You already have grave hate in Nihil Spellbomb. Like I said, in theory flashback > Draw-Go, but there are enough answers that makes me doubt that it will ever happen.
Ancient Grudge is the direct counter against Ratchet Bomb, up to two times (although it probably isn't enough anyway).
I meant it as in future innistrad will have grave cards to hate out control. But yeah I agree with Spellbomb being good against graves like it would be
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Notable Outcomes
2nd @ PTQ San Juan 2010 [RDW]
3rd @ Provincials 2011 [Solar Flare]
1st @ GPT Orlando 2011 [Mono G Wolf Run]
T8'd @ GPT LA 2012 [UW Delver]
T8'd @ GPT Vancouver 2012 [RW Humans]
T8'd @ GPT Toronto 2012 [UWR Midrange]
Attended GP Toronto 2012, but didn't get there [UR Twin]
Currently top 8'd every GPT I ever entered
Draw Go is real, believe it. I just went 7-2-1, good for 31st, at the SCG Open in Indy but effectively went 8-1-1 as I received a game loss that cost me a match in which I had the win on board. Myself and two friends all played UB and the only two UB decks to top 32 were myself and my friend, you can find our lists on the Open coverage or in Pat Chapin's article from the other day, our names are Peter and Matt.
We tested the entire night before against mono red and were splitting game 1's down the line. The games only get easier after board, so RDW might be a coin flip but I wouldn't consider it a bad matchup.
I played against 3 UW decks, all with Geist and Moorland Haunt. I went 2-0-1 against them. While they certainly are tricky to deal with and will kill you quickly if unanswered, I didn't have that much problems with the Geist or Mirran Crusader for that matter. UB has many options that deal with these creatures quite easily, I cast Tribute to Hunger to get the Geist numerous times and Black Sun Zenith still does what its done for the last year, kill everything in play. Moorland Haunt was not effective as a win condition without a Sword in play. I didn't play Ghost Quarter (probably a mistake) so I could never remove a Moorland Haunt but it turned out I never needed to. I clocked my UW opponent numerous times with Nephalia Drownyard with no fear of the Haunt. It's hard to be proactive while keeping up mana to activate Moorland Haunt all the time.
I would play more Drownyards if I had to play the open over again. Throughout the tournament I realized how effective the card could be as a win condition in a draw go style deck. Against Solar Flare I just allowed them to dig deep with Forbidden Alchemy and Think Twice. After countering Unburial Rites a few times and activating Drownyard a few times they just die. Same against UW. I am playing a deck that is fully reactive while they are playing a deck that is trying to be proactive with Geist or mirran Crusader and Sword of Feast and Famine and then reacting after they put that plan into action. The UW decks felt very inadequate once the game progressed to the late stage as they floundered to resolve a threat while I just sat back on a semi full grip and continue to flashback spells like forbidden alchemy and mill them out with Drownyard. It's certainly slow, but I won 5 or 6 games on the day without dealing a single point of damage.
Anyone saying UB Draw Go is not a real deck is just wrong. If you write the deck off and don't prepare for it you are going to lose to it. I punted a match I had locked up and my buddy lost in round 10 on the bubble. My final record should have been 8-1-1 which was the cut off for top. The deck is real.
UW has DoJ, Oblivion Ring, Gideon, and can still cast Dismember. This is far more valuable as a 'removal package' than Doom Blade, GftT, and Black Sun's Zenith.
UW has DoJ, Timely Reinforcements, Oblivion Ring, Gideon, and can still cast Dismember. This is far more valuable as a 'removal package' than Doom Blade, GftT, and Black Sun's Zenith.
No, no it is not. Instant speed is a big deal in a draw go style deck.
No, no it is not. Instant speed is a big deal in a draw go style deck.
Sure it is. So is Wrath of God. It takes black 6 or more mana to do what white can do with 4. That is much more vital than Doom Blade/GftT(especially when you can just run Dismember in any deck you want). Also, white has a planeswalker that is good all of the time, and can soak tons of damage, kill guys, AND attack for 6.
Black would be a necessary color if Dismember were never printed. But Dismember obviously was printed, and almost completely invalidates :symb:.
Black has one advantage over white right now. It can kill Thrun without much effort. That is almost all it has going for it, and doesn't matter enough. Especially when a UB deck cannot destroy a non-creature artifact or enchantment under any circumstances ever. If a red deck resolves a Shrine against UB, it becomes almost impossible for UB to win. The same goes for copies of Tempered Steel.
