Regarding Alchemy, everybody except Presidente seems to be missing the point entirely, which is what I was afraid of.
I can understand not wanting to put your win condition in the grave. To me that seems rather a minor concern. Nothing else in Standard is going to dig like Alchemy, at instant speed for three mana. Comparing it directly to USZ is unfair, because they are completely different cards used for entirely different functions. So stop doing that, everybody.
If it helps, think of it as sort of a Thirst for Knowledge effect, or maybe Compulsive Research, except you can't discard just one card, but you get to dig one deeper and flash back. If you're using it to dig for an answer, you probably haven't asserted dominion over the game yet, so there's no need to bother with win conditions, especially things like Sphinx or Titan that make you tap out and therefore vulnerable. You're playing draw-go, for goodness' sake. You can afford to be patient. You should have multiple win conditions - win conditions you can draw much later in the game with Zenith or a flashed back Alchemy. Your win condition creatures are most likely dead weight until AT LEAST turn 8 or so. Be patient.
It seems solid and hopefully will be able to perform in true permission fashion. Snapcasters allows the use of fewer counters and allows us to draw big with 8 draw spells for him to target. Mana leak and dissipate are the most solid coutners right now, lost in the mist is an experiment, to fill into the roils void and remove a late game problem spell like a titan (without having to worry about summoning trap! HAHA!) and removing another problem at the same time. Only went with 2 despise b/c honestly I don't trust discard aside from inquisition which rotated. I figure everyone has creatures, and creature light decks will probably be infested with things like gideon. Lantern spirit might seem like a strange choice, but I just like to think of it as traditional. It can be protected in a true permission since for only U and has no real limit besides it's weak body. Couple this with a batterskull or an opponent who has exhausted their resources and you have a solid win-con. Not to mention the batterskull + inkmoth interacation. Slow and steady wins the race. Sideboard is mostly cards that wouldn't fit mainboard, it will be tweaked depending on the meta. Has a little of everything and a lot of cards I imagine no one would want to see G2.
Seriously, why are people playing consecrated sphinx in this deck? The whole point of the deck is to maximize "not tapping out" to generate a wall of counters by playing instant speed draw spells. It is totally out of place in this strategy.
If your tapping out for Sphinx your doing it wrong this isn't tapout
Trample is Evasion... It creates a blocker to get you through the early game and an optional win con. Notice i did not suggest cutting grave titan completely rather dropping the curve.. biggest thing with it is that it comes down t2-t6 and is effective or if it comes down t13 it is active in a turn and half.
It's a turn efficient card but not a mana efficient card. We don't want to pay mana early/mid game to build up a win con. Those turns we spend disrupting our opponent and building CA. Also, if you play in a more competitive situation, most people will let you sink a decent amount of mana into him and then nuke him. Making your opponent waste mana usually provides you with an advantage.
I'm not a fan of vision from beyond. If I wanted a cantrip spell I'd rather take probe, at least it lets me peak at my opponent's hand. With all the graveyard hate and flashbacks in the set having 20 cards in the graveyard is a lot. One of the most important things about draw spells for permission is how far it digs for you. The fact that ponder digs 3 deep is a fairly large deal, and I'd rather play a sorcery that digs 3 every time than an instant that digs 1 90% of the time and 10% digs 3.
Talking about DoJ vs BSZ, although this is only a small thing in the long run I do believe it's relevant. With valakut gone mid range decks will be viable, and most likely they'll be running Thrun, the last troll . Once thrun starts hitting tables a lot more via pod and G/x mid range decks BSZ will be a lot more useful.
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It's a turn efficient card but not a mana efficient card. We don't want to pay mana early/mid game to build up a win con. Those turns we spend disrupting our opponent and building CA. Also, if you play in a more competitive situation, most people will let you sink a decent amount of mana into him and then nuke him. Making your opponent waste mana usually provides you with an advantage.
Thats the advantage of this thing. If you drop it say t4 and dont have to counter a spell and dont have the USZ in hand then you pump him. The removal they use on him is either countered if you have the hand to or accepted and it reduces the amount of removal that is available for other creatures later on. He also serves as a blocker which is invaluable. I can't tell you how many games i have lost to a goblin guide because the early creatures continue to hit. It allows you to save the removal if need be for the more important creatures as well as providing you with a potential win con later on.
