy kicking in.
This is just an afterthought though. I'm not suggesting Alchemy is more powerful than USZ in the late game, because it isn't. So I'm done talking about this. If you want to address my actual points feel free.
This is based off of El_Presidente's list; to be blunt I cut the MD Negate and a Sphinx for the Swords. Still, the list does have 9 cheap(er) creatures + 4 Inkmoth Nexus to equip to. One piece of tech I am a little proud of is Buried Ruin - it can recur Swords, Solemn, Wurmcoil, and most of all Darksteel Sentinel when it dies to Dismember. I didn't think Drownyard was insane anyway, and having MD outs to Acidic Slime blowing up Swords is important to me. Sentinel actually looks amazing when equipped with a Sword - bashing AND blocking for 5, with protections, while being indestructible? That's just absurdly good. I think cutting a Sphinx is fine since Swords threaten to close games, too, but the Negate I am missing. I also found room for a single Dismember, as I thought 3 removal spells was just too low, and while I could cut the Dismember for the Negate, I think the additional kill spell is a little more important than the counter. I could definitely be wrong - but that's what testing is for.
I'll be testing this w/Presidente's SB, but -1 Spellbomb, +1 Negate (since I can recur Spellbomb with Buried Ruin if necessary, and I do want that Negate post-SB at least).
Ooooh, Buried Ruin... I like! Good find. I didn't even think about that for this list. I will definitely be cutting one of my Drownyards (down to 2 now) for this puppy.
Let me know how the swords work out. Part of me wants to be like "NO WHAT ARE YOU DOING", but if it works for you, I'll try it for myself. I think I see the swords as a little too much happening on my turn, and that I'd rather leave my creatures on defense (thus losing one of the main advantages of the swords). But like I said, if it works, I'll give it a shot. Cuz who doesn't want to smack their opponent to death with an Azure Mage?
Also, just letting you guys know in advance (in case y'all want to go ahead and test), my next piece of experimental tech (in case Witchbane Orb sucks) is Life's Finale. Resolving one of those against a control list can mean game over, since ripping all their finishers away basically leaves them unable to win.
Wow, way to only respond to one sentence in the entire post. I guess that means I'm right.
Obviously you don't draw a billion cards. But if you need one answer to something late in the game, it doesn't matter if you draw ten cards or two, if the two are what you need. Also you're playing the card and flashing it back, making it resilient to counterspells, and it requires less blue mana to play. Preferring to draw seven random cards as opposed to two good ones is just Timmy kicking in.
This is just an afterthought though. I'm not suggesting Alchemy is more powerful than USZ in the late game, because it isn't. So I'm done talking about this. If you want to address my actual points feel free.
To respond to the rest of your post, I don't like Alchemy because this deck only has a few win conditions (and it aims to protect those), so the idea of milling away my Consecrated Sphinx so that I can grab a Doom Blade seems unappealing to me. Preferring to draw seven random cards is knowing how powerful my deck is and that chances are, I'll be able to find my answer in those 7 cards, or find another card that can.
Honestly instead of running steel sabotage run a bounce spell. I used to run 2-3 into the roil just for things that I can't force my opponent to discard or things that slip through counterspells. I know the bounce spell we have now doesn't have the kicker to cantrip, but it is still very decent as long as you have plenty of card draw. BTW this is my card draw suite.
4 visions of beyond
4 think twice
2 USZ
Visions is for snappy because ponder is unfortunately a sorcery. I'm still not sold on the rest of the deck though. I might try this for my counterspells.
4 mana leak
4 dissipate
2 negate
Snapcaster can still flashback Ponder. Yes it'll be in the Main phase but that isnt to say that Ponder is worse then a instant due to Snapcaster. Also understand that Vision of Beyond will rarely if ever hit a 3 for 1 unless you have a maindeck'd jace or you are facing an opponent that self mills. Sure, ponder is no Preordain, but it does atm at least outclass Vision of Beyond for the scope that it can achieve at any point in the game.
Counterspell suite looks fine, personnaly if I was running 4 hard counters and 4 soft counters I would probably use the negate slots for either the discard/threats/or removal. But again that is a personal preference.
This is based off of El_Presidente's list; to be blunt I cut the MD Negate and a Sphinx for the Swords. Still, the list does have 9 cheap(er) creatures + 4 Inkmoth Nexus to equip to. One piece of tech I am a little proud of is Buried Ruin - it can recur Swords, Solemn, Wurmcoil, and most of all Darksteel Sentinel when it dies to Dismember. I didn't think Drownyard was insane anyway, and having MD outs to Acidic Slime blowing up Swords is important to me. Sentinel actually looks amazing when equipped with a Sword - bashing AND blocking for 5, with protections, while being indestructible? That's just absurdly good. I think cutting a Sphinx is fine since Swords threaten to close games, too, but the Negate I am missing. I also found room for a single Dismember, as I thought 3 removal spells was just too low, and while I could cut the Dismember for the Negate, I think the additional kill spell is a little more important than the counter. I could definitely be wrong - but that's what testing is for.
I'll be testing this w/Presidente's SB, but -1 Spellbomb, +1 Negate (since I can recur Spellbomb with Buried Ruin if necessary, and I do want that Negate post-SB at least).
Damn I completely forgot about Buried Ruin. That is a pretty nifty trick to a more heavy on the artifacts list. Honestly it might be good just to have at least one even in a Sword only list. Sideboarded games 2 and 3, your opponent, if not playing white, will most likely have some sort of artifact destruction spell. Buried Ruin can possibly save the day on that respect. Good Find.
Wow, way to only respond to one sentence in the entire post. I guess that means I'm right.
Obviously you don't draw a billion cards. But if you need one answer to something late in the game, it doesn't matter if you draw ten cards or two, if the two are what you need. Also you're playing the card and flashing it back, making it resilient to counterspells, and it requires less blue mana to play. Preferring to draw seven random cards as opposed to two good ones is just Timmy kicking in.
This is just an afterthought though. I'm not suggesting Alchemy is more powerful than USZ in the late game, because it isn't. So I'm done talking about this. If you want to address my actual points feel free.
Don't take offense, some people just have certain preferences. Honestly I can see where the both of you are coming from, hard draw versus deeper sifting. Both have pros and both have cons. Like for me, I would almost always rather be able to draw all of them, then just get the one that will save me. I just prefer to have more answers in hand then just one. But in the light of USZ vs FA, there are many times digging for an answer early in the game is critical. Hence why I more then likely won't ever drop Ponder, regardless of how much I dislike it.
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In all seriousness, the only pure advantage you get from going white is O-Ring. Black carries the mass removal, the discard to deal with planeswalkers, and the planeswalkers to deal with the board. Moorland Haunt isn't that great in a deck with few targets to exile to create more creatures, yes evasive they may be, but with so few targets, esp targets you don't want in your graveyard, it simply won't prove to be that great.
So we can't simply just overhaul the deck to facilate a single deck. We just need more weapons in these colors for that deck.
First of all, I'll admit that I forgot that Moorland Haunt required exiling as a cost Moving on, I'd like to know how you gathered that Oblivion Ring is the only "pure advantage" we obtain from white.
Black does carry mass removal, but Day of Judgment is far more efficient than both Black Sun's Zenith and Life's Finale.
Discard to deal with Planeswalkers... when we could just Oblivion Ring them. Interesting... and I'm sure we'll be running some discard in tandem with the excellent piece of removal.
