I think adding blue, unless a really small splash, could make casting garruk2.0 awkward as well as everything Cody said.
On another note, could garruk 3.0 fit in here? He makes an army too, though a weaker one, but costs 1 mana less and Also eats little aggro dudes and utility creatures then tutors for creatures even gsz can't! Seems like mirror tech at the very least. It's Jace wars all over again! I'm gonna try one main over the fourth primal hunter for now, if the mirror becomes a real thing then a couple could hit the board too.
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Standard: Humanimator
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
My meta is mostly pod/rdw/steel but 4-5 of the best player play b/u control u/w control or solar flare.
I put 2 trun main and 2 side ... Any good card i can play main/side to help my control matchup ?
I've noticed this problem as well (and it was happening vs. Valakut last season too).. How about Autumn's Veil? 1 mana counter your couterspell or removal.. I haven't tested it yet -- anyone here with experience on that?
Don't forget that Wurmcoil acts as a pseudo-titan in itself. I've had numerous games where tutoring for a Wurmcoil put me in a far better position than digging up a Titan.
Don't forget that Wurmcoil acts as a pseudo-titan in itself. I've had numerous games where tutoring for a Wurmcoil put me in a far better position than digging up a Titan.
really? What card did you use to tutor up a Wurmcoil? Tinker?
Result :
Round 1 vs WW/u blade 2-0
Game 1 : Slagstorm and Titan controlling the game
Game 2 : Drew 6 cards from Wurmcoil Engine, cast Karn to exile Sword of War and Peace on Invisible Stalker....ouch it hurts..
Opponent conceded, having no answer to Karn
Round 2 vs RDW 2-1
Game 1 :Had 3 Wurmcoil Engine but lost due to mana screw
Game 2 : 2 Wurmcoil FTW
Game 3 : 2 Titan FTW
Round 3 vs RUG Pod 1-2
Game 1 : Lost because Acidic Slime poding to Frost Titan then Phantasmal Image to Titan
Game 2 : Titan FTW + 2 Kessig Wolf Run
Game 3 : Destroyed the 1st Pod with Viridian Corrupter, had no better answer for 2nd pod coz my opponent play first. My 4th Land was acidic slimed. Lost because Acidic Slime and Phantasmal Image, Poding to 2 Frost Titan then Phantasmal Image. Small note : 1 Viridian Corrupter isn't enough
- Round 4 vs UW blade 0-2
Game 1 : Feast and Famine FTW
Game 2 : Couldn't handle Mirran Crusader
Note :
My Sideboard was random coz still couldn't find any Tree of Redemption and few other cards
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Doing good job on the main board, but I usually side out it 1-2. Maybe 4 of is too many
Viridian Corrupter on the sideboard
Need at least 2 on the sideboard for the effectiveness of GSZ
Only 1 Sword of Feast and Famine coz I traded away before FNM and didn't bring spare. Should bring 2-3 on the sideboard
Tree of Redemption
Really need on the sideboard at least 2
Gonna find and buy it
Devil's Play, Red Sun's Zenith, Mindslaver, Mayor Avabruck weren't awesome at all
How are people siding for the mirror? I really like the idea of devils play maybe even in the main. You won't win the mirror with infect and so drawing devils play after t5 is putting your opponent on a short clock. Burn to the face and flashback next turn ftw. It's also another main deck answer to mirran crusaders.
Thoughts on:
Main
-1 wurmcoil
+1 devils play basically acts as a threat like coil.
sB
-1 Thrun (we have 6 virtuals in the deck) or sword
+1 devils play
i've been getting good results out of Devil's Play. i have 2 in my maindeck and 1 more in the board.
in game 1 against aggro, you just use it early as a removal spell. there's nothing wrong with casting it on turn 2 or 3 for X=1 or 2 to take out an early attacker. in the midgame its a pretty handy way to blow away a Koth. the flashback is often unused here, but will sometimes come in to mop up a remaining Grim Lavamancer or something. totally respectable.
in game 1 against control it just solidifies your inevitability by a huge amount. even if all your titans get killed and you can't get there with Inkmoth's because they have a big flyer (Consecrated Sphinx maybe) or something, you still have double fireballs. you can blast enemy titans with them or just blow their head off. the damage throughput on a full Devil's Play can be very high in the late game. 8 lands will yield 12 damage total, 9 lands will yield 14, 10 lands will yield 16 damage. just huge. its sufficient that even one connect with a Titan or a couple of pokes with with your dorks will be lethal.
in game 1 in the mirror this gives you a really nice way of taking out Garruk. better than Beast Within most of the time because leaving them with a 3/3 is a pain. better still because it will lurk in your graveyard so a few turns later you can use it again to take out another Garruk (or even a Titan if its late enough). and of course you can just use it to burst damage win in a damage race.
after sideboarding it comes out vs. Aggro, because while it works ok in game 1 you certainly want to upgrade it to a more efficient removal spell in game 2 (Arc Trail or Ancient Grudge or whateveR). i bring in the 3rd one after boarding vs. control and mirror though. its very good.