I would be thinking of a build similar to this. Draw/go is based on counters and REALLY needs at least 10..
You guys want to build a deck or argue about what draw go is? damn...This is supposed to be a dev/primer thread. Not a "lets define a defined archetype" thread.
Trample is Evasion... It creates a blocker to get you through the early game and an optional win con. Notice i did not suggest cutting grave titan completely rather dropping the curve.. biggest thing with it is that it comes down t2-t6 and is effective or if it comes down t13 it is active in a turn and half.
Test Subject isn't good it requires you to dedicate your deck to protecting it only to have them kill it on the final activation anyway.
Lantern Spirit isn't what this deck wants you want to drop a finisher not slowly wither them down with Lantern Spirit. Grave Titan or Sphinx are the best options.
Ponder is better than visions just because the filtering is needed in this deck the instant speed doesn't make up for that.
Esper isn't going to work the manabases are to fragile now with the loss of fetchlands.
Forbidden Alchemy is one of the best cards in the deck it allows you to dig for an answer at instant speed and it get's ridiculous when combined with snapcaster.
Thats the advantage of this thing. If you drop it say t4 and dont have to counter a spell and dont have the USZ in hand then you pump him. The removal they use on him is either countered if you have the hand to or accepted and it reduces the amount of removal that is available for other creatures later on. He also serves as a blocker which is invaluable. I can't tell you how many games i have lost to a goblin guide because the early creatures continue to hit. It allows you to save the removal if need be for the more important creatures as well as providing you with a potential win con later on.
I'd rather drop a lantern turn 3/4 or a shrieker, or pretty much anything than play him. I don't want to dump 12 mana into a win con. Yes its spread out, but that doesn't mean its efficient. It also dies to dismember, and in a format where that removal is available to all colors giving them 3-4 turns to use removal on your win con just seems like a bad idea.
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You guys want to build a deck or argue about what draw go is? damn...This is supposed to be a dev/primer thread. Not a "lets define a defined archetype" thread.
I agree.
Here's my list that I've been working on for an hour or so. No chance to play it yet, but I'll try and get some games in this weekend.
Frankly, the only cards I'm sold on in the sideboard are the BSZ, Despises, Wurmcoil, and Missteps. Everything else could probably be replaced with something, I just have no clue what the metagame will look like. Nihil Spellbombs are a likely candidate.
I'm uncertain as to how good Nephalia Drownyard will be. Sure, it's an alternate win condition, but some matchups the card will actually benefit the opponent, and that's bad news bears. Nevertheless, I want to try running it. Ghost Quarter is probably a better choice, though.
And speaking of colourless rare land, I'm not sure if I like what people are doing with Inkmoth Nexus in this thread. It seems that some people are just jamming it in their deck because it's a $12 rare. The variants running swords/batterskull are fine running Nexus, but is there really a point to playing it without equipment?
Haha I'm done arguing cause my point is obviously being ignored. Figure of destiny is a similar card and it saw huge amounts of play. This is a worse and more defensive version of that card. Lantern is terrible in this deck as is shrieker as they both require you tap out to either keep them alive or make them good. If they use there removal on it oh well. But it dies to removal is not a valid argument. so does every other creature we play in this deck.
Has anyone actually tested with lost in mist? I'm not convinced on it but as the upper end of counter spells it seems like it could be helpful. tho idk.
Being a draw go deck, having a man land that can win you the game is very beneficial. If you put your opponent in top deck mode, swinging 10 times with an inkmoth can very well get there. That's why man lands are so powerful in control decks. They can focus on more permission and just beat you to death with mana sources.
I like your sideboard besides the journal. It comes out way too slow for the lifegain to be relevant imo. If you're hurting for life against aggro then sorin's thirst is probably a better answer. Gives you two life and removes whatever two toughness beater your aggro opponent has.
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Lantern Spirit isn't what this deck wants you want to drop a finisher not slowly wither them down with Lantern Spirit.
Lets clarify something now people. Cards like lantern spirit are what allow the concept of draw go to exist. Lets say I drop this guy t5 w/ counter mana open. You try to cast a titan, i counter it. Next turn, 2 dmg, i draw some more answers and you get another chance to try and land a spell. If it's a creature, it will probably get removed, if not, probably countered, but this little 2/1 flyer? Still there. Granted, against geists he might not be so hot, so I might end up spliting him w/ wurmcoil or something, but wtf is grave titan going to do against UW but die? Seriously. This dude blocks and can survive on his own, dodge day of judgement. His flexibility is what makes him viable. That being said, grave titan will stay in my 75.