If you think that UB is better than UW right now, you are kidding yourself. Plain and simple.
How you can call the deck Draw-Go without Nevinyrral's Disk or Capsize is beyond me. Damn that deck was brutal
maybe I'm too old
Not too old. Disk and Capsize are light years ahead of any "draw go" answer we have today.
Honestly, though, control has evolved since the golden years of draw go. The way in which WotC has directed Magic has changed the way we play control strategies, especially in standard. No longer is holding up counter magic the best way to control a game. Tap out strategies including planeswalkers have been some of the best avenues of control over the last few years, as well as aggro control hybrids that maintain control of the tempo of the game while simultaneously applying early pressure. I don't know if we'll ever see a true "draw go" archetype in Magic again.
Look at a format like Legacy. Even when control magic was at its highest premium (just recently, with Mental Misstep) control strategies still utilized cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Vendilion Clique to apply that early pressure. Look at Modern. Control decks aren't all about giving permission and gaining incremental advantages. Rather, they use powerful tutor effects like Mystical Teachings and Gifts Ungiven. UB Teachings in Modern is probably the closest draw go deck I've seen played in any format over the last few years, and that's a completely different deck than the old draw go strategies.
I think people misappropriate the term "draw go" these days, as well as pine over "the good ol' days" in which draw go was even a viable strategy. Everyone talks about these non-existent "UB draw go" lists and I just don't see it. Players tend to live in Magical Christmasland more often than not. The guys that think Snapcasting Doom Blade ten thousand times per game will get them there are the same folks who have been heralding the return of Mono Black Control over the last half a decade. It's just not going to happen. The best lists I've seen that even resemble a draw go strategy are UW and utilize the interaction between Snapcaster Mage and Midnight Haunting to, once again, apply early pressure.
tl;dr, get these damn kids off my lawn-esque rant
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Sure it is. So is Wrath of God. It takes black 6 or more mana to do what white can do with 4. That is much more vital than Doom Blade/GftT(especially when you can just run Dismember in any deck you want). Also, white has a planeswalker that is good all of the time, and can soak tons of damage, kill guys, AND attack for 6.
Black would be a necessary color if Dismember were never printed. But Dismember obviously was printed, and almost completely invalidates :symb:.
Black has one advantage over white right now. It can kill Thrun without much effort. That is almost all it has going for it, and doesn't matter enough. Especially when a UB deck cannot destroy a non-creature artifact or enchantment under any circumstances ever. If a red deck resolves a Shrine against UB, it becomes almost impossible for UB to win. The same goes for copies of Tempered Steel.
If you think that UB is better than UW right now, you are kidding yourself. Plain and simple.
Can your wrath of god be played turn 3 to take out a bunch of tempered steel creatures? Can your oblivion ring be flashbacked with snapcaster mage? What white creature compares to grave titan as a finisher? Can u/w flashback forbidden alchemy? Can you play multiple dismembers for one mana against aggressive decks? There is a very clear reason for running black over white, so by talking down to u/b players makes you look ignorant. Not to mention your wrong about a single resolved shrine being game over for u/b players, as well as multiple copies of tempered steel.
Can your wrath of god be played turn 3 to take out a bunch of tempered steel creatures? Can your oblivion ring be flashbacked with snapcaster mage? What white creature compares to grave titan as a finisher? Can u/w flashback forbidden alchemy? Can you play multiple dismembers for one mana against aggressive decks? There is a very clear reason for running black over white, so by talking down to u/b players makes you look ignorant.
Oh, please. Can your Doom Blade take out an artifact or enchantment? Have fun paying 6BB to wrath a field of large creatures. Etc etc etc.
See? Anyone can do that.
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Oh, please. Can your Doom Blade take out an artifact or enchantment? Have fun paying 6BB to wrath a field of large creatures. Etc etc etc.
See? Anyone can do that.
Why there are titans in play is beyond me. Through 10 rounds of the Indy Open I never had to cast BSZ for 6. Ever. I needed to cast it many times for 2 and 3, which makes on par with Day of Judgement. Day's mana cost never varies but BSZ can kill a board of x/1s quicker and shuffles back to cast over and over.
Oh, please. Can your Doom Blade take out an artifact or enchantment? Have fun paying 6BB to wrath a field of large creatures. Etc etc etc.