The only planeswalkers that Blue/Black have access to are Karn Liberated, Jace, Memory Adept, Sorin Markov, and Liliana of the Veil. Of these, Liliana and Karn (in my opinion) are the only playable ones in our particular build. However, the introduction of white brings both Elspeth and Gideon. Elsepth does a beautiful, and I mean beautiful job of deterring aggressive strategies. This is especially true in red based aggro decks, for she can function as a maindeckable pseudo-Timely Reinforcements. Gideon is certainly higher in terms of power, for he can mitigate damage, remove creatures, and jump into the fray himself. That stopping power he provides is good versus just about any matchup, and is definitely an upgrade from Liliana if you asked me.
Now, I'm not suggesting that we add white just for RDW. I feel as though Gideon Jura, Oblivion Ring, and Day of Judgment all provide some upgrades in various departments throughout the deck. Not to mention, we get some sweet sideboard cards as well
Snapcaster can still flashback Ponder. Yes it'll be in the Main phase but that isnt to say that Ponder is worse then a instant due to Snapcaster. Also understand that Vision of Beyond will rarely if ever hit a 3 for 1 unless you have a maindeck'd jace or you are facing an opponent that self mills. Sure, ponder is no Preordain, but it does atm at least outclass Vision of Beyond for the scope that it can achieve at any point in the game.
Counterspell suite looks fine, personnaly if I was running 4 hard counters and 4 soft counters I would probably use the negate slots for either the discard/threats/or removal. But again that is a personal preference.
I know that snappy can flashback ponder, but it sort of defeats the purpose of the card IMO. Also I know that visions will only always be a cantrip, but it is the best way to get instant and cheap value out of SCM. I am going to test it this way and test ponder to figure if its better or worse.
As for my counterspells if we had duress still I would totally take out the negates, but other than counterspells we have not way to deal with artifact or enchantments other than bounce.
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Wow, way to only respond to one sentence in the entire post. I guess that means I'm right.
Obviously you don't draw a billion cards. But if you need one answer to something late in the game, it doesn't matter if you draw ten cards or two, if the two are what you need. Also you're playing the card and flashing it back, making it resilient to counterspells, and it requires less blue mana to play. Preferring to draw seven random cards as opposed to two good ones is just Timmy kicking in.
This is just an afterthought though. I'm not suggesting Alchemy is more powerful than USZ in the late game, because it isn't. So I'm done talking about this. If you want to address my actual points feel free.
I'll tell you what I think about Forbidden Alchemy as it pertains to the deck I am constructing and play testing.
I have experience with a legacy deck called "solidarity" which basically plays a bunch of instant spells and abuses the stack to create a lethal Brain Freeze and mill your opponent dead. This deck uses a similar card to Forbidden Alchemy called Impulse. While it's not exactly the same they serve the same function, to dig and continue and complete the combo.
When I play my permission list, I am not really going to look forward to doing a hail mary type of play and blast a Forbidden Alchemy in order to try and grab something at the moment I might need.
The permission style deck should have a base of cards that overlap each other in order to solve board position problems, and eventually take control of the game. The only thing I am worried about is drawing more cards at the end of my opponents turn, and getting maximum value out of my cards, possibly 2-1's.
Then at some point, their hand is exhausted and mine is not. Then you win. Not by having X card or digging for X card, but allowing the deck to flow as it should and to acquire more and more cards.
However this is just pertaining to my deck, and how I want to play it. I notice a lot of variations popping up. Forbidden Alchemy might be better served in these lists. A lot of people like to do 6 drop with mana leak back up and consider that a viable strategy. Battle cruiser magic I think it's called. Which can work, however I don't like to win off the back of variance. Like someone saying oh man if I would have just draw X card after you played Grave Titan, I would have beat you. I'll just survive until you have nothing left of a hand and close the game with lantern beats. It won't even matter if you top deck an answer to my creature, because I'll have mana to spare and a grip of counter magic or removal.
I hope I-N-S gets back into the Standard Arena, he could contribute a ton to this thread.
First of all, I'll admit that I forgot that Moorland Haunt required exiling as a cost Moving on, I'd like to know how you gathered that Oblivion Ring is the only "pure advantage" we obtain from white.
Black does carry mass removal, but Day of Judgment is far more efficient than both Black Sun's Zenith and Life's Finale.
Discard to deal with Planeswalkers... when we could just Oblivion Ring them. Interesting... and I'm sure we'll be running some discard in tandem with the excellent piece of removal.
The only planeswalkers that Blue/Black have access to are Karn Liberated, Jace, Memory Adept, Sorin Markov, and Liliana of the Veil. Of these, Liliana and Karn (in my opinion) are the only playable ones in our particular build. However, the introduction of white brings both Elspeth and Gideon. Elsepth does a beautiful, and I mean beautiful job of deterring aggressive strategies. This is especially true in red based aggro decks, for she can function as a maindeckable pseudo-Timely Reinforcements. Gideon is certainly higher in terms of power, for he can mitigate damage, remove creatures, and jump into the fray himself. That stopping power he provides is good versus just about any matchup, and is definitely an upgrade from Liliana if you asked me.
Now, I'm not suggesting that we add white just for RDW. I feel as though Gideon Jura, Oblivion Ring, and Day of Judgment all provide some upgrades in various departments throughout the deck. Not to mention, we get some sweet sideboard cards as well
Ah, this is the stuff I live for I swear, good honest debating.
My personal viewpoint on how O-ring is the only pure advantage we obtain from white. For starters I'll go ahead and attack the most obvious. By splashing white we do for all intents and purposes alter the flow of the deck. There is simply no way around it. You cannot possibly say with the current dual lands we have at our disposal, that having an opening hand of 1 glacial fortess and one b/w dual land is the same as one island and one b/w dual land. Not saying that that will happen everytime obviously, but with the addition of a 3rd color you DO stubly change the flow of the deck. Now with the obvious out of the way we can get to the real meat.
You compared mass removal spells, DoJ and BSZ. It's easy to see why one would prefer DoJ over BSZ, at the same cost BSZ can only kill x/2s where as DoJ can kill pretty much anything and everything on the board baring special effects i.e. industructable. However that is strictly where DoJ is superior and nothing more. BSZ simply put has more reach by negating regeneration and completely ignoring Industructable. And in an unknown meta where there lies a very capable 5/3 flyer that can become industructable with merely a human around, it might possibly make a huge difference. Also note that due to how the DoJ resolves, that same angel will not be dead if it were used. Obviously a VERY extreme case but it is a very valid case.
Now the case for Planeswalkers. Both Gideon and Elspeth are very capable planeswalkers, I for one am very much appreciative of them. They both have won me games. While Liliana has yet to prove herself or for the most part ANY black planeswalker has yet to prove itself, it is fair to argue that Liliana is more of the type of planeswalker we would want and surprisingly that is due to her discard ability. Out of the 3 it could very easily be argued that not only does Liliana have the ability to IMMEDIATELY influence the game state at that very moment, she also has more REACH then the other two. Liliana can strip a card from your opponent's hand or deal with an Industructable (note that key word comes up again ) or a hexproof target, which with the recent set seems to be becoming more prevelant of an ability. Of course Gideon can also kill a creature the turn he comes out, he can even become a very dangerous sword bearer with the sword package and yes, Elspeth's ultimate can swing games. But in hindsight we don't want to focus so much on the possible, or the theoritical, but more on exactly what we need at that moment. Liliana provides two very dangerous abilities coming out of the gate while also being far cheaper then the two aforementioned planeswalkers. Again this is not to say that they aren't good, or even go as far as not saying they aren't made for this deck. I simply believe that for what we are trying to acheive, Liliana is simply the better bet.