Lets clarify something now people. Cards like lantern spirit are what allow the concept of draw go to exist. Lets say I drop this guy t5 w/ counter mana open. You try to cast a titan, i counter it. Next turn, 2 dmg, i draw some more answers and you get another chance to try and land a spell. If it's a creature, it will probably get removed, if not, probably countered, but this little 2/1 flyer? Still there. Granted, against geists he might not be so hot, so I might end up spliting him w/ wurmcoil or something, but wtf is grave titan going to do against UW but die? Seriously. This dude blocks and can survive on his own, dodge day of judgement. His flexibility is what makes him viable. That being said, grave titan will stay in my 75.
The main problem with lantern is that hes terrible when facing down a mid range style deck. With valakut gone we'll see a lot more of them most likely. Decks that drop T3 thrun T4-5 Titan will make lantern a lot less relevant. Yes we do run sweepers, but only 1-2. I don't want to be running too many creatures that cant go toe to toe with other threats if things go bad. A grave titan/wurm coil/sphinx can buy you time and give either high board presence or massive CA. Lantern is nice and resilient, but that's about it.
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The main problem with lantern is that hes terrible when facing down a mid range style deck. With valakut gone we'll see a lot more of them most likely. Decks that drop T3 thrun T4-5 Titan will make lantern a lot less relevant. Yes we do run sweepers, but only 1-2. I don't want to be running too many creatures that cant go toe to toe with other threats if things go bad. A grave titan/wurm coil/sphinx can buy you time and give either high board presence or massive CA. Lantern is nice and resilient, but that's about it.
True true...I'm thinking a 3/1 split of lanterns and consecrated sphinx could help with this greatly. I'll test this out as well. I just wasn't so hot on sphinx since baby jace is gone, but with teh flashback and snapcaster he could be the go-to creature for providing enough advantage to bury your opponent.
Lantern Spirit is deceptively good in a draw-go permission deck simply because as long as you have mana open (and you should, always) during an opponent's turn, they cannot reliably launch an attack, as they're biggest threat will get chumped all day. In addition, the spirit is essentially immune to spot removal, sweepers, and edict effects; if your opponent is wasting resources to deal with this guy, he's already losing. It's no Blinking Spirit, but he's a very, very solid choice for the archetype.
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whats the word on delver of secrets? i noticed most of you guys arent using him. seems like hes a CRUCIAL turn 1 play for this style of deck.
I'd rather spend T1 using ponder or despise. I'd rather spend T2 reading mana leak. The early turns are preparing your answers. I doubt a 3/2 flyer at best will do that much, plus would you really want to waste your response protecting him?
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Agree with Kovacs, Delver is much more potent in U/R counterburn style decks or some variant of that. Here he takes up turns where we would rather leave mana available for counters or draws in the early turns, and is rather unimpressive later in the game...
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Haha I'm done arguing cause my point is obviously being ignored. Figure of destiny is a similar card and it saw huge amounts of play. This is a worse and more defensive version of that card. Lantern is terrible in this deck as is shrieker as they both require you tap out to either keep them alive or make them good. If they use there removal on it oh well. But it dies to removal is not a valid argument. so does every other creature we play in this deck.
Has anyone actually tested with lost in mist? I'm not convinced on it but as the upper end of counter spells it seems like it could be helpful. tho idk.
Figure of Destiny saw a lot of play, true. In a completely different type of deck. Kargan Dragonlord is similar and also saw a lot of play, but again, in a completely different type of deck. Draw-go is supposed to be about getting value out of every single card you have. Dropping the test subject, then investing 10 mana into him only to get it Dismembered/Doom Blades/GftTed etc. is quite the opposite of value, whereas if your titan gets killed then you still have zombies, or if your sphinx gets killed you still drew two cards, etc. etc.
Moving on to the debate about Lantern Spirit where I will discuss how good the card is in the deck and not how it defines draw-go or any other irrelevant facts, I think both sides bring up good points. The card is evasive, but like another poster said, the resurgence of midrange decks is going to make it less appealing. I believe the deck can function fine without it, but it's certainly plausible to run 1-2 (maybe even 3, but that's pushing it), preferably in the sideboard.