I'm curious to hear more discussion about Devil's Play vs Red Sun's Zenith. The fact that RSZ exiles seems very relevant in the mirror.
Another card I'm curious about is Skinshifter. I really liked having it early game against Tempered Steel. It seems good to have the option of a guy that sometimes trades w/ fliers, but sometimes beats face as an X/4 trampler, and sometimes just soaks up attackers as an X/8.
How are people siding for the mirror? I really like the idea of devils play maybe even in the main. You won't win the mirror with infect and so drawing devils play after t5 is putting your opponent on a short clock. Burn to the face and flashback next turn ftw. It's also another main deck answer to mirran crusaders.
Thoughts on:
Main
-1 wurmcoil
+1 devils play basically acts as a threat like coil.
sB
-1 Thrun (we have 6 virtuals in the deck) or sword
+1 devils play
I think I am giong to go a strange route for the mirror. I am going to side out my Wurmcoils and side in Thrun. I will attempt to beat them with Thrun + Wolf Run and make the ancient grudges they side in dead cards vs me.
I am happy the list I designed is tearing stuff up. For all the brewers here on MTGS, don't ever stop because your lists could end up at the top of a format.
Batterskull as a 1 of in main somewhere and maybe a 1 of in the sideboard is what I was trying to incorperate before Brian went off and won the tournament ;). If you guys are trying to evolve the archetype, I'd be looking in that direction.
And for reference, I am the Chris he was referencing in his article :D.
Deathtouch and Trample don’t interact this way together. In order to deal damage to your opponent you must first deal damage greater than the creatures toughness, deathtouch is irrelevant when trample is involved I’m afraid guys.
This ruling was changed with the most recent major rules update (m10 I believe). If a creature has deathtouch, it only needs to assign 1 damage for that damage to be lethal. So giving it trample will allow you to trample over one blocker for damage to the player's dome of the creature's power minus one.
Deathtouch and Trample don’t interact this way together. In order to deal damage to your opponent you must first deal damage greater than the creatures toughness, deathtouch is irrelevant when trample is involved I’m afraid guys.
You are wrong, please get familiar with the rules change in M11.
Deathtouch and Trample don’t interact this way together. In order to deal damage to your opponent you must first deal damage greater than the creatures toughness, deathtouch is irrelevant when trample is involved I’m afraid guys.
Incorrect. One point of deathtouch damage is enough to kill a creature, so the rest can be assigned to the player. I.e. A Wurmcoil Engine with Trample will deal 1 damage to a blocking creature, and then 5 to the player.
...now, what does everyone feel about cutting Beast Withins or Garruks? 4 seems to be a bit much for either card, doesn't it?
nope, I've been testing my solar flare deck against this deck for states and these are two of your best cards in the matchup. my only answer to a resolved garruk is oblivion ring, and eot beast within on my o-ring is a beating
what i'm really here for though is sideboard cards for solar flare to bring in against you guys. i'm thinking flashfreezes obviously and a 4th o-ring. what else?
what i'm really here for though is sideboard cards for solar flare to bring in against you guys. i'm thinking flashfreezes obviously and a 4th o-ring. what else?
Hm... Besides Flashfreeze and Oblivion Ring? Off the top of my head, I would not want to deal with Despise, Surgical Extraction, Doom Blade, Memoricide... disruption cards from black, as well as Gideon Jura to buy a turn or so. Your problem is that most decks have a narrow window turn 1-4 to either beat or disrupt Kessig Wolf Run into a long battle, but even then it's a long haul. Like all Primeval Titan strategies though, you go for the Titan first, then dismantle what you can from there.
Another thing I noticed from the Nashville coverage is that Grave Titan is a more effective finisher against Kessig Wolf Run than Sun Titan or Consecrated Sphinx (probably not Wurmcoil Engine though) because the tokens can outpace Garruk's Tokens and overtake a green swarm in general if you can back the Grave Titan up.
But best of luck at States. Hope you do win... second place right behind Wolf Run Ramp.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I really think that this deck is shaping up to be the one to beat this season (or at least the one that everyone will be gunning for this weekend ). Reading the other decklist threads, Wolf Run Ramp is the one that everyone is concerned about facing. All of this talk also means that it's going to be a popular choice and we should be looking at facing the mirror.