Now anything we get from white, we can get from blue or black or the swords that we plan on using, we have several cards that produce tokens to deal with aggro (Grave Titan and freinds), cards that can effectively deal with artifacts being cast or on the board (Steel Sabotage), and still have the purity of having black and blue themselves in CA denial through amazing removal, discard, and counters, CA for ourselves in Think Twice, Snapcaster, USZ, Consecrated Sphnix, and some of the best finishers in the game, Frost and Grave Titan.
Now then, please don't think I am bashing your idea of trying to add white to the deck. It does have it's advantages, but the question we must ask ourselves is this, should we fundementally alter the deck in such a way to include more answers? Or would we be better off keeping it simple and attempt to test more of the current card pool for answers we have yet to discover?
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First of all, I'll admit that I forgot that Moorland Haunt required exiling as a cost Moving on, I'd like to know how you gathered that Oblivion Ring is the only "pure advantage" we obtain from white.
Black does carry mass removal, but Day of Judgment is far more efficient than both Black Sun's Zenith and Life's Finale.
Discard to deal with Planeswalkers... when we could just Oblivion Ring them. Interesting... and I'm sure we'll be running some discard in tandem with the excellent piece of removal.
The only planeswalkers that Blue/Black have access to are Karn Liberated, Jace, Memory Adept, Sorin Markov, and Liliana of the Veil. Of these, Liliana and Karn (in my opinion) are the only playable ones in our particular build. However, the introduction of white brings both Elspeth and Gideon. Elsepth does a beautiful, and I mean beautiful job of deterring aggressive strategies. This is especially true in red based aggro decks, for she can function as a maindeckable pseudo-Timely Reinforcements. Gideon is certainly higher in terms of power, for he can mitigate damage, remove creatures, and jump into the fray himself. That stopping power he provides is good versus just about any matchup, and is definitely an upgrade from Liliana if you asked me.
Now, I'm not suggesting that we add white just for RDW. I feel as though Gideon Jura, Oblivion Ring, and Day of Judgment all provide some upgrades in various departments throughout the deck. Not to mention, we get some sweet sideboard cards as well
These are all fair points, but these points are leading you out of this thread.
This thread is for UB Draw Go, not Esper Tap Out Control (the deck you seem to want to want to be playing). I'm sure you can find an Esper Solar Flare or Esper Control thread elsewhere, or make your own if there isn't one immediately available.
Omfgthetank, all valid points, sans the emphasis on Indestructable and Regeneration in your counterarguments against the choice of Sweepers and my comparison of Gideon and Elspeth to Liliana. I feel as though Hexproof is the keyword to keep in mind the most when building decks, for it is on one of the most hyped cards of the set (Geist of Saint Traft) and generally more popular right now when it comes to playability. The only case of Regeneration that I see being truly relevant is Thrun, the Last Troll, but time will tell. As for Liliana, I have no doubt that she will be a great planeswalker. However, we have to think about whether or not she is worth the collateral damage from her discarding spell, and whether or not she is worth it at a one-of. With her amazing 3cmc status, I'd think that she would be a three-of, at least, if she were really that good. So far as the splash, I feel as though making our curve consist of only single color spells in the early game would most certainly be optimal and smooth. Then, we would max out on fastlands and the enemy dual. The rest would be filled with about 9 basics to fuel the Core Set lands and 5 more Core Set dual lands.
These are all fair points, but these points are leading you out of this thread.
This thread is for UB Draw Go, not Esper Tap Out Control (the deck you seem to want to want to be playing). I'm sure you can find an Esper Solar Flare or Esper Control thread elsewhere, or make your own if there isn't one immediately available.
I am simply presenting something that could very well improve the deck. It's no secret that our deck has trouble dealing with permanents outside of creatures. If anything, I would splash solely for Oblivion Ring at a 3-of, for I feel as though that will give this deck the versatility it needs from losing temporary solutions to problem permanents (Into the Roil). Not to mention, there will be an upgrade in sweepers and a better aggro matchup game 1 and post-board. If the majority feels as though Esper is not worth going for, I'll gladly make another thread.
Omfgthetank, all valid points, sans the emphasis on Indestructable and Regeneration in your counterarguments against the choice of Sweepers and my comparison of Gideon and Elspeth to Liliana. I feel as though Hexproof is the keyword to keep in mind the most when building decks, for it is on one of the most hyped cards of the set (Geist of Saint Traft) and generally more popular right now when it comes to playability. The only case of Regeneration that I see being truly relevant is Thrun, the Last Troll, but time will tell. As for Liliana, I have no doubt that she will be a great planeswalker. However, we have to think about whether or not she is worth the collateral damage from her discarding spell, and whether or not she is worth it at a one-of. With her amazing 3cmc status, I'd think that she would be a three-of, at least, if she were really that good. So far as the splash, I feel as though making our curve consist of only single color spells in the early game would most certainly be optimal and smooth. Then, we would max out on fastlands and the enemy dual. The rest would be filled with about 9 basics to fuel the Core Set lands and 5 more Core Set dual lands.
I am simply presenting something that could very well improve the deck. It's no secret that our deck has trouble dealing with permanents outside of creatures. If anything, I would splash solely for Oblivion Ring at a 3-of, for I feel as though that will give this deck the versatility it needs from losing temporary solutions to problem permanents (Into the Roil). Not to mention, there will be an upgrade in sweepers and a better aggro matchup game 1 and post-board. If the majority feels as though Esper is not worth going for, I'll gladly make another thread.
True that Hexproof is key, but obviously the sweepers dont care about hexproof. Also Liliana deals with that very well. Another thing is that even though her discard hurts us as well, with the addition of our discard spells, counters, and draw, we mitigate the pain. Trust me, I had reservations about her as well and even in my own list I forsook her for the sword package.
Another reason as to why I would rather have BSZ vs DoJ is that like it or not, people will be playing werewolves, can it become a t1 deck? Considering the flipped cards die to a lone rachet bomb I can't imagine it will, however, werewolves have access to Full Moon's rise, which i can't possibly fathom people will be running without it seeing as how vulnerable werewolves can be. So in light of this possibility at least this early in the meta, I can't imagine not running BSZ, and then running both BSZ and DoJ becomes a hinderance.
I will also agree that O-ring really does help against non creature permanents, which even from the get go I realized we would have trouble with. But again to go so far and say, "we should splash a third color for O-ring" just seems like jumping ship too quickly. So far we have been able to come up with tools that can deal with the enchantments, the artifacts, and even planeswalkers. Are they as effective as O-Ring? definately not b/c O-ring was kindof designed as a catch all. But am I saying that we should ignore the white splash strictly for O-ring? Def not, if it comes down to it, and we simply cannont deal with certain permanents, Planeswalkers being on the top of that list, then we will simply have to evolve the deck into that paradigm. But until then we will continue looking for answers in the spectrum of cards we have arrogantly placed ourselves in until all hope is lost. Sometimes you can find a diamond in the rough.
Your mana curve looks a lot like mine. Do you REALLY feel the need to play so many lands? I feel flooded at 23 and I rather draw more threats then lands that I don't need.
Also on Forbidden Alchemy, does it provide you that much compared to ponder? Sure it can possibly enable Snapcaster, and it does have one more dig while allowing you to drop cards you MIGHT not need but the pain of having to drop something you could use really hurts. I mean sure there are a lot of times I can't stand ponder but at least then you have the advantage just shuffling. I just feel I rather not have to dump answers.
The Titan Forge idea was just that, an idea. No need to get all antsy about it. It wasn't a Spirit Lantern versus Titan Forge comment, it was strictly, "hey, idea, titan forge, debate." And we did, and it was along the same lines as the Abomination, sure we are a draw go deck but we can't have things that take up to 3 turns to get online or require a huge mana investment.