Figure of Destiny saw a lot of play, true. In a completely different type of deck. Kargan Dragonlord is similar and also saw a lot of play, but again, in a completely different type of deck. Draw-go is supposed to be about getting value out of every single card you have. Dropping the test subject, then investing 10 mana into him only to get it Dismembered/Doom Blades/GftTed etc. is quite the opposite of value, whereas if your titan gets killed then you still have zombies, or if your sphinx gets killed you still drew two cards, etc. etc.
Moving on to the debate about Lantern Spirit where I will discuss how good the card is in the deck and not how it defines draw-go or any other irrelevant facts, I think both sides bring up good points. The card is evasive, but like another poster said, the resurgence of midrange decks is going to make it less appealing. I believe the deck can function fine without it, but it's certainly plausible to run 1-2 (maybe even 3, but that's pushing it), preferably in the sideboard.
The main reason cards like titan and sphinx have to survive is because you only have the 1-4 of them in the deck AND they come down late. If your mana would not be used for other things the 10 mana invested is not truely an investment.. Yes the finishers are still need, but he fullfils a completely different spot in this deck. He is much more like Wall of Omens, from when Jund was previlant, he provide you a chance to stablize while also working toward the decks goal.
I think the main issue with the lanturn is that although it is hard to kill it also requires 4 mana to be fully usable. if they continue to swing with a thrun for you to continually block that means you have to be tapping 4 mana each turn.. That leave no or very little mana open for counters and kills. She's just to spendy to be good in this deck.. inkmoth is comparable and ten times better.
Regarding Alchemy, everybody except Presidente seems to be missing the point entirely, which is what I was afraid of.
I can understand not wanting to put your win condition in the grave. To me that seems rather a minor concern. Nothing else in Standard is going to dig like Alchemy, at instant speed for three mana. Comparing it directly to USZ is unfair, because they are completely different cards used for entirely different functions. So stop doing that, everybody.
If it helps, think of it as sort of a Thirst for Knowledge effect, or maybe Compulsive Research, except you can't discard just one card, but you get to dig one deeper and flash back. If you're using it to dig for an answer, you probably haven't asserted dominion over the game yet, so there's no need to bother with win conditions, especially things like Sphinx or Titan that make you tap out and therefore vulnerable. You're playing draw-go, for goodness' sake. You can afford to be patient. You should have multiple win conditions - win conditions you can draw much later in the game with Zenith or a flashed back Alchemy. Your win condition creatures are most likely dead weight until AT LEAST turn 8 or so. Be patient.
If you were referring to my post i wasnt comparing them as which one to use, i was noting their interaction as a poweful instant speed draw enigne together.
And you nailed it with what you said about the winconditions, thats why spirit is so good.
While it's true that spirit can require a four-mana investment when continually swung into by a bigger creature, it isn't really a lockdown on your part; if your opponent focuses on beating the thing over and over, you are still taking turns drawing cards, playing lands, and overall furthering your board position while essentially stalling the other player. I'm not saying it's hands-down the best creature available to the deck, but anything that allows you to put the opponent in a position where they have to play around it AS WELL as whatever counters/removal you have available seems pretty powerful to me...
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The main reason cards like titan and sphinx have to survive is because you only have the 1-4 of them in the deck AND they come down late. If your mana would not be used for other things the 10 mana invested is not truely an investment.. Yes the finishers are still need, but he fullfils a completely different spot in this deck. He is much more like Wall of Omens, from when Jund was previlant, he provide you a chance to stablize while also working toward the decks goal.
I think the main issue with the lanturn is that although it is hard to kill it also requires 4 mana to be fully usable. if they continue to swing with a thrun for you to continually block that means you have to be tapping 4 mana each turn.. That leave no or very little mana open for counters and kills. She's just to spendy to be good in this deck.. inkmoth is comparable and ten times better.
