Can't wait to begin testing this build. I think USZ is going to be discovered to be a lot better than people give it credit for. I'm also experimenting with Sorin to see whether he works in a "Draw-Go" build.
I always boarded it out personally in testing, usually to get 2 Negate's, I feel strong with Draw Go against pretty much every aggro deck ( there really isn't midrange in this format, Pod, Parallel Lives being more combo oriented, take out the few key spells and they become hopeless to win fast )
I don't know..Liliana doesn't really bring card advantage like we are in need of, and it's not the easiest to protect from aggro, the discard ability is nice with Mage but not to relevant. In the Control Mirror is still "meh" I usually can counter it and keep it at bay with Nexus's when it does slip in on the rare occasion. People only want to run 1-2, which means it doesn't hit early often the only time it's good...
I would not recommend this card for Blue Black Control. Mana Black Green Disruption Rock or Mono Black Control if those were decks.
Can't wait to begin testing this build. I think USZ is going to be discovered to be a lot better than people give it credit for. I'm also experimenting with Sorin to see whether he works in a "Draw-Go" build.
Did you ever try the card Snapcaster Mage? 3 Blue Sun's Zenith will never be right, 1 is the line. 13 counter spells and you didn't try to fit any Negates in? Soren...you don't need to test to know he's terrible. Jace? You want to mill your opponent as a win condition? Another very bad inclusion to the deck in my opinion. Just 3 Distress? No Despise? No Liliana to play along with the synergy of the hand disruption? No Surgical Extraction Maindeck for after you Distress to mutilate their hand?
It honestly looks like you aimlessly included a lot of decent blue and black cards to control your adversary.
It digs pretty deep, 4 cards will not be on the top of you deck, allowing you to really search for what you want.
Ratchet bomb maindeck is a misers catch all, I can see it not being in there in the future but in new format it seems good.
Early on Ghost Quater will give greedy people a hard time, it can also catch out some POD lists with their 3 colour nature.
I guess if werewolves or tokens are a common phenomena in your metagame, then Ratchet Bomb in the main could be good. I'll leave it up to you. As for Ghost Quarter... How does it give greedy people a hard time, precisely? It's not like this is a Cloudpost format, lol. You blow up their land, they get to search for whatever color they want and put it onto the battlefield, untapped I might add. Idk, seems terribad to me. You're down a land and they're... up one mana, if you use it on their turn. But if it works for you, let me know and I'll pick it up lol.
Quote from TreyTheTitan »
Did you ever try the card Snapcaster Mage? 3 Blue Sun's Zenith will never be right, 1 is the line. 13 counter spells and you didn't try to fit any Negates in? Soren...you don't need to test to know he's terrible. Jace? You want to mill your opponent as a win condition? Another very bad inclusion to the deck in my opinion. Just 3 Distress? No Despise? No Liliana to play along with the synergy of the hand disruption? No Surgical Extraction Maindeck for after you Distress to mutilate their hand?
It honestly looks like you aimlessly included a lot of decent blue and black cards to control your adversary.
A few points I agree on, and a few I don't. Yes, I would never include 3 USZ in this deck. Ever. Also, if you have 13 counters, I can only assume you're running something worse than Negate where Negate should be. Now, Sorin or Jace (not both, but one or the other) could be an interesting inclusion. I'd lean towards Sorin, for two reasons: he gains us life while killing weenies, and Mindslaver wins games. Jace, on the other hand, draws us cards while providing an alt win con that synergizes well with another of ours. We'd just draw with him until it's time to kill them with it, of course, but that seems like a viable strategy. Also, if they want to bring mill hate in from the sideboard, they're more than welcome to.
I always boarded it out personally in testing, usually to get 2 Negate's, I feel strong with Draw Go against pretty much every aggro deck ( there really isn't midrange in this format, Pod, Parallel Lives being more combo oriented, take out the few key spells and they become hopeless to win fast )
I don't know..Liliana doesn't really bring card advantage like we are in need of, and it's not the easiest to protect from aggro, the discard ability is nice with Mage but not to relevant. In the Control Mirror is still "meh" I usually can counter it and keep it at bay with Nexus's when it does slip in on the rare occasion. People only want to run 1-2, which means it doesn't hit early often the only time it's good...
I would not recommend this card for Blue Black Control. Mana Black Green Disruption Rock or Mono Black Control if those were decks.
So far, Lily has been great. Almost every time I've dropped her, it's been Edict > she dies the turn after, but I don't hate that, at all. She helps us get rid of hexproof dudes, and she was invaluable in one control matchup I was in. I was able to discard Think Twice and USZ, both of which I flashed back later to make the discard asymmetrical. Contrary to popular belief, they won't always have a card with flashback to discard. Sometimes they'll have a little chaff they can drop, but it's never too long before you're cutting into the real business.
I plan on using Lantern Spirit as my finisher of choice.
First of all, nice name LOL. Second, I can't tell if you're trolling or not. Lantern Spirit seems far too slow, since even if you can protect it, you have to play it back each time.
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Going to add an extra Lily, just for that guy. Also, I noticed my Board was 13 cards, so more working space.
You say Darksteel Sentinel is good, correct? I'll take out an Alchemy and use him as a 1-of. The "surprise!" aspect only works if they don't know its in your hand, I believe. I really only want to see 1 Forbidden Alchemy per game to begin with, to be honest...