See? Anyone can do that.
actually believe it or not UB is better, although as soon as the mana fixing comes around I will being running UWb. Its just not consistent enough yet. You don't get the sort of incremental advantage that you get just from dropping ***, but you go one for one like true draw-go and then draw a crap ton of cards to stay ahead until your opponent is out of resources then you drop something to win.
Sure you can't deal with non-creature permanents, but disperse + counterspells does a good enough job and timely reinforcements isn't needed for the aggro match-up believe it or not.
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Where were all these UB draw go lists at the Indiana SCG? For a deck many claim to roll over aggro, and in consideration of the metagame at Indiana, you would think UB Draw Go Super Deck would have walked away with the tournament.
Look, I'm not saying it's a terrible deck. I don't it's necessarily terrible. But until it puts up serious results at a large tournament, color me unimpressed.
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but are you trying to claim that a black sun's zenith for x=1 is actually a good play? rarely. even if you get lucky, and are on the play, and catch TS with its 1 toughness guys in play before they've had a chance to drop a TS. under even slightly different circumstances the Zenith is pretty much awful and you'd be thrilled if it was DoJ instead.
and lets not even pretend that Black Sun's Zenith (or any black sweeper) is remotely as good as DoJ at any point after turn 4.
Can your oblivion ring be flashbacked with snapcaster mage?
no, but what black cards can destroy planeswalkers, artifacts, or enchantments? not really comparable. o ring isn't just a creature removal spell.
What white creature compares to grave titan as a finisher?
Hero of Bladehold can start a lethal clock at an earlier point in the game. Gideon Jura is an incredibly fast clock that also offers board control (arguably better board control then Grave Titan). Sun Titan is no slouch either and looks awfully good when he's bringing back Phantasmal Images. but this is an almost irrelevant category to compare because awesome finishers are widely available in every color (even colorless, Wurmcoil Engine). it really is the efficiency of the rest of the deck that matters more.
Can u/w flashback forbidden alchemy?
it can with a minor black mana splash, which is doable, or forbidden alchemy can be played without the intention of flashing it back for 6B. its totally reasonable to flash it back with Snapcaster Mage, or just not try and cast it again. or, you can just build your deck to use different card drawing tools, which are also readily available. Think Twice and Divination both work.
Can you play multiple dismembers for one mana against aggressive decks?
yes, easily, if you have Timely Reinforcements to gain the life back. UW is probably a much better shell for Dismember then UB specifically for this reason.
Man, magic players love to argue. I'm mainly concerned with the aggro (rdw, tempered steel, humans) matchup. Timely reinforcements is certainly an argument in whites favor, but instant speed removal that doesn't cost 4 life seems pretty good too. Black can also get rid of hexproof dudes without resorting to sweepers, which seems relevant if geistblade or invisiblade or whatever its called is a decent chunk of the meta. Obviously nephalia drownyard > moorland haunt in a creature light deck. I guess I should just shut up and playtest...
If Draw-Go makes a comeback I think it's going to be in UW, perhaps with B splashed.
The OP is correct: the synergy between Snapcaster, TT and Alchemy is just waiting to be abused. We have Mana Leak, Dissipate and Cancel, not all twelve of which are necessary thanks to Snapcaster. White still has the best creature sweep and lots of general-purpose removal. The overall strategy has been around since the game began and it's not going away.
The biggest weakness of aggro is the same one it's always had: if it doesn't kill you in the 5 or 6 turns it wants to and then gets reset, it's dead in the water. The key to winning with permission is to survive that long. Can UW do it now? Sure, but it has to be smart. Timely Reinforcements main deck is a requirement right now, as are at least 3 Day of Judgment. You don't even need Constipated Sphinx. Gideon works as both offense and defense.
Another thing UW has going for it is that it has a lot of anti-red and anti-TS answers in the sideboard, while those decks have relatively fewer answers for hardcore control. Grand Abolisher and Shrine of Loyal Legions are a couple, and even those can be removed or shut down without a lot of fuss.
So yes, draw-go is out there, waiting. It's not an easy deck to play, nor is it cheap. With all respect to the Indy players, SCGO isn't exactly a PT. Aggro is very good right now, but where there's aggro, permission isn't far behind.