First off comparing this card to wall of omens is ridiculous. Wall of omens, this card soaks up mana like a sponge. If omens didn't cantrip it would of seen a lot less play. Again, I'd rather leave my turn 2-4 mana open for counterspells/removal. Go ahead and test him, but hes a fairly obvious timmy/limited bomb. The finishers we play are good finishers because they either are extremely resilient(wurmcoil) or impact the game before your next turn (sphinx/titans). This card does neither. Also, comparing this card to FoD is a hefty statement. Beyond being used in a completely different deck, FoD was a beater that upgraded throughout the game, where as this card is worthless until he eats 12 mana. At least FoD was being relevant as a 2/2 or 4/4. You could also force your opponent to remove him before sinking a lot of mana because he was a threat the whole game. Your opponent will know that he has 3-5 turns to deal with the card so he'll just play around it.
When you play a permission style deck, its a attrition battle. Dumping 12 mana in a guy that probably won't do anything isn't helping your cause.
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I can understand not wanting to put your win condition in the grave. To me that seems rather a minor concern. Nothing else in Standard is going to dig like Alchemy, at instant speed for three mana. Comparing it directly to USZ is unfair, because they are completely different cards used for entirely different functions. So stop doing that, everybody.
If it helps, think of it as sort of a Thirst for Knowledge effect, or maybe Compulsive Research, except you can't discard just one card, but you get to dig one deeper and flash back. If you're using it to dig for an answer, you probably haven't asserted dominion over the game yet, so there's no need to bother with win conditions, especially things like Sphinx or Titan that make you tap out and therefore vulnerable. You're playing draw-go, for goodness' sake. You can afford to be patient. You should have multiple win conditions - win conditions you can draw much later in the game with Zenith or a flashed back Alchemy. Your win condition creatures are most likely dead weight until AT LEAST turn 8 or so. Be patient.
4 think twice
4 ponder
Counters
4 mana leak
4 dissipate
2 lost in the mist
Discard
2 despise
Removal
2 doom blade
2 dismember
2 black sun's zenith
4 snapcaster mage
4 lantern spirit
Artifact
1 batterskull
Land
4 drowned catacombs
4 darkslick shores
4 inkmoth nexus
8 island
5 swamp
1 grave titan
1 wurmcoil engine
2 duress
1 surgical extraction
1 memoricide
2 go for the throat
1 black sun's zenith
3 spellskite
2 sword of war and peace
1 negate
It seems solid and hopefully will be able to perform in true permission fashion. Snapcasters allows the use of fewer counters and allows us to draw big with 8 draw spells for him to target. Mana leak and dissipate are the most solid coutners right now, lost in the mist is an experiment, to fill into the roils void and remove a late game problem spell like a titan (without having to worry about summoning trap! HAHA!) and removing another problem at the same time. Only went with 2 despise b/c honestly I don't trust discard aside from inquisition which rotated. I figure everyone has creatures, and creature light decks will probably be infested with things like gideon. Lantern spirit might seem like a strange choice, but I just like to think of it as traditional. It can be protected in a true permission since for only U and has no real limit besides it's weak body. Couple this with a batterskull or an opponent who has exhausted their resources and you have a solid win-con. Not to mention the batterskull + inkmoth interacation. Slow and steady wins the race. Sideboard is mostly cards that wouldn't fit mainboard, it will be tweaked depending on the meta. Has a little of everything and a lot of cards I imagine no one would want to see G2.
If your tapping out for Sphinx your doing it wrong this isn't tapout
It's a turn efficient card but not a mana efficient card. We don't want to pay mana early/mid game to build up a win con. Those turns we spend disrupting our opponent and building CA. Also, if you play in a more competitive situation, most people will let you sink a decent amount of mana into him and then nuke him. Making your opponent waste mana usually provides you with an advantage.
I'm not a fan of vision from beyond. If I wanted a cantrip spell I'd rather take probe, at least it lets me peak at my opponent's hand. With all the graveyard hate and flashbacks in the set having 20 cards in the graveyard is a lot. One of the most important things about draw spells for permission is how far it digs for you. The fact that ponder digs 3 deep is a fairly large deal, and I'd rather play a sorcery that digs 3 every time than an instant that digs 1 90% of the time and 10% digs 3.
Talking about DoJ vs BSZ, although this is only a small thing in the long run I do believe it's relevant. With valakut gone mid range decks will be viable, and most likely they'll be running Thrun, the last troll . Once thrun starts hitting tables a lot more via pod and G/x mid range decks BSZ will be a lot more useful.