-1 Forbidden Alchemy
+1 Darksteel Sentinel
+1 Liliana of the Veil (SB)
+1 Dissipate (SB)
I'm not sure if straight UB is the way to go with Snapcaster Mage. I mean, filling your deck with a bunch of 187 Nekrataals (with flash, no less) isn't exactly a bad thing. It just seems too linear. Perhaps I'm overthinking things, but flashing back Timely Reinforcements seems like the way to do things against a metagame that will surely be pretty aggressive out the gate. Tempered Steel and Pod decks looke like the auto-snap decisions going into a truly brand new format. This also begs another question: how does UB deal with permanents like Steel and Pod? Seems like just another reason to include a spell like Oblivion Ring in control/aggro control. Not having a main deck answer to Birthing Pod and Tempered Steel seems like a sure fire way to fall short in the upcoming standard.
Mental Misstep seems like a good check to a lot of the aggressive openings. Missteping a Birds out of Pod decks or a Glint Hawk/Signal Pest in Steel will slow those decks down tremendously. Furnace Scamp and the new red werewolf one drop are sizeable early game threats, as well. I don't think Mental Misstep will be a huge player, but main decking two seems like the right way to go. Additionally, if Visions of Beyond gets better (which it should, by a mile) Misstep can potentially counter your opponent's Ancestral Recall. That's not bad, either.
I agree with Chapin that Snapcaster lends itself very well to Sword based strategies. Again, I'm not sure if UB is the answer here. Snapcaster is no Squadron Hawk when it comes to putting Swords on bodies, so an additional board presence is necessary here.
Esper seems greedy. The new enemy M10 duals are not fetchlands by any means. Overloading on Scars lands and M10 duals is a surefire way to get draws where every land is entering the battlefield tapped. Perhaps an Esper deck could work with blue being the splash color, and some Simulacrum fixing. Still seems a bit greedy, though.
This upcoming standard is a brave new world we're entering. Aggressive strategies will surely do well out of the gate, but Snapcaster Mage is clearly the most powerful card in the format. These are just a few thoughts I've had brewing against a metagame I will believe to consist of Tempered Steel, Birthing Pod, and red decks, both big and small.
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First of all, nice name LOL. Second, I can't tell if you're trolling or not. Lantern Spirit seems far too slow, since even if you can protect it, you have to play it back each time.
Not trolling at all.
I made a soild permission or "draw go" build prior to the "Mystic Caw-Go" or "Caw-Blade".
If you want to win quick by playing a draw go / permission style deck that really isn't going to happen. The deck I'm constructing run's someone's hand to 0 cards, while maintaining the board, and having more answers then they have questions.
I don't want to tap 6 mana with 2 or 3 open to hope they don't answer my 6 drop. I want complete control of the game.
This is where I am going to take my games.
My opponent has 2 cards in hand and 10 lands, and no board presence.
I have 6 cards in hand and 10 lands, and 2 Lantern Spirits in play. Good Game.
I'll close the game 2-4 damage at a time, while maintaining mana for recursion, counterspells and draw at the end of their turn.
Also, he chumps like a champ allowing you to stall to find solutions in your deck of magical cards.
Going to add an extra Lily, just for that guy. Also, I noticed my Board was 13 cards, so more working space.
You say Darksteel Sentinel is good, correct? I'll take out an Alchemy and use him as a 1-of. The "surprise!" aspect only works if they don't know its in your hand, I believe. I really only want to see 1 Forbidden Alchemy per game to begin with, to be honest...
-1 Forbidden Alchemy
+1 Darksteel Sentinel
+1 Liliana of the Veil (SB)
+1 Dissipate (SB)
23 lands? Yeesh. I would think 25 would be the minimum for this type of control deck. Only need 1 Army of the Damned I believe due to flashback, and I'm not sure Liliana is better than another land. Take those two out and put two more lands in. Also, I think 2 Nephalia Drownyard is enough. Can't really comment on some of your other choices as they seem to be personal and I haven't done alot of testing with post-Zed U/B control.
With the revealing of Lantern Spirit quite possibly being the most difficult creature to kill in the upcoming standard format, I felt it was imperative to create a deck that best complemented this amazing card.
After much deliberation on what color combination would work, I feel U/B is the best combo. In those colors you have the cheapest answers to the VAST majority of problems to arise as well as carry a redundency to anything that arises.
Unfortunately I haven't had the time to playtest this out at all. It's mostly theorycrafting. Now if you paid any attention to the actual deck you will notice one GLARING problem. In it's current manifestation it is at 63 cards. This obviously needs to be solved.
Now then, I encourage any and everyone to respond and attempt to piece by piece, analyze and try to break down the deck. The greatest decks are the results of hours and hours of testing and deliberation. I will defend any of the card choices as I expect someone else to defend theirs. I will attempt to not let pride get in the way and see every angle for what it's worth as I expect other people to do. All in all, I expect some civilized conversations and interesting debates.
Do understand that this is obviously very different from the status quo of decks being posted in here, hence why it was in a different thread all together. But with the invitation of the OP, I feel this can be a better home for this list.
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With the revealing of Lantern Spirit quite possibly being the most difficult creature to kill in the upcoming standard format, I felt it was imperative to create a deck that best complemented this amazing card.
After much deliberation on what color combination would work, I feel U/B is the best combo. In those colors you have the cheapest answers to the VAST majority of problems to arise as well as carry a redundency to anything that arises.
Unfortunately I haven't had the time to playtest this out at all. It's mostly theorycrafting. Now if you paid any attention to the actual deck you will notice one GLARING problem. In it's current manifestation it is at 63 cards. This obviously needs to be solved.