Man, magic players love to argue. I'm mainly concerned with the aggro (rdw, tempered steel, humans) matchup. Timely reinforcements is certainly an argument in whites favor, but instant speed removal that doesn't cost 4 life seems pretty good too. Black can also get rid of hexproof dudes without resorting to sweepers, which seems relevant if geistblade or invisiblade or whatever its called is a decent chunk of the meta. Obviously nephalia drownyard > moorland haunt in a creature light deck. I guess I should just shut up and playtest...
Geist with wings is scary, yes, but don't forget that Phantasmal Image also kills it. White can also just remove the wings, blue can bounce them, etc. Sure wish we had Disenchant back.
Where were all these UB draw go lists at the Indiana SCG? For a deck many claim to roll over aggro, and in consideration of the metagame at Indiana, you would think UB Draw Go Super Deck would have walked away with the tournament.
Look, I'm not saying it's a terrible deck. I don't it's necessarily terrible. But until it puts up serious results at a large tournament, color me unimpressed.
I placed 31st with draw go, you can find my list on SCG. I received a game loss when I had a match won on board, causing me to lose the match. I should have gone 8-1-1 which was the cut for top 8, although I probably would have finished 9th or 10th on breakers. The only real match I lost was to the mono green Dungrove Elder deck because 8 hexproof guys are hard to deal with, especially when some of them cannot be countered.
EDIT: BTW, I did crush all the other aggro decks I played, which included GW Humans, WU Humans, and the UW Blade decks. Was not remotely hard.
but are you trying to claim that a black sun's zenith for x=1 is actually a good play? rarely. even if you get lucky, and are on the play, and catch TS with its 1 toughness guys in play before they've had a chance to drop a TS. under even slightly different circumstances the Zenith is pretty much awful and you'd be thrilled if it was DoJ instead.
and lets not even pretend that Black Sun's Zenith (or any black sweeper) is remotely as good as DoJ at any point after turn 4.
no, but what black cards can destroy planeswalkers, artifacts, or enchantments? not really comparable. o ring isn't just a creature removal spell.
Hero of Bladehold can start a lethal clock at an earlier point in the game. Gideon Jura is an incredibly fast clock that also offers board control (arguably better board control then Grave Titan). Sun Titan is no slouch either and looks awfully good when he's bringing back Phantasmal Images. but this is an almost irrelevant category to compare because awesome finishers are widely available in every color (even colorless, Wurmcoil Engine). it really is the efficiency of the rest of the deck that matters more.
it can with a minor black mana splash, which is doable, or forbidden alchemy can be played without the intention of flashing it back for 6B. its totally reasonable to flash it back with Snapcaster Mage, or just not try and cast it again. or, you can just build your deck to use different card drawing tools, which are also readily available. Think Twice and Divination both work.
yes, easily, if you have Timely Reinforcements to gain the life back. UW is probably a much better shell for Dismember then UB specifically for this reason.
The problem is with everything you just listed is that they are not draw go cards, since they are all sorcery speed. White may have good tap-out control cards, but the lack of instant speed removal is why black is better for draw-go. Dismember is just one removal spell. Most u/b decks run dismember and doom blade. I think also people forget that oblivion ring actually has a drawback and it can be answered. As for Black suns Zenith versus Doj, yes, playing BSZ for 1 is actually relevant vs temperered steel/rdws. Sometimes they get a tempered steel though, but for the most part this only happens if they have mox down and they are on the play. U/B does have mana leak after all. And sometimes, they just won't have tempered steel in hand. In that case, I doubt your doj would be doing you any good either, since you can't play it earlier than turn 4. And don't quote sphere of the suns to me, no good draw-go player would spend their second turn tapping out. Sure BSZ looks bad if you only mention bad scenarios, but for me, I never pay more than 4-5 mana for it.
Sun Titan and Hero are answered by a single removal spell, something you cannot say about grave titan. Gideon is the same. Your whole argument about black vs white seems to putting u/w in the best scenarios and u/b in the worst.
You guys act like Draw Go has never played sorcery speed spells/effects or some nonsense. Draw go decks have traditionally featured ***, Disk, etc etc. Mass removal is always sorcery speed. And clearly you're planning on running BSZ..which is Sorcery speed.
The notion that the deck can only have instants in it is just complete garbage. Of the two control decks, UW is better. Pure and simple. What white brings to the table more than supercedes what black does.
You minimize the amount of sorcery cards. Generally in draw-go, the only sorceries you run are the sweepers and win-conditions.