UWR UWR Mid-Range
GBW Junk
Legacy
RBG Punishing Jund
Vintage
0 Ichorid
X MUD
Thats the advantage of this thing. If you drop it say t4 and dont have to counter a spell and dont have the USZ in hand then you pump him. The removal they use on him is either countered if you have the hand to or accepted and it reduces the amount of removal that is available for other creatures later on. He also serves as a blocker which is invaluable. I can't tell you how many games i have lost to a goblin guide because the early creatures continue to hit. It allows you to save the removal if need be for the more important creatures as well as providing you with a potential win con later on.
I would be thinking of a build similar to this. Draw/go is based on counters and REALLY needs at least 10..
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacombs
3 Inkmoth Nexus
7 Swamp
8 Island
Creatures 8
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Ludevic's Test Subject
2 Grave Titan
3 Despise
2 Doom Blade
1 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Ponder
2 Dismember
4 Dissipate
4 Mana Leak
2 Cancel
2 Lost in the Mist
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
Test Subject isn't good it requires you to dedicate your deck to protecting it only to have them kill it on the final activation anyway.
Lantern Spirit isn't what this deck wants you want to drop a finisher not slowly wither them down with Lantern Spirit.
Grave Titan or Sphinx are the best options.
Ponder is better than visions just because the filtering is needed in this deck the instant speed doesn't make up for that.
Lost in Mist isn't Cryptic Command although if it had cost 2UU it would be playable at 5 it's junk.
Esper isn't going to work the manabases are to fragile now with the loss of fetchlands.
Forbidden Alchemy is one of the best cards in the deck it allows you to dig for an answer at instant speed and it get's ridiculous when combined with snapcaster.
I'd rather drop a lantern turn 3/4 or a shrieker, or pretty much anything than play him. I don't want to dump 12 mana into a win con. Yes its spread out, but that doesn't mean its efficient. It also dies to dismember, and in a format where that removal is available to all colors giving them 3-4 turns to use removal on your win con just seems like a bad idea.
UWR UWR Mid-Range
GBW Junk
Legacy
RBG Punishing Jund
Vintage
0 Ichorid
X MUD
I agree.
Here's my list that I've been working on for an hour or so. No chance to play it yet, but I'll try and get some games in this weekend.
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
3x Gitaxian Probe
2x Ponder
4x Think Twice
Removal/Discard:
2x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Dismember
2x Disperse
1x Doom Blade
2x Despise
2x Go for the Throat
Creatures:
2x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Grave Titan
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Mana Leak
1x Negate
2x Dissipate
Land:
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Nephalia Drownyard
7x Island
7x Swamp
1x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Despise
1x Frost Titan
1x Karn Liberated
3x Mental Misstep
2x Steel Sabotage
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Venser's Journal
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Frankly, the only cards I'm sold on in the sideboard are the BSZ, Despises, Wurmcoil, and Missteps. Everything else could probably be replaced with something, I just have no clue what the metagame will look like. Nihil Spellbombs are a likely candidate.
I'm uncertain as to how good Nephalia Drownyard will be. Sure, it's an alternate win condition, but some matchups the card will actually benefit the opponent, and that's bad news bears. Nevertheless, I want to try running it. Ghost Quarter is probably a better choice, though.
And speaking of colourless rare land, I'm not sure if I like what people are doing with Inkmoth Nexus in this thread. It seems that some people are just jamming it in their deck because it's a $12 rare. The variants running swords/batterskull are fine running Nexus, but is there really a point to playing it without equipment?
Has anyone actually tested with lost in mist? I'm not convinced on it but as the upper end of counter spells it seems like it could be helpful. tho idk.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
I like your sideboard besides the journal. It comes out way too slow for the lifegain to be relevant imo. If you're hurting for life against aggro then sorin's thirst is probably a better answer. Gives you two life and removes whatever two toughness beater your aggro opponent has.
UWR UWR Mid-Range
GBW Junk
Legacy
RBG Punishing Jund
Vintage
0 Ichorid
X MUD
Lets clarify something now people. Cards like lantern spirit are what allow the concept of draw go to exist. Lets say I drop this guy t5 w/ counter mana open. You try to cast a titan, i counter it. Next turn, 2 dmg, i draw some more answers and you get another chance to try and land a spell. If it's a creature, it will probably get removed, if not, probably countered, but this little 2/1 flyer? Still there. Granted, against geists he might not be so hot, so I might end up spliting him w/ wurmcoil or something, but wtf is grave titan going to do against UW but die? Seriously. This dude blocks and can survive on his own, dodge day of judgement. His flexibility is what makes him viable. That being said, grave titan will stay in my 75.