Now then, I encourage any and everyone to respond and attempt to piece by piece, analyze and try to break down the deck. The greatest decks are the results of hours and hours of testing and deliberation. I will defend any of the card choices as I expect someone else to defend theirs. I will attempt to not let pride get in the way and see every angle for what it's worth as I expect other people to do. All in all, I expect some civilized conversations and interesting debates.
Do understand that this is obviously very different from the status quo of decks being posted in here, hence why it was in a different thread all together. But with the invitation of the OP, I feel this can be a better home for this list.
You are running WAY too much removal. To be completely honest, 3-5 pieces of spot removal + the two BSZ is probably More than enough.
Throw the negates in the SB and main two Dissipate. Negate is dead way more often, and a straight hard counter is generally needed in permission lists,. Late game, mana leak just doesn't cut it
4 Despise is also probably too much. I might cut 1 of those. Also, Grave Titan is too good to not include.
Something like that. Lantern Spirit IS very good. I really like that guy now that he was brought to my attention
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Only played against a few things (Werewolves, UB Control...) But it seemed pretty solid. It will obviously need tweaking when a meta springs up but this has been a nice starting point.
If you're not playing Forbidden Alchemy in this deck, you are wrong. I won't pretend to know the right number, but the velocity of this card with all the flashback effects in this format is just the tits. Dig 4, find the counter you need, dump some other stuff in the grave... Then flash that stuff back with Tiago Chan. How is that not the most terrific card advantage play to be seen in Standard in years?
If you're not playing Forbidden Alchemy in this deck, you are wrong. I won't pretend to know the right number, but the velocity of this card with all the flashback effects in this format is just the tits. Dig 4, find the counter you need, dump some other stuff in the grave... Then flash that stuff back with Tiago Chan. How is that not the most terrific card advantage play to be seen in Standard in years?
I think Forbidden Alchemy will start to see more play once there are more flashback cards for it to dump into the grave but until then relying purely on Snapcaster Mage is a little much.
Lets talk a little more about this.... I love the flash, I love the Vigilince, I love the indestructibility.
However, is it too much to ask for our six drops not to die to dismember? Yea yea, I know "Dies to removal isn't a valid arguement". But when comparing 6 drops, I think it is.
I think Forbidden Alchemy will start to see more play once there are more flashback cards for it to dump into the grave but until then relying purely on Snapcaster Mage is a little much.
No, you're overthinking it. It's not good because it put cards in the grave. It's good because it gives you a choice of the top 4 cards to draw, which is deeper than we've been able to dig in a while. The fact that it puts the cards in your grave - an eminently more usable zone than the bottom of your library - almost doubles its value in certain situations and really just serves as icing on the delicious cake of this terrific draw spell.
And this engine costs 2U at instant speed and flashes back. Good lord.
Edit: oh yeah and it doesn't trigger Consecrated Sphinx.
Edit 2: just realized playing and flashing back Alchemy digs one deeper than a USZ for the same amount of mana. Chew on that.
A lot of people are looking for is card advantage instead of card filtering (as we already have ponder). While I'm not saying that Think Twice is actually card advantage it seems that way. I'm not saying one is better than the other, it's just a theory.
I think Forbidden Alchemy will start to see more play once there are more flashback cards for it to dump into the grave but until then relying purely on Snapcaster Mage is a little much.
This. The problem is that while it does give us a large amount of card selection, we have to consider the fact that our bomb count is fairly limited; thus, every time you try to dig 4 cards down for that Mana Leak, you're also chancing having to mill your Grave Titan or your Sphinx, which is not fun times (and yes, there will be more, but if there's a way to dig that that doesn't include having to dump my wincons into the grave, I'm going to take it).
Lets talk a little more about this.... I love the flash, I love the Vigilince, I love the indestructibility.
However, is it too much to ask for our six drops not to die to dismember? Yea yea, I know "Dies to removal isn't a valid arguement". But when comparing 6 drops, I think it is.
Well, maybe I'm just biased because he's worked out well for me, but this really doesn't seem like a big deal. People are playing Phyrexian Obliterator again, and he dies to Dismember. Block a Titan or a Sphinx or a Wurmcoil, then it dies to Dismember. It's an easy card to play into. But that's why we simply don't let that happen. And if it happens anyways, then it happens. They killed your creature. They O-Ringed your Wurmcoil and Dismembered your Sentinel. Keep on chuggin with Inkmoths or Drownyards until you find another threat.
I really do believe that the biggest mental roadblock for people when thinking about removal is that if it happens it's the end of the world. Trust me, it's not. Your creature dies, you keep playing the game.
No, you're overthinking it. It's not good because it put cards in the grave. It's good because it gives you a choice of the top 4 cards to draw, which is deeper than we've been able to dig in a while. The fact that it puts the cards in your grave - an eminently more usable zone than the bottom of your library - almost doubles its value in certain situations and really just serves as icing on the delicious cake of this terrific draw spell.
And this engine costs 2U at instant speed and flashes back. Good lord.
Edit: oh yeah and it doesn't trigger Consecrated Sphinx.
Edit 2: just realized playing and flashing back Alchemy digs one deeper than a USZ for the same amount of mana. Chew on that.
Although, while you're digging 1 deeper, you're also getting 5 less cards. Chew on that.
A lot of people are looking for is card advantage instead of card filtering (as we already have ponder). While I'm not saying that Think Twice is actually card advantage it seems that way. I'm not saying one is better than the other, it's just a theory.