I would also suggest you just mainboard some swords. Their sheer power simply cannot be denied. Feast and Famine provide more control and allow us to push harder then normal and War and Peace turn it into a race. Both of them scream answer it or lose the game. No one wants to see a resolved Sword.
Its a permission deck fueled by draw spells, the sooner I reach the threshhold where i can counter a spell and draw eot the better. Additionally in any build with blue sun's zenith or forbidden alchemy reaching higher mana counts is definetly important. Its also important to note just how awesome those two spells interact.
Blue sun's zenith obviously compares pretty well to jace's ingenuity, but because of the shuffle clause you can get away with less then 4 and still chain them. THIS is why alchemy is so good, not only can it find a counterspell if thats what im digging for, but if i havent found a zenith yet, it def helps, especially with the flashback being an option late game.
Also I wasnt trying to be a douche with what I said about titan forge, I was just pointing out that really it just does a poor lantern spirit impersonation(obviously Im a fan of that card) and I see no reason to run it over the spirits.
Lastly, while I am considering a creature based sideboard which would probably include some blades I cant believe you would seriously suggest adding blades to my list. I run three lantern spirits as finishers...thats it haha.
I am simply presenting something that could very well improve the deck. It's no secret that our deck has trouble dealing with permanents outside of creatures. If anything, I would splash solely for Oblivion Ring at a 3-of, for I feel as though that will give this deck the versatility it needs from losing temporary solutions to problem permanents (Into the Roil). Not to mention, there will be an upgrade in sweepers and a better aggro matchup game 1 and post-board. If the majority feels as though Esper is not worth going for, I'll gladly make another thread.
Its a U/b drawgo thread...but half the decks in here are playing like 8 finishers and someone wants to chastise you for suggesting a white splash for a powerful removal spell...
Can we not get caught up in the whole "this deck is THIS, that deck is THAT" crap. I personally want to create as powerful a deck as possible for this strategy, if that meant adoptng white/red/green as splashes than I would not be opposed. If a draw go build was more viable with any color other then black as its secondary color I would be posting that HERE in this thread. The point is to evoke discussion, if compelling evidence actually suggests thats the case, then why in the world would you keep playing U/b drawgo?
Additionally, the same concept applies to spells, if a spell isnt instant speed but is powerful enough to be played as answer (cough Black Sun's Zenith cough) then why wouldnt you? That applies for any card, and while I dont think oblivion ring is going to do anything for me that dissipate/rebuttal wont who knows, I could be wrong.
Obviously its best in strategies where you expect things to get through because you yourself are tapping out, so chances are its the wrong answer anyways, but dont tell someone to leave a thread for making a suggestion.
Did you ever try the card Snapcaster Mage? 3 Blue Sun's Zenith will never be right, 1 is the line. 13 counter spells and you didn't try to fit any Negates in? Soren...you don't need to test to know he's terrible. Jace? You want to mill your opponent as a win condition? Another very bad inclusion to the deck in my opinion. Just 3 Distress? No Despise? No Liliana to play along with the synergy of the hand disruption? No Surgical Extraction Maindeck for after you Distress to mutilate their hand?
It honestly looks like you aimlessly included a lot of decent blue and black cards to control your adversary.
I know this wasnt directed at me, but I have to adress the statement about USZ. The only decklist thats won (to my knowledge)anything worth noting in the past year or so in standard that was a true drawgo deck was played by I Never Smile, and it featured FOUR Jace's Ingenuitys... notice anything kindve similar about these cards? Think twice is good, but a permission deck wins through attrition, that means you need to draw a greater amount of cards than your opponent to take over. You achieve this through playing powerful instant speed draw spells. USZ is about as good as it gets right now, IT is your real finisher, not some dumb sphinx you tapout for hoping youll draw the next turn.
Seriously, why are people playing consecrated sphinx in this deck? The whole point of the deck is to maximize "not tapping out" to generate a wall of counters by playing instant speed draw spells. It is totally out of place in this strategy.
Gideon, oblivion ring, and DoJ are powerful cards, but I don't think they have any particular synergy with this deck. This deck is more like the dralnu de louvre decks that existed back in RAV-TSP.
Seriously, why are people playing consecrated sphinx in this deck? The whole point of the deck is to maximize "not tapping out" to generate a wall of counters by playing instant speed draw spells. It is totally out of place in this strategy.
I agreed with your above post except for this part. You essentially have to tap out to actually win the game. If we have a legit flash threat it would be better but such doesn't exist in this format.
my card draw suite is like this, and I believe it is close to optimal
4 vision of beyond/ponder
4 think twice
2 blue sun's zenith
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Seriously, why are people playing consecrated sphinx in this deck? The whole point of the deck is to maximize "not tapping out" to generate a wall of counters by playing instant speed draw spells. It is totally out of place in this strategy.
Because 90% of games where Sphinx resolves, I win. This deck wins by card advantage, no? And when I have 11 lands out, I'm pretty comfortable playing a Sphinx. Especially when I know can still Snapcast that Dissipate in my graveyard if my opponent tries to say something about it next turn. If your Sphinx survives to the opponent's draw step, it's a 3 for 1. And if it lasts a few turns, you've won the game. Think of it like this: USZ gives you your cards in a hurry. For 6 mana, the same you'd invest in a sphinx, you get 3 cards right now. For that same 6 mana, you get 4 cards over 2 turns. You also get something that, with the way Magic has evolved, is absolutely invaluable: board presence.
So that's why I play Sphinx and suggest that everyone else do the same. Because he's awesome. Card advantage and Titan-esque board presence (in the air, I might add) in one convenient package.
Also, just because this is the only post I weighed in on, doesn't mean it's the only one I'm paying attention to. As far as a white splash, I think it's simply unnecessary at this point in time. If, however, such a threat arises that we can only deal with it in White, we'll re-examine the necessity and and re-evaluate the effectiveness of House Dimir in Standard. Until such a time, however, let's keep this discussion to U/B.
By the way: I really hope this doesn't come across as a rejection of those ideas. I simply think that another thread, at this time, would be more prudent simply because this is the U/B thread, and thus no place to discuss an Esper deck. In fact, if someone starts an Esper thread, I'll be excitedly joining that conversation.
I agreed with your above post except for this part. You essentially have to tap out to actually win the game. If we have a legit flash threat it would be better but such doesn't exist in this format.
my card draw suite is like this, and I believe it is close to optimal
4 vision of beyond/ponder
4 think twice
2 blue sun's zenith
Thanks, typically I get something out of your posts so I would love to hear some things about various builds from you.
I agree that a flash target would be best, but since one that i want to play as a wincon isnt available ive opted play lantern spirit. Theres two reasons I like that card so much
1. It requires minimal dedication as far as the mana to support it goes.
2. Its an evasive 2 power flier that can protect itself.
I havent actually gotten around to playing visions yet, but to me its a card that I would want to try to make work as much as possible, and i would def be playing snapcaster mage with it if i did. I think visions/think twice/ forbidden alchemy/ is a really strong engine actually, but its not anything ive actually tried out yet.
How often do you actually draw three off of visions?
Obviously I love blue suns zenith, but if visions can double as a cantrip as well as a late game ingenuity I could see myself getting behind that card.
I also dont think ponder is nearly as bad as people keep making it out to be. Obviously its awesome at fixing draws, and I like that with alchemy a lot of times i can put cards i dont want from a ponder into the yard.