Anyhow I have tested both black and white paired with blue (since draw-go is a primarily blue deck with a color splashed for removal) and no, white is not superior. Oblivion ring is not better than doom blade. Its a great card, but it has no synergy with snapcaster mage, and its a 3 mana sorcery speed card. And it can be answered by bounce spells, ratchet bomb, or just an enchantment removal spell. Grave titan is much more durable than white win conditions, since it takes a sweeper to completely remove him. White does have Doj, but thats the only reason I would actually run white. IF your playing u/w with gideon, timely reinforcements, and oblivion ring, its not draw-go.
Anyhow, people have had some success with draw-go, and alot of people are including it in their gauntlets now. You can say u/w is better all you want, but anyone who has actually tested u/b knows there is good reason to play black.
Where were all these UB draw go lists at the Indiana SCG? For a deck many claim to roll over aggro, and in consideration of the metagame at Indiana, you would think UB Draw Go Super Deck would have walked away with the tournament.
Look, I'm not saying it's a terrible deck. I don't it's necessarily terrible. But until it puts up serious results at a large tournament, color me unimpressed.
do you honestly think that people are going to take a boring deck like draw-go to the first tournament of the season? Honestly most people won't touch a true control deck because of fear or something. Permission was so good last year and yet it saw almost no results because every one has got so infatuated with aggressive decks that even most control-esque builds are just aggro with a few counterspells.
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Not EVERY card in the deck has to be recurable by Snapcaster Mage. You have 4 Snapcaster Magi and probably 18 other targets for him anyway. You're always going to have a relevant spell to target with him, in either deck. I would imagine that there are plenty of times that Doom Blade is not an idea Snapcaster target, because they don't have guys/their guys aren't targetable.
And Oblivion Ring is absolutely superior to Doom Blade. It can actually kill a Grave Titan(them having a couple of tokens is almost never relevant). And it can get rid of Wurmcoil Engine. It's somewhat of a hard comparison to make, to be fair, since they do somewhat different things.
Along with, you know, actually being able to remove non-creature spells. I don't see how UB beats RDW ever. They resolve a single shrine and you really can't win.
Also, you guys are too stuck on the semantics of the term 'draw go', when the argument is pretty clearly actually about UW Control vs. UB Control.
Where were all these UB draw go lists at the Indiana SCG? For a deck many claim to roll over aggro, and in consideration of the metagame at Indiana, you would think UB Draw Go Super Deck would have walked away with the tournament.
Look, I'm not saying it's a terrible deck. I don't it's necessarily terrible. But until it puts up serious results at a large tournament, color me unimpressed.
Nobody wants to play control at the start of a new format since most people want to play something they are familar with and/or was successful before rotation.
Also alot of people are scared to play control decks since they require a lot of testing prior to a major tournament and knowing exactly how your deck plays out against all the different matchups can be crucial to it's success at least imo.
Anyway back to UB vs UW I think they are both solid decks and viable in the current format since they both have their strengths and weaknesses I'm not really sure why people are comparing which color is better at the moment since I think both decks have a good shot at being competitive.
I imagine after states that the meta will switch back to more Control/Midrange strategies because that is usually what tends to happen at the beginning of a format an aggressive strategy takes down the first tournament SCG Indy because not many people were prepared for the deck which is normally the case with RDW anyway.
Then at the next major tournament people are ready for it and the control players will be out in force with all the hate needed to beat the aggressive strategies.
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I meant it as in future innistrad will have grave cards to hate out control. But yeah I agree with Spellbomb being good against graves like it would be
2nd @ PTQ San Juan 2010 [RDW]
3rd @ Provincials 2011 [Solar Flare]
1st @ GPT Orlando 2011 [Mono G Wolf Run]
T8'd @ GPT LA 2012 [UW Delver]
T8'd @ GPT Vancouver 2012 [RW Humans]
T8'd @ GPT Toronto 2012 [UWR Midrange]
Attended GP Toronto 2012, but didn't get there [UR Twin]
Currently top 8'd every GPT I ever entered
We tested the entire night before against mono red and were splitting game 1's down the line. The games only get easier after board, so RDW might be a coin flip but I wouldn't consider it a bad matchup.