Think Twice, once you flash it back, really is card advantage. It is one card, that provides you with two cards; the definition of raw card advantage. Alchemy is card advantage too, if you flash it back; though 7 is a lot more taxing than 3, and frankly I'd prefer Think Twice almost every time.
Hey guys, let's talk about Ludevic's Test Subject. If he were going to go into any deck, it seems like it'd be this one. We can activate his ability whenever we want, meaning moar opponent's endstep goodness. Also, a 13/13 doesn't die to Dismember
This. The problem is that while it does give us a large amount of card selection, we have to consider the fact that our bomb count is fairly limited; thus, every time you try to dig 4 cards down for that Mana Leak, you're also chancing having to mill your Grave Titan or your Sphinx, which is not fun times (and yes, there will be more, but if there's a way to dig that that doesn't include having to dump my wincons into the grave, I'm going to take it).
Well, maybe I'm just biased because he's worked out well for me, but this really doesn't seem like a big deal. People are playing Phyrexian Obliterator again, and he dies to Dismember. Block a Titan or a Sphinx or a Wurmcoil, then it dies to Dismember. It's an easy card to play into. But that's why we simply don't let that happen. And if it happens anyways, then it happens. They killed your creature. They O-Ringed your Wurmcoil and Dismembered your Sentinel. Keep on chuggin with Inkmoths or Drownyards until you find another threat.
I really do believe that the biggest mental roadblock for people when thinking about removal is that if it happens it's the end of the world. Trust me, it's not. Your creature dies, you keep playing the game.
Well, sphinx is going to net you 2 cards before they are going to be able to block and dismember it(if they can even block it), and any of the titans are giving you two triggers before they can block and and then dismember....
Im not saying anything bad against Sentinel, im trying to figure out the numbers and places for him before testing him out... And I feel he may be a pretty good sideboard card for the lists that are very creature light. (I only run 4 SCM and 2 Sphinx).Your opponent is probably siding out most of thier dismembers for game 2, and that makes sentinel a lot stronger, and I think the flash might actually give you an edge against other control decks. (Flash in EOT, they counter it (or it resolves), then you have a full turn uninterrupted to cast threats or dig through your deck.
And about Forbidden Alchemy... I suggest running a copy or two of Unburial Rights. That should solve the problem of discarding your limited number of threats early. Infact, if you toss a titan, sphinx, or sentinel and an Unburial Rights in the bin during the early game, you may be able to get that threat out much earlier.
You are running WAY too much removal. To be completely honest, 3-5 pieces of spot removal + the two BSZ is probably More than enough.
Throw the negates in the SB and main two Dissipate. Negate is dead way more often, and a straight hard counter is generally needed in permission lists,. Late game, mana leak just doesn't cut it
4 Despise is also probably too much. I might cut 1 of those. Also, Grave Titan is too good to not include.
Something like that. Lantern Spirit IS very good. I really like that guy now that he was brought to my attention
I'll explain my card choices for you and hopefully validate my reasoning.
I am wholeheartedly expecting a ton of aggro to hit the standard tables at the local fnms for the first few weeks. Hence the NINE removal spells. Normally I would only run at max the exact numbers you posted, closer to 4-5 spot with 2-3 sweepers.
Now the reasoning behind the 2 negate is this, it is for all intents and purposes a hard counter for a deck running 9 removal spells with 2 recurring ones (BSZ). Reason behind that is b/c everything that hits the ground is going to be dead, so i need cheap answers for non creature stuffs. Without cheap discard that hits noncreature items aside from distress, I feel negate is almost a requirement. In fact I'm more on the fence about mana leak with it's decreasing capability toward end game.
Also the 4x Despise is crucial, aside from counting as more removal and ways to deal with planewalkers, it's the only way to peek into someone's hand to see what they are doing or planning and with the way the deck is going to end up being played, it really needs to see what is going on every once in a while. Esp if your opponent decides to start holding back b/c we aren't dropping any threats onto the field till the later turns.
However if through playtesting I sense that the numbers are inefficient then I will obviously make changes. Atm I just took out the 2 6 drop slots and dropped the lands to 23 and I've noticed even at 23 I get flooded because the deck curves out at 3.
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I'm playing 9 spot removal spells for the same reasons. I expect aggro and pod decks to take up a huge chunk while people figure out whats good. I play my negates in the board though, with 4 leaks and 4 dissipates main. I'm on the fence with hand discard. I like the one mana cost of despise, but distress can take anything, even though its two mana. Maybe I'm just spoiled because of having IoK and duress in the past.
Anyhow, I'm running a playset of grave titans as win cons right now. One or two titans will probably become sphinxes, I just find for now, titan will blow aggro away, especially if you drop two in a row. And since we don't have u/b manland right now, I need win conditions that say "I win when you drop me"
I think this deck will be tier one, alongside traditional u/w, which didn't lose too much either. But distress/despise will give us an edge. I like the idea of flashing back distresses on that deck. Come to think of it, oblivion ring is the only thing that deck has on us.
Curses, just lost a big post because instead of clicking back to this tab I closed it :c Anywho, in summary: Nephalia Drownyard seriously gets there vs control (hell, even an aggro deck that's lost steam) and any deck that tries to gain card advantage is only making it easier for us to kill them. Also, I apologize for not taking Lantern Spirit seriously; thinking about it more, I can definitely see the potential for value.