The main problem with lantern is that hes terrible when facing down a mid range style deck. With valakut gone we'll see a lot more of them most likely. Decks that drop T3 thrun T4-5 Titan will make lantern a lot less relevant. Yes we do run sweepers, but only 1-2. I don't want to be running too many creatures that cant go toe to toe with other threats if things go bad. A grave titan/wurm coil/sphinx can buy you time and give either high board presence or massive CA. Lantern is nice and resilient, but that's about it.
UWR UWR Mid-Range
GBW Junk
Legacy
RBG Punishing Jund
Vintage
0 Ichorid
X MUD
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Dull roots with spring rain.
-TS Eliot, The Waste Land
I'd rather spend T1 using ponder or despise. I'd rather spend T2 reading mana leak. The early turns are preparing your answers. I doubt a 3/2 flyer at best will do that much, plus would you really want to waste your response protecting him?
UWR UWR Mid-Range
GBW Junk
Legacy
RBG Punishing Jund
Vintage
0 Ichorid
X MUD
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Dull roots with spring rain.
-TS Eliot, The Waste Land
Figure of Destiny saw a lot of play, true. In a completely different type of deck. Kargan Dragonlord is similar and also saw a lot of play, but again, in a completely different type of deck. Draw-go is supposed to be about getting value out of every single card you have. Dropping the test subject, then investing 10 mana into him only to get it Dismembered/Doom Blades/GftTed etc. is quite the opposite of value, whereas if your titan gets killed then you still have zombies, or if your sphinx gets killed you still drew two cards, etc. etc.
Moving on to the debate about Lantern Spirit where I will discuss how good the card is in the deck and not how it defines draw-go or any other irrelevant facts, I think both sides bring up good points. The card is evasive, but like another poster said, the resurgence of midrange decks is going to make it less appealing. I believe the deck can function fine without it, but it's certainly plausible to run 1-2 (maybe even 3, but that's pushing it), preferably in the sideboard.
The main reason cards like titan and sphinx have to survive is because you only have the 1-4 of them in the deck AND they come down late. If your mana would not be used for other things the 10 mana invested is not truely an investment.. Yes the finishers are still need, but he fullfils a completely different spot in this deck. He is much more like Wall of Omens, from when Jund was previlant, he provide you a chance to stablize while also working toward the decks goal.
I think the main issue with the lanturn is that although it is hard to kill it also requires 4 mana to be fully usable. if they continue to swing with a thrun for you to continually block that means you have to be tapping 4 mana each turn.. That leave no or very little mana open for counters and kills. She's just to spendy to be good in this deck.. inkmoth is comparable and ten times better.
Modern:
UWThe End ForetoldUW
If you were referring to my post i wasnt comparing them as which one to use, i was noting their interaction as a poweful instant speed draw enigne together.
And you nailed it with what you said about the winconditions, thats why spirit is so good.
The word is this a control deck not an aggro deck or fish deck.
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Dull roots with spring rain.
-TS Eliot, The Waste Land
First off comparing this card to wall of omens is ridiculous. Wall of omens, this card soaks up mana like a sponge. If omens didn't cantrip it would of seen a lot less play. Again, I'd rather leave my turn 2-4 mana open for counterspells/removal. Go ahead and test him, but hes a fairly obvious timmy/limited bomb. The finishers we play are good finishers because they either are extremely resilient(wurmcoil) or impact the game before your next turn (sphinx/titans). This card does neither. Also, comparing this card to FoD is a hefty statement. Beyond being used in a completely different deck, FoD was a beater that upgraded throughout the game, where as this card is worthless until he eats 12 mana. At least FoD was being relevant as a 2/2 or 4/4. You could also force your opponent to remove him before sinking a lot of mana because he was a threat the whole game. Your opponent will know that he has 3-5 turns to deal with the card so he'll just play around it.
When you play a permission style deck, its a attrition battle. Dumping 12 mana in a guy that probably won't do anything isn't helping your cause.
UWR UWR Mid-Range
GBW Junk
Legacy
RBG Punishing Jund
Vintage
0 Ichorid
X MUD