Thompson over at StarCity seems to think that running Dungrove Elder will give Wolf Run the edge in mirror (he went so far as to rebuild the deck around it). Is the Elder a worthy sideboard card?
I tested a bit. I kept holding onto slagstorm for some reason. Is it an auto include? What other replacements are viable?
I keep wondering the same. Maybe swap them for Devil's Play when you don't need the mass weenie removal? Devil's play can be cast earlier to ping problem 1/1s and either recast or dumped into as a late game win... a bit more versatility, but you give up mass removal.
Dungrove Elders don't serve the same purpose, but they share the same 3 CMC and without Slagstorm (1RR) you can cut your mountains back. I think I'm going to playtest this version a bit...
^ iirc, I read someone using it as a secret tech back in Valakut. It has evasion against Liliana's edict at least, Can't be O-Ringed, can't be doom bladed/gftt. ( I could be wrong though)
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UR Control
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Merfolk
Burn
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On another note, could garruk 3.0 fit in here? He makes an army too, though a weaker one, but costs 1 mana less and Also eats little aggro dudes and utility creatures then tutors for creatures even gsz can't! Seems like mirror tech at the very least. It's Jace wars all over again! I'm gonna try one main over the fourth primal hunter for now, if the mirror becomes a real thing then a couple could hit the board too.
Modern: Jund, Wafo-Tapa UWR
Legacy: Witch-Maw Stoneblade
EDH: Ruhan of the Fomori, Hazezon Tamar, Maga, Traitor to Mortals
I've noticed this problem as well (and it was happening vs. Valakut last season too).. How about Autumn's Veil? 1 mana counter your couterspell or removal.. I haven't tested it yet -- anyone here with experience on that?
Standard
W Voltron W
W Tempered Steel W
GB Infect BG
any1 have SB ideas for the mirror? i was thinking 3 acidic slimes cause they are good vs control as well.
really? What card did you use to tutor up a Wurmcoil? Tinker?
Edit: I guess treasure mage would work.
Zenith?
Standard
W Voltron W
W Tempered Steel W
GB Infect BG
Went 2-2 (only 14 people though)
was a little bit sick due to fever, but forcing to join the FNM
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Wurmcoil Engine
Creatures
1 Acidic Slime
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Primeval Titan
4 Viridian Emissary
Instants
4 Beast Within
Planeswalkers
4 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Rampant Growth
3 Slagstorm
1 Devil's Play
8 Forest
3 Mountain
Lands
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Rootbound Crag
2 Acidic Slime
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Mindslaver
2 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Red Sun's Zenith
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Karn Liberated
1 Viridian Corrupter
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Slagstorm
Result :
Round 1 vs WW/u blade 2-0
Game 1 : Slagstorm and Titan controlling the game
Game 2 : Drew 6 cards from Wurmcoil Engine, cast Karn to exile Sword of War and Peace on Invisible Stalker....ouch it hurts..
Opponent conceded, having no answer to Karn
Round 2 vs RDW 2-1
Game 1 :Had 3 Wurmcoil Engine but lost due to mana screw
Game 2 : 2 Wurmcoil FTW
Game 3 : 2 Titan FTW
Round 3 vs RUG Pod 1-2
Game 1 : Lost because Acidic Slime poding to Frost Titan then Phantasmal Image to Titan
Game 2 : Titan FTW + 2 Kessig Wolf Run
Game 3 : Destroyed the 1st Pod with Viridian Corrupter, had no better answer for 2nd pod coz my opponent play first. My 4th Land was acidic slimed. Lost because Acidic Slime and Phantasmal Image, Poding to 2 Frost Titan then Phantasmal Image. Small note : 1 Viridian Corrupter isn't enough
- Round 4 vs UW blade 0-2
Game 1 : Feast and Famine FTW
Game 2 : Couldn't handle Mirran Crusader
Note :
My Sideboard was random coz still couldn't find any Tree of Redemption and few other cards
Garruk, Primal Hunter
Doing good job on the main board, but I usually side out it 1-2. Maybe 4 of is too many
Viridian Corrupter on the sideboard
Need at least 2 on the sideboard for the effectiveness of GSZ
Only 1 Sword of Feast and Famine coz I traded away before FNM and didn't bring spare. Should bring 2-3 on the sideboard
Tree of Redemption
Really need on the sideboard at least 2
Gonna find and buy it
Devil's Play, Red Sun's Zenith, Mindslaver, Mayor Avabruck weren't awesome at all
Any feedback is welcome
:symr::symu::symg: Canadian Threshold
EDH
Ashling the Pilgrim
Thoughts on:
Main
-1 wurmcoil
+1 devils play basically acts as a threat like coil.
sB
-1 Thrun (we have 6 virtuals in the deck) or sword
+1 devils play
Wow. Touche'.
Standard
W Voltron W
W Tempered Steel W
GB Infect BG
in game 1 against aggro, you just use it early as a removal spell. there's nothing wrong with casting it on turn 2 or 3 for X=1 or 2 to take out an early attacker. in the midgame its a pretty handy way to blow away a Koth. the flashback is often unused here, but will sometimes come in to mop up a remaining Grim Lavamancer or something. totally respectable.
in game 1 against control it just solidifies your inevitability by a huge amount. even if all your titans get killed and you can't get there with Inkmoth's because they have a big flyer (Consecrated Sphinx maybe) or something, you still have double fireballs. you can blast enemy titans with them or just blow their head off. the damage throughput on a full Devil's Play can be very high in the late game. 8 lands will yield 12 damage total, 9 lands will yield 14, 10 lands will yield 16 damage. just huge. its sufficient that even one connect with a Titan or a couple of pokes with with your dorks will be lethal.
in game 1 in the mirror this gives you a really nice way of taking out Garruk. better than Beast Within most of the time because leaving them with a 3/3 is a pain. better still because it will lurk in your graveyard so a few turns later you can use it again to take out another Garruk (or even a Titan if its late enough). and of course you can just use it to burst damage win in a damage race.
after sideboarding it comes out vs. Aggro, because while it works ok in game 1 you certainly want to upgrade it to a more efficient removal spell in game 2 (Arc Trail or Ancient Grudge or whateveR). i bring in the 3rd one after boarding vs. control and mirror though. its very good.
Another card I'm curious about is Skinshifter. I really liked having it early game against Tempered Steel. It seems good to have the option of a guy that sometimes trades w/ fliers, but sometimes beats face as an X/4 trampler, and sometimes just soaks up attackers as an X/8.
@MarkBGH on Twitter | Bloody Good Horror
I think I am giong to go a strange route for the mirror. I am going to side out my Wurmcoils and side in Thrun. I will attempt to beat them with Thrun + Wolf Run and make the ancient grudges they side in dead cards vs me.
Batterskull as a 1 of in main somewhere and maybe a 1 of in the sideboard is what I was trying to incorperate before Brian went off and won the tournament ;). If you guys are trying to evolve the archetype, I'd be looking in that direction.
And for reference, I am the Chris he was referencing in his article :D.
Thanks spiderboy4 from High~Light Studios
Member of Team Revolution
This ruling was changed with the most recent major rules update (m10 I believe). If a creature has deathtouch, it only needs to assign 1 damage for that damage to be lethal. So giving it trample will allow you to trample over one blocker for damage to the player's dome of the creature's power minus one.
You are wrong, please get familiar with the rules change in M11.
EDIT: Here's your proof
Incorrect. One point of deathtouch damage is enough to kill a creature, so the rest can be assigned to the player. I.e. A Wurmcoil Engine with Trample will deal 1 damage to a blocking creature, and then 5 to the player.
Citation: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=364239. You will have to scroll down.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
nope, I've been testing my solar flare deck against this deck for states and these are two of your best cards in the matchup. my only answer to a resolved garruk is oblivion ring, and eot beast within on my o-ring is a beating
what i'm really here for though is sideboard cards for solar flare to bring in against you guys. i'm thinking flashfreezes obviously and a 4th o-ring. what else?
Another thing I noticed from the Nashville coverage is that Grave Titan is a more effective finisher against Kessig Wolf Run than Sun Titan or Consecrated Sphinx (probably not Wurmcoil Engine though) because the tokens can outpace Garruk's Tokens and overtake a green swarm in general if you can back the Grave Titan up.
But best of luck at States. Hope you do win... second place right behind Wolf Run Ramp.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge
Thompson over at StarCity seems to think that running Dungrove Elder will give Wolf Run the edge in mirror (he went so far as to rebuild the deck around it). Is the Elder a worthy sideboard card?
I keep wondering the same. Maybe swap them for Devil's Play when you don't need the mass weenie removal? Devil's play can be cast earlier to ping problem 1/1s and either recast or dumped into as a late game win... a bit more versatility, but you give up mass removal.
Dungrove Elders don't serve the same purpose, but they share the same 3 CMC and without Slagstorm (1RR) you can cut your mountains back. I think I'm going to playtest this version a bit...
Standard
UR Control
Modern
Merfolk
Burn
Avacyn did nothing wrong!
Purify Innistrad!
#Purge