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Curses, just lost a big post because instead of clicking back to this tab I closed it :c Anywho, in summary: Nephalia Drownyard seriously gets there vs control (hell, even an aggro deck that's lost steam) and any deck that tries to gain card advantage is only making it easier for us to kill them. Also, I apologize for not taking Lantern Spirit seriously; thinking about it more, I can definitely see the potential for value.
Nephalia Drownyard looks good on paper. I need to test more to see just how effective it is. Understandable in theory it could screw someone hard when they enter topdeck, and if we have think twice and other flashback targets that we REQUIRE at that very moment, it could possibly help. However the scenario in question won't always be like that. Just need to weight the cons vs pros.
I feel like Lantern Spirit will be a HUGE boon for any control deck. The fact of the matter is this. For an end game threat to be good it has to deal with certain things and removal is a huge deal regardless of what deck we aim to beat or what colors we find ourselves facing. Anything that can circumvant that is exactly what we need. Which is why I like critters like Darksteel Titan(nifty find there btw, never caught him before) and Invisible Stalker. The only problems I have with these is they still can't dodge certain types of removal, DsT can't avoid -counters and Stalker can't avoid mass removal. Not saying that makes them bad, but Lantern Spirit just seems like a strict upgrade.
Edit 1: Another thing I'm going to be testing is just how fast I can get 20 cards in my Graveyard with having so many cards that get used. Well testing is a bit of a stretch, more like noting. I've noticed that even with 4 ponders and 4 think twices, the drawing is a bit lackluster and a control deck that loses out of answers is a dead deck. Unlike aggro we can't just topdeck and win.
Nephalia Drownyard looks good on paper. I need to test more to see just how effective it is. Understandable in theory it could screw someone hard when they enter topdeck, and if we have think twice and other flashback targets that we REQUIRE at that very moment, it could possibly help. However the scenario in question won't always be like that. Just need to weight the cons vs pros.
I feel like Lantern Spirit will be a HUGE boon for any control deck. The fact of the matter is this. For an end game threat to be good it has to deal with certain things and removal is a huge deal regardless of what deck we aim to beat or what colors we find ourselves facing. Anything that can circumvant that is exactly what we need. Which is why I like critters like Darksteel Titan(nifty find there btw, never caught him before) and Invisible Stalker. The only problems I have with these is they still can't dodge certain types of removal, DsT can't avoid -counters and Stalker can't avoid mass removal. Not saying that makes them bad, but Lantern Spirit just seems like a strict upgrade.
Yeah, I'm going to test out a singleton Spirit over my second Sentinel, and see how it works out. So far I haven't reached 20 in the grave in all my testing (I've been watching, because I'd like an Ancestral Recall as much as the next guy) but as far as the drawing being lackluster, I can't say I agree. Maybe I've just had extraordinary luck in testing so far, but I've been aggro'd out in a grand total of 2 games, and each one was by a single turn, so I don't think there's much that needs changing right now. We've pretty much nailed the core formula, now it's time to tweak numbers and experiment with a few fringe card picks to see if we can get something that's maybe .02% better.
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grave Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Instants:
4 Think Twice
4 Mana Leak
4 Dissipate
2 Negate
4 Go for the throat
3 Dismember
2 Black Sun Zenith
4 Ponder
Lands:
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacombs
4 Inkmoth Nexus
7 Island
7 Swamp
1 Stoic Rebuttal
1 Negate
2 Doomblade
2 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Flashfreeze
3 Visions of Beyond
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Darkslick Shores
9x Island
8x Swamp
Creatures:
1x Grave Titan
2x Consecrated Sphinx
2x Spellskite
Planeswalkers:
2x Sorin Markov
2x Jace, Memory Adept
4x Mana Leak
3x Cancel
2x Stoic Rebuttal
4x Dissipate
Removal:
3x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Doom Blade
1x Go for the Throat
Discard:
3x Distress
Draw:
3x Blue Sun's Zenith
2x Ponder
2x Flashfreeze
2x Deathmark
3x Steel Sabotage
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Mental Misstep
2x Memoricide
2x Surgical Extraction
Can't wait to begin testing this build. I think USZ is going to be discovered to be a lot better than people give it credit for. I'm also experimenting with Sorin to see whether he works in a "Draw-Go" build.
Emotion & Might R
Logic & Knowledge U
I always boarded it out personally in testing, usually to get 2 Negate's, I feel strong with Draw Go against pretty much every aggro deck ( there really isn't midrange in this format, Pod, Parallel Lives being more combo oriented, take out the few key spells and they become hopeless to win fast )
I don't know..Liliana doesn't really bring card advantage like we are in need of, and it's not the easiest to protect from aggro, the discard ability is nice with Mage but not to relevant. In the Control Mirror is still "meh" I usually can counter it and keep it at bay with Nexus's when it does slip in on the rare occasion. People only want to run 1-2, which means it doesn't hit early often the only time it's good...
I would not recommend this card for Blue Black Control. Mana Black Green Disruption Rock or Mono Black Control if those were decks.
Did you ever try the card Snapcaster Mage? 3 Blue Sun's Zenith will never be right, 1 is the line. 13 counter spells and you didn't try to fit any Negates in? Soren...you don't need to test to know he's terrible. Jace? You want to mill your opponent as a win condition? Another very bad inclusion to the deck in my opinion. Just 3 Distress? No Despise? No Liliana to play along with the synergy of the hand disruption? No Surgical Extraction Maindeck for after you Distress to mutilate their hand?