Because 90% of games where Sphinx resolves, I win. This deck wins by card advantage, no? And when I have 11 lands out, I'm pretty comfortable playing a Sphinx. Especially when I know can still Snapcast that Dissipate in my graveyard if my opponent tries to say something about it next turn. If your Sphinx survives to the opponent's draw step, it's a 3 for 1. And if it lasts a few turns, you've won the game. Think of it like this: USZ gives you your cards in a hurry. For 6 mana, the same you'd invest in a sphinx, you get 3 cards right now. For that same 6 mana, you get 4 cards over 2 turns. You also get something that, with the way Magic has evolved, is absolutely invaluable: board presence.
So that's why I play Sphinx and suggest that everyone else do the same. Because he's awesome. Card advantage and Titan-esque board presence (in the air, I might add) in one convenient package.
Also, just because this is the only post I weighed in on, doesn't mean it's the only one I'm paying attention to. As far as a white splash, I think it's simply unnecessary at this point in time. If, however, such a threat arises that we can only deal with it in White, we'll re-examine the necessity and and re-evaluate the effectiveness of House Dimir in Standard. Until such a time, however, let's keep this discussion to U/B.
By the way: I really hope this doesn't come across as a rejection of those ideas. I simply think that another thread, at this time, would be more prudent simply because this is the U/B thread, and thus no place to discuss an Esper deck. In fact, if someone starts an Esper thread, I'll definitely be in on the conversation, as I have a few ideas of my own.
Thats all fine and dandy, but what happens when the opposition is ready for your back up counter magic?
What if I know you plan on running out a sphinx? Obviously if youve been stockpilling lands instead of playing him on turn 6, it doesnt take a genious to figure out you plan to back him up. As another control deck, I anticipate this and I too prepare to engage in a counter war. Even if we have the same amount of counters, youre paying six mana to cast that card putting strain on your resources ensuring that if need be I can go one counter further than you. Three mana can make all the difference in resolving your wincon, and I dont want resolving the way i plan to win(creature wise anyways) to be HOW I win. I want to lock the other player out of the game, and then play my finisher.
Additionally, a cheaper wincon lets you start applying preassure to other control decks IF the situation warrants it.
Btw, I agree that its best to keep the threads from becoming to convoluted when people really start getting way off topic, I was just stating that I thought a white splash could be viable.
Thanks, typically I get something out of your posts so I would love to hear some things about various builds from you.
I agree that a flash target would be best, but since one that i want to play as a wincon isnt available ive opted play lantern spirit. Theres two reasons I like that card so much
1. It requires minimal dedication as far as the mana to support it goes.
2. Its an evasive 2 power flier that can protect itself.
I havent actually gotten around to playing visions yet, but to me its a card that I would want to try to make work as much as possible, and i would def be playing snapcaster mage with it if i did. I think visions/think twice/ forbidden alchemy/ is a really strong engine actually, but its not anything ive actually tried out yet.
How often do you actually draw three off of visions?
Obviously I love blue suns zenith, but if visions can double as a cantrip as well as a late game ingenuity I could see myself getting behind that card.
I also dont think ponder is nearly as bad as people keep making it out to be. Obviously its awesome at fixing draws, and I like that with alchemy a lot of times i can put cards i dont want from a ponder into the yard.
Visions is honestly just an instant speed cantrip to go with snapcaster mage. As for lantern spirit I don't believe its good enough to do the job. I know it almost never dies, but it is just so painfully slow that I couldn't use it. I would rather just wear my opponent down and drop a wurmcoil engine to seal the deal.
As for alchemy I really don't care for it much because its worse than the other cards that I run. If you build a deck around it I believe its quite powerful, although I don't see any big synergy yet...It could come next set.
Ponder vs Vision really just comes down to vision being an instant. In my deck it will never draw three, but it will give me a 56 card deck with the possibility of being tacked on to a snapcaster mage if I have nothing better to do.
Also I've honestly been thinking about trying Esper colors just so that I can use White Sun's zenith as a win condition since it is an instant.
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Why has Ludevic's Test Subject not seen any discussion in this thread? The thing draw/go has always had issues with is aggro. This guy is pretty solid as it doesn't die to burn anymore blocks alot and has the end of turn activations.
would be optimal as it lets you drop threats earlier and then just when you have the mana sink it. instead of having to tap out for grave titan or wait till t13 to cast it.. Its also a 1-2 turn clock when it flips just like titan. I think it is a far superior card in this deck. I have been playing this for quite a while and was stoked when i saw mage and it spoiled!
The Test Subject is a 12-mana fatty without evasion and does not generate any card advantage. Plus, you need to protect it for at least 5 turns until it can start winning the game.
The Test Subject is a 12-mana fatty without evasion and does not generate any card advantage. Plus, you need to protect it for at least 5 turns until it can start winning the game.
Trample is Evasion... It creates a blocker to get you through the early game and an optional win con. Notice i did not suggest cutting grave titan completely rather dropping the curve.. biggest thing with it is that it comes down t2-t6 and is effective or if it comes down t13 it is active in a turn and half.
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Modern: UWThe End ForetoldUW
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I have been testing it the past week and its been performing fairly well in most matchups haven't had too much trouble with all the card draw and filtering with 25 lands but it's something to consider.
My meta right now basically consists of the following.
50% UW Blade
30% Birthing Pod
10% Mirror
5% Tempered Steel
5% RDW
This one guy I keep playing against keeps pwning me with Shrine of Burning Rage so now I side in Ratchet Bomb and Spellskite
which to be honest isn't enough I hear some people in this thread are using Steel Sabotage I might actually give that a try because apart from the shrine the matchup is a walk in the park.
Against UW blade Liliana is good at dealing with Geist which can be problematic people aren't running Invisible Stalker because it's alot worse than most people think apart from that the matchup is fairly even I'd say 60-40 their favour before boarding.
Against UW I side in Phantasmal Image and Consecrated Sphinx.
Image is sweet copying Snapcaster or killing Geist or copying hero etc the list goes on.
Birthing Pod is pretty straightforward don't let them resolve it and u win
Against pod I side in Surgical Extraction, Image and Ratchet Bomb.
Tempered Steel haven't tested too much but if you play correctly its a fairly easy matchup of course if they get the nut draw then so be it.
Boarding against Tempered Steel Dismember Phantasmal Image and Ratchet Bomb. Image is good against that Mikaeus dude which is bad anyway I have no idea why people think that's good in tempered steel maybe that says something about the quality of opponents im facing
Yeh when I can be bothered I'll post exactly what I side out in each matchup
Interesting. If Phoenix picks up speed in the meta, disspates might be critical. I really want to get everyone who is running Lantern Spirits on board with the Sword package, the swords just provide SO MUCH card advantage.
Your mana curve looks a lot like mine. Do you REALLY feel the need to play so many lands? I feel flooded at 23 and I rather draw more threats then lands that I don't need.
Also on Forbidden Alchemy, does it provide you that much compared to ponder? Sure it can possibly enable Snapcaster, and it does have one more dig while allowing you to drop cards you MIGHT not need but the pain of having to drop something you could use really hurts. I mean sure there are a lot of times I can't stand ponder but at least then you have the advantage just shuffling. I just feel I rather not have to dump answers.
The Titan Forge idea was just that, an idea. No need to get all antsy about it. It wasn't a Spirit Lantern versus Titan Forge comment, it was strictly, "hey, idea, titan forge, debate." And we did, and it was along the same lines as the Abomination, sure we are a draw go deck but we can't have things that take up to 3 turns to get online or require a huge mana investment.
I would also suggest you just mainboard some swords. Their sheer power simply cannot be denied. Feast and Famine provide more control and allow us to push harder then normal and War and Peace turn it into a race. Both of them scream answer it or lose the game. No one wants to see a resolved Sword.