I played against 3 UW decks, all with Geist and Moorland Haunt. I went 2-0-1 against them. While they certainly are tricky to deal with and will kill you quickly if unanswered, I didn't have that much problems with the Geist or Mirran Crusader for that matter. UB has many options that deal with these creatures quite easily, I cast Tribute to Hunger to get the Geist numerous times and Black Sun Zenith still does what its done for the last year, kill everything in play. Moorland Haunt was not effective as a win condition without a Sword in play. I didn't play Ghost Quarter (probably a mistake) so I could never remove a Moorland Haunt but it turned out I never needed to. I clocked my UW opponent numerous times with Nephalia Drownyard with no fear of the Haunt. It's hard to be proactive while keeping up mana to activate Moorland Haunt all the time.
I would play more Drownyards if I had to play the open over again. Throughout the tournament I realized how effective the card could be as a win condition in a draw go style deck. Against Solar Flare I just allowed them to dig deep with Forbidden Alchemy and Think Twice. After countering Unburial Rites a few times and activating Drownyard a few times they just die. Same against UW. I am playing a deck that is fully reactive while they are playing a deck that is trying to be proactive with Geist or mirran Crusader and Sword of Feast and Famine and then reacting after they put that plan into action. The UW decks felt very inadequate once the game progressed to the late stage as they floundered to resolve a threat while I just sat back on a semi full grip and continue to flashback spells like forbidden alchemy and mill them out with Drownyard. It's certainly slow, but I won 5 or 6 games on the day without dealing a single point of damage.
Anyone saying UB Draw Go is not a real deck is just wrong. If you write the deck off and don't prepare for it you are going to lose to it. I punted a match I had locked up and my buddy lost in round 10 on the bubble. My final record should have been 8-1-1 which was the cut off for top. The deck is real.
No, no it is not. Instant speed is a big deal in a draw go style deck.
maybe I'm too old
Standard:
GU Prophet
Legacy:
WBU Shared Fate
Trades
Sure it is. So is Wrath of God. It takes black 6 or more mana to do what white can do with 4. That is much more vital than Doom Blade/GftT(especially when you can just run Dismember in any deck you want). Also, white has a planeswalker that is good all of the time, and can soak tons of damage, kill guys, AND attack for 6.
Black would be a necessary color if Dismember were never printed. But Dismember obviously was printed, and almost completely invalidates :symb:.
Black has one advantage over white right now. It can kill Thrun without much effort. That is almost all it has going for it, and doesn't matter enough. Especially when a UB deck cannot destroy a non-creature artifact or enchantment under any circumstances ever. If a red deck resolves a Shrine against UB, it becomes almost impossible for UB to win. The same goes for copies of Tempered Steel.
If you think that UB is better than UW right now, you are kidding yourself. Plain and simple.
Not too old. Disk and Capsize are light years ahead of any "draw go" answer we have today.
Honestly, though, control has evolved since the golden years of draw go. The way in which WotC has directed Magic has changed the way we play control strategies, especially in standard. No longer is holding up counter magic the best way to control a game. Tap out strategies including planeswalkers have been some of the best avenues of control over the last few years, as well as aggro control hybrids that maintain control of the tempo of the game while simultaneously applying early pressure. I don't know if we'll ever see a true "draw go" archetype in Magic again.
Look at a format like Legacy. Even when control magic was at its highest premium (just recently, with Mental Misstep) control strategies still utilized cards like Stoneforge Mystic and Vendilion Clique to apply that early pressure. Look at Modern. Control decks aren't all about giving permission and gaining incremental advantages. Rather, they use powerful tutor effects like Mystical Teachings and Gifts Ungiven. UB Teachings in Modern is probably the closest draw go deck I've seen played in any format over the last few years, and that's a completely different deck than the old draw go strategies.
I think people misappropriate the term "draw go" these days, as well as pine over "the good ol' days" in which draw go was even a viable strategy. Everyone talks about these non-existent "UB draw go" lists and I just don't see it. Players tend to live in Magical Christmasland more often than not. The guys that think Snapcasting Doom Blade ten thousand times per game will get them there are the same folks who have been heralding the return of Mono Black Control over the last half a decade. It's just not going to happen. The best lists I've seen that even resemble a draw go strategy are UW and utilize the interaction between Snapcaster Mage and Midnight Haunting to, once again, apply early pressure.
tl;dr, get these damn kids off my lawn-esque rant
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Rest In Peace my friend, don't let these complete scrubs ruin your glorious time by spewing "Draw-Go" every time they see a terribly crappy spell.