It honestly looks like you aimlessly included a lot of decent blue and black cards to control your adversary.
Doublepost merged and warned.
-Sene
I guess if werewolves or tokens are a common phenomena in your metagame, then Ratchet Bomb in the main could be good. I'll leave it up to you. As for Ghost Quarter... How does it give greedy people a hard time, precisely? It's not like this is a Cloudpost format, lol. You blow up their land, they get to search for whatever color they want and put it onto the battlefield, untapped I might add. Idk, seems terribad to me. You're down a land and they're... up one mana, if you use it on their turn. But if it works for you, let me know and I'll pick it up lol.
A few points I agree on, and a few I don't. Yes, I would never include 3 USZ in this deck. Ever. Also, if you have 13 counters, I can only assume you're running something worse than Negate where Negate should be. Now, Sorin or Jace (not both, but one or the other) could be an interesting inclusion. I'd lean towards Sorin, for two reasons: he gains us life while killing weenies, and Mindslaver wins games. Jace, on the other hand, draws us cards while providing an alt win con that synergizes well with another of ours. We'd just draw with him until it's time to kill them with it, of course, but that seems like a viable strategy. Also, if they want to bring mill hate in from the sideboard, they're more than welcome to.
So far, Lily has been great. Almost every time I've dropped her, it's been Edict > she dies the turn after, but I don't hate that, at all. She helps us get rid of hexproof dudes, and she was invaluable in one control matchup I was in. I was able to discard Think Twice and USZ, both of which I flashed back later to make the discard asymmetrical. Contrary to popular belief, they won't always have a card with flashback to discard. Sometimes they'll have a little chaff they can drop, but it's never too long before you're cutting into the real business.
First of all, nice name LOL. Second, I can't tell if you're trolling or not. Lantern Spirit seems far too slow, since even if you can protect it, you have to play it back each time.
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!
Going to add an extra Lily, just for that guy. Also, I noticed my Board was 13 cards, so more working space.
You say Darksteel Sentinel is good, correct? I'll take out an Alchemy and use him as a 1-of. The "surprise!" aspect only works if they don't know its in your hand, I believe. I really only want to see 1 Forbidden Alchemy per game to begin with, to be honest...
-1 Forbidden Alchemy
+1 Darksteel Sentinel
+1 Liliana of the Veil (SB)
+1 Dissipate (SB)
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Darksteel Sentinel
Finishers - 6
2x Consecrated Sphinx
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Army of the Damned
Drawstuff - 9
4x Think Twice
3x Ponder
1x Forbidden Alchemy
Countersuite - 8
4x Mana Leak
2x Dissipate
2x Frightful Delusion
3x Dismember
2x Doomblade
1x Go for the Throat
1x Black Sun's Zenith
Walker - 1
1x Liliana of the Veil
Lands - 23
7x Island
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Swamp
3x Darkslick Shores
3x Nephalia Drownyard
2x Inkmoth Nexus
4x Flashfreeze
3x Mental Misstep
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Go For The Throat
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Dissipate
Will do proper play-testing this Friday.
Mental Misstep seems like a good check to a lot of the aggressive openings. Missteping a Birds out of Pod decks or a Glint Hawk/Signal Pest in Steel will slow those decks down tremendously. Furnace Scamp and the new red werewolf one drop are sizeable early game threats, as well. I don't think Mental Misstep will be a huge player, but main decking two seems like the right way to go. Additionally, if Visions of Beyond gets better (which it should, by a mile) Misstep can potentially counter your opponent's Ancestral Recall. That's not bad, either.
I agree with Chapin that Snapcaster lends itself very well to Sword based strategies. Again, I'm not sure if UB is the answer here. Snapcaster is no Squadron Hawk when it comes to putting Swords on bodies, so an additional board presence is necessary here.
Esper seems greedy. The new enemy M10 duals are not fetchlands by any means. Overloading on Scars lands and M10 duals is a surefire way to get draws where every land is entering the battlefield tapped. Perhaps an Esper deck could work with blue being the splash color, and some Simulacrum fixing. Still seems a bit greedy, though.
This upcoming standard is a brave new world we're entering. Aggressive strategies will surely do well out of the gate, but Snapcaster Mage is clearly the most powerful card in the format. These are just a few thoughts I've had brewing against a metagame I will believe to consist of Tempered Steel, Birthing Pod, and red decks, both big and small.
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Not trolling at all.
I made a soild permission or "draw go" build prior to the "Mystic Caw-Go" or "Caw-Blade".
If you want to win quick by playing a draw go / permission style deck that really isn't going to happen. The deck I'm constructing run's someone's hand to 0 cards, while maintaining the board, and having more answers then they have questions.
I don't want to tap 6 mana with 2 or 3 open to hope they don't answer my 6 drop. I want complete control of the game.
This is where I am going to take my games.
My opponent has 2 cards in hand and 10 lands, and no board presence.
I have 6 cards in hand and 10 lands, and 2 Lantern Spirits in play. Good Game.
I'll close the game 2-4 damage at a time, while maintaining mana for recursion, counterspells and draw at the end of their turn.
Also, he chumps like a champ allowing you to stall to find solutions in your deck of magical cards.
23 lands? Yeesh. I would think 25 would be the minimum for this type of control deck. Only need 1 Army of the Damned I believe due to flashback, and I'm not sure Liliana is better than another land. Take those two out and put two more lands in. Also, I think 2 Nephalia Drownyard is enough. Can't really comment on some of your other choices as they seem to be personal and I haven't done alot of testing with post-Zed U/B control.
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Lantern Spirit
2x Wurmcoil Engine [Grave Titan or Batterskull strong possibility these will be removed]
Counters
4x Mana Leak
2x Negate
Removal
3x Dismember
2x Doomblade
2x Go for the Throat
2x Black Sun's Zenith
4x Despise
Draw
4x Think Twice
4x Ponder
Artifacts
2x Sword of War and Peace
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
Lands
4x Drowned Catacombs
2x Nephalia Drownyard
9x Island
9x Swamp
2x Negate
4x Distress
1x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Sword of Body and Mind
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Go for the Throat
2x Doomblade
1x Dismember
With the revealing of Lantern Spirit quite possibly being the most difficult creature to kill in the upcoming standard format, I felt it was imperative to create a deck that best complemented this amazing card.
After much deliberation on what color combination would work, I feel U/B is the best combo. In those colors you have the cheapest answers to the VAST majority of problems to arise as well as carry a redundency to anything that arises.
Unfortunately I haven't had the time to playtest this out at all. It's mostly theorycrafting. Now if you paid any attention to the actual deck you will notice one GLARING problem. In it's current manifestation it is at 63 cards. This obviously needs to be solved.
Now then, I encourage any and everyone to respond and attempt to piece by piece, analyze and try to break down the deck. The greatest decks are the results of hours and hours of testing and deliberation. I will defend any of the card choices as I expect someone else to defend theirs. I will attempt to not let pride get in the way and see every angle for what it's worth as I expect other people to do. All in all, I expect some civilized conversations and interesting debates.
Do understand that this is obviously very different from the status quo of decks being posted in here, hence why it was in a different thread all together. But with the invitation of the OP, I feel this can be a better home for this list.
Standard
U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH
G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
You are running WAY too much removal. To be completely honest, 3-5 pieces of spot removal + the two BSZ is probably More than enough.
Throw the negates in the SB and main two Dissipate. Negate is dead way more often, and a straight hard counter is generally needed in permission lists,. Late game, mana leak just doesn't cut it
4 Despise is also probably too much. I might cut 1 of those. Also, Grave Titan is too good to not include.
So something like
-2 Dismember
-1 GFtT
-1 Despise
-2 Negate
+2 Dissipate
+1 Grave Titan
Or
-2 Dismember
-1 GFtT
-1 Despise
-2 Negate
-1 Wurmcoil
+3 Dissipate
+1 Grave Titan
Something like that. Lantern Spirit IS very good. I really like that guy now that he was brought to my attention
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
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4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Solemn Simalcrum
2 Grave Titan
2 Day Of Judgment
1 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Dissipate
4 Mana Leak
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Think Twice
3 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Dismember
2 Doom Blade
2 Gideon Jura
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Seachrome Coast
3 Drowned Catacomb
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Isolated Chapel
5 Island
4 Swamp
3 Plains
1 Black Sun's Zenith
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Stony Silence
2 Go For The Throat
3 Flashfreeze
3 Deathmark
Only played against a few things (Werewolves, UB Control...) But it seemed pretty solid. It will obviously need tweaking when a meta springs up but this has been a nice starting point.
I think Forbidden Alchemy will start to see more play once there are more flashback cards for it to dump into the grave but until then relying purely on Snapcaster Mage is a little much.
Lets talk a little more about this.... I love the flash, I love the Vigilince, I love the indestructibility.
However, is it too much to ask for our six drops not to die to dismember? Yea yea, I know "Dies to removal isn't a valid arguement". But when comparing 6 drops, I think it is.
No, you're overthinking it. It's not good because it put cards in the grave. It's good because it gives you a choice of the top 4 cards to draw, which is deeper than we've been able to dig in a while. The fact that it puts the cards in your grave - an eminently more usable zone than the bottom of your library - almost doubles its value in certain situations and really just serves as icing on the delicious cake of this terrific draw spell.
And this engine costs 2U at instant speed and flashes back. Good lord.
Edit: oh yeah and it doesn't trigger Consecrated Sphinx.
Edit 2: just realized playing and flashing back Alchemy digs one deeper than a USZ for the same amount of mana. Chew on that.
This. The problem is that while it does give us a large amount of card selection, we have to consider the fact that our bomb count is fairly limited; thus, every time you try to dig 4 cards down for that Mana Leak, you're also chancing having to mill your Grave Titan or your Sphinx, which is not fun times (and yes, there will be more, but if there's a way to dig that that doesn't include having to dump my wincons into the grave, I'm going to take it).
Well, maybe I'm just biased because he's worked out well for me, but this really doesn't seem like a big deal. People are playing Phyrexian Obliterator again, and he dies to Dismember. Block a Titan or a Sphinx or a Wurmcoil, then it dies to Dismember. It's an easy card to play into. But that's why we simply don't let that happen. And if it happens anyways, then it happens. They killed your creature. They O-Ringed your Wurmcoil and Dismembered your Sentinel. Keep on chuggin with Inkmoths or Drownyards until you find another threat.
I really do believe that the biggest mental roadblock for people when thinking about removal is that if it happens it's the end of the world. Trust me, it's not. Your creature dies, you keep playing the game.
Although, while you're digging 1 deeper, you're also getting 5 less cards. Chew on that.
Think Twice, once you flash it back, really is card advantage. It is one card, that provides you with two cards; the definition of raw card advantage. Alchemy is card advantage too, if you flash it back; though 7 is a lot more taxing than 3, and frankly I'd prefer Think Twice almost every time.