Standard
U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH
G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Treasure Mage
1 Darksteel Sentinel
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Lantern Spirit
1 Azure Mage
Spells - 21
4 Think Twice
3 Ponder
4 Mana Leak
4 Dissipate
1 Negate
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
2 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Inkmoth Nexus
7 Island
4 Swamp
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Treasure Mage
1 Darksteel Sentinel
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Lantern Spirit
1 Azure Mage
4 Think Twice
3 Ponder
4 Mana Leak
4 Dissipate
1 Negate
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
2 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Inkmoth Nexus
7 Island
4 Swamp
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Black Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Trinket Mage
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 Witchbane Orb
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Steel Sabotage
Here's what I'm working with right now. I tweaked the numbers in the board a little bit, and shipped Flashfreeze since I found myself never siding it in, even against monored and monogreen. I'd almost always rather be able to counter an artifact or Dismember or splashed spell. Ratchet Bomb is at 2 right now, to help stop Werewolves and token strategies cold; also, it helps against specific permanents we can't deal with (resolved Tempered Steel or Shrine, for instance). Witchbane Orbs also work well against RDW-type strategies, drastically lowering the effectiveness of Shrines and Chandra, as well as general burn; and if they want to try to burn our Sentinel to death, good luck
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!
4 visions of beyond
4 think twice
2 USZ
Visions is for snappy because ponder is unfortunately a sorcery. I'm still not sold on the rest of the deck though. I might try this for my counterspells.
4 mana leak
4 dissipate
2 negate
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Buried Ruin
7 Island
5 Swamp
Creatures 11
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Azure Mage
1 Lantern Spirit
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Darksteel Sentinel
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
Planeswalkers 1
1 Liliana of the Veil
Instants & Sorceries 20
3 Ponder
4 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doom Blade
1 Dismember
4 Dissipate
2 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Steel Sabotage
1 Negate
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trinket Mage
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Life's Finale
This is based off of El_Presidente's list; to be blunt I cut the MD Negate and a Sphinx for the Swords. Still, the list does have 9 cheap(er) creatures + 4 Inkmoth Nexus to equip to. One piece of tech I am a little proud of is Buried Ruin - it can recur Swords, Solemn, Wurmcoil, and most of all Darksteel Sentinel when it dies to Dismember. I didn't think Drownyard was insane anyway, and having MD outs to Acidic Slime blowing up Swords is important to me. Sentinel actually looks amazing when equipped with a Sword - bashing AND blocking for 5, with protections, while being indestructible? That's just absurdly good. I think cutting a Sphinx is fine since Swords threaten to close games, too, but the Negate I am missing. I also found room for a single Dismember, as I thought 3 removal spells was just too low, and while I could cut the Dismember for the Negate, I think the additional kill spell is a little more important than the counter. I could definitely be wrong - but that's what testing is for.
I'll be testing this w/Presidente's SB, but -1 Spellbomb, +1 Negate (since I can recur Spellbomb with Buried Ruin if necessary, and I do want that Negate post-SB at least).
Wow, way to only respond to one sentence in the entire post. I guess that means I'm right.
Obviously you don't draw a billion cards. But if you need one answer to something late in the game, it doesn't matter if you draw ten cards or two, if the two are what you need. Also you're playing the card and flashing it back, making it resilient to counterspells, and it requires less blue mana to play. Preferring to draw seven random cards as opposed to two good ones is just Timmy kicking in.
This is just an afterthought though. I'm not suggesting Alchemy is more powerful than USZ in the late game, because it isn't. So I'm done talking about this. If you want to address my actual points feel free.
Let's not troll and keep everything civil
Ooooh, Buried Ruin... I like! Good find. I didn't even think about that for this list. I will definitely be cutting one of my Drownyards (down to 2 now) for this puppy.
Let me know how the swords work out. Part of me wants to be like "NO WHAT ARE YOU DOING", but if it works for you, I'll try it for myself. I think I see the swords as a little too much happening on my turn, and that I'd rather leave my creatures on defense (thus losing one of the main advantages of the swords). But like I said, if it works, I'll give it a shot. Cuz who doesn't want to smack their opponent to death with an Azure Mage?
Also, just letting you guys know in advance (in case y'all want to go ahead and test), my next piece of experimental tech (in case Witchbane Orb sucks) is Life's Finale. Resolving one of those against a control list can mean game over, since ripping all their finishers away basically leaves them unable to win.
Edit:
To respond to the rest of your post, I don't like Alchemy because this deck only has a few win conditions (and it aims to protect those), so the idea of milling away my Consecrated Sphinx so that I can grab a Doom Blade seems unappealing to me. Preferring to draw seven random cards is knowing how powerful my deck is and that chances are, I'll be able to find my answer in those 7 cards, or find another card that can.
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!
Snapcaster can still flashback Ponder. Yes it'll be in the Main phase but that isnt to say that Ponder is worse then a instant due to Snapcaster. Also understand that Vision of Beyond will rarely if ever hit a 3 for 1 unless you have a maindeck'd jace or you are facing an opponent that self mills. Sure, ponder is no Preordain, but it does atm at least outclass Vision of Beyond for the scope that it can achieve at any point in the game.
Counterspell suite looks fine, personnaly if I was running 4 hard counters and 4 soft counters I would probably use the negate slots for either the discard/threats/or removal. But again that is a personal preference.
Damn I completely forgot about Buried Ruin. That is a pretty nifty trick to a more heavy on the artifacts list. Honestly it might be good just to have at least one even in a Sword only list. Sideboarded games 2 and 3, your opponent, if not playing white, will most likely have some sort of artifact destruction spell. Buried Ruin can possibly save the day on that respect. Good Find.
Don't take offense, some people just have certain preferences. Honestly I can see where the both of you are coming from, hard draw versus deeper sifting. Both have pros and both have cons. Like for me, I would almost always rather be able to draw all of them, then just get the one that will save me. I just prefer to have more answers in hand then just one. But in the light of USZ vs FA, there are many times digging for an answer early in the game is critical. Hence why I more then likely won't ever drop Ponder, regardless of how much I dislike it.
Standard
U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH
G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
First of all, I'll admit that I forgot that Moorland Haunt required exiling as a cost Moving on, I'd like to know how you gathered that Oblivion Ring is the only "pure advantage" we obtain from white.
Black does carry mass removal, but Day of Judgment is far more efficient than both Black Sun's Zenith and Life's Finale.
Discard to deal with Planeswalkers... when we could just Oblivion Ring them. Interesting... and I'm sure we'll be running some discard in tandem with the excellent piece of removal.
The only planeswalkers that Blue/Black have access to are Karn Liberated, Jace, Memory Adept, Sorin Markov, and Liliana of the Veil. Of these, Liliana and Karn (in my opinion) are the only playable ones in our particular build. However, the introduction of white brings both Elspeth and Gideon. Elsepth does a beautiful, and I mean beautiful job of deterring aggressive strategies. This is especially true in red based aggro decks, for she can function as a maindeckable pseudo-Timely Reinforcements. Gideon is certainly higher in terms of power, for he can mitigate damage, remove creatures, and jump into the fray himself. That stopping power he provides is good versus just about any matchup, and is definitely an upgrade from Liliana if you asked me.
Now, I'm not suggesting that we add white just for RDW. I feel as though Gideon Jura, Oblivion Ring, and Day of Judgment all provide some upgrades in various departments throughout the deck. Not to mention, we get some sweet sideboard cards as well
I know that snappy can flashback ponder, but it sort of defeats the purpose of the card IMO. Also I know that visions will only always be a cantrip, but it is the best way to get instant and cheap value out of SCM. I am going to test it this way and test ponder to figure if its better or worse.