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You too. You have to actually add to the convo.
Can your wrath of god be played turn 3 to take out a bunch of tempered steel creatures? Can your oblivion ring be flashbacked with snapcaster mage? What white creature compares to grave titan as a finisher? Can u/w flashback forbidden alchemy? Can you play multiple dismembers for one mana against aggressive decks? There is a very clear reason for running black over white, so by talking down to u/b players makes you look ignorant. Not to mention your wrong about a single resolved shrine being game over for u/b players, as well as multiple copies of tempered steel.
Oh, please. Can your Doom Blade take out an artifact or enchantment? Have fun paying 6BB to wrath a field of large creatures. Etc etc etc.
See? Anyone can do that.
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Why there are titans in play is beyond me. Through 10 rounds of the Indy Open I never had to cast BSZ for 6. Ever. I needed to cast it many times for 2 and 3, which makes on par with Day of Judgement. Day's mana cost never varies but BSZ can kill a board of x/1s quicker and shuffles back to cast over and over.
actually believe it or not UB is better, although as soon as the mana fixing comes around I will being running UWb. Its just not consistent enough yet. You don't get the sort of incremental advantage that you get just from dropping ***, but you go one for one like true draw-go and then draw a crap ton of cards to stay ahead until your opponent is out of resources then you drop something to win.
Sure you can't deal with non-creature permanents, but disperse + counterspells does a good enough job and timely reinforcements isn't needed for the aggro match-up believe it or not.
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Look, I'm not saying it's a terrible deck. I don't it's necessarily terrible. But until it puts up serious results at a large tournament, color me unimpressed.
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Currently Playing:
Anything U in Theogony IX's Cube: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=5794231&postcount=1
Check out our EDH Cube! Constructive discussion welcomed. Hell, just a response would be nice.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=8316611&postcount=1
yes actually, with a Sphere of the Suns.
but are you trying to claim that a black sun's zenith for x=1 is actually a good play? rarely. even if you get lucky, and are on the play, and catch TS with its 1 toughness guys in play before they've had a chance to drop a TS. under even slightly different circumstances the Zenith is pretty much awful and you'd be thrilled if it was DoJ instead.
and lets not even pretend that Black Sun's Zenith (or any black sweeper) is remotely as good as DoJ at any point after turn 4.
no, but what black cards can destroy planeswalkers, artifacts, or enchantments? not really comparable. o ring isn't just a creature removal spell.
Hero of Bladehold can start a lethal clock at an earlier point in the game. Gideon Jura is an incredibly fast clock that also offers board control (arguably better board control then Grave Titan). Sun Titan is no slouch either and looks awfully good when he's bringing back Phantasmal Images. but this is an almost irrelevant category to compare because awesome finishers are widely available in every color (even colorless, Wurmcoil Engine). it really is the efficiency of the rest of the deck that matters more.
it can with a minor black mana splash, which is doable, or forbidden alchemy can be played without the intention of flashing it back for 6B. its totally reasonable to flash it back with Snapcaster Mage, or just not try and cast it again. or, you can just build your deck to use different card drawing tools, which are also readily available. Think Twice and Divination both work.
yes, easily, if you have Timely Reinforcements to gain the life back. UW is probably a much better shell for Dismember then UB specifically for this reason.
The OP is correct: the synergy between Snapcaster, TT and Alchemy is just waiting to be abused. We have Mana Leak, Dissipate and Cancel, not all twelve of which are necessary thanks to Snapcaster. White still has the best creature sweep and lots of general-purpose removal. The overall strategy has been around since the game began and it's not going away.
The biggest weakness of aggro is the same one it's always had: if it doesn't kill you in the 5 or 6 turns it wants to and then gets reset, it's dead in the water. The key to winning with permission is to survive that long. Can UW do it now? Sure, but it has to be smart. Timely Reinforcements main deck is a requirement right now, as are at least 3 Day of Judgment. You don't even need Constipated Sphinx. Gideon works as both offense and defense.
Another thing UW has going for it is that it has a lot of anti-red and anti-TS answers in the sideboard, while those decks have relatively fewer answers for hardcore control. Grand Abolisher and Shrine of Loyal Legions are a couple, and even those can be removed or shut down without a lot of fuss.
So yes, draw-go is out there, waiting. It's not an easy deck to play, nor is it cheap. With all respect to the Indy players, SCGO isn't exactly a PT. Aggro is very good right now, but where there's aggro, permission isn't far behind.