Hey guys, let's talk about Ludevic's Test Subject. If he were going to go into any deck, it seems like it'd be this one. We can activate his ability whenever we want, meaning moar opponent's endstep goodness. Also, a 13/13 doesn't die to Dismember
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!
Well, sphinx is going to net you 2 cards before they are going to be able to block and dismember it(if they can even block it), and any of the titans are giving you two triggers before they can block and and then dismember....
Im not saying anything bad against Sentinel, im trying to figure out the numbers and places for him before testing him out... And I feel he may be a pretty good sideboard card for the lists that are very creature light. (I only run 4 SCM and 2 Sphinx).Your opponent is probably siding out most of thier dismembers for game 2, and that makes sentinel a lot stronger, and I think the flash might actually give you an edge against other control decks. (Flash in EOT, they counter it (or it resolves), then you have a full turn uninterrupted to cast threats or dig through your deck.
And about Forbidden Alchemy... I suggest running a copy or two of Unburial Rights. That should solve the problem of discarding your limited number of threats early. Infact, if you toss a titan, sphinx, or sentinel and an Unburial Rights in the bin during the early game, you may be able to get that threat out much earlier.
I'll explain my card choices for you and hopefully validate my reasoning.
I am wholeheartedly expecting a ton of aggro to hit the standard tables at the local fnms for the first few weeks. Hence the NINE removal spells. Normally I would only run at max the exact numbers you posted, closer to 4-5 spot with 2-3 sweepers.
Now the reasoning behind the 2 negate is this, it is for all intents and purposes a hard counter for a deck running 9 removal spells with 2 recurring ones (BSZ). Reason behind that is b/c everything that hits the ground is going to be dead, so i need cheap answers for non creature stuffs. Without cheap discard that hits noncreature items aside from distress, I feel negate is almost a requirement. In fact I'm more on the fence about mana leak with it's decreasing capability toward end game.
Also the 4x Despise is crucial, aside from counting as more removal and ways to deal with planewalkers, it's the only way to peek into someone's hand to see what they are doing or planning and with the way the deck is going to end up being played, it really needs to see what is going on every once in a while. Esp if your opponent decides to start holding back b/c we aren't dropping any threats onto the field till the later turns.
However if through playtesting I sense that the numbers are inefficient then I will obviously make changes. Atm I just took out the 2 6 drop slots and dropped the lands to 23 and I've noticed even at 23 I get flooded because the deck curves out at 3.
Standard
U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH
G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
Anyhow, I'm running a playset of grave titans as win cons right now. One or two titans will probably become sphinxes, I just find for now, titan will blow aggro away, especially if you drop two in a row. And since we don't have u/b manland right now, I need win conditions that say "I win when you drop me"
I think this deck will be tier one, alongside traditional u/w, which didn't lose too much either. But distress/despise will give us an edge. I like the idea of flashing back distresses on that deck. Come to think of it, oblivion ring is the only thing that deck has on us.
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!
Nephalia Drownyard looks good on paper. I need to test more to see just how effective it is. Understandable in theory it could screw someone hard when they enter topdeck, and if we have think twice and other flashback targets that we REQUIRE at that very moment, it could possibly help. However the scenario in question won't always be like that. Just need to weight the cons vs pros.
I feel like Lantern Spirit will be a HUGE boon for any control deck. The fact of the matter is this. For an end game threat to be good it has to deal with certain things and removal is a huge deal regardless of what deck we aim to beat or what colors we find ourselves facing. Anything that can circumvant that is exactly what we need. Which is why I like critters like Darksteel Titan(nifty find there btw, never caught him before) and Invisible Stalker. The only problems I have with these is they still can't dodge certain types of removal, DsT can't avoid -counters and Stalker can't avoid mass removal. Not saying that makes them bad, but Lantern Spirit just seems like a strict upgrade.
Edit 1: Another thing I'm going to be testing is just how fast I can get 20 cards in my Graveyard with having so many cards that get used. Well testing is a bit of a stretch, more like noting. I've noticed that even with 4 ponders and 4 think twices, the drawing is a bit lackluster and a control deck that loses out of answers is a dead deck. Unlike aggro we can't just topdeck and win.
Standard
U// SoM/Inn Rotation Grixis Control W/L/D 22-7-2 (4-3 in 5k, Dropped 7th round)
Status: Reactivated
U// Inn/RtR Rotation Grixis Control Tournament W/L/D 3-1-0 Testing 1-0-0
Status: Active
Modern
Not getting into it yet. No local modern tourneys
EDH
G Azusa W/L/D 8-2-0 Status: Back! but retired for now
Yeah, I'm going to test out a singleton Spirit over my second Sentinel, and see how it works out. So far I haven't reached 20 in the grave in all my testing (I've been watching, because I'd like an Ancestral Recall as much as the next guy) but as far as the drawing being lackluster, I can't say I agree. Maybe I've just had extraordinary luck in testing so far, but I've been aggro'd out in a grand total of 2 games, and each one was by a single turn, so I don't think there's much that needs changing right now. We've pretty much nailed the core formula, now it's time to tweak numbers and experiment with a few fringe card picks to see if we can get something that's maybe .02% better.
[MANA]UB[/MANA] Draw, Go BU
GULorthodonUG
RBGNext Level JundGBR
I collect Mirror of Fate (18) and Darksteel Relic (5)!