As for my counterspells if we had duress still I would totally take out the negates, but other than counterspells we have not way to deal with artifact or enchantments other than bounce.
My list BTW:
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Grave Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
[29 other spells]
4 Dissipate
4 Think Twice
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Mana Leak
3 Dismember
2 Negate
2 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Despise
2 Disperse
1 Doom Blade
1 Black Sun's Zenith
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
1 Buried Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
8 Island
7 Swamp
1 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Despise
2 Flashfreeze
1 Go for the Throat
1 Negate
2 Steel Sabotage
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ratchet Bomb
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I'll tell you what I think about Forbidden Alchemy as it pertains to the deck I am constructing and play testing.
I have experience with a legacy deck called "solidarity" which basically plays a bunch of instant spells and abuses the stack to create a lethal Brain Freeze and mill your opponent dead. This deck uses a similar card to Forbidden Alchemy called Impulse. While it's not exactly the same they serve the same function, to dig and continue and complete the combo.
When I play my permission list, I am not really going to look forward to doing a hail mary type of play and blast a Forbidden Alchemy in order to try and grab something at the moment I might need.
The permission style deck should have a base of cards that overlap each other in order to solve board position problems, and eventually take control of the game. The only thing I am worried about is drawing more cards at the end of my opponents turn, and getting maximum value out of my cards, possibly 2-1's.
Then at some point, their hand is exhausted and mine is not. Then you win. Not by having X card or digging for X card, but allowing the deck to flow as it should and to acquire more and more cards.
However this is just pertaining to my deck, and how I want to play it. I notice a lot of variations popping up. Forbidden Alchemy might be better served in these lists. A lot of people like to do 6 drop with mana leak back up and consider that a viable strategy. Battle cruiser magic I think it's called. Which can work, however I don't like to win off the back of variance. Like someone saying oh man if I would have just draw X card after you played Grave Titan, I would have beat you. I'll just survive until you have nothing left of a hand and close the game with lantern beats. It won't even matter if you top deck an answer to my creature, because I'll have mana to spare and a grip of counter magic or removal.
I hope I-N-S gets back into the Standard Arena, he could contribute a ton to this thread.
Ah, this is the stuff I live for I swear, good honest debating.
My personal viewpoint on how O-ring is the only pure advantage we obtain from white. For starters I'll go ahead and attack the most obvious. By splashing white we do for all intents and purposes alter the flow of the deck. There is simply no way around it. You cannot possibly say with the current dual lands we have at our disposal, that having an opening hand of 1 glacial fortess and one b/w dual land is the same as one island and one b/w dual land. Not saying that that will happen everytime obviously, but with the addition of a 3rd color you DO stubly change the flow of the deck. Now with the obvious out of the way we can get to the real meat.
You compared mass removal spells, DoJ and BSZ. It's easy to see why one would prefer DoJ over BSZ, at the same cost BSZ can only kill x/2s where as DoJ can kill pretty much anything and everything on the board baring special effects i.e. industructable. However that is strictly where DoJ is superior and nothing more. BSZ simply put has more reach by negating regeneration and completely ignoring Industructable. And in an unknown meta where there lies a very capable 5/3 flyer that can become industructable with merely a human around, it might possibly make a huge difference. Also note that due to how the DoJ resolves, that same angel will not be dead if it were used. Obviously a VERY extreme case but it is a very valid case.
Now the case for Planeswalkers. Both Gideon and Elspeth are very capable planeswalkers, I for one am very much appreciative of them. They both have won me games. While Liliana has yet to prove herself or for the most part ANY black planeswalker has yet to prove itself, it is fair to argue that Liliana is more of the type of planeswalker we would want and surprisingly that is due to her discard ability. Out of the 3 it could very easily be argued that not only does Liliana have the ability to IMMEDIATELY influence the game state at that very moment, she also has more REACH then the other two. Liliana can strip a card from your opponent's hand or deal with an Industructable (note that key word comes up again ) or a hexproof target, which with the recent set seems to be becoming more prevelant of an ability. Of course Gideon can also kill a creature the turn he comes out, he can even become a very dangerous sword bearer with the sword package and yes, Elspeth's ultimate can swing games. But in hindsight we don't want to focus so much on the possible, or the theoritical, but more on exactly what we need at that moment. Liliana provides two very dangerous abilities coming out of the gate while also being far cheaper then the two aforementioned planeswalkers. Again this is not to say that they aren't good, or even go as far as not saying they aren't made for this deck. I simply believe that for what we are trying to acheive, Liliana is simply the better bet.
Now anything we get from white, we can get from blue or black or the swords that we plan on using, we have several cards that produce tokens to deal with aggro (Grave Titan and freinds), cards that can effectively deal with artifacts being cast or on the board (Steel Sabotage), and still have the purity of having black and blue themselves in CA denial through amazing removal, discard, and counters, CA for ourselves in Think Twice, Snapcaster, USZ, Consecrated Sphnix, and some of the best finishers in the game, Frost and Grave Titan.
Now then, please don't think I am bashing your idea of trying to add white to the deck. It does have it's advantages, but the question we must ask ourselves is this, should we fundementally alter the deck in such a way to include more answers? Or would we be better off keeping it simple and attempt to test more of the current card pool for answers we have yet to discover?
Standard
U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH
G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
These are all fair points, but these points are leading you out of this thread.
This thread is for UB Draw Go, not Esper Tap Out Control (the deck you seem to want to want to be playing). I'm sure you can find an Esper Solar Flare or Esper Control thread elsewhere, or make your own if there isn't one immediately available.
I am simply presenting something that could very well improve the deck. It's no secret that our deck has trouble dealing with permanents outside of creatures. If anything, I would splash solely for Oblivion Ring at a 3-of, for I feel as though that will give this deck the versatility it needs from losing temporary solutions to problem permanents (Into the Roil). Not to mention, there will be an upgrade in sweepers and a better aggro matchup game 1 and post-board. If the majority feels as though Esper is not worth going for, I'll gladly make another thread.
True that Hexproof is key, but obviously the sweepers dont care about hexproof. Also Liliana deals with that very well. Another thing is that even though her discard hurts us as well, with the addition of our discard spells, counters, and draw, we mitigate the pain. Trust me, I had reservations about her as well and even in my own list I forsook her for the sword package.
Another reason as to why I would rather have BSZ vs DoJ is that like it or not, people will be playing werewolves, can it become a t1 deck? Considering the flipped cards die to a lone rachet bomb I can't imagine it will, however, werewolves have access to Full Moon's rise, which i can't possibly fathom people will be running without it seeing as how vulnerable werewolves can be. So in light of this possibility at least this early in the meta, I can't imagine not running BSZ, and then running both BSZ and DoJ becomes a hinderance.
I will also agree that O-ring really does help against non creature permanents, which even from the get go I realized we would have trouble with. But again to go so far and say, "we should splash a third color for O-ring" just seems like jumping ship too quickly. So far we have been able to come up with tools that can deal with the enchantments, the artifacts, and even planeswalkers. Are they as effective as O-Ring? definately not b/c O-ring was kindof designed as a catch all. But am I saying that we should ignore the white splash strictly for O-ring? Def not, if it comes down to it, and we simply cannont deal with certain permanents, Planeswalkers being on the top of that list, then we will simply have to evolve the deck into that paradigm. But until then we will continue looking for answers in the spectrum of cards we have arrogantly placed ourselves in until all hope is lost. Sometimes you can find a diamond in the rough.