Geist with wings is scary, yes, but don't forget that Phantasmal Image also kills it. White can also just remove the wings, blue can bounce them, etc. Sure wish we had Disenchant back.
I placed 31st with draw go, you can find my list on SCG. I received a game loss when I had a match won on board, causing me to lose the match. I should have gone 8-1-1 which was the cut for top 8, although I probably would have finished 9th or 10th on breakers. The only real match I lost was to the mono green Dungrove Elder deck because 8 hexproof guys are hard to deal with, especially when some of them cannot be countered.
EDIT: BTW, I did crush all the other aggro decks I played, which included GW Humans, WU Humans, and the UW Blade decks. Was not remotely hard.
The problem is with everything you just listed is that they are not draw go cards, since they are all sorcery speed. White may have good tap-out control cards, but the lack of instant speed removal is why black is better for draw-go. Dismember is just one removal spell. Most u/b decks run dismember and doom blade. I think also people forget that oblivion ring actually has a drawback and it can be answered. As for Black suns Zenith versus Doj, yes, playing BSZ for 1 is actually relevant vs temperered steel/rdws. Sometimes they get a tempered steel though, but for the most part this only happens if they have mox down and they are on the play. U/B does have mana leak after all. And sometimes, they just won't have tempered steel in hand. In that case, I doubt your doj would be doing you any good either, since you can't play it earlier than turn 4. And don't quote sphere of the suns to me, no good draw-go player would spend their second turn tapping out. Sure BSZ looks bad if you only mention bad scenarios, but for me, I never pay more than 4-5 mana for it.
Sun Titan and Hero are answered by a single removal spell, something you cannot say about grave titan. Gideon is the same. Your whole argument about black vs white seems to putting u/w in the best scenarios and u/b in the worst.
The notion that the deck can only have instants in it is just complete garbage. Of the two control decks, UW is better. Pure and simple. What white brings to the table more than supercedes what black does.
Anyhow I have tested both black and white paired with blue (since draw-go is a primarily blue deck with a color splashed for removal) and no, white is not superior. Oblivion ring is not better than doom blade. Its a great card, but it has no synergy with snapcaster mage, and its a 3 mana sorcery speed card. And it can be answered by bounce spells, ratchet bomb, or just an enchantment removal spell. Grave titan is much more durable than white win conditions, since it takes a sweeper to completely remove him. White does have Doj, but thats the only reason I would actually run white. IF your playing u/w with gideon, timely reinforcements, and oblivion ring, its not draw-go.
Anyhow, people have had some success with draw-go, and alot of people are including it in their gauntlets now. You can say u/w is better all you want, but anyone who has actually tested u/b knows there is good reason to play black.
do you honestly think that people are going to take a boring deck like draw-go to the first tournament of the season? Honestly most people won't touch a true control deck because of fear or something. Permission was so good last year and yet it saw almost no results because every one has got so infatuated with aggressive decks that even most control-esque builds are just aggro with a few counterspells.
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And Oblivion Ring is absolutely superior to Doom Blade. It can actually kill a Grave Titan(them having a couple of tokens is almost never relevant). And it can get rid of Wurmcoil Engine. It's somewhat of a hard comparison to make, to be fair, since they do somewhat different things.
Along with, you know, actually being able to remove non-creature spells. I don't see how UB beats RDW ever. They resolve a single shrine and you really can't win.
Also, you guys are too stuck on the semantics of the term 'draw go', when the argument is pretty clearly actually about UW Control vs. UB Control.
Nobody wants to play control at the start of a new format since most people want to play something they are familar with and/or was successful before rotation.
Also alot of people are scared to play control decks since they require a lot of testing prior to a major tournament and knowing exactly how your deck plays out against all the different matchups can be crucial to it's success at least imo.
Anyway back to UB vs UW I think they are both solid decks and viable in the current format since they both have their strengths and weaknesses I'm not really sure why people are comparing which color is better at the moment since I think both decks have a good shot at being competitive.
I imagine after states that the meta will switch back to more Control/Midrange strategies because that is usually what tends to happen at the beginning of a format an aggressive strategy takes down the first tournament SCG Indy because not many people were prepared for the deck which is normally the case with RDW anyway.
Then at the next major tournament people are ready for it and the control players will be out in force with all the hate needed to beat the aggressive strategies.