Standard
U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH
G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
Its a permission deck fueled by draw spells, the sooner I reach the threshhold where i can counter a spell and draw eot the better. Additionally in any build with blue sun's zenith or forbidden alchemy reaching higher mana counts is definetly important. Its also important to note just how awesome those two spells interact.
Blue sun's zenith obviously compares pretty well to jace's ingenuity, but because of the shuffle clause you can get away with less then 4 and still chain them. THIS is why alchemy is so good, not only can it find a counterspell if thats what im digging for, but if i havent found a zenith yet, it def helps, especially with the flashback being an option late game.
Also I wasnt trying to be a douche with what I said about titan forge, I was just pointing out that really it just does a poor lantern spirit impersonation(obviously Im a fan of that card) and I see no reason to run it over the spirits.
Lastly, while I am considering a creature based sideboard which would probably include some blades I cant believe you would seriously suggest adding blades to my list. I run three lantern spirits as finishers...thats it haha.
Its a U/b drawgo thread...but half the decks in here are playing like 8 finishers and someone wants to chastise you for suggesting a white splash for a powerful removal spell...
Can we not get caught up in the whole "this deck is THIS, that deck is THAT" crap. I personally want to create as powerful a deck as possible for this strategy, if that meant adoptng white/red/green as splashes than I would not be opposed. If a draw go build was more viable with any color other then black as its secondary color I would be posting that HERE in this thread. The point is to evoke discussion, if compelling evidence actually suggests thats the case, then why in the world would you keep playing U/b drawgo?
Additionally, the same concept applies to spells, if a spell isnt instant speed but is powerful enough to be played as answer (cough Black Sun's Zenith cough) then why wouldnt you? That applies for any card, and while I dont think oblivion ring is going to do anything for me that dissipate/rebuttal wont who knows, I could be wrong.
Obviously its best in strategies where you expect things to get through because you yourself are tapping out, so chances are its the wrong answer anyways, but dont tell someone to leave a thread for making a suggestion.
I know this wasnt directed at me, but I have to adress the statement about USZ. The only decklist thats won (to my knowledge)anything worth noting in the past year or so in standard that was a true drawgo deck was played by I Never Smile, and it featured FOUR Jace's Ingenuitys... notice anything kindve similar about these cards? Think twice is good, but a permission deck wins through attrition, that means you need to draw a greater amount of cards than your opponent to take over. You achieve this through playing powerful instant speed draw spells. USZ is about as good as it gets right now, IT is your real finisher, not some dumb sphinx you tapout for hoping youll draw the next turn.
Seriously, why are people playing consecrated sphinx in this deck? The whole point of the deck is to maximize "not tapping out" to generate a wall of counters by playing instant speed draw spells. It is totally out of place in this strategy.
I agreed with your above post except for this part. You essentially have to tap out to actually win the game. If we have a legit flash threat it would be better but such doesn't exist in this format.
my card draw suite is like this, and I believe it is close to optimal
4 vision of beyond/ponder
4 think twice
2 blue sun's zenith
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Because 90% of games where Sphinx resolves, I win. This deck wins by card advantage, no? And when I have 11 lands out, I'm pretty comfortable playing a Sphinx. Especially when I know can still Snapcast that Dissipate in my graveyard if my opponent tries to say something about it next turn. If your Sphinx survives to the opponent's draw step, it's a 3 for 1. And if it lasts a few turns, you've won the game. Think of it like this: USZ gives you your cards in a hurry. For 6 mana, the same you'd invest in a sphinx, you get 3 cards right now. For that same 6 mana, you get 4 cards over 2 turns. You also get something that, with the way Magic has evolved, is absolutely invaluable: board presence.
So that's why I play Sphinx and suggest that everyone else do the same. Because he's awesome. Card advantage and Titan-esque board presence (in the air, I might add) in one convenient package.
Also, just because this is the only post I weighed in on, doesn't mean it's the only one I'm paying attention to. As far as a white splash, I think it's simply unnecessary at this point in time. If, however, such a threat arises that we can only deal with it in White, we'll re-examine the necessity and and re-evaluate the effectiveness of House Dimir in Standard. Until such a time, however, let's keep this discussion to U/B.
By the way: I really hope this doesn't come across as a rejection of those ideas. I simply think that another thread, at this time, would be more prudent simply because this is the U/B thread, and thus no place to discuss an Esper deck. In fact, if someone starts an Esper thread, I'll be excitedly joining that conversation.
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!
Thanks, typically I get something out of your posts so I would love to hear some things about various builds from you.
I agree that a flash target would be best, but since one that i want to play as a wincon isnt available ive opted play lantern spirit. Theres two reasons I like that card so much
1. It requires minimal dedication as far as the mana to support it goes.
2. Its an evasive 2 power flier that can protect itself.
I havent actually gotten around to playing visions yet, but to me its a card that I would want to try to make work as much as possible, and i would def be playing snapcaster mage with it if i did. I think visions/think twice/ forbidden alchemy/ is a really strong engine actually, but its not anything ive actually tried out yet.
How often do you actually draw three off of visions?
Obviously I love blue suns zenith, but if visions can double as a cantrip as well as a late game ingenuity I could see myself getting behind that card.
I also dont think ponder is nearly as bad as people keep making it out to be. Obviously its awesome at fixing draws, and I like that with alchemy a lot of times i can put cards i dont want from a ponder into the yard.
Thats all fine and dandy, but what happens when the opposition is ready for your back up counter magic?
What if I know you plan on running out a sphinx? Obviously if youve been stockpilling lands instead of playing him on turn 6, it doesnt take a genious to figure out you plan to back him up. As another control deck, I anticipate this and I too prepare to engage in a counter war. Even if we have the same amount of counters, youre paying six mana to cast that card putting strain on your resources ensuring that if need be I can go one counter further than you. Three mana can make all the difference in resolving your wincon, and I dont want resolving the way i plan to win(creature wise anyways) to be HOW I win. I want to lock the other player out of the game, and then play my finisher.
Additionally, a cheaper wincon lets you start applying preassure to other control decks IF the situation warrants it.
Btw, I agree that its best to keep the threads from becoming to convoluted when people really start getting way off topic, I was just stating that I thought a white splash could be viable.
Visions is honestly just an instant speed cantrip to go with snapcaster mage. As for lantern spirit I don't believe its good enough to do the job. I know it almost never dies, but it is just so painfully slow that I couldn't use it. I would rather just wear my opponent down and drop a wurmcoil engine to seal the deal.
As for alchemy I really don't care for it much because its worse than the other cards that I run. If you build a deck around it I believe its quite powerful, although I don't see any big synergy yet...It could come next set.
Ponder vs Vision really just comes down to vision being an instant. In my deck it will never draw three, but it will give me a 56 card deck with the possibility of being tacked on to a snapcaster mage if I have nothing better to do.
Also I've honestly been thinking about trying Esper colors just so that I can use White Sun's zenith as a win condition since it is an instant.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I really think a creature suite of something like
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Ludevic's Test Subject
2 Grave Titan
would be optimal as it lets you drop threats earlier and then just when you have the mana sink it. instead of having to tap out for grave titan or wait till t13 to cast it.. Its also a 1-2 turn clock when it flips just like titan. I think it is a far superior card in this deck. I have been playing this for quite a while and was stoked when i saw mage and it spoiled!
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
The Test Subject is a 12-mana fatty without evasion and does not generate any card advantage. Plus, you need to protect it for at least 5 turns until it can start winning the game.
Trample is Evasion... It creates a blocker to get you through the early game and an optional win con. Notice i did not suggest cutting grave titan completely rather dropping the curve.. biggest thing with it is that it comes down t2-t6 and is effective or if it comes down t13 it is active in a turn and half.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW